Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 53gunner on January 06, 2007, 10:47:40 PM
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Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn
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Originally posted by 53gunner
Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn
Real pilots didn't have Server Lag.
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Originally posted by hitech
1. Think of the size that the mirror would be on your screen, Then envision how what you see now looking forward has to be compressed into that small area, and then how small the objects would be,or more precisly how most planes could not be seen.
2. To make a mirror is realy displaying 2 different views at once, hence you almost 1/2 frame rate.
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Originally posted by 53gunner
Hi Im just curious here why don't we get rear view mirrors? I know a lot of the A/C had em
Glenn
I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees. I am not sure a mirror would do much better then a snap 6 OC view and would just eat up frame rate.
Gunner
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It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees.
Then I think we all desperately need an excorsist. :huh
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Another point: look how tiny our cockpit on screen is. Then put a small mirror in/on it like the spitfire had. I think resolution and screen size is not big enough to make it really helpful. And like somebody else said: If you can really see the enemy in that mirror, you are already in very deep dodo...
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Originally posted by Husker
It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?
Do you have your views set? You should only have to arrow around once - set it - and then all is good.
Targetware has mirrors on planes that show moving sky but no planes. So it adds a bit to realism, till you get shot down from behind while lookin at the purdy mirror.
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Originally posted by Old Sport
Targetware has mirrors on planes that show moving sky but no planes. So it adds a bit to realism, till you get shot down from behind while lookin at the purdy mirror.
Hehe, I can imagine the cries on CH200: "WAAAH, was shot by invisible plane, cheaters!!!!" :D
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How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.
How come there is no decrease in frame rate in AH when I switch to external view and pan when I am in a bomber formation with lots of other aircraft around? That pan must be more difficult to do than one single fixed view out of a mirror, no?
Inquiring minds want to know because rear view mirrors would make a GREAT improvement to this game.
As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors. However, if you are unhappy with the 6 view in Aces High, you should try Warbirds. The 6 view there is codawful, and there is no looking around the seat. It's so bad, it drove me out of the game altogether. Well, that and a dozen other inadequacies.
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Originally posted by eh
As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors.
Lock On: Modern Air Combat has working mirrors, as does the lousy IL-2 series.
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Originally posted by Husker
It would allow us to see past that damned seat without having to arrow around it.... not to mention that it is historally accurate. But I also agree, Lag is an issue. Maybe make them options you can turn on and off?
someone doesn't know about F10 (save head position) and using the arrow keys to move back and forth.
if you have the free JS buttons try it.... other than that with all the saved views you can have there are only 2 or 3 planes that really NEED you to move side to side and look "directly" behind
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I think the key to a mirror's success in AH would be a separate view devoted just to looking in the mirror (i.e., not as part of the normal foward view). This gets around both the frame-rate issue and the size issue.
Fortunately, because AH lets us move our heads and save the view, mirrors are less necessary. Still, it might be nice in some planes that have (regardless of head movement) poor rear views.
I feel sorry for the WWIIOL pilots who can neither move their heads nor look in a mirror. That's one the failings of flight in that game.
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I don't know, but we do have necks that pivot 360 degrees. I am not sure a mirror would do much better then a snap 6 OC view and would just eat up frame rate.
How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.
You guys have to understand the mechanics of how the "illusion" of "3D" is done in computers. A reflection in a mirror in the real world is just what it is - a 'reflection', nothing more. It is nothing more than a set of 'images', an optical phenomenon light creates. When you see a mirror it's not a separate world existing inside that mirror - it's not Alice's world in there.
However, in computers it is different. A set of images such as reflection on the surface of a mirror is literally a separate piece of 3D modelled in the game. When a computer depicts a mirror in the screen, it's like a whole new "world" created inside that mirror.
When you sit at your cockpit and look straight back, it's literally just looking back. The system doesn't need to depict a separate, identical, left/right reveresed version of the world behind your plane. However, when you have a mirror, the system must first create the world and the plane behind you (that is actually behind you), and then it has to make another set of the same thing exactly like it, left/right side reveresed, inside your mirror and make it look like a reflective image. The mirror of AW, is a work-around that is essentially nothing but a rear view, and is not an actual mirror.
