Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDger on January 02, 2007, 08:19:19 AM
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This subject was probably well discussed already during the last changeover, but the Hurry-C used to have an eny of 25 (or was it 35) and now it is 10.
Seems to me bit too low, as it doesn't seem to be a plane on par with a niki, typh, etc. (perhaps I am wrong, or maybe it was remodelled as well)...and that is quite a jump in rating as well.
The plane turns very well, however it is slow as a slug and doesn't have much cannon (by way of ammo amount, not #'s of)
Anyway, just my thought, maybe some expert opinions see it different.
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Combine the turning ability of the Hurri-C with its 360 rnds of 20 mm Hispano ammo and you have one deadly aircraft, when flown by a seasoned vet.
I'm astonished that it's perk free in the EW arena.
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I'm astonished that it's perk free in the EW arena
and of course the opinion which takes it completely the other direction...perk it too?
I am not disputing it's a good airplane, and I used to love to fly it under capped conditions. U'll never chase anyone down in it though, nor will you catch up with anyone after loosing u'r E. Niki flies faster, has more 20mm, turns as well if not better, climbs better...same eny?
Perk it? No, eny of 15-20, yes.
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Originally posted by Max
Combine the turning ability of the Hurri-C with its 360 rnds of 20 mm Hispano ammo and you have one deadly aircraft, when flown by a seasoned vet.
I'm astonished that it's perk free in the EW arena.
that's why every lazy skill-less backwards baby boy flies it. the HurriIIc was a ground attack platform by late 1941 and by all accounts extremely easy to kill. hardly a reflection of what is represented in AH where the HurriIIc is competetive even with 1945 aircraft models.
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Hurricane acts completely opposite to what finnish pilots reported during WW2. They called hurricane a clumsy plane prone to fire that was best defeated by going into turnfight and putting a couple of mg rounds in mid fuselage. This almost instantly lit the plane up, effectively burning the pilot who sat on the fuel tank.
AH hurricane turns on a dime and nobody would want to turnfight it. It's not specially prone to fire either.
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Originally posted by storch
that's why every lazy skill-less backwards baby boy flies it. the HurriIIc was a ground attack platform by late 1941 and by all accounts extremely easy to kill. hardly a reflection of what is represented in AH where the HurriIIc is competetive even with 1945 aircraft models.
Well, if all you do is shoot people in the face--anybody can point the nose and pull the trigger. Its just like a Niki, only slower. And since it only flies 80 mph, you'll never get too far away from the rearm pad, that is, if you survive your jousting...
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true mersu I find it's impervious to almost all damage. I'm not opposed to it remaining that way as it gives the noobs something to survive in. I get a chuckle out of the "veteran" players who won't wean themselves from RR play though.
if AH modelling were truly reflective of aircraft performance then the british would have continued developement of the hurricane and cancelled the spitfire program. the same could be said of the 110, another model with blatant less than accurate representation in the game. the 110 however does have a weak tail and is prone to stalling. the hurri takes tons of hits before any damage registers.
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Originally posted by storch
that's why every lazy skill-less backwards baby boy flies it.
Storch, my guess is that Santa forgot to bring you a gift certificate to Dale Carnegie Seminars this year :D
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same could be said of the 110, another model with blatant less than accurate representation in the game.
This seems true as well, although the 110 could be it's own thread. From what I understand, the 110 was vastly outclassed in the battle of britain and were shot down in droves. They were eventually relagated to night fighter intercept.
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Originally posted by Max
Storch, my guess is that Santa forgot to bring you a gift certificate to Dale Carnegie Seminars this year :D
you may find this hard to believe but I taught courses of that type to hundreds of people. I no longer care to win friends though I have found alternative methods of influencing people. :D
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In the LW I think the ENY is a little low, 20 ish or more would be more realistic. The Hurr is an easy plane to defeat given some simple tactics, just don't slow down.
That being said I fly it frequently and find I am more successful in it than a Spitxteen. I've been in out numbered situations an have come out on top.
It's a plane that forces you to fight, you certainly won't outrun anything with the IIc. You have to shoot the enemy down to exit a fight.
You get few assists flying this plane.
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For some mysterious reasons Hurr2 ENJ higher in MW than LW :rolleyes:
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The one thing you can say about it is it teaches air-gunnery. You wont get far with spray-and-pray - those 20mm disappear pretty quick.
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The one thing you can say about it is it teaches air-gunnery. You wont get far with spray-and-pray - those 20mm disappear pretty quick
Not sure I agree with that, besides being off subject. 20mm hit from farther than .50 or .303. 20mm are the spray and pray round of choice.
