Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on January 09, 2007, 02:57:13 PM
-
http://www.tmz.com/2007/01/09/suzanne-at-least-i-dont-have-a-kid-in-iraq/
I hope her house burns down again once they rebuild. It takes a very special type of parent to be proud of their child and stay positive while they are off fighting a war. Obviously this b- celeb isn't that type of person, and thank god to the best of my knowledge, she isn't a parent.
sommers
-
Ya know what Sommers? "At least I don't have a kid who lives in San Francisco, or any other gay arse place in California".
"Hey Suzanne, do you like apples?" GOOD. Cuz I just schooled you, so how do you like dem fluff'n apples!"
lmao im nuts
-
What mother wants her kid in a combat zone?
-
"My nature is to look at the glass half full. I don't have a son or daughter in Iraq. I haven't lost a loved one. We will rebuild, and I truly believe we will learn something great from this experience."
Seems like rational thought to me. A house is just property that can be rebuilt. You are criticizing her because she thinks that having a loved one killed in combat is worse than having her house burn down?
-
I interpret some arrogance in that, where its almost demeaning to the parents with kids serving....
oh well.....once again, very trivial post by cav. lmfao
-
Cav, I think you mis-read what she said.
I take it as it could be worse, I could have a kid in Iraq.
-
my life could be worse, i could be Suzanne Somers. :lol
-
ya know Cav, I think you might be reading more than is there.
Susanne Somers' house burns down, she gets interviewed and she believes there are worse things that could happen, like losing a loved one or "having a kid on duty in Iraq".
In a statement to TMZ issued by her rep, Suzanne says, "My nature is to look at the glass half full. I don't have a son or daughter in Iraq. I haven't lost a loved one. We will rebuild, and I truly believe we will learn something great from this experience."
I have a couple of friends in Iraq, 1 about to return, 1 stationed somewhere over there now, and 1 about to ship within a month or so. I would much rather they not have to be there at all
-
+1 for misunderstood quote
-
My sister has a son in Iraq (my nephew) and she doesn't feel that way at all. Matter of fact, she's pretty damn proud that her son is serving in the U.S. Army in the intelligence sector, and she's supportive of his presence in Iraq.
-
Rip summed it up. What I mean is, it's not a negative thing to have a child in Iraq, or deployed in the military. It's something to be proud of.
-
Originally posted by cav58d
Rip summed it up. What I mean is, it's not a negative thing to have a child in Iraq, or deployed in the military. It's something to be proud of.
It's also a reason to lose a lot of sleep at night, to worry, to pace and to lose hair. Just because what they are doing is honorable doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Any parent with no reservations about their child being at war is simply not normal, by any standards.
To this B-celeb, losing her home, which she can afford to rebuild, is less costly than the physical and emotional strain of having a child in harm's way.
A pretty simple thought that in no way detracts from the service being done by our armed-forces.
Sommers may be a world-class *****, but not because of this quote.
-
Originally posted by Neubob
To this B-celeb, losing her home, which she can afford to rebuild,
it's our insurance premiums that will rebuild her multi-million dollar mansion by the sea. $$$.
-
I would be scared to death to have a child in a war zone, any war zone. You chest thumpers need to sign up and get a close look at what war really is. You've seen too many John Wayne movies.
-
Cav, you gotta lighten up or you'll end up getting fragged once you commission.
-
Originally posted by cav58d
Ya know what Sommers? "At least I don't have a kid who lives in San Francisco, or any other gay arse place in California".
"
And those of us close to SF agree that it is good types like you don't live nearby.
-
I hope your nephew makes it back ok Rip.
-
" I didnt lose a child in Iraq" is what she just said on TV I was reading this. My impression is she is trying to be positive about losing her home. Rich or not having your house burn to the ground sucks.
-
I have a child in Iraq on his second tour. It sucks because you worry everyday and every night. I know he would rather be somewhere else , he did 14 months there his last tour. Soon his older brother will be there as well for his second tour in Iraq.
Do I like this?? Hell no I wish they were both safe at home. However not once have I've heard ethier of them whine or complain. It seems the people who don't have to go, or have no family over there, scream and whine the most. I'm sorry Suzzane lost her house. Does Ms Sommers think quoates like that help the troops? I can't how see spreading discent, fear, contempt, and taking every opportunity to be negative about the mission these men and women are tasked with is supporting them. I probably never will.
Am I scared for my sons? Yes extremely. I'm also very proud of them. They do their duty, they don't complain. Their not poor, their not uneducated , their not victims. They are Soldiers. To hell with anybody who says they are anything but that.
