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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 08:33:09 PM

Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 08:33:09 PM
let's just say, for sake of argument, that i needed to project sound up to 100 feet from a source towards a target, and lets also say that i did not wish for the sound to be heard from anywhwere else but at the target point.

ideally i would be using high frequency sound projection, but i do not have access to such technology.  


is there a macguyver way to do  it?  

(one that is relatively compact)


:confused:
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Neubob on January 07, 2007, 08:39:03 PM
Use a cell phone.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: DREDIOCK on January 07, 2007, 08:40:31 PM
A cheap Walkie Talkie will do it too
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 08:41:32 PM
i am talking about non translated clean sound waves.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Neubob on January 07, 2007, 08:42:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
i am talking about non translated clean sound waves.


Piss off your wife and stand 100 away.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 08:43:19 PM
(throws ball for neubob)

for instance, i went to a science museum once where they had a parabolic dish that you could whisper into and you could hear it across a courtyard.

the dish was huge though.  this needs to be small...and aimable.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Neubob on January 07, 2007, 08:50:01 PM
I don't know if you watch futureweapons on Discovery, but they showcased a new technology a few months back that generated coherent sound just like a laser does with light. Stand a few inches from the focal point, and you heard just a faint noise. Stand directly in its path and its deafening. You could also bounce the sound off surfaces, and it seemed to work at a pretty impressive range.

I'm assuming that this is the technology you don't have access to, as, I imagine, nobody does. Parabolic echo-dishes are then your best bet. Apparently, oriented correctly and given the proper amount of sound, you can actually cook meat with the focused sonic waves.

This rambling was the most help I could provide for your quest.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 08:58:33 PM
now were talking...

don't need to cook meat, just need to project sound loudly without disturbing surrounding area.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: john9001 on January 07, 2007, 09:11:00 PM
what did your neighbors do to make you mad at them?
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 09:18:07 PM
:rofl

well, if it were my neighbors it would be the extremely loud latino music pumping out of their umpteen cars for hours every day when they come home, even though i have asked them very nicely to keep it down a bit...(we live on a dirt road for cripes sakes...quiet neighborhood)

i just call the cops when i think they are getting out of hand and they scatter now, so it's not quite as bad.  

this is for the purposes of an art project.  it's an idea that i have been working on for years that i come around to every so often when i look through my sketchbooks.

great idea though.  might have to be an offshoot project.

;)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 09:32:16 PM
when i say loud, i mean audible from a distance and/or amplified in such a way as to be heard.

the thing that bob was talking about was ideal, but i wouldnt have the slightest idea who even makes these things or how to find them.

i read an article once where they were starting to put them in vending machines.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Thrawn on January 07, 2007, 09:54:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
I don't know if you watch futureweapons on Discovery, but they showcased a new technology a few months back that generated coherent sound just like a laser does with light.



http://www.srs.gov/general/busiops/tech-transfer/techbrif/sono-beam.pdf
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 10:05:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
http://www.srs.gov/general/busiops/tech-transfer/techbrif/sono-beam.pdf


oh hell ya.

can anyone think of a way to macguyver something like this...(it doesnt have to be quite this precise...but it would be awesome if it was)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: storch on January 07, 2007, 10:08:17 PM
is there a spyshops in your town?  http://www.spyshops.com  I have a device called supersonic ear try explore@wildplanet.com you can hear a gnat fart from one klic away
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Gunslinger on January 07, 2007, 10:11:42 PM
Go to a swapp meet and see if you can pick up a cheap Sig. Gen.  Use the RF output and run that into any after market amplifier.  Then run that output to some speakers.  Anyone that will produce 10K Hz should do.  

That should be directional enough within the range of human hearing.....if human is infact your target.  I saw the disc.ch epp on future weapons and that flat pannel array was pretty darn cool.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: FBplmmr on January 07, 2007, 10:23:38 PM
while not always "compact", wives have selective hearing and unique ability to make thier voice impact a precise area in my forehead directly adjacent to a throbbing vein.

I'm not sure if they all have this but if you would like mine I will pay for shipping(one way)... handleing is up to you and performed at your own risk!


hope this helps

:D
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Maverick on January 07, 2007, 11:05:52 PM
Can you integrate some PVC pipe into your project? You could use it to "pipe" the sound to the location then add a horn projection to the delivery end to spread the sound there. Perhaps use a small amplifier at the receiving end as well to boost it.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 11:36:43 PM
maverick...i was thinking along those lines actually and i began to experiment with that notion.

i found the following:

- isolating the sound at its source may require some sort of external sound absorptive covering or alternately a shell which has a layer of insulation so that it does not escape through source.  

- any piping used will require that its material reflect sound rather than either absorbing it or vibrating with it.  energy loss....actually, this would be even better than absorbtive material...much less loss.

