Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Simaril on January 10, 2007, 11:06:09 AM
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Last night during the nice running fight between Bish and Nits around ?40, I ended up in a bad situation, made a bad decision, and (not surprisingly) ended up dead. But as I've thought about it, I'm wondering what tactical suggestions others might have. And, no, I don'y have it on film.
So here's what happened. We were on the Baltic map, and the Nits were coming from A41 south across the water to the Bish-held A40. (I'm not sure if the base numbers...) There were roughly equal numbers, though in general the nits had more energy. I was fighting over the water, staying away from the ack, and ranging between 3K and the deck.
My F4U-1A had bagged 3, and was moving generally north at 1K and 250 mph or so. The only enemy threat in play was a spit XVI at my 10:30, on the deck, being chased by friendlies. My mistake was underestimating his E, and overestimating his attackers' commitment to their target....
...because as he passed 500m off my left wing, he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6 at initial distance of 200. My countrymen saw jucier targets ahead of them, in the main furball, and gave up on the XVI. He quickly stabilized at an uncomfotable 400, I was flying generally towad my base, and there were some friendlies inbound with alt. IN the end, he was dead -- the only question was whether I'd be alive to see it!
I dove to the deck and tried to outlast him, which was the wrong decision. He landed a few sprayed pings, The distance stayed at 400 as my slower acceleration and need to jink at least gently kept my from outpacing him, over a max 2-3 minute chase. A friendly was dropping in to help out, but I took a PW and then hit the tower before he could clear me.
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At first I thought I had enough E to keep me safe, and I hung on to that hope too long partly because I knew friendlies were inbound above me. I was afraid to pull up or break turn, since I figured he would cut across the curve to get the kill shot. I could have tried a barrel or lag roll, though with 400 separation there was a fair chance he'd get the snap shot.
Looking back, I think I should have tried a barrel roll with fairly hard initial break, and at the same time dropped gear and pumped flaps ASAP. It would have been a gamble, that the moves would be enough to "force" a missed snap shot and save my butt.
Any other thoughts from the gurus?
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As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.
I will always try something if being chased and cannot get separation ... I figure ... what the heck ... it just might work.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Looking back, I think I should have tried a barrel roll with fairly hard initial break, and at the same time dropped gear and pumped flaps ASAP. It would have been a gamble, that the moves would be enough to "force" a missed snap shot and save my butt.
Any time you have a spit 400 yards off your tail, you're probably a goner unless you're also in a spit (or similar plane). That said, sudden deceleration only gets him to pass you by once, and THEN you're really stuck low, slow and dirty with an irritated spitfire over the top of you.
I wonder if it might not be more successful with a high-speed rolling scissors?
- oldman
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Im not A F4U guru, but I second the previous speakers. A Spit XVI at your six at a distance of only 400yds is a desperate situation. Which demands desperate maneuvers. Due to the high number of Spits around, chances are high that the Spit driver is not extremely skilled and might be caught by surprise. A good pilot can shoot you down easily wether you run or maneuver in this situation. But a bad pilot has a much harder time trying to follow your barrel / lag roll, scissors or whatever than just following you in your more or less straight run home.
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Again with the others..a spit 400 off your six is not a very advantageous position to be in. I think the best choice would have been try for the over shoot as well. Drop gear, flaps, chop the throttle and skid her in the loop to bleed the speed and hope for the snap shot. However if you missed....it woulda been ugly. :p
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I've never flown the F4U-1A but if it flys anything like the F4U-1C you really didn't have any advantages that you could exploit against a Spit XVI. Other than a scissors defense to attempt an overshoot (unlikely) the only thing you could have hoped for was to get your wings out of phase with him then break when you've gained the largest possible advantage but that's effectively what you're doing (continuously) with a scissors. Even that would have been temporary.
Hitting the brakes (slow down, drop flaps, possibly gear) might have worked if the Spit pilot wasn't experienced. I got 2 kills that way one night trying to get a wounded F4F-4 home but those are tough little birds and I took a pounding doing it. The third one finally got me.
