Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1K3 on January 07, 2007, 11:06:04 PM
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I don't know if it's a rumor but HTC is going to implement a "perk ordinance".:huh
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just for some rides IE instead of having the F4U-IC the D will have an option for the 4x20mms which will be a perk option.. As far as i know thats what HTC was talking about when he mentioned perk ord.. Basically certain gun packages will be perked.. Not bombs and rockets.
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Although it leaves the way open to perk certain bombs, like maybe a 4k cookie on the mossie, or the 1800kg egg on the Ju87 or something (hypothetically)
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Tiny Tim rockets?
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personally I don't see a reason. Why use that when a 1k bomb would be more effective? :P
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some spitfires carried 4x 20mm cannons and Fw 190s (A-8) carried 6x 20mm cannons:eek: I wonder if we will have these for "perk ordinance"
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...or....
the 3 cannon La7???
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Originally posted by 1K3
some spitfires carried 4x 20mm cannons and Fw 190s (A-8) carried 6x 20mm cannons:eek: I wonder if we will have these for "perk ordinance"
The spits rarely ever used 4x20mm. Most ferried with 4x 20mm had 2x removed upon arrival.
Also, the 190A-8 with the 2x20mm pack under each wing was supposedly slowed down and weighed down awfully by it. It might be the case that the performance loss itself is the penalty for taking this option (should we ever get it). If not I hope the perk isn't too high. I've been waiting for that one for a while now! :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
The spits rarely ever used 4x20mm. Most ferried with 4x 20mm had 2x removed upon arrival.
Also, the 190A-8 with the 2x20mm pack under each wing was supposedly slowed down and weighed down awfully by it. It might be the case that the performance loss itself is the penalty for taking this option (should we ever get it). If not I hope the perk isn't too high. I've been waiting for that one for a while now! :)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Hello Mr Bias.
Bronk
Edit: Should add to this so not to appear as FLAME.
Krusty why do you think most 4x 20mm spits had 2 removed hmmm?
I'll tell you PERFORMANCE LOSS.
So what's good for spit tards would be good for luftwobbles.
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Bronk: If no spits USED the 4x20mm in combat, why would you add it? Yes they removed them for performance reasons, but also because they felt "2 were good enough". The 190s took the other route, piling more guns and more ammo onto the frame as much as it could carry. Sometimes they put bombs on it so large the tail wheel couldn't touch the ground.
Totally different philosophy between the two nations here. Not bias. Just how it was.
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Krusty you said it in your first post .
The spits rarely ever used 4x20mm. Most ferried with 4x 20mm had 2x removed upon arrival.
Most/Rarely is the key words. This implies some had quad 20mm.
What they just had 4x birds for show and didn't use them?
I know they just parked them on the field and oooohed and ahhhed over them.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
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don't be a twit, bronk. You've read the threads with the arguments (from years and years past). I know you have. You know that the folks on these forums that know all about spitfires have said the same things I've just said. So go argue with them. You probably won't win.
On the subject at hand, if I recall the small handful of spitMkV that had 4x20mm were only used as ground attack, a role at which the hurricane IIC was better suited so it was given the task instead.
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if we take a few moments to ignore bronk's ever lasting war on krusty....
.....4x20mm spits should not be introduced because they would be the only thing ever flown and far too powerfull for the whiners to handle.
i would love it if they did though.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i would love it if they did though.
Fly the Hurr2c, it'll give you an idea how how it would feel :)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
if we take a few moments to ignore bronk's ever lasting war on krusty....
.....4x20mm spits should not be introduced because they would be the only thing ever flown and far too powerfull for the whiners to handle.
i would love it if they did though.
*pop* pffffffffft
Once again search I don't argue with him everywhere.
Read topic batty "perk ords ".
So it would be like the Mk XIV. Used but why take it when XVIs are free.
Bronk
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Ohh so now they were used in some capacity.
which is it?
If no spits USED the 4x20mm in combat, why would you add it?
or
I recall the small handful of spitMkV that had 4x20mm were only used as ground attack,
Gee how many 3 gun La7s saw combat.
:rolleyes:
Bronk
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No bronk, you do get very argumentative and pick at every little nit you can find, trying to force arguments. It's old hat for you, but it gets tiring and boring for the rest of us. You see that word there, the one even YOU quoted? The word "if"? Look it up in the dictionary. The 4x20mm spitfires LITERALLY had just a handful that saw any service. That's a fraction of the number of 3-gun LA7s that saw service. And, if you're going to start a fight, don't pick the WORST example ever. Most folks want the 3-gun La perked, removed, or minimized in some way. I wouldn't use that as an example of something already in the game, because it's a throwback from the early years of AH1 with little place in the current game. Same as the 20mm on the K-4 and calling it a G-10. They had different standards back then.