- that i need to find out whether or not sound waves (like light) can be condensed and focused without losing its clarity and becoming muffled.  (like my neighbors car bass that makes me want to pull my hair out_still love the idea of turning this thing on them once ... kidding of course...LOL)  i am assuming that it can be, but that it must be done by reflection (like a parabolic dish with equal distances between all points center.

tonight i used a length of shop vac piping and a small standard computer speaker (bare speaker wired to input) and found that the device let out lots and lots of sound down its length.  there ended up being only a slight difference between the sound directly in front of it and from the side.

i then began wrapping towels around it trying to muffle the sound from escaping from anywhere but the end.  it worked a little, but so far unsatisfactory.

it seems that in order to be effective i have to begin to associate sound with its parabala and consider both its direction as well as its frequency or wave.

am i correct with this assumption or have i missed the way that sound travels entirely?

i've worked with light alot....sound is something new...at least anything near this level of specificity.



it also occured to me that i could essentially reverse engineer a dish microphone, but that it may be difficult to focus with any real degree of clarity.

anyone think that could work or would the wave expand once it left the dish?



i'd like to get the sound down to lets say a 10 ft area on a vertical grid 100 ft away.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 07, 2007, 11:44:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Can you integrate some PVC pipe into your project? You could use it to "pipe" the sound to the location then add a horn projection to the delivery end to spread the sound there. Perhaps use a small amplifier at the receiving end as well to boost it.


ultimately, i would like the delivery device (along with whatever it needs on its end) to be the only objects involved.  just reread that...thought i should clarify.

i appreciate yours and everyones input here so far.  thank you.   :)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Debonair on January 08, 2007, 01:33:39 AM
i am reminded of that frequently quoted tale of the flame thrower's invention
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 02:41:43 PM
heh
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2007, 03:08:52 PM
100' of string and two cans fits your requirements the best.

Laser sound doesn't because it could heard by somebody standing between you and your target.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 03:10:34 PM
it would be PERFECT if it could not be heard between source and target
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Chairboy on January 08, 2007, 03:14:03 PM
A nine volt battery attached to a little circuit that beeps once every 5-15 minutes, and looks completely innocuous.  Drop that through an open window.  During the night, it'll keep 'em from going to sleep.  Convinced it's a smoke alarm, they'll stay up all night trying to track down the sound.  But the interval is so long that it'll take ages to find it.

...is something I'd never do.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2007, 03:14:50 PM
like 2 cans and a string ?
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2007, 03:16:27 PM
oh nevermind. didn't realize you meant for harrasment purposes.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2007, 03:20:41 PM
Go to the pet store and buy a bunch of krickets. Wait I don't think those type make noise.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 03:24:26 PM
it is not for harassment purposes.  though, considering that they (the illegals) have threatened me with physical harm more than once, it would probably be easilly justified.  these are a bad batch.

in a fantasy world, it would be quite funny to use something like that to convince them that their house was haunted, but i am not so diabolical.

it is for an installation art piece.

:cool:
Title: hypothetical
Post by: dmf on January 08, 2007, 03:25:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
Piss off your wife and stand 100 away.


Oh yea do that and the sound will be really loud and perfectly clear :)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 03:34:12 PM
(http://www.augustbach.com/gravity.jpg)

this is an example of an installation art piece.

12 towers, each an aquarium, each containing a single goldfish.

all have a water spicket attached which is slowly letting the water drip from the containers and into a tin bucket below.  

the room is filled with the random sounds of the drips echoing throughout the room.



see.  not diabolical at all.


-


(btw. does anyone know how to say "get out" in spanish?)

:D
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 03:38:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Go to a swapp meet and see if you can pick up a cheap Sig. Gen.  Use the RF output and run that into any after market amplifier.  Then run that output to some speakers.  Anyone that will produce 10K Hz should do.  

That should be directional enough within the range of human hearing.....if human is infact your target.  I saw the disc.ch epp on future weapons and that flat pannel array was pretty darn cool.


so its the hz that determines the size of the wave?
Title: hypothetical
Post by: whels on January 08, 2007, 03:46:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
[IMG]
see.  not diabolical at all.


-


(btw. does anyone know how to say "get out" in spanish?)

:D


This is Imigration, Open the door.  :O
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Maverick on January 08, 2007, 03:55:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
[B(btw. does anyone know how to say "get out" in spanish?)

:D [/B]


Vamonos muchachos. La migra es aqui!!!

If they are wet, that will do it.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Dux on January 08, 2007, 03:57:29 PM
It is much easier to focus shorter wavelengths than longer ones... do they have dogs? ;)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 04:00:19 PM
yes they have dogs.  but again, and i cannot stress this enought, this is for "peaceful" artsy fartsy purposes.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Speed55 on January 08, 2007, 04:13:05 PM
microphone with a 100ft wire plugged into a hidden battery powered guitar amp?
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 04:19:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Speed55
microphone with a 100ft wire plugged into a hidden battery powered guitar amp?


nope.  sorry.  needs to be projected.  no cords, wires, pulleys or artifacts at receiving end.