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did anyone in here give a expert oppion about the eny set for hurri :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Hurricane acts completely opposite to what finnish pilots reported during WW2. They called hurricane a clumsy plane prone to fire that was best defeated by going into turnfight and putting a couple of mg rounds in mid fuselage. This almost instantly lit the plane up, effectively burning the pilot who sat on the fuel tank.
AH hurricane turns on a dime and nobody would want to turnfight it. It's not specially prone to fire either.
Funny to see you post something like this . . . US pilots thought the Brewster was clumsy etc., but that was opposite of Finnish experience too.
Goes to show how much/little the perception of performance should matter versus the hard data HTC relies on.
For Storch's point about the 110, it could be argued (and has been endlessly on these boards) that it was the tactics used that hurt the plane's historic performance and record rather than any shortcoming of the plane itself.
Also, the hurri didn't develop further because the days of wood and fabric were coming to a close, not because it was a poor plane for 1940.
Bottom line, I would think HTC is fairly accurate with their modeling, and that it is pilot skill and tactics that make historic record and AH perceptions diverge.
That still doesn't explain the 10 ENY for the IIC in Late War . . . I agree that is too low if it warrants only a 15 in Mid War.
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Originally posted by DREDger
The one thing you can say about it is it teaches air-gunnery. You wont get far with spray-and-pray - those 20mm disappear pretty quick
Not sure I agree with that, besides being off subject. 20mm hit from farther than .50 or .303. 20mm are the spray and pray round of choice.
In a tiff maybe but in a hurri? Nope to short a clip.
Bronk
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The Hurricane IIc should be a perk plane in the Early War arena. If you visit EW you might notice that over half of the fighter kills landed are by those flying them. It should, however, be a very inexpensive perk plane in EW, of perhaps no more than 5 or fewer points required (depending on the balance factor).
In the LW arenas the Hurricane IIc is outclassed. This is especially true now that more and more players are migrating away from low altitude "dog fights" and towards high altitude diving combined with head on tactics. In the LW arenas I would consider the Hurricane IIc at an ENY of 20 or higher appropriate.
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btw, why LW enj was changed at all? It looks strange now. F4F has enj 20 like FM or 109K4 :huh Spit5 has 25 :rolleyes: F4U-1D enj was lowered to 15 - i cannt get 20 perks per sortie any more :cry
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Seems to me that several of the eny's are abitrary...had recent thread on "N" jug for same thing, except it was dropped to a '5', which puts it in the hangar if ANY eny kicks in...however weak a H2C seems to be, a LOT of people fly them, even in LW-- can anyone post K/D from stats page? I havent been able to pull up that page in months. (And does ANYone know what ENY is based upon? Have been several theories of late, none of which have been commented on by HT & Co.)
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Originally posted by bj229r
-- can anyone post K/D from stats page? I havent been able to pull up that page in months.
For the last 4 tours 80-83, the tally is
Tour 80 (before arena changes?) 32629 kills / 22036 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.48
Tour 81 21419 kills / 14502 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.47
Tour 82 20321 kills / 12616 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.61
Tour 83 20001 kills / 11843 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.68
Obviously, these are against all types in all arenas, so doesn't account for use in EWA, MWA, LWA.
So as a basis for comparison, over the same tours, Hurri II vs. Spit 16 and Hurri II vs. P-51D
Tour 80: Hurri enjoys a 1.42 and 1.33 k/d ratio over Spit16 and PonyD respectively
Tour 81: Hurri enjoys a 1.35 and 1.21 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Tour 82: Hurri enjoys a 1.49 and 1.38 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Tour 83: Hurri enjoys a 1.47 and 1.33 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Theoretically by looking at these stats, the Hurri II should have an ENY that is lower or equal to either plane in the Late War arenas, as it has demonstrated itself to be a KILLER over two of the hottest planes in the LW set. Again, I contend that the quick turning coupled with the cannon is the overriding factor, as the Hurri can shoot people in the face quicker than almost anything. I fly the Jug a lot, and typically I won't even bother with Hurri's because you get on their 6 o'clock with 500 mph indicated, and they just turn into you at 2.0-3.0k out and start blazing with the cannon. I'll typically zoom up away from the fire-breathers and look for easier prey, or at least something that gives me an opportunity to avoid jousting.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
For the last 4 tours 80-83, the tally is
Tour 80 (before arena changes?) 32629 kills / 22036 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.48
Tour 81 21419 kills / 14502 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.47
Tour 82 20321 kills / 12616 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.61
Tour 83 20001 kills / 11843 deaths, k/d ratio: 1.68
Obviously, these are against all types in all arenas, so doesn't account for use in EWA, MWA, LWA.