Like I said, argue with the folks that presented all this info. The folks that have countless books on the matter. I KNOW you've read the threads. I KNOW you were there during all these arguments. I say argue with them, but you know you wouldn't win.
And yet, you again try to force a fight with me for some reason. Go away. I'm not playing your feeble games. I've summarized what has been presented umpteen-billion times. You're trying to shoot the messenger.
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And you like to make blanket statements.
That go something like this.
The P-39 sucks, one of the worst AC of the war.
Or
B-24 Never flew at 30' to and from target ever!!!!!!!
Or
If they never used 4x 20mm spits ,why put them in game?
So yes if you want to make blanket statement I'll nit pick all I want.
Nice how that works ehh.
Bronk
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Aweful lot of discussion on this, are we sure this is set to occur or not? Nothing posted under news and announcements.
I've got something for you all, I heard from this guy, who has this neighbor who's wifes cousin saw a guy who looked like HiTech talking to a dude who looked like Pyro at this bar...forget the name, but it's not important, this is reliable information...anyway,
They were overheard saying that now we will have to actually pay for perk rides as part of our monthly dues. Take up a 262, get shot down, that's an extra $5 for next month, $3 for temps, etc.. It's what I heard,,,dunno
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If there should be a 4-cannon spit, then HTC should re introduce the Spitfire Vc (The current spit 5 we have is a Vb) because Vc was the only spit that carried 4x 20's in action.
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Originally posted by DREDger
Aweful lot of discussion on this, are we sure this is set to occur or not? Nothing posted under news and announcements.
I've got something for you all, I heard from this guy, who has this neighbor who's wifes cousin saw a guy who looked like HiTech talking to a dude who looked like Pyro at this bar...forget the name, but it's not important, this is reliable information...anyway,
They were overheard saying that now we will have to actually pay for perk rides as part of our monthly dues. Take up a 262, get shot down, that's an extra $5 for next month, $3 for temps, etc.. It's what I heard,,,dunno
Well now.
Originally posted by Pyro
Kidding aside, perk ordnance is what it sounds like- the ability to charge perks for specific ordnance loadouts. It means that instead of having the 1C as a separate plane, I can just make 20mm cannons a perked loadout on the 1D and save space. Beyond that, we could offer up some more exotic weapon choices without fear of them overrunning the arenas or having to add separate planes to do them. 57mm on your Mossie, Tiny Tims on your Corsair, whatever. We're not going to do nukes so forget about that. I don't know when this will be done so don't ask.
From this thread .
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192234&perpage=40&highlight=perk%20ordnance&pagenumber=2
Bronk
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Originally posted by 1K3
If there should be a 4-cannon spit, then HTC should re introduce the Spitfire Vc (The current spit 5 we have is a Vb) because Vc was the only spit that carried 4x 20's in action.
Yup the old Vc should return with a mild perked 4x20mm option, or a standard unperked 2x20mm option.
IX's had problems and never carried 4x20mm
Only Spit that carried them from day one (wartime use) was the F.21
Did see a pic of the prototype Griffon Spit Mk IV with 6 x 20mms ;) .
Krusty will disagree with one thing - It was realised way back in 1939/1940 that more cannons were preferable. Hence the RAF spec for the first prototype Spit IV was that it should have the ability to carry up to 6 x 20mms.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Yup the old Vc should return with a mild perked 4x20mm option, or a standard unperked 2x20mm option.
IX's had problems and never carried 4x20mm
Only Spit that carried them from day one (wartime use) was the F.21
Did see a pic of the prototype Griffon Spit Mk IV with 6 x 20mms ;) .
Krusty will disagree with one thing - It was realised way back in 1939/1940 that more cannons were preferable. Hence the RAF spec for the first prototype Spit IV was that it should have the ability to carry up to 6 x 20mms.
But in practice it didn't really happen that way. There were also problems warming the outboard guns at altitude, if memory serves. Most that had the 4x gun setup had 2 removed because "2 were enough" -- at this time London was no longer under seige and the bulk of the targets were Luftwaffe fighters, smaller aircraft than the big bombers of the BOB.
