Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on January 05, 2007, 10:19:06 PM
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http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html (http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html)
I really am amazed that this isn't on the front page of every paper today.
How bad does it have to get? Do we need another Columbus, NM?
Wab
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Time to install some manned .50 cal gun positions and mow them down the next time they decide to storm american positions
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That's one of the most sensational but confusing "news" accounts I've ever read. Who can figure out what happened from that? Talk about missing pieces.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html (http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html)
I really am amazed that this isn't on the front page of every paper today.
How bad does it have to get? Do we need another Columbus, NM?
Wab
Off topic, I know, and I apologize, but where in Fort Worth do you live Wabbit?
Mark
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"National Guard troops at an observation post near the Mexico border were forced to flee a group of armed people, who later ran into Mexico, authorities said.
The troops, who are not allowed to apprehend illegal border crossers, withdrew safely and no one was injured, said National Guard Sgt. Edward Balaban."
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I hope this is a wakeup call. Having unarmed National Guard troops who are not authorized to make apprehensions manning positions is just asking for trouble.
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Sorry, don't know how my post got bumped to the top. :rolleyes:
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well.. at least they were able to run away without being injured.
I guess that is all any of us can really hope for.
lazs
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I'm only barely in "Foat Wuth". Around the 360/183 area. Just South of DFW.
Wab
Originally posted by Mark Luper
Off topic, I know, and I apologize, but where in Fort Worth do you live Wabbit?
Mark
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Originally posted by lazs2
well.. at least they were able to run away without being injured.
I guess that is all any of us can really hope for.
lazs
No, frankly that pisses me off. Armed Military troops surrender American ground to armed attackers without either drawing or spilling blood? What if that raid had pressed on to a farm or ranch and killed citizens? WTF? Allowing them to attack and pull back unopposed only guarantees they’ll do it again.
Wab
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I understand that apprehending illegal immigrants is not in their job description, but unless things have changed since I retired for the US military five years ago, repelling armed invaders with extreme predjudice most certainly is!:mad: What, were these NG troops not even armed? Given the political climate, I can only assume they were not. Good grief, but I hope the brass (or whomever is running this show on the border) grows a pair and tells our troops to shoot to kill next time this happens. After all...you don't "apprehend" a corpse, only a live suspect.
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Originally posted by Sabre
I understand that apprehending illegal immigrants is not in their job description, but unless things have changed since I retired for the US military five years ago, repelling armed invaders with extreme predjudice most certainly is!:mad: What, were these NG troops not even armed? Given the political climate, I can only assume they were not. Good grief, but I hope the brass (or whomever is running this show on the border) grows a pair and tells our troops to shoot to kill next time this happens. After all...you don't "apprehend" a corpse, only a live suspect.
I may be mistaken but I thought it mentioned they were armed. If unarmed, I apologize for my comment. But if armed, I cannot understand them not resisting. This was not some group of poor Mexicans trying to cross over to find work. This was a armed incursion onto U.S. soil. If their orders prevented them from resisting armed hostile acts then some commander needs to lose some rank.
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
I may be mistaken but I thought it mentioned they were armed. If unarmed, I apologize for my comment. But if armed, I cannot understand them not resisting. This was not some group of poor Mexicans trying to cross over to find work. This was a armed incursion onto U.S. soil. If their orders prevented them from resisting armed hostile acts then some commander needs to lose some rank.
Wab
I would bet they have some sort of ROE before they can shoot. I can imagine that the powers that be are afraid some NG guy will go off and shoot some unarmed civilian so they probably have to get clearance from someone before they can engage anyone or apprehend.
Remember was it last year that mexican kid got shot because someone thought he had a gun and was shooting across the border at people?
It would not be unconcievable they were issued weapons and no ammunition...imagine a 100 Barney Fifes :rolleyes:
Originally posted by AKWabbit
Allowing them to attack and pull back unopposed only guarantees they’ll do it again.
not such a bad idea, maybe next time they'll bring more and then they get caught
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FWIW,
I'm in AZ. right now and that story has little resmblence to the actual footage of a BP rep that was broadcast yesterday for the 5 PM and 6 PM news report.
Per the interview.