In other words, if a reflective image is created inside a computer screen, it means everything is portrayed by the double - and that's counting if there's only one plane behind you. If you are being chased by 4 planes, then the system must make two sets of 4 planes, one set behind your actual plane model, and another miniature set depicted inside your mirror.
Now, imagine you are in a P-51 passing by an entire bomber wing with a hundred B-17s behind you - you get the picture. The better and more realistic the mirror is done, the more serious its hit on performance.
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If AH makes a separate, enlarged rear view mirror screen for use, then that's essentially on the same grounds of making a transparent view when you look back(remember European Air War?). It's like cheating. All the disadvantages of being in a plane with bad rear-view is neutralized. There's no way HT is going to have something like that inside this game.
Therefore, if AH ever sees a rear-view mirror in the game, then it is undoubtably going to be accessible only by looking forward-up, where there would be a mirror, it's actual size, actual location, actual shape. And in that mirror, would the "world" behind your plane be recreated, and when that happens, it is going to hit the system performance really really severely. There's no way around it if you want to see realistic mirrors, instead of some ridicukous full-screen "periscope" view.
So becareful for what you wish for.
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Originally posted by eh
How did Air Warrior do it? There was no decrease in FR even in a thick furball when you used the rear view mirror, even in AW3D. If I remember correctly the mirror was in the Forward Up view, and took up at least half your screen if not more.
How come there is no decrease in frame rate in AH when I switch to external view and pan when I am in a bomber formation with lots of other aircraft around? That pan must be more difficult to do than one single fixed view out of a mirror, no?
Inquiring minds want to know because rear view mirrors would make a GREAT improvement to this game.
As far as I know AW was the only flight sim to have mirrors. However, if you are unhappy with the 6 view in Aces High, you should try Warbirds. The 6 view there is codawful, and there is no looking around the seat. It's so bad, it drove me out of the game altogether. Well, that and a dozen other inadequacies.
eh,
I'm pretty sure I was around during your drug years :) and I don't ever remember AW, in any version, having a working rear view mirror and when I hit fwd up on my stick I kinda, well, looked...fwd up. Hmmm, if it happened in the 60's I might not have remembered but AW?
Ren
The Damned
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Originally posted by Kweassa
bunch-o-techno jargon
but he's got it right.
pretty much not possible in today's gaming industry overall, and with AH's view system, why would you need it other than not checking your 6 and having bad SA?
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I want side view mirrors too.
I want mirrors! I want mirrors! :p
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
eh,
I'm pretty sure I was around during your drug years :) and I don't ever remember AW, in any version, having a working rear view mirror and when I hit fwd up on my stick I kinda, well, looked...fwd up. Hmmm, if it happened in the 60's I might not have remembered but AW?
Ren
The Damned
aw3 most definately had the mirrors... spit had the round/oval mirror, corsair had the curved rectangular, I don't remember what the cat had.
while I would like to see mirrors (if they had an option to turn em off) the next best alternative is to hope your enemy is using tracers:D nothing gives away a position quite like a stream of bright pretty colored bullets in a belt full of tracer rounds.
its been a long time but maybee the mirror in AW was the back view?
(there was also a mirror in MONSTER TRUCK MADNESS!!!! BOOHAAA HAAA)
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the more I think about it the more I am leaning to the mirror was just cockpit clutter in normal forward view and then when you hit back view it was still forward view but your focus was centered and zoomed on the rearview mirror and at that poin it was functional.
dont mess with my head I am sure I remember it! and the older I get, the better I was!
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i know that US navy fighters has mirrors. Air fleet defender had mirrors. even BoB on the C64 had mirrors. and i'm sure that Flanker 2 has mirrors, F16 falcon series has mirrors too. Janes IAF has mirrors. wings over........Shall give more examples?
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...I still want it! Make the look up (at the mirror) an automatic zoom function which will negate a lot of the two images issue and increase the size of any image shown in the mirror,
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AW had a mirror view, not working mirrors. When you used the rear snap view, it was reversed, like looking in a mirror.
Gunner
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I want the big trailer mirrors with electronic adjustment from inside & some curb feelers.
Seriously though, I'm sure there is a way to put the mirror in without ruining the frame rate but I bet it would be hard to code so that it actually gives an accurate representation of what is going on behind you. It would probably need to be placed so that you had to move your view to look at it & in that case, you could just look behind you with the same motion on the stick.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Seriously though, I'm sure there is a way to put the mirror in without ruining the frame rate but I bet it would be hard to code so that it actually gives an accurate representation of what is going on behind you.