SPC Thomas Vandeventer 1st Cavalry Division
SPC Travis Vandeventer previously 4th Infantry Division, now US Army Reserve Psy Ops.
-
Originally posted by SirLoin
I hope your nephew makes it back ok Rip.
The odds of dying in a car accident is still a higher odds for you and I (and him) than a soldier serving in Iraq, Sirloin. (Regardless of the grim picture the press is painting) Thanks for your hopes either way though! :aok
-
Originally posted by Shifty
I have a child in Iraq on his second tour. It sucks because you worry everyday and every night. I know he would rather be somewhere else , he did 14 months there his last tour. Soon his older brother will be there as well for his second tour in Iraq.
Do I like this?? Hell no I wish they were both safe at home. However not once have I've heard ethier of them whine or complain. It seems the people who don't have to go, or have no family over there, scream and whine the most. I'm sorry Suzzane lost her house. Does Ms Sommers think quoates like that help the troops? I can't how see spreading discent, fear, contempt, and taking every opportunity to be negative about the mission these men and women are tasked with is supporting them. I probably never will.
Am I scared for my sons? Yes extremely. I'm also very proud of them. They do their duty, they don't complain. Their not poor, their not uneducated , their not victims. They are Soldiers. To hell with anybody who says they are anything but that.
SPC Thomas Vandeventer 1st Cavalry Division
SPC Travis Vandeventer previously 4th Infantry Division, now US Army Reserve Psy Ops.
Do they know how to spell "They're"?
Just kidding. to your son's Shifty! Thank them for the duty from our family please.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do they know how to spell "They're"?
Just kidding. to your son's Shifty! Thank them for the duty from our family please.
I never said I was wasn't uneducated.;)
Will do. Thank You.
-
Originally posted by Shifty
I have a child in Iraq on his second tour. It sucks because you worry everyday and every night. I know he would rather be somewhere else , he did 14 months there his last tour. Soon his older brother will be there as well for his second tour in Iraq.
Do I like this?? Hell no I wish they were both safe at home. However not once have I've heard ethier of them whine or complain. It seems the people who don't have to go, or have no family over there, scream and whine the most. I'm sorry Suzzane lost her house. Does Ms Sommers think quoates like that help the troops? I can't how see spreading discent, fear, contempt, and taking every opportunity to be negative about the mission these men and women are tasked with is supporting them. I probably never will.
Am I scared for my sons? Yes extremely. I'm also very proud of them. They do their duty, they don't complain. Their not poor, their not uneducated , their not victims. They are Soldiers. To hell with anybody who says they are anything but that.
SPC Thomas Vandeventer 1st Cavalry Division
SPC Travis Vandeventer previously 4th Infantry Division, now US Army Reserve Psy Ops.
With all due respect to you and your sons, and everyone else in harms way, Shifty, I have to ask you why you interpreted her quote as a shot at the war effort?
Yes, she is likely one of the typical Hollywood types that is likely to mouth off without much stake in the situation, but in this case, all I heard her say was that there were more pressing and potentially serious issues to be dealt with than the one she now faces. Yes, she is quite possibly resentful of the war effort, but she did not state this, even in tone, in what she said...
Taken objectively, if that is possible, she made a comparison between a situation that can be rectified (her home burning), and a potentially more dire one (having a child on the battlefield). And this point is undisputable. You, as a father of two soldiers, have a whole lot more at stake than she did, facing a fire that only took her home.
All presuppositions aside, what did she say that was politically motivated to detract from the war effort or anybody involved in it?
-
I believe you misinterpreted the statement Cav.
-
Shifty, Good post and
to you and your sons.
I think sommers should not have referenced the troops in iraq. It's hard to determine if she was just speaking off of the cuff saying what just came to mind or trying to make a pollitical statement. No matter as it was irrelevent to the subject at hand.
-
If the same thing happened in 1944 and she said "Thank God I don't have a son in the Pacific" it would have been immediately interpreted as nothing more than her saying there are more important things in life than material possessions.
But, no. In the fear mongering, neocon, Rove-spun world we live in today she has just spit in the face of a soldier. It's pathetic that you chickenhawks will grab at any straw to twist a message of humility into a political hate message. Suddenly she's Jane Fonda shooting down Blackhawks and making IEDs. You'll do anything to turn this into propaganda. One problem, you didn't check your facts to back up your arguement that she does not support the troops.
You might want to count how many USO tours Suzanne has made and how much actual hands on support of troops in the field she had given before you go putting words in her mouth. I'm sure you would be embarrassed if you compared it to your own.
