Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on January 15, 2007, 12:20:32 PM
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I'm always amazed just how much "HO whinning" there is on 200. Yes they do happen {and yes 99% of them ar avoidable}. But I bet 80% of all HO whines are on shots just like this one.....(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/canopyshot.jpg)
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Yea, don't think he had gun solution on you there humble.
:lol :lol
Bronk
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High Deflection Shot
Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types.
Lots prefer to actually fight and earn the 6 six shot. Many, sadly are giving up because they feel that they "suck" and will never get better at dogfighting.
This picture is hard to tell what is going on here. We do not know if this was a head to head merge with your opponent trying to maneuver to get out the way and you taking a cheap shot.
Or this guy may have been trying to reverse on you and decided not to pull too hard, otherwise a head to head situation may occur and so he did his job of avoiding a possible HO.
One can explain this to many people over and over, but some people will just choose to not want to understand. Humble, it's up to you to realize what the true situation is.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
High Deflection Shot
Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types.
Lots prefer to actually fight and earn the 6 six shot. Many, sadly are giving up because they feel that they "suck" and will never get better at dogfighting.
This picture is hard to tell what is going on here. We do not know if this was a head to head merge with your opponent trying to maneuver to get out the way and you taking a cheap shot.
Or this guy may have been trying to reverse on you and decided not to pull too hard, otherwise a head to head situation may occur and so he did his job of avoiding a possible HO.
One can explain this to many people over and over, but some people will just choose to not want to understand. Humble, it's up to you to realize what the true situation is.
Film posted in help section.
Think you'll change your tune once you see it.
Bronk
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lol this ho debate will never die...if the two people didnt make each other targets it wouldnt have happend...I wont let someone come at me wondering if he will hold fire...Kill or be killed and hope the debris doesnt get you when its done.
90prf
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
High Deflection Shot
Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types.
Lots prefer to actually fight and earn the 6 six shot. Many, sadly are giving up because they feel that they "suck" and will never get better at dogfighting.
This picture is hard to tell what is going on here. We do not know if this was a head to head merge with your opponent trying to maneuver to get out the way and you taking a cheap shot.
Or this guy may have been trying to reverse on you and decided not to pull too hard, otherwise a head to head situation may occur and so he did his job of avoiding a possible HO.
One can explain this to many people over and over, but some people will just choose to not want to understand. Humble, it's up to you to realize what the true situation is.
To let you "earn" my 6 anytime your up to it. It seems to me that some people (are you one of them?) really dont understand ACM. Front quarter shots are an inherant part of aircombat and are central to the "two circle" fight which is just as "correct" as the more common one circle fight.
The bottom line is simple, both planes have boresighted guns (fighters). Your goal is to manuever your plane in such a way that you can damage/destroy the other guy. A good lead turn is not a HO, a good merge that leads to a front quarter shot on "remerge" is not a HO. A midgame defensive conversion to a two circle fight (what happened here) is not a HO.
Now the individual in question didnt call it such, I simply posted it here to clarify what appears to be a more and more common misconception. If you fly in front of the other guys gunsight dont get pissed if he shoots you:).
BTW I was actually defending against the FQ shot right up till I popped him in the canopy....
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
One can explain this to many people over and over, but some people will just choose to not want to understand. Humble, it's up to you to realize what the true situation is.
The true situation is that you no clue as to what you are talking about.
Why is Humble any less of a "fighter" pilot that you are just because he was able to maneuver into a position that gave him a fantastic front quarter angle shot? Why is anyone less of a "fighter" pilot than you because they don't wait until they only have a dead 6 shot? Why do you have such trouble comprehending what ACM is?
Take your moronic sense of elitism somewhere else.
ack-ack
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humble/snaphook is one of the top notch fighter pilots in AH, and even greater hog pilot. he's been training people for ages, even you would benefit from some sessions with him kermit, don't be so jumpy you silly muppet :p
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thinking what kermit was tryin to say is...you cant tell from the screenshot, if the la7 quit pulling and tried to do something to get out of way...after reviewing film, def not the case.
been many a time that i give up those shots (on me) by quit pulling on stick, cuz i see that if i do keep pulling, we will headon for possible collsion and HO shot at best, so ill back off stick and try to get under nose of con...doesnt always work. I know i take my fair share of high deflection shots... but irritates me when it happens to me...mostly because i shouldve seen it coming sooner and did something different and that i didnt keep pulling and at least get a shot because i know that the other guy wouldve and that he wouldve taken the HO shot or collided.
point is, i dont think he was really "attacking" humble for the shot he took...was giving his opinion on the screenie as compared to what he see's in game.
nice shot humble btw.:aok
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That is a beautiful front-quarter cockpit shot ... I'll take that one ALL day long in the MA.
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i agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died. i've been playing a year and the transition the game has taken in that time has been drastic and for the worse. i can't imagine what the gameplay phases have been like for some of u that have been playing for longer than me. i dont think anyone really cares to be good in 1v2 and 1v3 situations, everyone just wants thier name to pop up in the text buffer.
maybe i am being pessimistic. but finding someone interested in a good fight is getting to be rare. and i suppose i could go sit in the AvA and wait for 3 or 4 people to trickle in but that doesn't hold my attention for long.
i guess what i am trying to get at is i still haven't seen the advantages of the new multi arena format and all the changes that have come about since then. i am absolutely certain that the win the war style of gameplay is dead what with the introduction of the higher %, the uncapturable fields, and the lack of new maps. and i suppose the response to that is i should build new maps but what kind of service is HT providing when the consumer has to 1) pay for it all 2)create the conditions for the game to be played 3) applaud him the entire time.
so i will end the last bit of my rant on the the latest trend of the hurray hitech threads. i know 15 bucks aint a ton of money but i definetly dont send ford letters with my car payment thanking them for such a wonderful vehicle even tho the headlights dont work and the alignment is off.