So as a basis for comparison, over the same tours, Hurri II vs. Spit 16 and Hurri II vs. P-51D
Tour 80: Hurri enjoys a 1.42 and 1.33 k/d ratio over Spit16 and PonyD respectively
Tour 81: Hurri enjoys a 1.35 and 1.21 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Tour 82: Hurri enjoys a 1.49 and 1.38 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Tour 83: Hurri enjoys a 1.47 and 1.33 k/d ratio over Spit and Pony respectively
Theoretically by looking at these stats, the Hurri II should have an ENY that is lower or equal to either plane in the Late War arenas, as it has demonstrated itself to be a KILLER over two of the hottest planes in the LW set. Again, I contend that the quick turning coupled with the cannon is the overriding factor, as the Hurri can shoot people in the face quicker than almost anything. I fly the Jug a lot, and typically I won't even bother with Hurri's because you get on their 6 o'clock with 500 mph indicated, and they just turn into you at 2.0-3.0k out and start blazing with the cannon. I'll typically zoom up away from the fire-breathers and look for easier prey, or at least something that gives me an opportunity to avoid jousting.
wow. could I trouble you to see how they fare against the La7 and the 109s? you are smart to avoid them, I on the other hand am dumb. I hunt the bassturds, and then taunt them irrespective of the outcome which is usually me lawn darting. if the almost truth be told it's usually the result of 10,000 BoPs congregating in woobieness and doing the only thing they can which is gang on singles on the way to capture another undefended back base.
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Originally posted by storch
wow. could I trouble you to see how they fare against the La7 and the 109s? you are smart to avoid them, I on the other hand am dumb. I hunt the bassturds, and then taunt them irrespective of the outcome which is usually me lawn darting. if the almost truth be told it's usually the result of 10,000 BoPs congregating in woobieness and doing the only thing they can which is gang on singles on the way to capture another undefended back base.
I may be able to post that later tonight after I get back from work. Need to go make my $15 for the month right now...I'll even see if I can't make some K/D ratio comparisons with other aircraft.
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In BoB the hurri accounted for 5 out of every 7 kills........................ ................
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I find it odd that people will bash someone for flying the Hurri2-c...it's slow as a sloth. So it can turn...so it has a few 20mm, the Nik has all that & more, the spits are too uber, the nik is too uber, the typhie is too uber,...come on. I have now heard every plane set in AH bashed by someone except the Hurri-1 & that's only because Shatzi hasn't shot you down in one yet.
Fly what you like, like what you fly.
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I think that the reason that the cannon model costs what it does is because it was not nearly as widely used historically as it is in the game.
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Hurricane mk1 and 2 c can be deadly IF you fly them properly, i find the hurri1 an especially fun ride, and its nota death trap either, i have landed plenty of kills in these 2 birds over my time in the game.
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I won't even bother with Hurri's because you get on their 6 o'clock with 500 mph indicated, and they just turn into you at 2.0-3.0k out and start blazing with the cannon. I'll typically zoom up away from the fire-breathers and look for easier prey, or at least something that gives me an opportunity to avoid jousting.
I do not mean to offend you but I tend to be direct. Your tactics against the hurri are wrong. Properly dealt with a hurri is a target you can attack with impunity. That is, with little or no risk of exposing yourself to its deadly hispanos.
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Originally posted by Bucky73
In BoB the hurri accounted for 5 out of every 7 kills........................ ................
Because they were tasked to go after the bombers while Spitfires tangled with the fighters. Purely against a fighter vs. fighter standpoint the margin was less than that for the Hurricane against the Bf109.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I do not mean to offend you but I tend to be direct. Your tactics against the hurri are wrong. Properly dealt with a hurri is a target you can attack with impunity. That is, with little or no risk of exposing yourself to its deadly hispanos.
I'm partial to the D11. By all means, enlighten me...
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I find it odd that people will bash someone for flying the Hurri2-c...it's slow as a sloth.
I respect what you're saying completely. I don't think its uber. Personally, I think its a dog. But, what I am saying is that a lot of folks that fly Hurri II's merely hover and use them as flying flak guns. Doesn't matter what type of shot they have, they'll take it, and let the hard hitting (and accurate) cannon do their work for them. I'm not complaining, just pointing out that take away those guns, and the result is the hangar queen that is the Hurri I (at least in the LW MA).
But seeing how those kill numbers stack up, I say a 10 ENY is certainly understandable, and probably gracious.
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Originally posted by storch
wow. could I trouble you to see how they fare against the La7 and the 109s?
As solicited:
Hurri II vs. LA-7
Tour 80, Hurri enjoys a 1.06 K/D
Tour 81, Hurri enjoys a 1.02 K/D
Tour 82, Hurri enjoys a 1.15 K/D
Tour 83, Hurri enjoys a 1.23 K/D
I didn't crunch all the numbers for all four tours as above for the LA-7, but:
Over the course of these same four tours:
The Hurri II:
Enjoys a higher K/D than all P-38's, P-47's, 109F's, among others
Is a wash with 109G14, 109K4 (both aircraft had higher K/D than the Hurri II for two tours, and the Hurri II had higher K/D in the other two tours)
Furthermore, comparing it against 4X20mm planes:
Hurri II has better K/D over these four tours than NiK1, Mossie
Hurri II has worse K/D than F4U-1C, Tempest, and (only slightly Typhoon)
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Originally posted by Stoney74
As solicited:
Hurri II vs. LA-7
Tour 80, Hurri enjoys a 1.06 K/D
Tour 81, Hurri enjoys a 1.02 K/D
Tour 82, Hurri enjoys a 1.15 K/D
Tour 83, Hurri enjoys a 1.23 K/D
I didn't crunch all the numbers for all four tours as above for the LA-7, but:
Over the course of these same four tours:
The Hurri II:
Enjoys a higher K/D than all P-38's, P-47's, 109F's, among others
Is a wash with 109G14, 109K4 (both aircraft had higher K/D than the Hurri II for two tours, and the Hurri II had higher K/D in the other two tours)
Furthermore, comparing it against 4X20mm planes:
Hurri II has better K/D over these four tours than NiK1, Mossie
Hurri II has worse K/D than F4U-1C, Tempest, and (only slightly Typhoon)
thank you. amazing stuff, that.
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Let's compare the various ENY:
EW: IIC=10 which is equal to the Spit V
It's higher than the Spit IX, P38G, and 190A5
It's 1/2 the ENY of a Zeke
MW: IIC=15 which is equal to the F6F, P38J and Seafire
It's higher than the Spit VIII, Typhoon, Bf110G2, LA5 and P51B
It's lower than the Spit V and IX, Yak9 and Zeke
LW: IIC=10 which is equal to the Bf110G2, Sp VIII and Typhoon
It's greater than the F4U-1C, F4U-4, LA7, Niki, P47N, Spit XIV/XVI, Tempest, and P51D
It's lower than the Ki84, Zeke, all 109's and Spit IX
I'd say that overall the ENY's aren't unreasonable but there could be some fine tuning. A Bf-110G2 doesn't stand a chance except in a HO and I don't understand it going from a lower ENY in MW to an equal ENY in LW, it should be higher in all the arenas. The Zeke is the only one that can realistically out turn the IIC and it's faster so I'd say the Zeke, purely from a threat perspective, should have a lower ENY. It probably doesn't since it's pretty fragile. All the Spits I listed have 20mm plus speed and maneuverability, don't really see a big difference when it comes to fighting the Hurri with any of them except a Spit I. Don't know why the Typhoon goes from lower ENY in MW to equal in LW. Every other plane listed has both a speed and climb advantage if I remember all the numbers. This, in the majority of cases allows them to chose a fight, unlike the Hurri which usually has to take what he gets.
Overall, I'd say the IIC has three things going for it, the guns, the turn and it's toughness. I can't vouch for the Hurri's RL toughness, but's it's definently a tough old bird in AH. On the down side it has lousy e retention, B&Z in it is more of a B&zzzzz, and the great cannons are offset somewhat by the limited ammo. As has been mentioned it can't run away from anything except maybe an M8.
I agree that there are many more IIC's flying than in the old MA. I remember when a IIC was a very rare plane to come across which is one of the reasons I sort of latched onto it. It was ugly, slow and no one loved it but with some experience it's like sex with a 40 year-old divorcee, she'll do things that'll water your eyes and can be a cast iron b***h if you cross her.
With the new areans, predominently the EW, there do appear to be quite a number of guys who don't know how to get the lovin' out of her and seem to up it just for the HOs. Given the performance and cannons of the airplanes in EW with a lower ENY I don't see the beef other than it'll take some time for people to really learn the plane for anything except a HO but then that's not much different than the 110, 190 and Mossie. It seems to me that I see far more HO attempts by 190's than by IICs but that's just my impression, I've never counted so could be wrong. I can't tell you how often I've been jumped as a single by four or five 190's, 109s, P51s, etc., only to be accused of HOing as I twist and turn on the deck avoiding their B&Z. Under those conditions (quite common in such a slow plane) I'll shoot anyone that gets near my nose, if it ends up being a HO then so be it. Most of my kills actually come from deflections, snapshots, or dead six. Those guys that don't understand what an overshoot is are usually the ones on the receiving end.
Regarding the K/D ratios, it's my experience that the Spits and Pony's (and other "better" planes) die because they don't use good tactics and tend to be overconfident in their abilities. Many of the high/fast flyers get impatient or don't have a real plan against the Hurri, they think they'll just dive in on the slow/low plane, make one pass and then run off and land their kill. That's kinda foolish. Smart tactics, especially when a guy works an altitude/e advantage, are very tough for a Hurri to beat since, as I said before, almost every plane has a speed and climb advantage over it. IMO, the ENY should be based, as well as it can be, on the technical superiority of the aircraft, not on foolish tactics and the ENY appears fairly reasonable.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I respect what you're saying completely. I don't think its uber. Personally, I think its a dog. But, what I am saying is that a lot of folks that fly Hurri II's merely hover and use them as flying flak guns. Doesn't matter what type of shot they have, they'll take it, and let the hard hitting (and accurate) cannon do their work for them. I'm not complaining, just pointing out that take away those guns, and the result is the hangar queen that is the Hurri I (at least in the LW MA).
But seeing how those kill numbers stack up, I say a 10 ENY is certainly understandable, and probably gracious.
Take away turn from a Zeke, guns from an 110, loops from a P38, and speed from LAs, Ponys, 190's etc., etc., and most would be hangar queens. A plane is what it is. The Hurri doesn't so much "hover" as it twists and turns with lots of rudder and flaps pumping up and down all the while wondering how soon he'll run out of ammo and altitude. Trust me, a Hurri pilot is one hard working dude.:aok
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Overall, I'd say the IIC has three things going for it, the guns, the turn and it's toughness.
I'd say given these kill numbers, and the overall poor performance of the Hurri II in general (all those characteristics you mentioned), the Hurri II has FOUR things going for it (in the hands of the typical MA pilot): Cannon #1, Cannon #2, Cannon #3, and Cannon #4.
Under those conditions (quite common in such a slow plane) I'll shoot anyone that gets near my nose, if it ends up being a HO then so be it.
I agree that it is the proper tactic in this case, without a doubt. The only difference is that the quick turn makes this tactic much more likely/successful/available. I have to have a good bit of E to make a quick turn into an enemy to bring my 8X.50cals to bear. Hurri doesn't suffer from this.
Regarding the K/D ratios, it's my experience that the Spits and Pony's (and other "better" planes) die because they don't use good tactics and tend to be overconfident in their abilities.
I agree 100% with this. However, in the hands of the typical MA pilot, the Hurri II uses poor tactics as well, its just that the capabilities of the Hurri II in conjunction with that massive firepower provide a crutch for those said pilots.
I've got a lot of respect for someone that can fly a Hurri II competitively in the MA, if they fly the plane clean/well. You could make the argument that even a good pilot in the Hurri, facing an equally good pilot in a higher performance plane, doesn't have a chance without those cannon. I BnZ the Jug like its cool, and I overshoot purposefully all the time. I just love when I overshoot a Hurri II and for those brief seconds I'm in front of the Hurri (usually carrying over 400-500mph IAS) they lay on the trigger trying to get a lucky shot, that will reward them as a result of the damage potential of the cannon. Not saying its not a valid application of the weapon system, but hoping for a lucky shot made at >600 yards is exploitation of the cannon.
I also agree that all planes have advantages that should be exploited, and the firepower and turn radius of the Hurri are the right characteristics to exploit. I'm just saying that the cannon are more advantageous in typical MA combat, as the stats suggest. Obviously considering the differences in performance, the width and breadth of the flight envelope is not as big a factor as the firepower, IMHO. I suppose that you could argue that there are underlying issues in the numbers, but given the almost total domination of the Hurri over most of the non-perked high-performance aircraft, there must be some value to the analysis of the numbers. At least, that's my opinion, and that's all that it is.
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I'd never flown a Hurri until last night. I usually fly a Spit XVI as my primary ride.
I flew one mission in an approximately even odds furball last night and landed 4 kills.
Tried it again tonight, first in a furball favoring our country but with all the friendlies around I could never get to an enemy plane in time to take a shot and finally augered on the deck with no kills and no shots taken. Then I took it out in defense of a VB. I ended up in a one on four and killed 2 but took a pilot wound. Even with that I got one more. More enemys came in and none of them would fight me. They just let me fly off. I ended up ditching due to the pilot wound at a friendly VB (blacked out and clipped a hanger).
First of all, I found that other pilots mostly didn't want to fight me. I had to "sneak" into the fight to get close enough to go for a kill.
Second, I took no HO shots. All of my kills came from pure or lead pursuit.
Third, the few who did try to fight me zoomed in from behind or tried to aquire my six while I was busy with someone else. Regardless of the tactic all I had to do was turn and their attempt was over (except for a 109 or 190 who overshot then died).
Finally, at least two of my kills were against very good turn fighters including at least 1 NIK who I just completely out-turned.
From this short experience I'd say that, while slow, the Hurri IIC can more than hold it's own in the LW main arenas and I was surprised it was a 10 eny and not 5. With some speed I'm sure it would be. It's also very forgiving.