Anyone here have an award from the troops for their service? Suzanne did, but it was burned in the fire.
Suzanne, it was only a house. It's not like you have a child in Iraq.
-
Hey RPM,
How many lines can you post here like that before the foam from your mouth obscures the screen and you have to wipe it? :huh
-
I'd hit it :D
-
My house burned down...I lost my job. My car was broken into, and my girlfriend has been cheating on me with my father. I'm being investigated for credit card fraud, and i've got a terrible rash on my genitals....But hey. At least I don't have a kid in Iraq.
-
Originally posted by cav58d
My house burned down...I lost my job. My car was broken into, and my girlfriend has been cheating on me with my father. I'm being investigated for credit card fraud, and i've got a terrible rash on my genitals....But hey. At least I don't have a kid in Iraq.
Or anything between your ears.
-
Originally posted by rpm
If the same thing happened in 1944 and she said "Thank God I don't have a son in the Pacific" it would have been immediately interpreted as nothing more than her saying there are more important things in life than material possessions.
But, no. In the fear mongering, neocon, Rove-spun world we live in today she has just spit in the face of a soldier. It's pathetic that you chickenhawks will grab at any straw to twist a message of humility into a political hate message. Suddenly she's Jane Fonda shooting down Blackhawks and making IEDs. You'll do anything to turn this into propaganda. One problem, you didn't check your facts to back up your arguement that she does not support the troops.
You might want to count how many USO tours Suzanne has made and how much actual hands on support of troops in the field she had given before you go putting words in her mouth. I'm sure you would be embarrassed if you compared it to your own.
Anyone here have an award from the troops for their service? Suzanne did, but it was burned in the fire.
Suzanne, it was only a house. It's not like you have a child in Iraq.
there is no way you are really this much of stark raving foaming at the mouth limpwristed tree hugging liberal lunatic. you're fishing. I call BS on your arse. btw how are you doing health wise?
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Hey RPM,
How many lines can you post here like that before the foam from your mouth obscures the screen and you have to wipe it? :huh
It's not like he doesn't have a point... At least if the claims about her USO work etc. check out. I for one don't care enough to check them :)
-
http://155.7.40.58/americasupportsyou/Content.aspx?ID=26873128 (http://155.7.40.58/americasupportsyou/Content.aspx?ID=26873128)
(http://155.7.40.58/AmericaSupportsYou/Photos/america/2005-07/article_lores/lowres_20050712085732_suz.jpg)
July 12, 2005 - Col. Tracey Nicholson, Fort Hamilton, N.Y., garrison commander, presents actress and former USO tour entertainer Suzanne Somers an Army commander’s award for “Patriotic Civilian Service” in recognition of her support for Soldiers worldwide. Photo by U.S. Marine Corps Cpl. Lameen Witter
I'm doing well, except when I see some lunacy like this thread.
-
she has done alot of USO work...she received awards for "Patriotic Civilian Service" from our military.
Although she has been critical of the Bush/Cheney war of aggression in Irag, you also need to understand she has just been through a traumatic experience what with her multi- million dollar uber mansion burning down and all, and might be a just a bit over emotional.
See definitely supports the men and women in our armed forces, plus... I'd hit it :D
-
Originally posted by cav58d
My house burned down...I lost my job. My car was broken into, and my girlfriend has been cheating on me with my father. I'm being investigated for credit card fraud, and i've got a terrible rash on my genitals....But hey. At least I don't have a kid in Iraq.
Cav, I've seen answering machines with a greater potential for critical thought than you've shown in this thread.
She didn't mean to insult the troops. The fact that she is blonde, heavily made up, and a resident of Malibu doesn't mean that every reference she makes to Iraq is a direct attack on every man, woman, child and dog involved in the war effort.
Personally, I admire her stiocism given what just happened to her. She lost her home, and even if she won't be sleeping in a box tonight, she's still missing things that are irreplaceable, as any of us would in the same situation. I defy anybody here to be as even-keeled having faced the same set of circumstances. Liberal or not, rich or poor, she showed some courage. Maybe for just a second, that courage should be allowed to shine through the despised veneer.
This tendancy to jump on anybody whom you find potentially distasteful, no matter what the context or factual background, is, quite frankly, absurd. Take yourself off of autopilot and come to terms with the fact that your first impression isn't always the correct one, much less the only one.
-
RPM hit the nail on the head.
