Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: KrYp on January 14, 2007, 05:28:16 PM
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Hey everyone. Just want to first start off by saying this game is awesome:aok! I saw a commercial for this game watching Dog Fights on the History Channel. I just downloaded it on Saturday and I'm finding it almost immpossible to fly with my mouse, i've fiddled with it to try and adjust the sensitvity of it and what not. Still immpossible to use. So I was wondering what you all recommend for me to start out with. I'm really only looking into just buying one that I can use as a beginner and as I get better and better at the game. Any and all suggestions would be greatly appericated:D . Hope to eventually meet you all in combat. Thanks for the help. Sincerely, Adam
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Personally I prefer CH products
http://www.chproducts.com/
However stick, pedals, throttle, can set you back $300+ If you're not sure you're going to stick around that long you might want to consider something a little less expensive :)
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The CH seems to be the general concensus for a great stick but it's pricy. A bit more economical would be the Saitek X-52 which, like the CH has both a stick and separate throttle quadrant as well as a very large number of available buttons and controls. That'll run you about $100-$120 bucks for the stick/throttle then you can later add the pedals for another $100-$130 at a later date. Whatever you choose make sure you look for a significant number of programable buttons as well as rudder control (twisty or rocker style if you're not going to spring for pedals right away).
There's been a large number of posts for sticks so you should do a search to see the wide variety of recommendations. Good luck!
Mace
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I started with a ST290 and went from there. It retails for $30-$40
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At Walmart the other day I saw a new Saitek made specifically for flight sims. It had a view hat, twisty rudder, several programmable buttons and DUAL THROTTLES (for you P-38 and Mossie drivers . . . ).
IIRC, seemed like it was in the $20-30 range. Was also completely ambidextrious and could be set up for either hand, as well as adjusted up and down for size.
Don't remember the exact name, but I remember thinking this would probably be a good begining stick for people to try out AH until they decide if they're gonna stick around or not.
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Originally posted by SKJohn
At Walmart the other day I saw a new Saitek made specifically for flight sims. It had a view hat, twisty rudder, several programmable buttons and DUAL THROTTLES (for you P-38 and Mossie drivers . . . ).
IIRC, seemed like it was in the $20-30 range. Was also completely ambidextrious and could be set up for either hand, as well as adjusted up and down for size.
Don't remember the exact name, but I remember thinking this would probably be a good begining stick for people to try out AH until they decide if they're gonna stick around or not.
I think that's the "Aviator". It's an interesting looking stick but don't know how good it is.
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If your gonna buy a stick there are 2 features that I think are essential for this game Twist motion for rudder and some type of throttle control either on the stick or a seperate unit.
A quality stick really makes a difference for this addiction imo. However they can be quite costly...
When I first started out I just bought an inexpensive logitech twisty stick, while that stick lasted less than a year it got me started...I wouldn't recomend buying any logitech stick btw...Saitek makes some inexpensive models that may fit the bill...
Once you decide to stay around I'd recomend a Saitek X-52...
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Start here, there is no better place to start in my opinion. Cheap and functional.
CyborgEVO (http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-102989-Cyborg-Evo-Joystick/dp/B0000AW9P1/sr=8-10/qid=1168836953/ref=pd_bbs_10/105-9134480-7875636?ie=UTF8&s=electronics)
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I'd add an 8-way hat switch to the list of features your stick should have.
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do not buy a logitec sstick!!!
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I bought a Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro over 10 years ago. Mid-price range stick at the time. Still using it. Unfortunately I don't think they make them anymore.
It's a twisty stick with 7 buttons, trigger, 8 way hat switch and throttle slider. Thats probably about the minimum configuration you need.
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Originally posted by Fianna
I'd add an 8-way hat switch to the list of features your stick should have.
doh! I knew I was forgeting something
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Guys, what is so special about CH. I've seen and touched a CH yoke and joystick. The Yoke and Joystick feels too light and too cheap to be called industrial-made. I think my Microsoft Force Feedback 2 (i don't use feedback mode btw) has better internal components (optical sensors, not potentiometers to keep better track of the joystick) and it is heavier so it stays indefinitely on the table.