EDIT: Got a picture of that spit? That'd be kinda cool to see.
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Bronk:
"Ohh etc"
Krusty:
"No Bronk etc"
My mental image of the people who post here is of this man (http://www.nndb.com/people/612/000091339/), physically and mentally. A moustache and a lot of anger. This topic does nothing to dispel that.
Getting back to the thread, a perked weapons arrangement raises the possibility of a generic Hurricane II, with the standard option having 12x.303 and a sky-high perked option having 4x20mm. The RAF's modular wing philosophy would fit well with a perked weapons system, and so would the Luftwaffe's array of field modifications, e.g. the 57mm cannon in the Bf100, the 30mm gondolas for the 109s, the twin-cannon gondolas for the 109, the quad damage for the Ju-87, etc.
I'm sure the purists would argue that a Ju-88A-4 with added 20mm guns as an option does not equal a Ju-88G, and there will be people arguing that such and such a weapon system was never fielded with such and such a version of such and such aircraft at such and such a date. I say damn these people, they are limited.
On the one hand if HTC emphasises accuracy there will be very few perked weapon options; on the other hand, if HTC is willing to play fast and loose with dates and picky little details there could be mass carnage in the skies and on the ground = good.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The 190s took the other route, piling more guns and more ammo onto the frame as much as it could carry. Sometimes they put bombs on it so large the tail wheel couldn't touch the ground.
I would very much like to see a picture showing a 190 with a bomb so big on it, the tail wheel couldn't touch the ground.... I suppose it dragged the tail fins of the bomb along the ground as it took off, eh?
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Nope, they rigged a fake tail wheel, on a long pole, and when the plane took off it was jettisoned and it either was disposable or had a chute. Let me dig up an example for you.
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I guess if HTC implements "Perk Ordinance", we will see the following (i hope)...
* A T-34/76 (76mm armed gun) that can be upgraded to T-34/85 (armed with 85mm). The frame is basically the same but the turret is different
* A Hurricane II that can carry 12x 30 cals or perk option of 4x 20mm cans or 2x 40 cans + 4x 30 cals
* An Fw 190A-8 that can carry a gondolas 20mm cannons (that makes it total of 6 cannons!)
* An Fw 190F-8 that can carry a torpedo!
* A cannon armed F6F-5 (2x 20mm and 4x 50 cals)
* 24 R4M rockets for Me 262
* bombs and rockets for Tempest.
* A gondola package for Bf 109K-4
* La-7 with 3-cannon option
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Found a photo. Turns out the jettisonable tail wheel was on a 109, not a 190.
The 190 they ripped the tail wheel off, added about a foot's worth of extra tubing, and stuck it back on again.
The SC1000 bomb (1000kg) was so big it had to have the bottom fin removed to barely clear the ground. The SC1800 (the big egg we currently have on the Ju87) was even larger still. The photo below shows the modification to the tail wheel so that this type of craft could carry torpedos and SC1800s (same mod for either type).
(http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Fw190/fw190a5u15-3.jpg)
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Interesting pic Krusty.
Looks like it is on stilts.
Bronk
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speaking of....
if we ever do get modified plane ord loads i would love to the the 190 F8 with the torpedo option.
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Originally posted by Apeking
...the quad damage for the Ju-87, etc.
You mean like this?
(http://www.quake4portal.com/info/images/quaddamage.jpg)
Lol, i'm not helping am i?
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i hear they goin to perk every single bullet... so planes like the p47 with 3400rounds of 50cal are going to cost ALOT of perks.......
:aok
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Originally posted by Mustaine
speaking of....
if we ever do get modified plane ord loads i would love to the the 190 F8 with the torpedo option.
If the FW190F-8 gets torpedos, I'd like to see the P-38 have that same option too as well as the option to carry 3 1k bombs.
ack-ack
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The six 20mm Griffon Spit was only a mockup, it didn't have actual cannons in it. I have the photo in a book as well.
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Originally posted by Krusty
But in practice it didn't really happen that way. There were also problems warming the outboard guns at altitude, if memory serves. Most that had the 4x gun setup had 2 removed because "2 were enough" -- at this time London was no longer under seige and the bulk of the targets were Luftwaffe fighters, smaller aircraft than the big bombers of the BOB.
EDIT: Got a picture of that spit? That'd be kinda cool to see.