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People can run their mouth (not pointing in names out) but I love the Hurri. Dont see nothing wrong with the plane but speed and ammo load. I am not one to HO in it unless you come spraying 1.5 out. I fly it alot and people try to HO me in 190's mostly, p51's alot and LA's. You say it is a skilless ride I beg to differ. I am not a great pilot but the Hurri does save you from those who dive from way above to try and pick you, funny to let them think they are gonna get a pick kill and then turn at the last minute stall and pop em in the ***. IMHO!
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All a hurri has is turning and guns no more .
If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride your toast.
I'm talking about the pilot who wont get into the turn game.
He's going to get his ac around just fast enough so you have no time to regain E.
Then slowly beat you down to the deck where you can't dive for more E.
Once he has it so you cant use the vertical he will continue till you are mushing through the turn.
At that point best your going to get is a possible snap shot or HO.
I am no uber pilot, but I have been on both ends of the above . So I know what works.
You may now flame away.
Bronk
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I've never met a Hurricane of any model that did not spray me at the merge, except for the one flown by Shatzi. Salute, Shatzi!
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If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride you're toast.
I was beginning to think this was some kind of secret only I knew. Fight Hurris in the vert and they are nearly helpless.
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Originally posted by Bronk
All a hurri has is turning and guns no more .
If you are caught alone against a good E pilot in a late war ride your toast.
I'm talking about the pilot who wont get into the turn game.
He's going to get his ac around just fast enough so you have no time to regain E.
Then slowly beat you down to the deck where you can't dive for more E.
Once he has it so you cant use the vertical he will continue till you are mushing through the turn.
At that point best your going to get is a possible snap shot or HO.
I am no uber pilot, but I have been on both ends of the above . So I know what works.
You may now flame away.
Bronk
that's exactly right. the thing is like all pidgeons most woobie drivers flock. you see them flocking along perfectly happy to be HO'n and dweebing and generally slobbering up the place. a pox on the transgender lot of them.
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Originally posted by storch
that's exactly right. the thing is like all pidgeons most woobie drivers flock. you see them flocking along perfectly happy to be HO'n and dweebing and generally slobbering up the place. a pox on the transgender lot of them.
:rofl
I look at em more like piranhas.
Alone no big threat but in schools... look out they'll chew you up quick if they can catch you.
Bronk
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As someone who flies the Hurri IIC majority of the time and is my preferred a/c let me say first the ENY in the MW and LW is something that needs to be adjusted.
I am suprised that no one has stated that all Hurri IIC are used for is HOing. Before someone says well you HO. Damn right I do. I dont know who is in the other plane and no way in hell am I just going to sit there and let someone HO because it is some rookie GAMER pilot. Then again peoples definition of a HO has to be taken into account as well.
THe Hurri is a solid a/c and easy to fly but hard to master. Anyone can hop in and take off and maybe get a few kills. But to master where you can land kills in a furball and get out of there is difficult to master. Just like with any a/c if it is flown by a seasoned vet who knows his weakness and strengths of his a/c he/she is someone not be take lightly. Yeah the speed is not so great but it has a deadly deflection shot. ASk the 5-6 262 who have fallen to the guns of my Hurri. Enough of that though
The reason the Hurri IIC were given the high ENY is due to there guns alone. People were crying about the plane sets with the 4-20 mike packages. SO HiTech gave them low ENY. It needs to adjusted and if ENY is a reflection of an a.c performace vrs other aircraft within that Arena then in MW and LW they should have an ENY around 15-25 and in EW leave it as it is.
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Originally posted by storch
true mersu I find it's impervious to almost all damage. I'm not opposed to it remaining that way as it gives the noobs something to survive in. I get a chuckle out of the "veteran" players who won't wean themselves from RR play though.
if AH modelling were truly reflective of aircraft performance then the british would have continued developement of the hurricane and cancelled the spitfire program. the same could be said of the 110, another model with blatant less than accurate representation in the game. the 110 however does have a weak tail and is prone to stalling. the hurri takes tons of hits before any damage registers.
The hurri seems to perform where it should near enough, it's the way players who try to kill it that's causing the hurri to seem so good in everywhere including the EWA (which, in my mind the Hurri II doesn't belong in, perked or not). Don't take the hurri nose-nose and don't turn fight it - problem solved.
As for the 110. Maybe. CLmax might be a little high in the C, and I say that only because co-E in an early war setup or BoB setup the C seems to stay with a spit in a turn a little too well. Unless I face them in numbers and they have E or alt on me I don't see them as much of a problem.
It's easy to get lost in the difference between the flight modelling in the game in the way people use the aircraft.
asw
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Originally posted by LTARghst
You say it is a skilless ride I beg to differ.