-
i'd've LMAO if it'd been "i'm still better off than john rutter"
(http://www.interestingideas.com/ii/pix/astronot.gif)
-
Originally posted by Neubob
With all due respect to you and your sons, and everyone else in harms way, Shifty, I have to ask you why you interpreted her quote as a shot at the war effort?
Neubob.
You ask a good question. Maybe it wasn't a shot at the war effort, by another Hollywood primadonna. That could very well be her sincere feelings. I'm so used to seeing crap coming from Hollywood types and theres a very real chance I'm over sensitive on this subject. I should probably not even hang out in the O club.
Trying to give you an honest answer............. I don't why I feel that way. I do know I hear more bashing of the effort than I do support from the red carpet and sun glasses crowd.
-
I support the war, the troops; & not just my friends & family who are there. I don't worry about them because worrying won't help them or me. I don't have children in harms way & that would make all the difference imo. The feelings a normal parent have for their child are so strong from worry to pride that it's hard for other people to understand if they don't have children themselves, but...I do think the Sommers quote was mis-interpreted.
It seemed less of a bash & more of a "it could be worse" even though there is an under current of anti-war sentiment nearly everywhere a person looks today. It's going to take another calamity of 9/11 proportions to pull us all together & get the flags out for another 6 months. At least I know where to find my flag when the day comes; it's hanging in front of my house.
-
flatbar... I live near frisco and believe me... I would rather more like cav lived there and less like who do.
she could have said "at least I don't have a son who owns a sport bike" it would have been more to the point... A young man is much more likely to get maimed or killed on a sport bike than in iraq. She could have said... At least I don't have a gay son.. the chances of getting aids for gays in America is much higher than getting killed or injured in iraq. She coulda said... At least I don't have a son living in washington dc... the chances of... well.. you get the point..
I believe that she said what she said because of her distaste for the war more than any worse case scenario kind of thing.
lazs
-
Sommers used a bad personal experience as an opportunity to make a political statement. Her house burned down so she needed to remind us of a quagmire that her arch nemesis has gotten us into...
Some like to say she was just making an "it could be worse" analogy but deep down you all know what she's really saying is "at least my son won't be killed in a hopeless war I don't believe in.”
-
Yep... I really do get the impression that she is saying that if her son died on a sport bike it would at least be an honorable and useful death as opposed to a wasted death like the soldiers in iraq.
lazs
-
I'm getting the impression that this is just another example of people hearing exactly what they want to, based on their political beliefs. Either way, we're all completely certain of our conclusion, and without any further evidence, are ready to convict or acquit. We're all human, we're all guilty of it.
-
she is USO. i doubt she was taking a dig at the war effort. in fact, i would interpret it as expressing her sympathies towards the mothers because they probably express their feelings to her due to her role.
while i can appreciate that those who have children there are probably wired for sound on the issue, i take no comfort in those who do not who externalise their great unhappyness with the world by projecting it on others.
we all want stars. we make them. and then, like children, we either destroy them or forget them.
or would it be better to say that she could be wasting her time and effort on a cause that appreciates her talents and her efforts?
sigh.
88
-
I've eard a lot of celeb not supporting the war, but supporting the troops. Sadly, to many, that translate in "not supporting the war is disrespecting the troops".:furious
On an another note, how someone could see evil in Susan's comment is beyond me. :confused: There got to be more positive way for people to chanel their energy that neatpicking a celeb's quote, turn it upsidedown, and get all bend out of shape.
-
Ya know, any time that some of you think you're any better than a bunch of prissy little teenage girls overanalyzing every little thing Charlene said, you need only look at this thread.
-
RPM shacked this one. In fact, this could possibly be the dumbest neocon twisty thread ever..
And that is saying a lot.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
RPM shacked this one. In fact, this could possibly be the dumbest neocon twisty thread ever..
And that is saying a lot.
maybe we should have a BEST OF NEOCON TWISTY THREADS thread to sort it all out.
-
I'm just the idea guy.... I leave the legwork to you sir.
-
i'm just the idea guy who gets inspired by your ideas and hands them off to chairboy.
(if youve seen his halloween costume, you know he's the right man for the job)
:aok
-
Nothing wrong with what se said.
-
There is nothing wrong with what she said. If she is involved with the USO she might even have said it simply because that is what she was thinking about so far as being in a dangerous situation. What was on her mind.
The only way to know is to ask her. Let her explain it. I think it is odd tho considering that of all the horrible things that can happen to a person.... having your non existent son in iraq seems like an odd choice to use... having your house burned down would probly be worse risk wise.