Should be noted it was only a cannon mock up. (looks evil though)
DP845 Prototype Griffon Spitfire Mk IV
(http://www.cyberonic.com/~kreed/Triplecannon.jpg)
There were also a handful of RAAF Mk VIIIs with 4 x 20mm also.
Problem is going to be exactly the same as the clipped wing argument - 4 x 20mm Spits existed, just how many is unknown.
Yes there was a problem with the Mk IX and heating for the outer pair, probably why most fitted with quad 20mms are found on older Mk V's in warmer climates.
[edit] This of course does not include the F.21 (if we ever get it), ALL of which had 4 x 20mm fitted as standard, in a re-designed wing.
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That'd make any bomber crap a brick, for sure! (More reason why I want the 190 with 6x MG151/20s!!)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
4x20mm spits should not be introduced because they would be the only thing ever flown and far too powerfull for the whiners to handle.
:lol
Regards,
hap
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If the FW190F-8 gets torpedos, I'd like to see the P-38 have that same option too as well as the option to carry 3 1k bombs.
ack-ack
is that real? if so did not know that... only know the 190F8 carried torpedoes, in multiple sources of books i have and on the net.
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While the 190 did carry the SC1800 (to bomb a bridge in 1945 after the allies took it) I don't think they ever used the torpedo in combat -- it was being tested but not really used, I believe.
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Originally posted by Krusty
While the 190 did carry the SC1800 (to bomb a bridge in 1945 after the allies took it) I don't think they ever used the torpedo in combat -- it was being tested but not really used, I believe.
here:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:rBCz-LRD7kYJ:www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html+190+F8+torpedo&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=firefox-a
Fw 190F-8/U2 - torpedo plane with two underwing ETC 503 racks or under-fuselage mounted ETC 504 (previously ETC 501) bomb rack. The plane was equipped with a special sight system, TSA 2A (Tiefsturzangle 2A) for precise aerial torpedo BT (Bombentorpedo) aiming. Using this torpedo it was possible to attack targets from a higher altitude and from a higher angle than in the case of an ordinary aerial torpedo LT (Lufttorpedo). It was planned to use two BT 400 or one BT 700 torpedo. Other armament was reduced to two fuselage mounted MG 131 machine guns. A small number of these planes were in service with 11./KG200.
though I believe i have seen it other places also, and have a book with a picture of 1 loaded.
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Well, we won't get torps or SC1800s on 190s then. Both stripped the plane down including weapons (SC1800 plane had none, I believe). It would be an entirely new variant in the planelist, and I can't see that happening just for a torpedo or a huge bomb.
Now, the SC1000.... THAT would be nice to see as a perk option (2.2k bomb! DIE tigers, DIE!)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If the FW190F-8 gets torpedos, I'd like to see the P-38 have that same option too as well as the option to carry 3 1k bombs.
ack-ack
Rather see the 38 with Napalm tanks.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/902_1168370452_jvcpics066.jpg)
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I doubt that'll help, Krusty. You could drop a Lanc's worth of those suckers and bull's-eye the Tiger with every one, and he'll STILL drive off.
How about they fix bomb effects on GVs, first? (dropped a 1000-pounder in the TURRET of an Osti last week and watched him drive away. I didn't even get an assist for him when he finally died).
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Originally posted by Saxman
I doubt that'll help, Krusty. You could drop a Lanc's worth of those suckers and bull's-eye the Tiger with every one, and he'll STILL drive off.
How about they fix bomb effects on GVs, first? (dropped a 1000-pounder in the TURRET of an Osti last week and watched him drive away. I didn't even get an assist for him when he finally died).
Just use the rockets on the 190F8...they can kill tigers with 1 shot. :)
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Originally posted by Saxman
How about they fix bomb effects on GVs, first? (dropped a 1000-pounder in the TURRET of an Osti last week and watched him drive away. I didn't even get an assist for him when he finally died).
Prolly invisible wall. Last time I was in a pzr shooting at another tank, and my shells were exploding in mid air ! His shells came exactly the same way without any problem. I guess the low life armorers back at the base gave us AA shell.
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So does this perk ordinance equal out that we will have the option to have a 6x50 38 instead of the standard 1x20mm and 4x50 cal 38?
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Probably not. It will probably be official weapons packages (i.e. dual 20mm pods under each 190 wing) rather than in-field modifications (like 6x50cal on a P-38, or 2x20mm and 2x12.7mm on a hurricane on the Eastern Front).
Mind you they've not said anything about any of these except the C-hog armament. All the rest is guesswork and debate.