I think you got that backwards (Reference the quote from the Master Couder). If they correctly represented the mirrors, I doubt it would do much good seeing anything except an aircrafts prop chewing on you tail. It might make a good makeup mirror?? :)
Gunner
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I don't think I have it backwards at all. If they modeled the mirror so it was in a frame by itself it's not going to effect the frame rate at all, think about it. If they did that so you would have to use your view hat to look up at it you could just as easily look behind you.
My saying I thought it would be difficult to code was referring to getting the image reversed & the distance accurately represented, not the position of the mirror stuck on the windscreen in your forward view.
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The mirror doesnt have to be placed on the screen at all. It could be displayed on its own when pressing a key.
The main reason i would want to see it implemented is so that I could sneak up on Betty while she is applying makeup to her cartoon character and blow her out of the sky. :aok
Peru
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Originally posted by Brenjen
...If they did that so you would have to use your view hat to look up at it you could just as easily look behind you.
Well then whats the point? Just look behind you.
Oh and as far as i'm aware, creating a mirror doesnt involve creating a double of the whole world. The mirror just acts like another camera displaying the same world from another angle. There is still only one 'copy' of an object and framerate is only affected when that object is in view. You could have a thousand planes right behind you but out of your field of view and your framerate would not be affected (though your processor / internet connection could be going haywire to cope with all the information so you might get warping etc). It only when objects get drawn to the screen that your framerate suffers.
But meanwhile i agree with the 'mirror would be too small to be usefull' argument.
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Note the quote in the third post by Murdr in this thread.
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ok ...then how about a cupholder?:D
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The mirror doesnt have to be placed on the screen at all. It could be displayed on its own when pressing a key.
I'm seriously against this.
If there is a mirror which would be used as a means to look straight back in the game, then it should be implemented with all its disadvantages. The small size, the shakes and blurs, and the very teeney tiny bit of detail depicted which just might allow a pilot to catch glimpse of something behind him.
Otherwise if a separate 'mirror view' will put up a screen which lets you see everything behind your 6 in full-size, sort of like how EAW used to, then we might as well ask HT for transparent cockpits too.
Personally, I'd like to see mirrors in the game as well, but if we're not gonna have them the right way, then we're better off not having them at all.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
eh,
I'm pretty sure I was around during your drug years :) and I don't ever remember AW, in any version, having a working rear view mirror and when I hit fwd up on my stick I kinda, well, looked...fwd up. Hmmm, if it happened in the 60's I might not have remembered but AW?
Ren
The Damned
Ren, your drug years were obviously better than mine :aok
AW had the mirrors.
As far as the rest of the arguments go, I have heard the jiggly mirror size and other arguments before, and they don't wash. If reality is the issue, then we should get rid of a couple of views that we are all used to in the game, such as pan, zoom, and icons. Did a real bomber pilot in the real war have an external pan view? Did a real fighter pilot have an external pan view when all of his wheels were on the runway? Was there a zoom view for any real pilot? Did aircraft come with identifier icons together with distance counters? Were enemy planes identifiable by the colours of their icons? Nope.
Aces High is a game through and through, and having a mirror view which looks down the rear of your fuselage (just as they did in RL) would be a real asset to the game, just as are all of the other non-real features that are already loaded into Aces High.
If Air Warrior could do it ten years ago, surely all of the expertise associated with this thoroughbred called Aces High could do it as well, if not better!
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First of all, all versions of AW had mirriors starting with AWI but, the terrains and the plane graphics were no where near as complex as those in AH thus the frame impacts were minimal.
I also play auto racing games (less and less) which have mirrors in and/or outside the cars. The mirrors themselves have a totally independent set of graphics settings in order to lessen impact on frame rates including things like how many cars are displayed. If all mirror settings are maxed the frame impacts are enormous, therefore, mirrors are generally set to the lowest settings possible to still be acceptable while forward views are maxed as to settings.
I think what we have now is the best possible scenario in providing rearward views while not adversly affecting frame rates although it doesn't allow you to simply glance up at a mirror while retaining your forward view.
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another thread where ren owns himself :)
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Actually, the mirrors on the F4U-1A/C/D would be quite useful, as there's three altogether: One across the top and one on each side. The side mirrors especially would be handy for those blind spots in the bubble-top Hogs you just can't adjust the seat around.
I agree with setting it as an individual preference option. If you want it, use it. If not, turn it off.
Since detail isn't an issue, the lowest-detailed wireframes can be all the mirror displays regardless of range. It'd be there for a quick check without having to change views, so even just a plain ol' dot with a con on it could do the job without eating up the frame rate.
The same case can be done for terrain: Minimal details only. Low-res tiles, minimal detailed wire frames, or perhaps don't show things like trees, buildings, GVs (if you're in an plane), etc in the mirrors at all.
This combined with scalable view ranges or details could help ease the performance burden.
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Lock on has this.
The problem that most of us encountered was that u needed a powerful comp and video card to see clearly behind you.If you didnt have this your frame rate dropped so drastically it just wasnt worth it.
Even with a top notch system you encountered a stutter effect.
It was good to see contrails and missile trails but these were large static visuals easily identified.
Forget about seeing a Mig-29 on your six.It just doesnt work as well as you would think.
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There was an interview kicking around here with a real spit pilot. He said mirrors were a waste of time. First if you saw something in it then it was already too late; Second was that they vibrated to much to give any soft of clear view.
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Originally posted by Hitech
2. To make a mirror is realy displaying 2 different views at once, hence you almost 1/2 frame rate.
That's just silly. Server lag, I understand and it makes sense.....but any machine made in this decade should easily be able to handle the mirror image...unless there is something wrong with the game engine itself. US Navy Fighters circa 1996 is the first flight sim I remember that had rearward mirrors.
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Rebublic: Not a good idea to call one of my statements silly, when I might just know a little bit about graphic processing.
So how would you make a mirror, with out creating an extra view frustumthen querying the object list, for all objects in that frustum, and then displaying them?
HiTech
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I may be having a brain fart, here, but one question:
What's a frustum?
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Originally posted by Saxman
I may be having a brain fart, here, but one question:
What's a frustum?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustum
hehe still no help .
Bronk
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Originally posted by hitech
Rebublic: Not a good idea to call one of my statements silly, when I might just know a little bit about graphic processing.
So how would you make a mirror, with out creating an extra view frustumthen querying the object list, for all objects in that frustum, and then displaying them?
HiTech
The idea that our framerates would be 1/2ed is the silly part. Surely the average PC of today is more than capable.
Server lag or increased client side bandwidth is reason enough for not implementing the rear mirror. Actually, the simple fact that you are the developer and chose not to is reason enough...I meant no offense...but I don't see how it would be a hardware issue given the relatively light requirements of the AH engine.
Again, no offense intended, AH2 is bar none the most addictive and satisfying of the WW2 era flight sims out there...hence some of my previous posts.
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AH requires a lot of PC to run. I could run other games just fine on my old machine but AH wouldn't. Especially not since 2.0 and later versions. Every skin pack, every new aircraft, all require more and more resources. I have a damn decent video card, too. I can handle FEAR with almost full settings with FSAA on and it looks great.
Having said that, I fear the FPS I'd get if AH introduced mirrors.
If you use a real time mirror effect it's impossible -- no PC on earth can really handle that "on the fly" as needed. So the only other way around it is to duplicate the real world into the mirror. Then you have other problems. You can't just mirror PART of the world. What if the mirror changes position (as planes are wont to do)? You have to display everything exactly as it is in the non-mirror world, and you can't "just" show what's visible -- because the compute cycles to determine what should be visible, and when/where/how to turn certain objects on and off again would kill more FPS than just rendering it all.
Trust Hitech on this one. He's quite right. Although, I have no effing clue what his last post meant :lol
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Oh I trust him, and I feel bad that my comment was taken so badly. :( Especially since I'm crazy for AH, and glad someone is spending the time and effort to do it right unlike many others *cough* figher ace*cough* If it could be done with little impact I believe it would have been.
Again, sorry Hitech :(
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I want a front view mirror to use when I'm flying looking backwards OTD.
Those dang trees always seem to jump up and bite me when I'm not looking.
Beware of the Larch!
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Damn I didnt know my post would be so divisive. Guess this would be a bad time to ask for a JU87G:confused:
Glenn
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Originally posted by republic
Surely the average PC of today is more than capable.
Strike 2! HiTech doesnt like to be called Shirley
:rofl
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*runs around waving a white flag flailing his arms wildly*
I surrender I surrender! Please don't take my AH away!
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Originally posted by brucerer
Well then whats the point? Just look behind you.
Um, that WAS the point To keep the game from suffering a frame rate hit that would effect some of the slower machines you would need to set the "mirror view" in a frame by itself; you could access that frame with your view hat....but why have it coded in if you need to use the view hat to access it? You could just as easily use the same hat switch to simply look behind you.
Speaka' dee eengleesh? :lol
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This thread is a waste of bandwidth.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Strike 2! HiTech doesnt like to be called Shirley
:rofl
LOL!
Roger
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Lock On: Modern Air Combat has working mirrors, as does the lousy IL-2 series.
Well, dang! If AW could do it in 3D circa 2000, and Modern Air Combat and IL-2 can do it now (and who is to say that IL-2's graphics are simple?), why can't we!
If we can have the trees on the deck without the frame rate hit, I STILL don't understand why we cannot get a mirror six view. After all, if I can jump from pilot view in a B17 to a tail gunner's view and see everything with no FR hit, why is a mirror six view so danged difficult??????? Are the programmers in AW and other more modern flight sims such geniuses?
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Air Warrior (AW) did not have working mirrors. I still have the box program. It did have the option to remove visible cockpit skins, which I am sure most would call a 'cheat'.
I have brought up the rear view mirror topic up before, and been rebuked accordingly. It's not going to happen in AH. While WW2 fighter aircraft did have rear view mirrors, the decision on how to model them (and whether they should be modeled) has been made. I suppose this is putting words in HT's mouth, but after seeing this topic many times it's pretty obvious.
There are many ways and levels of detail associated with modeling mirrors. However, even the simplest would be alot of work. Since the current rear view 'works', adding another view or additional processing to an existing view would not add more information.
Regards,
Malta
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Since developer time is finite, I'd much rather see that time devoted to bringing us new aircraft/units, than the mirror...if it is indeed so difficult. It really would be nice to have a new gv, plane or derivative of a current unit every quarter or...even every 6 months.
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Maybe i am wrong? Was the standard six view in AW set up so that you were looking backwards down the spine of the fuselage? Was it a mirror image? or was it as if you could poke your head over the seat and swivel your head like Linda Blair? If it's the Linda Blair view, that shouldn't be so hard to program, should it?
Malta, you're right on the futility of the suggestion about mirrors though. I have had the same arguments from the pilots over in Warbirds. To them, our system of adjusting and saving head positions is a travesty of ... cod only knows what... some warped view of what realism is. With their 6 view, you will never see what is behind you in an F6 or F4U for example.
So I guess the AH view isn't so bad, by contrast. Nevertheless, the best Flight Sim in the business should strive for perfection, not just being the best, eh?
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Originally posted by Bronk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustum
hehe still no help .
Bronk
A better description.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/Viewports_and_Clipping.asp
Also I do not believe AW ever had a mirror, it had a mirror view on some planes.
Republic: I never said it was very difficult to make a mirror. Reread my quote, I said it would have a sever FPS impact. It really is equivalently to drawing the entire world twice per frame.
HiTech
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Make the mirror with a toggle on and off like they do in Il2. Sure you will get a performance hit if you fly around with it on all the time, but just a quick look isn't going to hurt performance so much. Thats the key, just a quick look then toggle it back off.
If you are going to go to the trouble to make nice historically correct cockpits like the new F4Us have, then it makes no sense imho to leave out a mirror where there indeed was one in RL.
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Originally posted by Skyfoxx
Make the mirror with a toggle on and off like they do in Il2. Sure you will get a performance hit if you fly around with it on all the time, but just a quick look isn't going to hurt performance so much. Thats the key, just a quick look then toggle it back off.
If you are going to go to the trouble to make nice historically correct cockpits like the new F4Us have, then it makes no sense imho to leave out a mirror where there indeed was one in RL.
"but why have it coded in if you need to use the view hat to access it? You could just as easily use the same hat switch to simply look behind you."
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I never said anything about a hat switch. You could assign it to any key.
Its not perfect, but an option.