Guardsmen did not retreat.
No shots fired
No "attack" was made by either side
The armed uniformed party from Mexico approached towards the Guard observation post then retreated on their own. They didn't have an accurate range of approach yet at the time of the report. There was no indication that even words were exchanged between the groups. The Guardsmen were in contact with BP at the time and BP was responding. The Guardsmen's lawn chairs and ice chest were still in position and in good order as shown in the video of the out post.
You can rest easy. Mexico did NOT invade us. yet.
This is not that unusual a happening along the border.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Good grief, but I hope the brass (or whomever is running this show on the border) grows a pair and tells our troops to shoot to kill next time this happens. After all...you don't "apprehend" a corpse, only a live suspect.
A few years ago when they did have armed US forces on the border to assist the Border Patrol (members of Task Force 20, if I recall the name correctly), a squad of Marines fired on a 17 year old US citizen that was tending to his goats, killing the kid.
ack-ack
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The first account I read said only that when faced with an approaching armed group the National Guard ran away. What the heck?!?
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You're right. It must have been a wedding party.
Everything I'm seeing states the Gaurdsmen abandonded their position. Can you provide me your link to that BP interview? Besides, I'd bet 20% of the BP is in the direct pay of the drug gangs. Weren't they notifying Mexico's goverment of Minuteman positions a few months ago?
From what I read, the BP didn't say that no shots were fired.
"The Border Patrol will not say whether shots were fired."
My guess is that there weren't, Which is my problem. If 20 armed men crossed that border, there should be 20 body bags.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/85705/National_Guard_Overrun_at_US_Mexico_Border
Wab
Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW,
I'm in AZ. right now and that story has little resmblence to the actual footage of a BP rep that was broadcast yesterday for the 5 PM and 6 PM news report.
Per the interview.
Guardsmen did not retreat.
No shots fired
No "attack" was made by either side
The armed uniformed party from Mexico approached towards the Guard observation post then retreated on their own. They didn't have an accurate range of approach yet at the time of the report. There was no indication that even words were exchanged between the groups. The Guardsmen were in contact with BP at the time and BP was responding. The Guardsmen's lawn chairs and ice chest were still in position and in good order as shown in the video of the out post.
You can rest easy. Mexico did NOT invade us. yet.
This is not that unusual a happening along the border.
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Call me crazy but I think the border with Mexico should use the model set forth by the DMZ zone between North and South Korea :)
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According to the natl. news broadcasts the army natl. guard troops stationed at the observation post are armed.....they have no ammunition, but they are armed (lol armed with black clubs that have a handy sling) & that the armed party of unidentified armed individuals stormed the observation post causing the army natl guard troops to flee. No one was injured & it was unclear at this time if any shots were fired or what the nationality of the armed invaders actually was.
Our military forces should never give up ground on our own soil & if the military is stationed on our border (& they should be) they should be locked & loaded. I am 100% against using any military forces to police the citizenry of the United States of America, but that is not their mission when they are stationed on a foreign border to prevent incursions. I think we should have armor & air patrols as well. When those guardsmen were confronted they should have been able to defend themselves & our country with full air, artillery & armored support....maybe it's time to park a carrier battle group off of Mexico's coast.
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Here is a link to the story. I have no idea what you are seeing there, but from an area far closer to the scene it bears little resemblence to the start of this thread.
http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5893881&nav=menu216_3_3
Let me know if the link works, they have a TON of java script trying to run.
I checked the other TV station web sites and they do not show any mention of this incident, curious.
Now do you have a link that can corroborate your claim of 20% of the BP being in the drug gangs employ?
Originally posted by AKWabbit
You're right. It must have been a wedding party.
Everything I'm seeing states the Gaurdsmen abandonded their position. Can you provide me your link to that BP interview? Besides, I'd bet 20% of the BP is in the direct pay of the drug gangs. Weren't they notifying Mexico's goverment of Minuteman positions a few months ago?
From what I read, the BP didn't say that no shots were fired.
"The Border Patrol will not say whether shots were fired."
My guess is that there weren't, Which is my problem. If 20 armed men crossed that border, there should be 20 body bags.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/85705/National_Guard_Overrun_at_US_Mexico_Border
Wab
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freaking dupe thread, sigh
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Originally posted by Brenjen
According to the natl. news broadcasts the army natl. guard troops stationed at the observation post are armed.....they have no ammunition, but they are armed (lol armed with black clubs that have a handy sling) & that the armed party of unidentified armed individuals stormed the observation post causing the army natl guard troops to flee. No one was injured & it was unclear at this time if any shots were fired or what the nationality of the armed invaders actually was.
Our military forces should never give up ground on our own soil & if the military is stationed on our border (& they should be) they should be locked & loaded. I am 100% against using any military forces to police the citizenry of the United States of America, but that is not their mission when they are stationed on a foreign border to prevent incursions. I think we should have armor & air patrols as well. When those guardsmen were confronted they should have been able to defend themselves & our country with full air, artillery & armored support....maybe it's time to park a carrier battle group off of Mexico's coast.
i couldnt possibly agree more.
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Reading the reports and looking at it logically the Guardsmen did the right thing assuming a couple of things.
The observation post, I would assume is not a heavily sandbagged sangar designed to repel waves of infantry and artillery fire. If it was like the one in the VT it's basically soft cover thus useless as protection. The only sensible reaction would be to give up the position and move to a point giving greater cover.
Presumably their ROE was not to engage anyone unless they presented a direct threat. Plus according to the report they were only five strong in an isolated position at night. They are National Guard not Delta Force after all.
So as far as I can see they did the right thing. They followed their ROE, called for reinforcements and retreated to a more secure location.
Nothing wrong with that.
Incidentally, I have to confess to being involved in an armed border incursion myself, not into the USA though but we invaded the UK. When I was a member of the Irish equivalent of the National Guard. We were patrolling in platoon strength in a forest along the border with Northern Ireland when somehow we crossed over quite a long way. Fortunately the mistake was realised and we withdrew. This was during the troubles and if we had come across British security forces it could have been nasty if they had mistaken us for terrorists or vice versa. :eek: However I do like to think we would have given a good account of ourselves in any firefight. There was a rumour of just such a covered up incident, both sides thinking they were fighting the IRA.:rofl
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they should way their black clubs around and then run away it that doesn't work. Wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. If the mexicans demand it the guardsmen should throw down their weapons and gear before they run away.
lazs
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Here's a video link to the news story...will probably have to paste the whole thing due to java code.
http://javascript:open_MediaPlayer('http://www.azcentral.com/phpAPP/multimedia/player.php?path=mms%3A%2F%2Fwms.azcentral.com%2Fkpnx%2Fnews%2F0104guardstormed6pm.wmv','mediaplayer','toolbar=no,scrollbars=no,resizable=no,width=300,height=300')
Grrrr...BBS code is seeing the "colon o" as a smiley!
The video is a border patrol spokesman saying that they and the national guard were forced to retreat when confronted my armed Mexicans on US soil in order to avoid getting anybody hurt. I see no other determination that can be made other than that the border patrol and the national guard are neither.
The video is linked from here too: http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html
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they did the right thing... secure borders are not worth someone getting angry or even hurt over. Besides... how can you trust guardsmen with live ammo anyhow? It's not like they are swat ninjas or anything.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
they did the right thing... secure borders are not worth someone getting angry or even hurt over. Besides... how can you trust guardsmen with live ammo anyhow? It's not like they are swat ninjas or anything.
lazs
My sarcasm detector is pinging.
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having guns pointed at you (even empty ones) is stressful... I am surprised the ACLU has not taken up the cause of these poor immigrants and sued the national guard for pain and suffering.
Running away is not good enough.... they should never have been there to hamper immigration and commerce in the first place.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
having guns pointed at you (even empty ones) is stressful... I am surprised the ACLU has not taken up the cause of these poor immigrants and sued the national guard for pain and suffering.
Running away is not good enough.... they should never have been there to hamper immigration and commerce in the first place.
lazs
Be surprised no longer, the ACLU has most definitely taken up the plight of the illegal immigrant.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/index.html
Didn't take the ACLU long to focus their virtually unlimited resources (your tax dollars) against the Texas city of Farmers Branch.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/discrim/27799prs20061227.html
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We should be lighting up anything that crosses the border outside of an established checkpoint.
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Originally posted by lazs2
having guns pointed at you (even empty ones) is stressful... I am surprised the ACLU has not taken up the cause of these poor immigrants and sued the national guard for pain and suffering.
Intentional infliction of emotional distress... Give it some time.
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"undocumented immigrant" has to be the funniest PC term I have ever heard.
It is like calling what a bank robber does.. an "undocumented withdrawl".
lazs
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You got it, and a drug dealer is merely a misunderstood "undocumented pharmacist" who is only trying to earn a living.
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Snippet....
Originally posted by Maverick
You can rest easy. Mexico did NOT invade us. yet.
With all due respect Mav..and I mean that....
They been invading slowly for a long time.
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Originally posted by RedTop
They been invading slowly for a long time.
they even have a name for it, they call it "the re-conquest".
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Originally posted by john9001
they even have a name for it, they call it "the re-conquest".
They do?
ack-ack
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Si. They call it the "Reconquista".
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Frankly from my home town area, "they" were here first rather than doing something dramatic like "invading" which is more of a military endeavor.
Perhaps I should say "we" instead of "they". :D
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All that matters is what's happening right here, right now. Not 100 or 2 years ago anyway. The border is where it is & this side of it isn't Mexico & it should be defended by force of arms. If that means dead Mexicans so be it. Let us not forget that if the law breaking immigrants can sneak into the U.S. the bomb toting muslims can as well.
On a side note, I saw a heart breaking info-mercial on tv the other day about some poor starving kids in a Mexican community. This off duty U.S. cop goes down there all the time & donates food & medicine etc to them. The thought occurred to me; how many of those unfortunates could Mexico help if they bought food & medicine & upgraded the infrastructure of the town instead of purchasing GPS systems for illegals to use sneaking into the U.S.?
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What happened in Columbus, NM?
I'm getting real tired of people trying to enforce PC-ness. People coming to reside in the United States need to become Americans, not some other nationality living in America with the perks of being a citizen. The immigrants need to show loyalty to their new country and adopt American holidays, morals, and values to be a part of American society. A good example are the Irish immigrants that became accepted as americans 47 years ago (far too long for us to have to wait imo).
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i am less concerned with the differences in culture than i am with rule of law and it's willful disregard.
especially by employers .
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Originally posted by Toad
Si. They call it the "Reconquista".
who does? Please name the Mexican official that has said that along with the article the official is quoted in.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by VermGhost
What happened in Columbus, NM?
Columbus NM. was the raid by Pancho Villa. A bandit group came into town, killed several folks, robbed a bunch and did multiple rapes. They then fled back into Mexico. It prompted the raid by Blackjack Pershing into Mexico to find him. They chased him around a bunch then came home empty handed.
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Originally posted by VermGhost
What happened in Columbus, NM?
http://web.nmsu.edu/~publhist/colhist.htm (http://web.nmsu.edu/~publhist/colhist.htm)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
who does? Please name the Mexican official that has said that along with the article the official is quoted in.
ack-ack
Iran isn't "officially" invading Iraq either but does anyone doubt their aim?
Hi Wabb :)
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We have allowed an entire army to infiltrate over the southern border and a 5th column support system as well. Its time to round them up and ship them by cattle car to the nearest point of the border they crossed.
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Originally posted by lukster
Iran isn't "officially" invading Iraq either but does anyone doubt their aim?
Hi Wabb :)
No offense but you're pretty dumb if you think Mexico wants any US territory back.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
We have allowed an entire army to infiltrate over the southern border and a 5th column support system as well.
ROFLMA@you
ack-ack
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Ack Ack, read this... I will shoot more links over later... you will see.. IN THEIR WORDS what this invasion is about.
http://www.aztlan.net/ (http://www.aztlan.net/)
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
http://www.aztlan.net/ (http://www.aztlan.net/)
Don't think that this movement is just a few radicals and Mexicans either, this movement is sponsored by our own elected officials.