Listen, I'm not about to say any plane in the plane set is a skilless ride. My point is that a lot of skillless people fly them. There are bad P-51 pilots, bad LA-7 pilots, bad Spit 16 pilots, lots of bad pilots out there.
I simply contend that the 4X20mm make up for poor piloting skills a lot more than speed, and I think the stats support that argument. The Pony's speed, the LA-7's e-generation and firepower, and the Spit 16's everything also make up for poor piloting skills. I'll be the first to admit that I use the Jugs dive ability to make up for my mistakes. My argument is that the firepower coupled with the turn of the Hurri II is a decisive advantage. Speed is not decisive--it can get you into and out of the fight, but it can't kill planes. Maneuverability on its own is not decisive, otherwise the Zero would be a killer. Firepower can kill planes, i.e. its a decisive advantage. I contend that the decisiveness of the cannon coupled with the turning ability in the Hurri II create more kills than the speed of the higher performance planes save them. And again, I reference the score stats as proof of that.
I honestly hope I'm making myself clear. I don't need you to agree with me, just understand my argument. I believe the ENY of the Hurri II is certainly justified in the LW arenas, and from looking at these numbers, it may have earned itself a perk in the EW, IMHO...
Can anyone else see another argument after seeing those numbers posted above???
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I was beginning to think this was some kind of secret only I knew. Fight Hurris in the vert and they are nearly helpless.
Thats what I try to do against such planes (in jug)-- but more often than not, I cant reverse fast enough to get in gun range before they nose down, recover and set up HO shot as I come back down
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Originally posted by bj229r
Thats what I try to do against such planes (in jug)-- but more often than not, I cant reverse fast enough to get in gun range before they nose down, recover and set up HO shot as I come back down
There's something you can do about this that has an added bonus. Learn to reverse your rope before they are forced to nose down. This way all you have to do is roll your now nosed down plane in order to get a gun solution as they make a turn to evade. If you have to pull too hard, pass up on the shot, rinse and repeat... or (my favorite) fake the zoom, rev hard and catch them off guard. Some smarter victims will nose down before they are forced to, guarding their e more closely than the clones. The trick there is almost as easy.....they will nose down at about the same speed each time so you can adjust your timing accordingly after a couple of timing passes. The trick is not to pull too hard for a shot that, if you miss, you will allow the hurri a snipe at your tail. Also, this will burn precious E that you will need to combat the next victim(s) that is coming to help your quarry.
The added bonus to reversing before they nose down is that many pilots will then try to hang on their nose, hoping for a vert HO on your diving plane. Timed correctly, you will have a shot on a plane that is stalled, incapable of evasion, and as stationary an airborne target as you could hope for. :)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
There's something you can do about this that has an added bonus. Learn to reverse your rope before they are forced to nose down. This way all you have to do is roll your now nosed down plane in order to get a gun solution as they make a turn to evade. If you have to pull too hard, pass up on the shot, rinse and repeat... or (my favorite) fake the zoom, rev hard and catch them off guard. Some smarter victims will nose down before they are forced to, guarding their e more closely than the clones. The trick there is almost as easy.....they will nose down at about the same speed each time so you can adjust your timing accordingly after a couple of timing passes. The trick is not to pull too hard for a shot that, if you miss, you will allow the hurri a snipe at your tail. Also, this will burn precious E that you will need to combat the next victim(s) that is coming to help your quarry.
The added bonus to reversing before they nose down is that many pilots will then try to hang on their nose, hoping for a vert HO on your diving plane. Timed correctly, you will have a shot on a plane that is stalled, incapable of evasion, and as stationary an airborne target as you could hope for. :)
Alas, timing...have none..cant dance either:o --
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As long as noone perks the HMk1, ill be fine ;).
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I simply contend that the 4X20mm make up for poor piloting skills a lot more than speed, and I think the stats support that argument.
If one has poor piloting skills, then I don't care if you have 8X20mm on the Hurri ... your not gonna get a chance to point the guns to even fire them. If any plane shoots you down, then you did something wrong and he did something right (either by skill or luck) to get a guns solution ... never-the-less, he got a guns solution on you ... the responsibility for a death is always on the one that died.
The stats are over inflated as far as I am concerned because it is the plane of choice in the EW arena and it is also a plane of choice when defending a base. Outside of that, you really don't see many Hurri IICs flying too far from their base ... at least in LW.
Maneuverability on its own is not decisive, otherwise the Zero would be a killer.
But, if one decides to stick around a play with a Zero ... it is definitely a bone-fide killer ... most choose not to fight with a Zero because it will kill you very quickly ... Zeros are usually killed from a BnZ attack and if the attack fails ... most run like a scalded monkey.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Listen, I'm not about to say any plane in the plane set is a skilless ride. My point is that a lot of skillless people fly them. There are bad P-51 pilots, bad LA-7 pilots, bad Spit 16 pilots, lots of bad pilots out there.
I simply contend that the 4X20mm make up for poor piloting skills a lot more than speed, and I think the stats support that argument. The Pony's speed, the LA-7's e-generation and firepower, and the Spit 16's everything also make up for poor piloting skills. I'll be the first to admit that I use the Jugs dive ability to make up for my mistakes. My argument is that the firepower coupled with the turn of the Hurri II is a decisive advantage. Speed is not decisive--it can get you into and out of the fight, but it can't kill planes. Maneuverability on its own is not decisive, otherwise the Zero would be a killer. Firepower can kill planes, i.e. its a decisive advantage. I contend that the decisiveness of the cannon coupled with the turning ability in the Hurri II create more kills than the speed of the higher performance planes save them. And again, I reference the score stats as proof of that.
I honestly hope I'm making myself clear. I don't need you to agree with me, just understand my argument. I believe the ENY of the Hurri II is certainly justified in the LW arenas, and from looking at these numbers, it may have earned itself a perk in the EW, IMHO...
Can anyone else see another argument after seeing those numbers posted above???
I can't disagree with most of what you said, as I mentioned there seem to be more IIC's upping and a lot of recent complaints about HOs so I went to the numbers which are pretty interesting but I'll cover them later. What I would have a minor disagreement with is the general characterization of certain characteristics as "making up for poor piloting skills". That certainly can be true, hence the 190s that do nothing but HO, extend to 4k, reverse and repeat but also smart pilots learn to capitalize on the strengths and minimize the weakness. A 190 pilot fighting a zeke with an nrg fight vice an angles fight is doing just this. A Hurri pilot who turns his six on you is giving you an "advantage" to entice you to drop in thinking he's an easy target when in fact he's compensating for the speed and e differential. He can't chase you down, he can't climb with you so he needs to get you in the phone booth with him. While the guns themselves are superior to most others they're hardly the end all otherwise we'd all be flying 110's and Mossies. Everything you do in a fight in aimed at getting your guns on him before he gets guns on you and it really doesn't matter what kind of guns he has if you maximize your plane's strengths to get behind him so I don't think the guns alone are decisive, what's decisive is the skill of the pilot and the tactics he choses to use. Any airplane can dominate any other in this game one on one if it's piloted correctly.
Regarding the numbers I mentioned earlier. I looked at total IIC kills/deaths for the past 12 months and also looked at a sample from 18, 24, and 32 months ago.
From Jan06 through Aug06 there were an average of 18,075 Death by Hurricane IIC (DBHIIC) but in Sep06 DBHIIC skyrocketed to 32,629. That's just the single month total. After that the totals dropped again but are still higher than pre-Sep (Oct 21419, Nov 20321, Dec 20001). For all of 2006 the K/D ratio consistently averaged 1.45 to 1, although there is a slight improving trend (1st quarter was 1.4, last quarter was 1.5).
Previous to 2006 I sampled tours 66, 60 and 54 and the average DBHIIC was about 9,000 per tour and the K/D ratio was 1.2.
So, what can we say from this? First, as you can see from the early tour samples there has been a general upward movement to the total DBHIIC over time which would be consistant with AH's increasing player numbers but more importantly the huge surge in DBHIIC in Sep coincides with the new arena setup. The first month there were very large numbers playing EW and MW and the sortie rate for Hurri's really took off (no pun intended). Without the "uber" planes in these arenas there are less cannon equipped planes and the average speed differential is lower. This makes the plane much more competative when it doesn't have to contend with the hugh MA B&Z crowd. Since then, the numbers of players in those two arenas dropped off dramatically which has resulted in the DBHIIC again decreasing but the numbers haven't gone back to pre-Sep levels. This is probably due to two factors. First, although the total participants in EW and MW has dropped quite a bit the IIC is still seen much more frequently than it was before because the arenas still exist and second, there are probably many who tried it out for the first time and really like it, especially when you're not being B&Zed by some LA7 every 20 seconds. The generally improving trend in K/D ratio is most likely due to the increased competativenes in the EW and, to some degree in the MW in addition to people sticking with the plane once they gave it a real tryout.
Overall, I don't know that the slight increase in K/D ratio merits a perk. I wasn't around when the F4UC came out but there have been several discussions on the boards about it. The C's K/D ratio was significantly higher than the other F4U models at the time and the planes began to dominate in numbers. Anyone still got those before/after comparisons? In any case, if the IIC's K/D ratio hasn't really changed why all the complaints? Probably because the IIC became so prevalent during September that people reacted to it the same way they do to the large numbers of LA7s in the MA. It's not that the IIC became more effective, it's just that there were much greater numbers and a lot of the pilots, being new to the plane, relied on HOs.