It just seemed like an odd thing to say unless, like I said... she had just finished up with a USO tour or something and iraq was on her mind.
either way... I would believe whatever explanation she gave and it really is not that important to me what she thinks in any case.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
and it really is not that important to me what she thinks in any case.
lazs
hit the hammer right on the nail of the head
-
lol a thread about todays celebratie top headlines goes to page 2 - fast.
whare r teh soap oprea threads
-
per usual, lazs breaks it down to its core component.
-
What's interesting is that many of the strongest, most vocal supporters of the war (and of course, as they will loudly bray "the troops...") "Don't have a child in Iraq" either. Like the vast majority of Congress and the Senate, and our own President with two military-aged daughters. And, virtually anyone who would be considered "upper middle class."
Here in North Shore suburban Chicago, the military service path has to be on the order of a whopping 1 percent or so among high school graduates (as well as I can estimate from when I was in High School here). However, they do have a lot of yellow ribbons on their SUVs though to show how much they support the troops (it says so right there!) and what patriotic Americans they are (they bought the ribbon!).
Golf Clap.
Charon
-
Charon, you are right , if only the evil rich white neocons would stop invading peaceful countries, there would be "peace in our time" and our childern/solders would not have to fight.
cume by ya Charon cume by ya.
-
Originally posted by Charon
What's interesting is that many of the strongest, most vocal supporters of the war (and of course, as they will loudly bray "the troops...") "Don't have a child in Iraq" either. Like the vast majority of Congress and the Senate, and our own President with two military-aged daughters. And, virtually anyone who would be considered "upper middle class."
Here in North Shore suburban Chicago, the military service path has to be on the order of a whopping 1 percent or so among high school graduates (as well as I can estimate from when I was in High School here). However, they do have a lot of yellow ribbons on their SUVs though to show how much they support the troops (it says so right there!) and what patriotic Americans they are (they bought the ribbon!).
Golf Clap.
Charon
that's par for the course...so little to lose and much to be admired for.
-
Originally posted by Charon
What's interesting is that many of the strongest, most vocal supporters of the war (and of course, as they will loudly bray "the troops...") "Don't have a child in Iraq" either. Like the vast majority of Congress and the Senate, and our own President with two military-aged daughters. And, virtually anyone who would be considered "upper middle class."
Here in North Shore suburban Chicago, the military service path has to be on the order of a whopping 1 percent or so among high school graduates (as well as I can estimate from when I was in High School here). However, they do have a lot of yellow ribbons on their SUVs though to show how much they support the troops (it says so right there!) and what patriotic Americans they are (they bought the ribbon!).
Golf Clap.
Charon
Charon, just because they don't have a kid there, or aren't there themselves, what makes you think they don't have someone there?
I'd imagine it'd be hard to find a single person who doesn't have at least one relative, at least one friend, or at least one coworker or friendly acquaitance who is serving. We all want to see all of them come back safe, and we're all proud of what they're doing.
Practically everyone in America is connected to this war in some way. I'm from an upper-middle class town, and have a score of buddies and family over there, back from there, or on their way there.
Golf clap?
-
Charon, just because they don't have a kid there, or aren't there themselves, what makes you think they don't have someone there?
Well, we have about 2,284,000 troops in uniform from a population of 300 million for starters. Less than 1 percent of the population, so the basic odds of knowing someone closely are diminished. Also, a study of the all volunteer force conducted in 1997 found that: These results have been confirmed in recent editions of this report, which portray a socioeconomic composition of enlisted accessions similar to the population as a whole, but with the top quartile of the population underrepresented.(6)
I'm from an upper-middle class town, and have a score of buddies and family over there, back from there, or on their way there.
Where I grew up, people had swimming pools in their houses and lived across the street from Chicago Bears and Chicago Bulls pro athletes. Certainly the top quartile of the population, perhaps the top 2-3 percent for that matter. We lived on "the other side of the tracks" :) but I can assure you that the concept of military service was alien, and something "other people did." I can count on less than two hands worth of fingers the number of people from my graduating class of 600+ who served -- officers types included. While that is close to the total percentage of military service in general, I can say that most of those who served were hardly from the more well off families in the community. College rates were 98 percent.
The idea that most Americans have a personal connection to the conflict beyond the national debt just doesn't work for me. Statistically or in the reality that: "The guy I work with -- Bob -- well, his nephew is in Iraq..." has any true significance.
Anecdotally, I can name a dozen people off the top of my head now who not only don't have a relative in Iraq, but don't know anybody who does. Aside from people on this board I have to go to the realative in-law of a friend myself (who is actually a newly minted Navy Seal). And, unless it's your family, or your closest firends having a "connection" to the war is hardly all that personal a deal.