If you're in that situation try anything and everything because you don't have anything more to lose.
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Originally posted by Simaril
The only enemy threat in play was a spit XVI at my 10:30, on the deck, being chased by friendlies. My mistake was underestimating his E, and overestimating his attackers' commitment to their target....
...because as he passed 500m off my left wing
did you have comms with the friendlies chasing him? ie setup a strategy on how you all could have worked it toward your favor?
SA ---> was you watching the spit16 the WHOLE way?
he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6 at initial distance of 200.
so you watched him the WHOLE way, as he flew 500 meters off your left wing ( meaning counter was reading 500? ( between 400 & 600? ) when the spit pulled up, being this close is almost the same as a straight up intial merge from your view point, the spit was being chased, so he prob had dove to gain seperation from the chasers, you being 250, you prob could have went vertical with him on the merge and being slower beat him to the inside of the turn, since he was faster........BANG he is dead...... from your description and distances listed, seems the spit16 performed a perfect leadturn in the vertical on you......
My countrymen saw jucier targets ahead of them, in the main furball, and gave up on the XVI. He quickly stabilized at an uncomfotable 400,
as stated by others at this point, you should have executed a defensive barrel Roll/ big gamble from this point on..
I dove to the deck and tried to outlast him, which was the wrong decision. He landed a few sprayed pings, The distance stayed at 400 as my slower acceleration and need to jink at least gently kept my from outpacing him, over a max 2-3 minute chase.
watching the enemy in your 6 view, you only had 1k alt , said he was on the deck coming toward you, you diving to the deck gave up any potential alt you could have used..........from this point, I would sugest making a few long sweeping turns left..........right.......... ..left..........not bleeding speed in doing so make them gentle, then go HARD left turn ( make it look like a flat turn ) all the while watching the spit16 in rear view as you see him start to climb into a high yoyo, you roll toward him and keep turning but not flat , turning in to a hi yoyo type turn yourself, then proceed into a vertical rolling scissors perhaps, you being in a Hog you will bleed E , slow down faster, he should shoot out infront above you, unless he is real good pile-it....... this just one idea, being slow already, I doubt I would drop the Gear and kill off any priceless amount of E I still had........the F4U will and can get slow enough with chop throttle/flaps/heavy Rudder use without using the gear. ( directions on turns are just an example, opposite works just the same in general )
when you come into situations like these, keep in mind you have not lost until you are in the tower, tell yourself I am GOING TO WIN!!!! and think in 3D, geometery!!!!! offset the turns so they overlap play the angles!!! when you flying against a good turning plane
1 has not lost until someone has lost ability to control the flight of their plane!!! try anything you can think of, but from the stablized 400 distance point on, is a very difficult starting point to begin to do something......
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Originally posted by SlapShot
As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.
Thats exactly what i would do except at the top of the roll the gear would have been deployed.When the new Corsair's came out i completely reconfigured my joystick so the gear tab was on the stick for that purpose alone.
Gear out and 1/2 throttle at the top works everytime.
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Originally posted by Simaril
as he passed 500m off my left wing, he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6
IMO theres your mistake right there? you left him 500m gap between you which he used to lead-turn you. plain and simple. Don't leave the gap if you going to get that close to him. No gap left, no space to lead turn. No angles given away unnecessarily.
However without the film its hard to say exactly, this is my interpretation of the situation you describe.
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I would not have remained at 1000 feet and 250mph, I would have traded some of that speed for a nice climb to gather more "E". I would have made note of the nme spit as my primary threat and either put angles on him or extended and put distance. From what I read your SA was behind the curve and you sat there fat dumb and happy while he maneuvered to your six. I take it you were not working with a wingman, so you have the primary responsibility for SA. I think it's just a case of poor SA and being caught low and slow by a faster aircraft that was in the right spot at the right time.
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I'm no guru, but this is my usual situation with the jug facing La7, spit 16s and most of the plane set. The idea is to take the fight to where the plane doesn't matter and it's much more about pilot skill.
First priority - get your speed up. This is not to pull away from it (because it will take too much time as you tried), but it negates any turning advantage. All planes pull 6G at high speed. High speed = more lead required to hit. It also means that he can't pull much lead to shoot without blacking out. Defensive moves on the other hand suffer less from the occasional black out. A short 0G dive is all you need.
Second priority - complicate the situation. Make it an un-defined situation for him - not a 6 chase and not pure BnZ. One way to do it is to start with a non horizontal break turn and immediate non-180 reversal. Make it a 3D fight with weird angles. If he goes for the knife fight a rolling scissors is a good move that very few handle right and plane type has less significance. If he goes for a high yo-yo or pulls up - level wings, shallow dive to regain your speed and pull some distance while he slows. I'm always amazed how many pull too high and allow you to open enough separation to turn and face them.
You still have to beat them from a disadvantage or disengage after that, but the odds are better.
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As many have stated the "pilot stuff" manual doesnt cover this one. The simple truth is that you have no clear cut simple answer. That being said i've survived this scenario numerous times (and probably posted a few of them). Here is my general train of thought. While it is specific to the hog (which I'm reasonably compentent in) it is more broadly applicable.
1) your survival here is completely up to the other guy, he has to "screw the pooch" for you to win. So the 1st thing to realize that by doing nothing that can only happen if he manages to run into you. There for....
a) what can you change, he's stable at 400 so you have no closure to work with. You cant out accelerate or outclimb him and you cant really out turn him....
so.....
what fight can you win....
only answer I see is a rolling scissors. How do we go from dead to a "snowballs chance". 1st you need to do the only thing you can SLOW DOWN. He simply cant do that as well as you can. 2nd you need to get a single flat scissor going to get him out of sync. I'd pull up very quickly then chop and push the nose down hard literally to the water and break into a hard left hander with 3 notchs of flap, pulling to that little "circle" for about 1/3 of a circle. I'm betting the whole stack he's looking for the shot. At that 1/3 mark I'm pulling back flat but imedialtely converting to a climbing full flap reversal looking to move right into a rolling scissor. I can tell you flat out that if the spit followed me thru the left hander he has the crossing shot on a platter...but IF he misses or only wings me he than has an impossible time dealing with a 130 mph full flapped hog in the rolling scissor....
Best I can do....will look for a clip
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
so you watched him the WHOLE way, as he flew 500 meters off your left wing ( meaning counter was reading 500? ( between 400 & 600? ) when the spit pulled up, being this close is almost the same as a straight up intial merge from your view point, the spit was being chased, so he prob had dove to gain seperation from the chasers, you being 250, you prob could have went vertical with him on the merge and being slower beat him to the inside of the turn, since he was faster........BANG he is dead...... from your description and distances listed, seems the spit16 performed a perfect leadturn in the vertical on you......
If I may elaborate a bit on TC's comment...
500 yards offset is a merge. You must treat it like a merge. Never let the enemy get behind your 3/9 line unmolested.
While the Spit16 is a very able fighter, most of the guys flying it aren't as capable as their aircraft. Even against the best, the F4U-1A can win the reverse off the merge. Against the average MA denizen, it's a gimme.
I would have angled in immediately to try and catch the Spit with a front-quarter shot before he passed. If I missed, I'd still beat him on the reverse and pound him for his trouble.
Come to the TA tonight (Wednesday) after 9 PM eastern, grab a Spit16 and I'll take an F4U-1A and show you how to steal the Spit's socks without first removing the shoes. Just understand that the Spit16 is better in the vertical, so you want to kill him before your degrading E state allows him that advantage.
My regards,
Widewing
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I haven't flown the Corsairs since they were remodelled... Were there any major changes to the flight model?
If not, I'd go for broke with the barrel roll guns defense as some have said... Might drop the gears or might not... Having only 1k to work with, I may not have.