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I just retired my CH analog joystick, but only because it can't be programmed easily in XP, and run the "keyboard" emulation thru an XP computer didn't supply enough voltage to it thru the SB2 plug. I had used the stick for over 5 years, and had bought it off Ebay, so there is no telling how much use it had before me.
So acouple years in AW, and the rest here, and it was still solid as a rock! CH is the best! I've used Suncom, Thrustmaster, and MS sidewinder. Once I got mu CH I'll never go back. I have a full CH set-up all USB now, I'm good for life. Mine are velcroed down, so moving around isn't a problem, but for those who might, in the excitement of battle :) "throw" theirs off the desk, CH has parts avalible.
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Good stick to buy:
That very much depends on what you can/are willing to spend money wise.
What you definitly NEED is this:
8-way hatswitch
throttle lever
rudder control (twisty or rocker rudder)
as many buttons as you can get.
In the price range to 50 EUR, there are a few good sticks like the Saitek ST290 Pro or Saitek Evo, both being twisty rudder control (ie you need to twist the stick handle for rudder input). I myself used a Speedlink Black Widow (rocker rudder!) for over a year and with much success. Another good one low price are the Saitek Evo (twisty) and the Thrustmaster afterbutner II (can do both, twisty or rocker).
If you know youll stick with the game for a while, and can afford it, go for a Saitek X45 (rather stiff springs, rocker rudder) or a Saitek X52 (twisty and pretty loose springs). Those, combined with a set of rudder pedals, are fully HOTAS (ie you do not need to remove your hands from stick while fighting). They will cost you (without peds) about 100-130 EUR.
The top notch best thats out there is CH products. Joystick, throttle and pedals will cost you around 350-400 EUR. Those will last a lifetime though. This is something id only buy if youre sure youre going to be in the flight sim "business" for a while.
I started out with a 10 EUR stick (small throttle, no rudder, 5 buttons) - which was completely useless. Even before my free trial was out, i bought the Speedlink stick.... which was a very good deal for the money and got me a long way. In the long run, i needed more buttons for finer and quicker control in fights (no need to remove hand from stick to drop flaps etc) - im now on a X45 and CH pedals, that one by one will be replaced with CH stuff as they go out.
What you buy is kind of a personal preference. If you can do it, go to a media store and take a few sticks in your hands - see which one fits into your hands well. Youll also need to decide if you like twisty or rocker rudder better. Then google for the sticks and try to find a good deal on the web. Comparing prices can really pay off. Id be vary of used sticks from EBay - even if they are looking good and new on the outside, you cant see inside.... its usually not worth the reduced price. If you get new, youll always have a warranty.
Whatever you buy, stay away from logitech joysticks. They have a pretty low quality at the moment and usually only last a few months.
I hope this helps you a bit,
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What exactly is a rocker rudder? I can't stand most twist rudders, especially the one on this ST290 Pro I have right now, and I am actually doing a lot better using ASD on the keyboard for rudder inputs.
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Originally posted by herrhav0k
What exactly is a rocker rudder? I can't stand most twist rudders, especially the one on this ST290 Pro I have right now, and I am actually doing a lot better using ASD on the keyboard for rudder inputs.
(http://www.maximum3d.com/images/afterburner/rudder.jpg)
Its a rocker switch at the back of the throttle (operated with the fingers that grab around the throttle). It can be moved in both directions and is self centering if you let go of it.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Guys, what is so special about CH. I've seen and touched a CH yoke and joystick. The Yoke and Joystick feels too light and too cheap to be called industrial-made. I think my Microsoft Force Feedback 2 (i don't use feedback mode btw) has better internal components (optical sensors, not potentiometers to keep better track of the joystick) and it is heavier so it stays indefinitely on the table.
The fact that my Ch stick, throttle and pedals still works flawlessly after 11 years makes it special to me.