That's why I have favored the draft. Needed for manpower, better soldiers than the critics would claim if properly trained and led (WW2 and Vietnam for that matter) and real skin in the game or at least the chance that you will have real skin in the game for the FULL population if there are no loopholes. With that in mind, supporting the troops takes on new meaning before the first deployment is even considered. Otherwise, its just a great big show on TV and someting to ***** about during the regularly scheduled water cooler debate between the "Dems" and "Repubs."
Charon
-
Originally posted by Charon
Here in North Shore suburban Chicago, the military service path has to be on the order of a whopping 1 percent or so among high school graduates (as well as I can estimate from when I was in High School here). However, they do have a lot of yellow ribbons on their SUVs though to show how much they support the troops (it says so right there!) and what patriotic Americans they are (they bought the ribbon!).
Golf Clap.
Charon
Stick a Ribbon on Your S.U.V. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8)
Edit: some NSFW language in there. (unless you work where I work)
-
what Charon is trying to say is that if we drafted rich white kids their rich white neocon daddies would not want their little white kids to go to war, so the rich white neocon daddies would not invade some little defenseless country like iraq or afghanistan and there would be peace on earth.
am i close there charon?
-
No john9001, what Charon is saying is the draft would remove a great deal of apathy and detatchment from warfare by making it a real possibility for most families.
(You already knew that, of course.)
;)
-
Charon,
While you may have come from a financially affluent side of the tracks I think they were the less worthy side. Actually I feel sorry for the concepts you wrote about. They may have had more money, but lack far more non financial wealth. Certainly nothing to envy or respect.
I feel they are worthy of less than a "golf clap".
-
means
"what Charon is saying is the draft would remove a great deal of apathy and detatchment from warfare by making it a real possibility for most families.
"
possible ends
"what Charon is trying to say is that if we drafted rich white kids their rich white neocon daddies would not want their little white kids to go to war"
-
Charon. I grew up in a five bedroom home. Parents income +200k. Never paid a dime for college. Guess what? By Friday, I will have completed the ASVAB, and the initial enlistment physical. But i'm just an anomaly right? I must be doing this for future gains, and a nice resume, becuase there is no way that someone from "our" side of the tracks joins the military, because he believes in a cause. :noid
-
no. your kind just does it to piss off your parents.
:D
-
Originally posted by JB88
no. your kind just does it to piss off your parents.
:D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
LOL VOR, that was truly magical :)
what Charon is trying to say is that if we drafted rich white kids their rich white neocon daddies would not want their little white kids to go to war, so the rich white neocon daddies would not invade some little defenseless country like iraq or afghanistan and there would be peace on earth.
am i close there charon?
No, I just think they might pay a little more attention to the war plan, demand more answers to tough questions, spend some brainpower relative to costs and likely end results and see if the whole thing ultimately is worth THEIR son's life.
I think the answer to that question might be different relative to not so defenseless terrorist stronghold Afghanistan (a true harbor to al Queda), which I would have supported action in before 9/11 (with the major concerns relative to the Soviet experience needing to be addressed) compared to Wolfowitz's miracle in the Middle East that missed in so many areas (from the reaction of the Iraqi "people" to troop strengths, to oil funding the debt, to the democracy domino effect [where we may have even seriously destabilized our moderate allies in the region]). This is not hindsight. The current state of affairs was identified by people who had real experience in the region before the first shock met the first awe, but they were called ******* (or at least nervous nellies) by the chickenhawks even if they had a senior military background.
War on the cheap is only cool if it is actually cheap and works in the long haul. Otherwise we have to bear down and go at it full speed ahead with more commitment than "shopping our way to victory." Real sacrifice by the full American people.
I'm not anti war in concept by any means -- unavoidable with flawed humanity and perhaps the only thing these folk ultimately understand. I think Iraq was a mistake. I like to have the bloodshed mean something by accomplishing national goals and interests and I strongly fear this will not be the case. However, now that we are where we are I almost feel our "troop surge" at this point should be of WW2 scale to whip these Midevil ****s into line once and for all -- from Syria to Saudi Arabia. But, that's not going to happen in either the blue or red states. So we have whatever we have at this point.
Charon
-
My family is 100% supportive of my decision. Not only supportive, but they are extremely encouraging, and are helping me put my WOFT packet together, with a smile on their face.
-
Cav,
You definately are the exception, not the rule. The rich have always looked at military service as "something other people do." During the Civil War a wealthy person could actually pay someone to serve for him. Throughout our history the rich have created loopholes to exempt themselves from service. If I remember correctly, shortly after the last major loophole, the college exemption, was done away with, the draft was abolished.
-
if you think the "iraq war" is a failure you are a victim of the media and the liberals, most of iraq is peaceful, only a few small areas are affected by the terrorists, the extra troops are to be used in those spots to mop up the remnants.
-
Originally posted by sluggish
Cav,
You definately are the exception, not the rule. The rich have always looked at military service as "something other people do." During the Civil War a wealthy person could actually pay someone to serve for him. Throughout our history the rich have created loopholes to exempt themselves from service. If I remember correctly, shortly after the last major loophole, the college exemption, was done away with, the draft was abolished.
JFK and his older brother joe? john kerry?
-
Charon. I grew up in a five bedroom home. Parents income +200k. Never paid a dime for college. Guess what? By Friday, I will have completed the ASVAB, and the initial enlistment physical. But i'm just an anomaly right? I must be doing this for future gains, and a nice resume, becuase there is no way that someone from "our" side of the tracks joins the military, because he believes in a cause.
Well, I was actually on the other side of "your" tracks :) Single parent scraping by to get me in to the right schoold district. But yeah, not many seemed to care all that much about duty, honor and country so WTG, you know what's important in life.
Funny story though. One of "the handful", a guy named Kent "Vic" Webber ended up in Naval Aviation as an F-18 pilot and Top Gun Instructor in the A2G end of things. I was hanging out at the local watering hole with him and a bunch of friends after the 10th HS anniversary. Here's a guy living MY dream, and with a smoking hot fiancee to boot, and he standing there almost apologizing for his career choice in that... "it doesn't pay much, but..." Dude.
Of course, another one of the handful was a Marine named JJ who got busted trying to sell some Sat device to the "Soviets" in a plot worthy of the Keystone cops, no doubt.
Charon
-
Originally posted by john9001
JFK and his older brother joe? john kerry?
The exception, not the rule.
-
if you think the "iraq war" is a failure you are a victim of the media and the liberals, most of iraq is peaceful, only a few small areas are affected by the terrorists, the extra troops are to be used in those spots to mop up the remnants.
Hey, then there is no problem. I will sleep well tonight knowing this is a non issue. Once we clean out the last of those "dead enders" democray can just take off.
Charon
-
Originally posted by cav58d
My family is 100% supportive of my decision. Not only supportive, but they are extremely encouraging, and are helping me put my WOFT packet together, with a smile on their face.
Are they enthusiastic about you joining the armed forces in general, or are they enthusiastic about you potentially going into combat?
-
Glad you're serving Cav, and I'm sure Suzanne Sommers will be there with the USO to entertain you when you do.
-
Neubob, they understand the eventuality of what will come with the job I am going into, and they are 100% supportive and enthusiastic.
-
Being enthusiastic about your eagerness to undertake and execute a responsibility is one thing. Being enthusiastic about you being shot at is something totally different.
Being in Iraq and doing the job is honorable and dignified. That does not mean that getting hurt or worse while doing that job is not potentially tragic.
That being said, I beleive that a person(Sommers included) can be both supportive of our troops, and their cause, but at the same time, fear for them.
Do you not agree?
-
I think a better choice of words for her would be, "at least I haven't lost a kid in Iraq". I still think her comments were very degrading, and not necessary. She has the right to say whatever she wants, but I find it offensive. To I find it offensive enough, to ever take this conversation past the AH BBS? No, not at all. But it is offending to me.
-
whatever, it really doesn't matter anymore. I have my opinion, you have yours. Lets close the thread. =)
-
Originally posted by cav58d
whatever, it really doesn't matter anymore. I have my opinion, you have yours. Lets close the thread. =)
nevar!!!!
(88 shakes fist at the sky, trembles slightly and lets loose his best william shatner as captain kirk, stranded in the bowels of the genisis planet "CAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV")
ahem.
-
at its essence... the way I feel about the war is... whatever the troops feel about it.
Right now... the troops seem to think that we should be there and they don't seem to be that upset about being there. I have talked to plenty of em.
I will go with whatever they want. That to me is real support for the troops. Give them what they want.
If they want to stay and finish the job then give em the tools to do so.
I don't like a draft. I was around for a draft. it doesn't equalize out anything... makes it worse even.
I am for a volunteer army. I want the soldiers to be in because they want to be and because they are getting something out of it.