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Vudak: Not major changes, that I can see. However the 1A really hauls in a dive and is as fast as and an even better turner than the -1 (combined with the acceleration and power of the 1D).
I hate taking front-quarter shots against Spits. The Merlin on the Spit seems near to bulletproof, while the Hog's R2800 inevitably dies with one ping. :p
Anyway, don't know if this would help, but I'd have probably done one of two things:
1. First, turn into him before he could roll over me. However instead of a straight merge I'd go nose-low and offset to one side to try and grab some E and cheat him of an easy nose-on shot.
After the merge I pull vertical as if in an Immelmann, but as soon as we passed each other I'd pick him up and roll to keep him at the top of my canopy for the duration of the maneuver. If he tries a flat turn to reverse I can generally drop in behind most guys for a shot: Just hold back-stick and keep rolling so he's centered at the top of your up views. Use a little rudder to whip the nose around. Doesn't take a lot of fire in convergence to relieve a Spit of his wings. If I can't get around fast enough for a shot, I may at least be able to at least gain enough separation by forcing him to go vertical to negate his initial E advantage and dive out with full power and WEP.
Alternately, if he goes vertical too you'll be in a vertical scissors from this point. If you're at the right speed you may be able to come over the top first in time for a snapshot at his cockpit.
2. The other thing I might do is, as suggested, is turn slightly away to open the distance between us and start grabbing altitude before he gets to where he can roll over the top of me. The Corsair can also maintain about a 2500fpm climbing spiral to the left for QUITE some time without bleeding a lot of airspeed (on at least a couple occasions I've hung out Ki-84s doing this. They may not quite climb like a Spixteen, but have enough of a climb advantage over the early Hogs it may be work there, as well).
I've never tried this against a Spixteen, (I DID pull this off against a Seafire that had been chasing me when I was RTB the other night) but you might be able to keep just enough separation (vertical and horizontal) to keep him from getting a shot until help arrives. Alternately, you may bleed him of E and make him stall out, or he may decide to break off, giving you an opportunity to drop on him by tightening your roll and kicking inside rudder.
However since you were already in his killing range, you may not have had enough room to start with for this.
Anyone have thoughts on this? *Looks at Widewing*
Never underestimate the Corsair's flaps at mid to low speeds. Adding one or two notches at the right time can haul that big nose around almost instantly, and I'm sure I've surprised more than a few Spit drivers thinking they were about to get angles on me when all the sudden their wing popped off.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.
I will always try something if being chased and cannot get separation ... I figure ... what the heck ... it just might work.
Slapshot just listed my number one manouver 'try something, it might just work' :D
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Thanks for the suggestions, guys.
I understand the discussion of the initial merge, but to be honest I'm not sure how much applies. I had framed the question focusing on the endgame, and the initial setup info was.....not at all exact.
The whole thing developed REALLY fast. I had started roughly east of the base, out over the water and to the south of a fairly busy furball. There were maybe 15 cons in the ball, and another 10-20 in various stages of entering and exiting it, but in the general area. I topped out a barrel roll, used airelons to reorient, and cut down through the furball. I chose a target, rolled a bit, and pulled up to fire for the kill at somewhere between 1-2K. Then roll, nose down, and prepare to exit to reset.
As I popped out of the furball, I spotted the daisy chain of the Spit XVI and its pursuers. They had been completely away from the ball, off towards those hills that line the NW edge of that base -- and he just happened to break from THEM by running in my direction. The Spit was as first so low that he was a dot, no icon, and I actually saw the friendlies first. There was no way to track him "all the way", because in furball terms he was in teh next county until I arrived!
Your comments about the merge are good, but since the "500" was pulled out of my ...hat.... I can't say how successful an aggressive move would have been. I do know that I didn't FEEL threatened as he passed, and the more I think about it 500m would have felt like a...situation... to me. It may have been farther away.
The core of my mistake there was in threat assessment, though, no doubt. I discounted him the same way a fullback stops seeing a tackler that just can't reach him in time. I continued to track him, and saw him reverse. It's a subtle difference, but I still believe my screwup was in Energy assessment, not in SA. After he had picked me, I let wishful thinking delay an aggressive move. As I said at the start, that was mistake #2.
I still cant bring myself to film every engagement, because I end up with huge long lists of unidentified "FilmXX" that I have to examine at some future date. Too close to work for fun! May have to consider it though, as I keep trying to hone the sharp edge.
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Widewing: didnt see your post till this am, so didnt make it last night. Will you be there again tonite or tomorrow?
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My only "question" regarding a barrel or lag roll is the lack of closure. It invites the spit driver to counter an expected move without the E diffetential normally essential to success. I'm looking strictly at the "400 and stable" not the "pregame" {obviously he didnt end up toast on purpose so the what should I have done earlier is a relevent but seperate topic}.
So from my perspective 400 in a slightly neg E situation (acc vs acc) doesnt allow sweeping turns or a spiral climb (which works wonders as stated) simply due to the spits ballistics. To me the single most effective defense a hog has is the rolling scissors....in any defensive scenario. Once you can get a guy sucked into it the fight is normally over {obviously doesnt apply to the "ubersticks"}[where nothing seems to work:)].
My assumption is that I'm in an a guns denial scenario. A spit simply will not turn inside a decelerating hog from a co or positive E situation....simply has no ability to bleed E as well. So on a breakturn the spitty either pulls for shot (good percentage) hi yoyo's into a lag turn (better) goes vertical in a pure E fighting (your toast) or goes "defensive" by overdoing it and enabling you to extend.
To me one gives you a good window for success if he doesnt pop you right as you break or one time you on reverse. Two is a bit tougher but as stated the vertical offset works to the hogs advantage and creates a natural rolling scissors. Three is pretty much toast less you get lucky and reaquire him views wise and hit him in the vert with a bat "lazer ray special". Ffour you clean up roll out to his blind side and now he's looking at an accelerating trimmed 2k+ away hog.
To me the biggest mistake I see on offense is the other guy using a reversal defense when he needs an overshoot and giving you the drive by 300 yd plane view shot. The second is the overshoot defense without enough closure or to far out. I watch 190's Jugs and lala's perform great barrle rolls 600 out all the time and settle in 300 in front of me at the end (I've done it to if i misjudge E state:).....
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my reply regarding the longenated sweeping turns was for setting opponent up into a repetitive state as well as giving a non stable target ( slight jinks allowed), then the SUDDEN Hard Flat Turn beginning hopefully catching opponent offguard and possibly he trys to anticipate and goes opposite direction so you can break away OR( makes the attacker think that he is possibly fighting a noob ---> ie flat breakturn). Then immediate switch/convert to rolling into hi yoyo converting to rolling scissors..........if you find yourself with a bogey on ya 6, set em up the distance counter here says stablized 400, so you both going the same speed, you prob around the 300/325 mark at this time ( remember you dove to deck ) in this range you can perform better turn than the spit, he 9 times out of 10 is going to pull into a high yoyo type maneuver, when you see him break for this move, you immediately roll ya lift vector back into him and climb setting up a vertical rolling scissors........
hopefully I explained it better of why the long sweep turns and then the faked breakturn.....
as for the defensive barrel roll, you have to be mighty quick and have a high arc to maitain your E and still get the opponent to blow by you, remember you both going the same speed, why I said it be a big gamble.......but a gamble is better than nothing at this point.
Simiral, I took your initial post completely and tried to analyze the whole incident......and give feedback from how it appeared in the details....no worries ~S~
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Originally posted by humble
...snip...
So from my perspective 400 in a slightly neg E situation (acc vs acc) doesnt allow sweeping turns or a spiral climb (which works wonders as stated) simply due to the spits ballistics. To me the single most effective defense a hog has is the rolling scissors....in any defensive scenario. Once you can get a guy sucked into it the fight is normally over {obviously doesnt apply to the "ubersticks"}[where nothing seems to work:)].
My assumption is that I'm in an a guns denial scenario. A spit simply will not turn inside a decelerating hog from a co or positive E situation....simply has no ability to bleed E as well. So on a breakturn the spitty either pulls for shot (good percentage) hi yoyo's into a lag turn (better) goes vertical in a pure E fighting (your toast) or goes "defensive" by overdoing it and enabling you to extend.
...snip...
This hits the nail on the head. If the guy were closer, I would have broken for sure. I specifically was worried that breaking would give him an angle to shoot because of the separation that already was there. Looking back, although the guy was a bad shot he was good enough to get me with the time I gave...and if I had broken the odds were good that I would have survived.
The entire problem comes down to that equation. If the break or rolling scissor can deny firsing angle when starting at 400, then its absolutely the best answer. Looking back, even if it would have been guaranteed failure against a good pilot, the attempt was a better idea than holding my breath, doing quarter rolls to throw gunnery off, and hoping!
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Looking at attempting a break, I generally try to go slightly low and drop under him rather than a pure flat break. It may give him a brief snapshot at the cockpit, but once I've cleared his guns he'll be less able to follow since he'll likely need to make more of a Split-S than a simple nose-low turn to follow and runs a greater risk of lawn-darting himself. This could especially work to your advantage if you've got even a couple hundred feet under you to spare.
You can further use this to advantage if you're flying over a downward slope, as he may fly himself right into the hill if you make your reverse into the slope.
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I would have done a nose-low flat turn, and probably won. The Corsair turns very nearly as well as the Spitfire, especially at slow speeds. In fact, according to Gonzo's comparison, the F-4UD out-turns the Spitfire Mark Sixteen with full flaps.
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Keep flying the Corsair, Benny! A flat, nose low turn with a Spit 16 at d400 will get you dead very quickly, if not sooner.
Trust me....I'm a ..."Dead Man Flying".
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I actually don't fly the Corsair; I've only tried a few flights. I'm just speculating. Since their turning abilities are so close, if the guy behind isn't too familiar with his ship the F-4U might be able to pull it off. Obviously it's not going to work if the other guy knows his ship as well as you do yours.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
my reply regarding the longenated sweeping turns was for setting opponent up into a repetitive state as well as giving a non stable target ( slight jinks allowed), then the SUDDEN Hard Flat Turn beginning hopefully catching opponent offguard and possibly he trys to anticipate and goes opposite direction so you can break away OR( makes the attacker think that he is possibly fighting a noob ---> ie flat breakturn). Then immediate switch/convert to rolling into hi yoyo converting to rolling scissors..........if you find yourself with a bogey on ya 6, set em up the distance counter here says stablized 400, so you both going the same speed, you prob around the 300/325 mark at this time ( remember you dove to deck ) in this range you can perform better turn than the spit, he 9 times out of 10 is going to pull into a high yoyo type maneuver, when you see him break for this move, you immediately roll ya lift vector back into him and climb setting up a vertical rolling scissors........
hopefully I explained it better of why the long sweep turns and then the faked breakturn.....
as for the defensive barrel roll, you have to be mighty quick and have a high arc to maitain your E and still get the opponent to blow by you, remember you both going the same speed, why I said it be a big gamble.......but a gamble is better than nothing at this point.
Simiral, I took your initial post completely and tried to analyze the whole incident......and give feedback from how it appeared in the details....no worries ~S~
TC I didnt read yours before I posted mine. to me they were very similiar in concept. The need for a sudden break turn combined with some flavor of rolling reversal. I simply went on the assumption that any time spent in front of the hizooka's is a bad thing. From a trainers perspective the real problem is in the decision chain prior to the "catoshtopic event". Normally I initiate a rolling scissors fight exactly as you describe...basically an increasing ocillation at high speed transitioning to a sudden E bleed in combination with significantly greater osillation and then a rolling scissors when the guy is badly out of sync....
I dont let any spit inside 800 by choice...all to often the 1st ping is the last I get :)
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Originally posted by Simaril
I still believe my screwup was in Energy assessment, not in SA.