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Wow! Thanks to everyone for helping out! I really appericate it. I guess I need to do some more research and narrow down the selection. To also help I should mention I'm in a wheelchair. I've got Duchenne Muscular Dystorphy, my strength isn't that of a normal person so it limits my ability to use certain joysticks.
Dichotomy: Thanks for the info but that is well out of my price range.
Bad31st: Thanks, again i'm not sure if the "twist" motion will be something I can sustain for extended length of play and i'm not sure if that's best for me. I'll stay away from logitech lol.
Schatzi: Wow thanks for the in-depth response. Again I'm not sure if the twist type joystick would work for me. Do you think one that does the twist and rocker rudder together would be a better choice for me? I could see in the future upgrading to the X45 or X52, not the CH though, to exspensive. Yeah I was planning on buying brand new anyways.
Again thanks to everyone for the help. Hopefully it narrows down my selection but my phsyical condition will be the deciding factor in which type I get. I'm mianly looking for something that handles every aspect of the game and uses it to it's full potiental. Thanks again everyone. Sincerely, Adam
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Originally posted by KrYp
Schatzi: Wow thanks for the in-depth response. Again I'm not sure if the twist type joystick would work for me. Do you think one that does the twist and rocker rudder together would be a better choice for me? I could see in the future upgrading to the X45 or X52, not the CH though, to exspensive. Yeah I was planning on buying brand new anyways.
Kryp,
the best option would probably be to go to a local media/computer parts store where they actually *display* Joysticks they sell. Go there and take a few in your hand... to see what suits you best. Maybe you have a friend/neighbour (or his kids) that have a Joystick you can test and see what fits your special needs.
Otherwise, if you do not know which rudder type you can get along with better, a stick that offers both might well be a good choice. My boyfriend had the Thrustmaster Afterburner II (which offers both options) for almost a year. He did have durability issues especially with the hatswitch and some buttons towards the end. But Id say (he payed about 50 EUR, youll have to check the Web and see what prices you can get - depends a little on your location) for the price its something you can certainly try. Both the twisty and rocker switch are lightly operable, as well as the springs.
Im not very familiar with your medical condition, but reduced strenght could place a problem in both cases actually. To use a rocker rudder switch, youll basically only have the fingertips to push the switch... but on the other hand a twisty will force you to hold your wrist at rather unatural positions for some lengths of time... that will certainly need some strenght in the lower arms. In your case, id suggest you try looking for a stick that has rather loose springs and is lighter to operate. Probably only trying out will tell which suits you better.
Due to its pretty stiff springs and the very small ROM of the rocker, i wouldnt recommend a X45 in your case.
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Get a EVO twisty $38 at best buy. I also have a game pad $20 that i bought for throt and extra buttons. Been playing for almost 3 years and i really dont see the need to spend $150 when the EVO feels so good. Also my gunnery is better than the average rabbit..
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Originally posted by aztec
The fact that my Ch stick, throttle and pedals still works flawlessly after 11 years makes it special to me.
The joystick still works after 11 years despite that they only use springs and potentiometers??????
For some reason I'm still not convinced. I need reasons on why i should buy CH joysticks. Would i lreally last that long?
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Originally posted by 1K3
The joystick still works after 11 years despite that they only use springs and potentiometers??????
For some reason I'm still not convinced. I need reasons on why i should buy CH joysticks. Would i lreally last that long?
I got 2 complete gameport CH HOTAS setups ( CH Fighter Stick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pedals ( 1 pro 1 regular ))
1 set is around 11 years old, the other set is dated 97 so it is 9 or 10 years old, they both work wonderful without any problems, I use the batch file made from CH-Hangar forum to program in winXP.......works great ( thank you horn for the link )
the only thing to ever happen was a spring popped off on my oldest Fighter Stick, when I opened it up I crimped the wire connectors to make them fit more securely and in doing so it eleviated all the minor spikes I would have from time to time ( this was like 4 yrs ago I did this ).
The thing I love about the analog gameport models is the built in memory, where once programmed it stays even if you unplug it for months on end.