None of this has to do with what wars or police actions we should be in. I just feel that the draft is the ultimate evil. No one wins. If we can't do it with a volunteer force then maybe we shouldn't do it.
lazs
-
Here's a question... And please don't jump on me for asking it. It is a question, not an answer with a question mark at the end.
What is more supportive of our armed forces--wanting our troops to remain at war, doing the job, but, inevitably, leading to casualties, or wanting them to come home, safely, from a mission that is of questionable use to our nation?
Of course I have my own preference. I'm just curious as to what you guys think.
-
It is supporting of human beings to want to not see harm come to them but...
Troops?
let's make it more simple. is it supportive of me to make me wear seatbelts or a helmet when riding a motorcycle? Is it supportive of me to make a law that says I must run away when a burglar enters my home?
In my opinion... supporting the troops is supporting what they believe is the right thing to do. giving them what they need. You are not supporting them if they believe that they have a mission that is a just one that needs to get done and they are working hard and risking everything and then.....
you are pulling the rug out from under them or.... going around saying that their sacrafices are not what you want that you think they are causing harm rather than good...
It is like saying that you know more than them so they should shut up and quit killing babies.
Not sure if I put it right but in essence you don't support someone by imposing your will on them. It is not support to tell someone they don't know what they are talking about or doing and that you are gonna stop em for their own good.
In vietnam it was a lot simpler.... supporting the troops was not as clear cut with a large portion of the draftees really never wanting to be there and wanting out badly once they were.
I believe that is why the left wants a draft.. to get the more maleable kids in to use as examples.
It is extremely hard to say you are supporting the troops when you don't have a lot of kerries throwing their fake medals away in public or groups of kids scared of a draft out protesting.
My idea of supporting the troops is to listen to them and help them anyway they think they need.... I would say that no matter what I read I will not know as much as they do being there.
lazs
-
Ok, fair enough... But you are an individual. The armed forces, for lack of a better term, are an organ of a nation.
The men and women of the military are experts in deciding how to execute their mission. Do you think that they should have autonomy in deciding what their mission is, when that mission is finished?
-
Neubob,
Yourt question is overly limiting in that there are certainly more options and conditions than you limited. In addition you allowed your personal bias to show in the wording of it.
Be that as it may. the last question you asked is easy. The answer is no.
As long as we have the country we have now the military needs to have and be controlled by (I'm talking policy and political decisions here) by that civilian government. That means the goals of the country politically are not set by the military.
Once the political goal is set and the option to use military power is engaged, then get out of the tactical arena and let the military leaders practice their craft. Please note I said the "tactical arena". This means the politicos stay the hell out of the ops center and leave war fighting to the experts.
On the strategic level they (civilian politicians) must be involved. Strategic goals are tied directly to the political goals and political input and direction are important. This does not mean the politicos go back and start directing combat ops. They merely set the political goals to be achieved by the combat and lay guidelines to accomplish them. Then they again let the military leaders obtain them. Clausiwitz said it best when he stated that war is the ultimate expression of political power by a nation.
If you totally remove the politicians from the equation you have just stepped into a military government similar to what saddumb employed in iraq. Mao also described it when he said true political power is derived from the barrel of a gun. That kind of system is exactly what the founding fathers were striving to avoid and I think they did a darn good job.
This really is a subject for a separate thread rather than hijacking this one.
-
very good answer mav. thanks. I would not have done as well.
It does boil down to the fact that you need to give the troops all the monetary and .... more intangible.. the moral support they need to accomplish whatever mission they are tasked to do.
That mission is where there is room to support the troops but not the way the war is going. but..
I do not believe it is support to have a press that only shows the bad caused by their mission...or.. that dwells on the inevitable barbarism of a very few soldiers while claiming that the thousands of heroic acts performed every day are not newsworthy.
I also think that the troops on the ground have a better feel for what is going on than the average voter or BB poster. For now, it seems that the troops want to accomplish something for all their sacrafice. I would allow them to do so at this point.
lazs
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
RPM shacked this one. In fact, this could possibly be the dumbest neocon twisty thread ever..
And that is saying a lot.
Amazing the lengths they will go to in order to avoid the fact that war is bad, or that having a loved one in harm's way could be more painful than losing one's home. Hitler and Stalin could only dream of having followers so expertly brainwashed.
-
I'd much rather be proud of my loved one who VOLUNTEERED for his service, and made it home safely, than have my house burn down. Call me crazy.
-
Okay, let me be the first. After reading this thread, you're crazy. :D
-
Dang Rolex, you beat me to it.