E assessments should be a part of your overall SA picture.
Originally posted by Simaril
I still cant bring myself to film every engagement, because I end up with huge long lists of unidentified "FilmXX" that I have to examine at some future date.
Film EVERY engagement. I pretty much always do as a matter of routine. Just the actual engagements tho. You can periodically clear out the directory of hundreds of films as required. I never go back to any film unless i need to review something in it, and i know that almost immediately, so when i log off i know the film will be one of dozen or so later numbered films, and doesn't take long to find it. Filming is great for learning what you did right or wrong, what your opponent did right or wrong (viewed from their seat). Its handy to have records if any disputes over ramming or HOing or cheating etc. Its great for working out just who was in that other a/c that got away etc :) And of course perfect for posting on this board ;)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Since their turning abilities are so close, if the guy behind isn't too familiar with his ship the F-4U might be able to pull it off.
The spit will pull a lead for the shot if he is 400 yards behind. Even a P47 will since it has little to do with differences in turning ability.
Simple - the turning circles are not nearly co-centered and so the rear plane needs to turn fewer degrees. A break turn is effective only at very close ranges or very large speed difference.
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Any time I have run film, and something is on it that I'd like to keep, I will alt-tab to the desktop, and rename it as soon as I finish the sortie. Eventually anything with the defult name will go in the trash when I clean up the HD.
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I noticed noone mentioned this.... Spit 16's and 8's have the disadvantage of weaker wings, meaning less ability to handle extreme stress during manuevers. I would have hit the brakes, pulled a high G left or right yo-yo, forcing overshoot. If 16 attempted, to do same, wing breaks off ending your problem.
Oz
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Originally posted by ozrocker
I noticed noone mentioned this.... Spit 16's and 8's have the disadvantage of weaker wings, meaning less ability to handle extreme stress during manuevers. I would have hit the brakes, pulled a high G left or right yo-yo, forcing overshoot. If 16 attempted, to do same, wing breaks off ending your problem.
Oz
What you say is true from a taking damage standpoint (Spits are vunerable when taking hits) but I've never had the wings rip off a Spit in high-g manouvers and I've flow plenty of them past the edge of the flight envelope.
In dives I often find that as the airframe starts to groan and creak I have to literally force the nose down to manitain my dive or the Spit will want to climb itself out of that state. I also sometimes add a little rudder or move into a slight nose-low turn to get it to "slip" and maintain my E at that crtical point. The only consideration during a break manouver under those conditions is an extended blackout.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
Slapshot just listed my number one manouver 'try something, it might just work' :D
Or mine: Close eyes, shake the joystick and squeeze trigger.... you might hit something as he might have overshot you. :D
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
What you say is true from a taking damage standpoint (Spits are vunerable when taking hits) but I've never had the wings rip off a Spit in high-g manouvers and I've flow plenty of them past the edge of the flight envelope.
In dives I often find that as the airframe starts to groan and creak I have to literally force the nose down to manitain my dive or the Spit will want to climb itself out of that state. I also sometimes add a little rudder or move into a slight nose-low turn to get it to "slip" and maintain my E at that crtical point. The only consideration during a break manouver under those conditions is an extended blackout.
I guarantee, if you pull a high G turn( yo/reversal) while pulling up on stick in an 8 or 16, your wing will rip off. It does not happen with other spits because of the
eliptical edges. If you want, we can link up, you fly the 8 or 16, I guarantee that I'll get you to rip your wing off :)
Oz
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Originally posted by ozrocker
I guarantee, if you pull a high G turn( yo/reversal) while pulling up on stick in an 8 or 16, your wing will rip off. It does not happen with other spits because of the
eliptical edges. If you want, we can link up, you fly the 8 or 16, I guarantee that I'll get you to rip your wing off :)
Oz
You have no idea .
The Mk VIII has the same basic wing shape as the "other spits"
Except for the clip the Mk XVI has the same shape also.
The only spit that sheds wings easy is the Mk XIV.
Only because it over-speeds that much easier in a dive.
At the speeds sim was talking about in his original post.
My F4U-1A had bagged 3, and was moving generally north at 1K and 250 mph or so.
There is no way in hell the spit was going to shed wings. I don't care what type it was.
Bronk
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Originally posted by ozrocker
I guarantee, if you pull a high G turn( yo/reversal) while pulling up on stick in an 8 or 16, your wing will rip off. It does not happen with other spits because of the
eliptical edges. If you want, we can link up, you fly the 8 or 16, I guarantee that I'll get you to rip your wing off :)
Oz
Wrong. I've flown Spits as my primary ride for over 10 years in various sims. In Air Warriors you would have been right. Spits would rip wings in high speed dives. Not so in Aces High.
I've got literally thousands of hours in Spit V, VIII, IX, XVI and Seafire (very little time in I and XIV) and none of them will rip wings. You'll blackout first.
One of the great things about Spits is that they maintain so much energy in high G manouvers. You can ride the tunnel longer than in any other aircarft I've flown and, as I mentioned in my previous post they are still responsive and stucturally sound well past the point of airframe stress.
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If you're ripping wings in any airplane, at any speed, your joystick settings are probably messed up. Barring that, your trim is wacky.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Wrong. I've flown Spits as my primary ride for over 10 years in various sims. In Air Warriors you would have been right. Spits would rip wings in high speed dives. Not so in Aces High.
I've got literally thousands of hours in Spit V, VIII, IX, XVI and Seafire (very little time in I and XIV) and none of them will rip wings. You'll blackout first.
One of the great things about Spits is that they maintain so much energy in high G manouvers. You can ride the tunnel longer than in any other aircarft I've flown and, as I mentioned in my previous post they are still responsive and stucturally sound well past the point of airframe stress.
I have and can rip the wings off the MK XIV.
It was my fault and not the AC's though.
Bronk
Edit: Was done in high speed dive and no I didn't black out.
Also stick settings had nada to do with it.
I was over zealous with elevator input.
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i can rip the wings off any spit except maybe the mk1 with enough speed and full elevator deflections.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i can rip the wings off any spit except maybe the mk1 with enough speed and full elevator deflections.
Ohh I agree bat , but Ozrocker makes it sound like they fall off at combat speeds.
Bronk
Edit:
I point out the Mk XIV because it's the easiest to let get away from you.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
If you're ripping wings in any airplane, at any speed, your joystick settings are probably messed up. Barring that, your trim is wacky.
I can guarantee that if you pull hard out of a high speed dive with a F6F that you'll snap off half of each or at least 1 wing, at least with the rocket rails full. I know because it's my favorite attack plane and it's happened to me all too often.
Bronk, like I said, I haven't spent much time in a Spit XIV so you may be correct and no, you wouldn't black out in a straight dive but I thought we were talking about high G manouvers.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I dove to the deck and tried to outlast him, which was the wrong decision. He landed a few sprayed pings, The distance stayed at 400 as my slower acceleration and need to jink at least gently kept my from outpacing him, over a max 2-3 minute chase.
Any other thoughts from the gurus?
You said you dove.....once you get into the 350-400 mph range you have the spit where you want him. I don't know if you achieved this speed but at those speeds a spit CANNOT turn with an F4U. First leave yourself a few meters above the deck to nose dwn the flat turn. YOu have to make this manuver very high G. As you come out of blackout you should already be oppisite barrelling him. Find out where he is, if he followed you then flap and spiral climb staying out of his bullets. He will end up oin front of your guns. If he doesnt go with you make your barrel real tight and come in behind him. Either way Dead Spit! I would prefer the spit to be 600 out when this manuver is started as 400 is asking to be fodder. But in anycase, when you have a spit on your 6 in a hog, dive fro speed once you reach the 350-400 mph range this manuver works everytime. I will try to get some film of this as I have about 50 or so of this exact situation with me in a 1-hog! Manuverability at those speeds goes to the hog everytime!