U.S. Congressman Joe Baca in California works for 'Reconquista de Aztlan' along with Mayor Villaraigosa of Los Angeles, U.S. Congressman Chris Cannon of Utah and dozens of members of city councils all accross the southwest.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No offense but you're pretty dumb if you think Mexico wants any US territory back.
ack-ack
Mexicans want the territory, why else why they be coming here by the millions, marching to stay, and running up Mexican flags at US post offices?
So, I'm dumb if I think Mexico would accept Texas or California as a gift? Someone may be dumb here but I don't think it's me.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Ack Ack, read this... I will shoot more links over later... you will see.. IN THEIR WORDS what this invasion is about.
http://www.aztlan.net/ (http://www.aztlan.net/)
LOL! You do realize that these guys are nothing but a bunch of radical nutjobs, right? This group in no way represents the views of the majority Hispanics in this country and does not represent any official views of the Mexican government.
This group is also listed on the Southern Provertly Law Center as a recognized hate group and rightly so. So to use that group as an example is laughable at best.
Nice try though...but how about you post something legitimate?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by lukster
Mexicans want the territory, why else why they be coming here by the millions, marching to stay, and running up Mexican flags at US post offices?
So, I'm dumb if I think Mexico would accept Texas or California as a gift? Someone may be dumb here but I don't think it's me.
Yes, you are dumb if you think Mexico would take Texas or California back.
and the majority of illegal immigrants that come to this country do so for a better life not to reconquer land they don't want.
The only groups that advocate the silly notion of "Aztlan" are the groups like La Voz de Aztlan and college campus groups like Mecha. Again, these groups do not represent the views of the majority of the Hispanics that live in this country and they definitely do not represent the views of the Mexican government.
But then you have already closed your mind to the truth and this has ceased to be an immigration issue in your mind and has been replaced with an "Us vs. Them" rationalization.
ack-ack
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Iron,
I PM'd ya.
Wab
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Ak Ak, you've been snowed sir.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Yes, you are dumb if you think Mexico would take Texas or California back.
and the majority of illegal immigrants that come to this country do so for a better life not to reconquer land they don't want.
The only groups that advocate the silly notion of "Aztlan" are the groups like La Voz de Aztlan and college campus groups like Mecha. Again, these groups do not represent the views of the majority of the Hispanics that live in this country and they definitely do not represent the views of the Mexican government.
But then you have already closed your mind to the truth and this has ceased to be an immigration issue in your mind and has been replaced with an "Us vs. Them" rationalization.
ack-ack
I think you're not seeing the big picture. Mexico is in fact "conquering" the southern United States with it's citizens who violate our borders to work and then send billions of dollars back to Mexico. The us vs them mentality is due in part to the high cost of health care due to the HUGE burden illegals aliens are putting on our health care system. Yes, I resent this.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Iron,
I PM'd ya.
Wab
Haven't received it yet, checked both accounts.
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As developed and rich in resources as both Texas and Kalifornia are, Mexico would have to be "dumb" not to want them.
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Originally posted by lukster
As developed and rich in resources as both Texas and Kalifornia are, Mexico would have to be "dumb" not to want them.
they had them but we took them:D
They passed that immigration bill in Farmers Branch:D :aok
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Ak Ak, you've been snowed sir.
Nope, I'm afraid it is you that have "snowed" or do you just like to wallow in ignorance?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Nope, I'm afraid it is you that have "snowed" or do you just like to wallow in ignorance?
ack-ack
According to a just-published survey conducted by Zogby International, the polling firm found that a majority of Mexicans say the U.S. southwest "rightfully belongs to Mexico," and that Mexican citizens should be able to come into those areas freely, without U.S. permission.
Zogby's poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "the territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." Only 28 percent disagree, and 14 percent are unsure.
A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.
poll (http://www.immigrationcontrol.com/AIC+Zogby_Mexican_Opinion_Poll.doc)
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ack ack.. it is not about immigration at all.
It is about foreigners criminally crossing another nations borders and the criminals who hire them.
lazs
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Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily. Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.
Study indicates:
* The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests – some eight arrests per illegal alien;
* Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses – some 13 offenses per illegal alien;
* 36 percent had been arrested at least five times before
Source (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103)