I have went thru 4 computers and still use the same joystick/HOTAS setup...... never changed a spring, never changed a potentiometer, did add some rubberbands and experimented with stronger springs before, but ended up going back to original configuration!!!! now my CH combat stick, I changed 2 potentiometers and fixed 2 wires that had become pinched, but it still works good as well, and I bought it in '96 ( the Jane's Combat Stick version )
THEY LAST...........that's that
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Originally posted by 1K3 I need reasons on why i should buy CH joysticks. Would i lreally last that long?
1K3,
You don't need me to tell you that you do and believe whatever you like. No problem there. As a guy who rips CH stuff apart on a daily basis doing all sorts of mods, I can personally tell you that the pots, switches and gimbals used in these things are second to none. I am still using CH hardware from almost 15 years ago. I bought my first FighterStick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals and used them for over ten years before I replaced them with new USB versions. I have since modded the old versions and am using them again for other projects. This stuff lasts forever.
The second reason CH controllers are second to none is the programmable software (Control Manager) that comes with all their stuff. There is almost nothing that cannot be programmed with CM. There is not a manufacturer out there that provides anything nearly as powerful as CM.
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Originally posted by 1K3
The joystick still works after 11 years despite that they only use springs and potentiometers??????
For some reason I'm still not convinced. I need reasons on why i should buy CH joysticks. Would i lreally last that long?
I still have my CH Flightstick that I bought in 1992 for Red Baron and Aces of the Pacific. I still play these sims today with that stick on a 486 I got for free.
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Hey KrYp,
I saw this (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196848) thread and thought you might be interested....
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Getting convinced yet?
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I just went to best buy today to test CH products. I'm convinced rthat their HOTAS are second-to-none. I am still having doubts about the CH rudders and CH sticks. I've had bad experience with joysticks that uses springs and potentiometers, such as excessive drifting. I wonder if that kind of problem will show up if i buy CH stick+pedals.
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Originally posted by 1K3
I've had bad experience with joysticks that uses springs and potentiometers, such as excessive drifting. I wonder if that kind of problem will show up if i buy CH stick+pedals.
http://www.provantage.com
http://www.securemart.com
http://www.newegg.com
check these website/webstores out for a good price........search for CH Products
as far as excessive drifting, my view is it would not be a problem..........but it is all in how you handle your equipment and take care of it............don't treat it like ya ballglove and throw it in the closet, treat it like a model or prized trophy when putting it away when not using it ;)
things seem to last longer when you go about it in that way.......
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Schatzi I probably should go a try some out but I'm tempted to just buy one know. I mean as long as I get one that supports both versions twist and rocker rudder I should be fine. Is the thrustmaster afterburner & thrustmaster afterburner II similar. I'm getting different info on ebay and just online. Some say the first afterburner has both and other sites say it has both twist and rocker rudder. Couldn't find the afterburner II on ebay other then a company that had used ones that where tested and supposedly work and I'm not sure if I should even bother at all. Yeah the rocker rudder seems to be what would work prefectly. I think the main thing is my wrist and hand would just get sore and tired if I had to use a twist type for a while. OK i'll stay away from the X45. Thanks again for the detailed response I really appericate the help. Sincerely, Adam
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the x45 is stiff, but the x52 does NOT have the rocker rudder....
personally i find the rocker rudder uncomfortable to use, as it is an awkward position when the throttle is maxed...
TIP for all who use that....
try "inverting" the throttle axis in AH... when the throttle is in the "up" position it is full throttle then, and you can reach the rocker and stuff better. takes only a few flights to get used to it.
as for worrying about a twisty stick KrYp... you don;t hold it twisted all the time, and it is usually a quite short throw (only turns about 1/4 to the right and 1/4 to the left)
most are quite soft, and easy to manipulate.
as for what brand... please stay away from logitech if you are buying online. if you were to go to a best buy, and get the service plan, you can go back in 2 months when it breaks and get a new one. they truly are terrible for reliability.
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Hey Mustaine. Yeah I think I'm going to get one that has both the twisty and the rocker rudder so I can mess around with both ways and see what works best. That's a great tip, I can see how that would be a problem if it wasn't inverted. Oh ok, see I was thinking you would be constantly twisting and holding it twisted for long extended amounts of time. If it's just every now and then that's ok. I still think i'll get one with both though just to see what I like. Yeah I've heard that a lot about the logictech. I've got one of there wireless mouses and haven't had any problems with it but I'll listen to people who've had bad experience's with their joysticks. Thanks for the info Mustaine:aok. Your name by any chance is that in relation to megadeath?? Thanks again. Sincerely, Adam
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Originally posted by KrYp
Hey Mustaine. Yeah I think I'm going to get one that has both the twisty and the rocker rudder so I can mess around with both ways and see what works best.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. There are no sticks with BOTH twisty and rocker controls, it's either one or the other (or none at all). Either will work and some prefer one over the other, it's a real "love/hate" type of thing. The best answer would be to get whatever stick offers the features you need regardless of whether it's a rocker or twist and plan on picking up pedals at some later date. In the end if you stay with the game you'll really want to switch to pedals anyway.
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i knew i'd be addicted so i went ahead and got the x-52
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Originally posted by Mace2004
I think there's a misunderstanding here. There are no sticks with BOTH twisty and rocker controls,
Mace, I was referring to the fact that the Thrustmaster Afterburner II has an either/or option.
It has both a twisty axis and a rocker switch. The two can NOT be operated at the same time. But you can use the twisty if you like. Or lock the twist motion with a switch on its bottom and use the rocker instead.
And only Kryp can answer this, but i think someone in a wheelchair that has a general muscle weakness will have a hard time operating rudder peds (I might be wrong here, its always worth a try!!). AFAIK DMD starts in the leg muscles and is progressive.
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Originally posted by KrYp
Your name by any chance is that in relation to megadeath?? Thanks again. Sincerely, Adam
Yup. My real life name is David, and I am a big Medageth fan. I actually ha a guitar signed by them. :aok
check what others have said... I don't know of a stick with both twist and rocker (though Schatzi says the thrustmaster does, I have never personally been in contact with that stick)
with muscle and hand weakness my first though (just now comes to mind duh lol) is a comfortable hat switch. I have a CH stick, and not so large hands. the hat switch is such a stretch i get cramps sometimes holding my thumb up there.
I am going to have to say, get to a bestbuy or similar, and physically try holding the stick.
the 2 biggest things you will be doing is using the Hat and the throttle (as far a moving around alot)
I think you will really appreciate doing that in the long run.
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The Saitek Evos can be adjusted to fit your hand. The rest for the heel of your hand is adjustable up and down for large and small hands and the top section with trigger and buttons gan be adjusted side to side and forward and back. I had one and it can be configured for just about any hand. I was even able to adjust it for left hand use. It's limited because its a stick only with a throtle lever and not a lot of buttons. To few for me. I believe the X-52 has the adjustable hand rest but I don't think it has the other adjustments. Take a look at Saitek.com.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Mace, I was referring to the fact that the Thrustmaster Afterburner II has an either/or option.
Ah, roger that Schatzi, I've never seen one and didn't go back to look at all of your original post. Just goes to show that reading a little closer keeps the student in all of us awake.:aok
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Schatzi: Yeah I'm not ever planning on using pedels of any kind because of the exact point you bring up. It starts in the calfs in the beginning, but eventually affects the entire body at this point in time.
Mace2004: I checked it out and it has the ability to do both as Schatzi stated, I'm going to at least go try some out first before I just jump into it.
Mustaine: Well it's a pleasure to meet you David. That's what I thought. They f**ing Rock! AHH dude that's awesome! My fav band is KoRn!!!! I love all kinds of metal. Yeah that's probably the best way to find out and to personaly hold them in my hand and see what's best. I'll keep that in mind when I'm looking as well. Yeah It will be better in the long run to try some out before buying one without knowing what it's like.
Thanks again everyone. Sincerely, Adam