:)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: storch on January 08, 2007, 04:22:28 PM
capture the sound then pipe it back through one of those horns the swiss use to call their neighbors on the next peak over.  the thing literally looks like a 10 foot long funnel/megaphone.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: storch on January 08, 2007, 04:26:12 PM
get out is spanish is fuera (foo/eh/raw)
Title: hypothetical
Post by: WhiteHawk on January 08, 2007, 05:33:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Speed55
microphone with a 100ft wire plugged into a hidden battery powered guitar amp?


if your trying to do the 'paybacks are a *****' with some hand hammered audio beam device to irritate a flock of thumpin mexicans, i strongly suggest a re-think period of not less than 6 hours, or after youve had some decent sleep.  If they happen to see, what sounds like it is going to be, some RPG luancher looking device pointed at their hut, they may re-act as if there were some RPG Launcher pointed in thier direction.  One thing about mexicans, they will work 20 hours a day for 10 bucks, but do not ever point a bazooka, or anything that looks like a bazooka in thier general direction.  I could go into the potato gun vs the mexicans story, but I would rather not.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: lasersailor184 on January 08, 2007, 05:46:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
so its the hz that determines the size of the wave?


The hz is the length of the wave.  It also determines the tone.  This is where subwoofers come in.

The lowest tone (hz) a human can hear has a wave length of 17 feet.  If you're not outside of 17 feet from the source, you won't actually hear it.  So subwoofers were invented.  With these, they try to reproduce low frequency sounds by vibrating the air.  

The amplitude of the wave is from the amount of energy creating it.  The size is determined by how loud you make it.

But I don't really see a solution to your problem.  Sound is pressure waves.  Unless there's something confining it, it'll radiate in any direction it wants.  You can't really focus it, because once it leaves it's confinement, it tries to move towards lower pressure areas.

You've heard about the domes and sound.  This works because it redirects sound.  Same with reflective surfaces.  Both the dome and a pipe could work, but having a 100 foot pipe escapes your purpose, I believe.  As well as having an immovable dome.


Only other solution I see is electrical reproduction at the target.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Speed55 on January 08, 2007, 05:49:53 PM
potato guns.. man those things are great.

longest hang time. 52 seconds using a lemon shot straight up into the air.

sorry to hijack
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 06:07:29 PM
speed, no problem, i tend to appreciate good hijack sir.  

laser, that was what i was wondering.  (if it would immediately begin to stretch its wave size once it left the confines of any device which tries to condense it.

Question(s):

..are the waves then dissipated by atmosphere (in the same way as light is scattered unless focused very sharply) thus causing the waves to expand (as a ripple in water) or are they simply reforming into their most natural state.

would this mean that pitch would be a factor?

if so, would this mean that a bass sound would have a larger wave than a high pitched sound would have?

which travels better or farther, a deeper sound or a higher pitched sound?
Title: hypothetical
Post by: lasersailor184 on January 08, 2007, 07:48:02 PM
I know they are dissipated both by expansion and friction.  

Past that, I don't really know the answers to your questions.  I have ideas, but I'm pretty sure I slept through those portions of my Architectural Acoustics class.

Don't confuse wave length and wave amplitude.  Wave length determines the tone.  The wave length has an actual length measurement.  Like I said before, low tone sounds get up around 20 feet long.  High tone sounds can be mere millimeters long, even shorter.

The wave amplitude is the energy of the sound wave.  This doesn't have an actual length measurement.  It's measured in energy, but most often referred to as intensity.  Decibels are a derivation of the intensity scale to best compare the different intensities to the human ear.  They are not a linear derivation.  For example, 50 decibels is not half the intensity of 100 decibels.  I believe roughly 80 decibels is half of 100 decibels, but I'm probably remembering that wrong.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: storch on January 08, 2007, 08:09:49 PM
low pitched sounds travel much farther.  elephants low pitch calls, inaubile to the human ear can travel tens of miles, whale calls in the better sound carrying medium of the ocean, hundreds
Title: hypothetical
Post by: Gunslinger on January 08, 2007, 09:28:41 PM
The wave length (frequency) will effect how directional the sound is.

Low direction has longer wave lengths and is usually heard by both ears at or about the same time.  It also bounces better and spreads more (lamens terms)

Higher frequncy (10 -15Khz) is more dirctional because the wavelength is smaller.  In lamens terms one ear hears it ebefore or instead of the other because of the distance involved (think about it sound travels in waves and at a set speed with very few variables)

An analogy, a bass drumb is heard by many were as a horn has to be pointed somwhere.
Title: hypothetical
Post by: JB88 on January 08, 2007, 09:36:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
The wave length (frequency) will effect how directional the sound is.

Low direction has longer wave lengths and is usually heard by both ears at or about the same time.  It also bounces better and spreads more (lamens terms)

Higher frequncy (10 -15Khz) is more dirctional because the wavelength is smaller.  In lamens terms one ear hears it ebefore or instead of the other because of the distance involved (think about it sound travels in waves and at a set speed with very few variables)

An analogy, a bass drumb is heard by many were as a horn has to be pointed somwhere.


interesting.  can a high frequency sound also be tonally bass in it's nature or does it have to be a high pitched "not live its memorex" sound?

:confused: