Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Blagard on January 06, 2007, 09:17:21 PM
-
To often for comfort I get shot down when I think the guy on my six does not have enough lead to be able to hit me. I just wonder how many others think the same.
What I am thinking of is that, if you see the top side of the enemy aircraft in a turn behind you, surely his guns are pointing behind you and certainly not ahead with lead, as to do this your view should be of the enemy underside. The only way a aircraft behind you should be able to hit you is if he is pointing ahead of you or unless his guns are canted upwards with a built in lead - which they are not in Aces High except for gunners poistions.
Now I know the view as an attacking aircraft always seems to look OK, So is my perception of the enemy on my six wrong, or is this something not quite right about the way the game works?
-
You do forget internet lag. What you see is not what he is seeing. He is actually not aiming at you but that "drone" you are towing behind.
-
Originally posted by Lusche
You do forget internet lag. What you see is not what he is seeing. He is actually not aiming at you but that "drone" you are towing behind.
Cheers, its just that I never really thought it was that bad.
You never know, I might just improve a bit if I can get that into my thick skull! - I have as you have correctly pointed out fogotten about it while getting too engrossed in the what should happen in the real thing.
-
It veries slightly with peoples connections too. I have a good eye for what is and is not a shot, but on occation I do get surprised with someone who appearently has a higher than average delay.
-
A- I suspect internet lag is more at fault than anything. An aircraft moving at 300MPH is moving at around 440 feet per second. I have no idea how much time actually passes before two players' computers receive and translate information through the internet, but if it took 1/10th of a second, each plane (assuming a 300 MPH speed) would travel about 44 feet. That could be seen as significant.
"or unless his guns are canted upwards with a built in lead - which they are not in Aces High except for gunners poistions."
B- There may be some merit to the above as well. In effect the guns on an airplane are canted upwards. Three times, even...
Having never sat in an aircraft and fired its guns, I'm unable to tell you how much effect it has, but I know a lot about shooting, and some of the basics of aircraft design and flight.
When a gun fires a bullet, the bullet begins falling the instant it exits the barrel (gravity)(unless fired vertically). In all firearms, this is compensated for by canting the barrel upwards. A rifle sighted in at 200 yards is not shooting flat. The scope (or sights) is/are pointed directly at the target (line of sight) but the barrel is tilted slightly upwards. A gun barrel sighted in at 200 or 300 yards is tilted upward more than a gun sighted in at 50 yards. A gun sighted in at 200 yards will shoot "high" at 100 because of the bullets arched trajectory. Throw a ball to someone across the room. It is impossible to throw it "flat", it flies in an arch, just as a bullet does. (It's a lot harder to see the bullet fly, though).
When you sit in an airplane, guns mounted in the wings are under the pilots eye level (by several feet). If the guns are sighted in at 300 yrds (convergence) the bullet starts out below the pilots line of sight, angled upwards. The bullets hit the target at the convergence (sighted in) distance. Further away than that they will hit low. But before they hit the 300 yrd target, the bullets have actually traveled at an upward angle, in an arched trajectory, and passed above the pilots line of sight, so that as they fall through 300 yrds they are on target. The further below the pilots eye level that the guns are mounted, the more pronounced the angle would be. Picture this from the side, and you'll see there is actually a pretty good angle involved.
Lastly, the wing itself on an airplane is traveling at a positive angle to the airflow. In effect, the wing itself is canted nose-up slightly (forced to do so by the horizontal stabilizer and the elevator). In level flight at high speed, we're not talking about a lot, but as speed lowers, the angle has to increase to counter gravity. In turning maneuvers, the angle is increased too. When the angle increases too far relative to the airflow, the wing stalls. The wing doesn't stall instantaneously, but rather builds as the angle relative to the slipstream builds.
Obviously, convergence settings (sighting in) were handled on the ground with the aircraft stationary. So bullets set for a 300 yard convergence will only hit a target 300 yards away if the plane is level. Pointing the nose up or down alters (flattens) the trajectory, so bullets will still "cross" at 300 yards, but will hit high. It doesn't matter whether the nose is pointed up or down, the bullets will still hit high. You can visualize that by imagining a gun barrel firing straight up, or straight down. The flight path of the bullet is verticle (assuming no wind). No arched trajectory. The arched trajectory is at its maximum when the bullet is fired "level".
Make things more complicated by remembering that even if the nose of the plane is verticle, the gun barrels are now pointed "past" verticle, due to sighting in and wing incidence. Make it even more complicated by throwing in things like a moving firing platform (the airplane in flight), trying to hit a moving target, and throwing G-forces and "non-level" flying etc. into the mix. Tilt the plane 45 degrees left or right (as viewed from the rear), and imagine where the bullets will go. Wow!
Is it any wonder we miss so much, trying to shoot those big ol' planes down??? If only I could get my shooting in AH to be as accurate as with my flintlock rifle!
I don't know how much each of these factors truly affects how we see things in the game. My guess is lag is the thing really to blame, I just thought I'd throw the others in as "food for thought".
MtnMan
-
I've been paying AH several years and I still fall for that occasionaly.
Internet lag and the way AH smoothens the plane movements cause "jerk" movements to be invisible. Some planes are able to pull quite a few degrees with such sudden movements without snap-stalling. The F4U comes to mind and I think typhoon too.
If someone gives a quick pull, fires and unloades, as often happens in tight turn shots, this would be invisible to you. Annoying, but there is no way around it with todays internet.
-
Just as in AW, I subtract a couple hundred yards from stated range for safety's sake
-
Originally posted by bozon
If someone gives a quick pull, fires and unloades, as often happens in tight turn shots, this would be invisible to you. Annoying, but there is no way around it with todays internet.
I always have "how'd they do that?" moments and I figure the above is a major factor. I'm always getting shot in my 6 o'clock/up view as well as getting my tail shot off in my forward/up view.
Aside from the fact that can't hit the broad side of a barn, I know I'm missing opportunites that I just don't see.
wrngway
-
I get those feelings every time I watch my rear view as a 500mph Typhoon 180s within a plane length on my 6, instantly putting himself into firing range without shedding a drop of E after I split-S under him and have already cleared his guns as I start a zoom.
-
saxman, please allow me to explain this situation for those dereft of an understanding of the physics of flight.
imagine that you are flying at 400 mph over a distance of 2000 yrds on a totaly flat and level trajectory.
now imagine that at the start of this 2000yrds there is an enemy typhoon 100 yrds ahead of you traveling at 350mph on the same flat and level trajectory..
now imagine that you continue at these speeds constantly and obviouly you will overtake the typhoon.
imagine that you miss the easy shot you are provided with.
as you overshoot the typhoon there is definitely going to be a moment when you are ahead of the opponent and well within his deadly range.
he shoots you.
now all you have to realise is that the typhoon did not do a '180 turn' to get that possition, he merely avoided your guns and made good of the slim window he had for a guns solution.
your best possible counter aside from getting better at gunnery, is to turn away from the target untill such time that you can use your speed advantage to regain the attacking possition from saftey.
but thats just wussy :p
-
I think you've SERIOUSLY misinterpreted what I'm on about.
I'm flying level or nearly so, ~275-300mph, possibly in a short climb for altitude after a quick buzz through a furball.
I spot a Typhoon somewhere between my 5 and 7 o'clock, 1000-2000ft above me at ~3-4000 yards out closing at very high speed (somewhere between 450-500mph). While not diving at a high angle of attack, he's had a LONG run to build up that speed so his approach isn't particularly steep.
As he pulls within ~1.5k I roll over into a Split S under him, clearing his guns.
At the bottom of my Split S I pull back up into a shallow climbing spiral to try and position for a reversal. However when I look back to pick him up immediately after I start my climb I find the Typhoon is sitting 400 yards off my dead 6, following along my EXACT angle of climb (so no, he's NOT in a vertical zoom after having dropped significantly below me trying to follow) with NO appreciable change in his rate of closure.
So there's a big heavy plane with a TON of airspeed, and a TON of inertia, that not only didn't give up any appreciable energy, (compared to my E state after the split-S) but virtually eliminated ALL of what ground there was between us to begin with.
It's not isolated to the occasional BnZ Typhoon HO 'n' Go runners. This is something I'm seeing consistently from Typhoons/Tempests under the exact same circumstances under the entire range of individual pilot skill, and yet the exact same maneuver works about 80-90% of the time against far more maneuverable aircraft that would out-turn/loop the Typhoon at ANY airspeed.
So like I said, WTF?!
-
What you do is record it and analize what's happening.
-
Originally posted by Saxman
At the bottom of my Split S I pull back up into a shallow climbing spiral to try and position for a reversal. However when I look back to pick him up immediately after I start my climb I find the Typhoon is sitting 400 yards off my dead 6, following along my EXACT angle of climb (so no, he's NOT in a vertical zoom after having dropped significantly below me trying to follow) with NO appreciable change in his rate of closure.
Im thinking that he maybe doesnt follow you at all, but instead goes vertical himself (immel to reverse). his radius would be a lot tighter (and turn quicker) then your SplitS, since youre gaining speed (ie wider radius, higher G) and hes having gods G in his favor. Also, if you go SplitS at 300 mph, you must be fighting blackout... hard to keep an eye on him in that situation.
But only film could really show for sure.
-
you're right saxman, my appologies, i misunderstood.
i thought you were going for the old ' I BnZ him he turns out the way then turns back on my six losing no speed' one again that i get bored of explaining is not a hack but a simple barrel roll.
:o
-
If he flat turned & you essed he would be in a very good position to smoke you when you zoomed back up.
-
The point is he's fighting SIGNIFICANTLY more inertia than I am, in a plane that doesn't turn all that well to begin with.
Schatzi and Woody: When I picked him up again I could see that he had followed my Split S, not flat-turn or pulled into an Immelmann over me (I'm in an F4U, pulled back throttle and kicked out gear to avoid overspeed and blackout in the Split-S).