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Originally posted by jhookt
i guess what i am trying to get at is i still haven't seen the advantages of the new multi arena format and all the changes that have come about since then. i am absolutely certain that the win the war style of gameplay is dead what with the introduction of the higher %, the uncapturable fields, and the lack of new maps. and i suppose the response to that is i should build new maps but what kind of service is HT providing when the consumer has to 1) pay for it all 2)create the conditions for the game to be played 3) applaud him the entire time.
so i will end the last bit of my rant on the the latest trend of the hurray hitech threads. i know 15 bucks aint a ton of money but i definetly dont send ford letters with my car payment thanking them for such a wonderful vehicle even tho the headlights dont work and the alignment is off.
:huh WTF????!!?????:huh
Holy whine batman.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
What has this to do with a front quarter deflection shot ?
The whine about arenas thread is about 5 or 6 pages back . Go whine there.
Bronk
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Originally posted by jhookt
i agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died.
Please tell us how that shot from Humble is an example of the "AH dream of being a good stick has died"? I mean, you've been here all of a year now, you should be able to answer such an easy question.
ack-ack
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"Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types"
simple enough or do u need it written in crayon
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Been there many times....often vs blukitty and other "reverse artists". And I whine as much as the next guy (or gal)). The fundemental truth is that 90% of the time the other guys nose is around 1st if you (me/we) back off. At best we have a tie but we "know" we cant get around. The simple truth is that "we" lost the fight a few monents earlier and just didnt find out till we were looking into the other guys muzzle.
The reality is that very little seperates the best pilots....often just a few degree's of angle seperate winning and losing when it comes to getting the nose around 1st. In this case however it was simply a true two circle fight, I had to defend the "HO" on the 1st pass and he kept pulling back into me into the second pass. I simply managed the "merge" (was in defensive leadturn) then relaxed the pursuit curve once it was clear he wouldnt get around). Had he successfully "HO'd" me it would have been nothing but poor flying on my part. He might well have felt the 3 20mm was a good match vs the ponies 4 x .50's.
This was exactly the shot I was looking for when I forced the two circle. Had he managed his E better I'd have rolled the otherway converted to a vertical lead turn and saddled up on him. I simply "cashed in" the shot I earned.
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Originally posted by jhookt
"Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types"
simple enough or do u need it written in crayon
Hahaha so the other guy got the nose around quicker.
Thus enabling him the front 1/4 shot.
Sounds like he fought better to me.
Watch the film. Humble fought for that shot .
Bronk
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Originally posted by jhookt
i agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died. i've been playing a year and the transition the game has taken in that time has been drastic and for the worse. i can't imagine what the gameplay phases have been like for some of u that have been playing for longer than me. i dont think anyone really cares to be good in 1v2 and 1v3 situations, everyone just wants thier name to pop up in the text buffer.
maybe i am being pessimistic. but finding someone interested in a good fight is getting to be rare. and i suppose i could go sit in the AvA and wait for 3 or 4 people to trickle in but that doesn't hold my attention for long.
i guess what i am trying to get at is i still haven't seen the advantages of the new multi arena format and all the changes that have come about since then. i am absolutely certain that the win the war style of gameplay is dead what with the introduction of the higher %, the uncapturable fields, and the lack of new maps. and i suppose the response to that is i should build new maps but what kind of service is HT providing when the consumer has to 1) pay for it all 2)create the conditions for the game to be played 3) applaud him the entire time.
so i will end the last bit of my rant on the the latest trend of the hurray hitech threads. i know 15 bucks aint a ton of money but i definetly dont send ford letters with my car payment thanking them for such a wonderful vehicle even tho the headlights dont work and the alignment is off.
Excuse me....
Your sure judging someone you dont know very well. I'm certainly far from the best pilot here (Biggles kind comments aside:))....but I meet the broader standard of a "good stick" by a wide margin.
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Originally posted by jhookt
i know 15 bucks aint a ton of money
Damn right. At my age, when it comes to entertainment, AH is definitely cheaper than Viagra.
Sad how the thread turned out.
Firstly, hoing typh rider talks bout cheap shots, then another guy takes the opportunity to rant about arena split...
Originally posted by SlapShot
That is a beautiful front-quarter cockpit shot ... I'll take that one ALL day long in the MA.
:aok
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i know its better piloting to work for the 6, but if he insists on giving me this silhouette, ill take them too. sometimes have more success at this angle than at 6 o clocks, alot more plane to shoot at :lol
and to the guy whos saying its a cheap shot, when in a good fight in the MA do you have the time to saddle up, playing the game from the angle of realism;
"holy f'in christ, i need to kill these guys before they kill me"
especially in a big furball, ill take any shot i can get to even the numbers, and reduce the threat.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Sad how the thread turned out.
:aok
lol it started out as a HO debate it was doomed to begin with.
Humble
i apologize if u took my post as a judgement upon you, it was not intended as such. kermit's comment sparked a thought in me that lead to post what i did.
sure it could be interpretted as an arena split whine but i have yet to put my finger on the reason behind the current gameplay trends. and i supppose that could be interpretted as a "play my way" whine but oh well i'm sure bronk will interject anyway he can
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Originally posted by jhookt
"Classic example that shows the "kill" types and not the "fighting" types"
simple enough or do u need it written in crayon
Again, how is that shot a classic example? It seems to me that for a player that has been here a whole whopping year, you really don't have a clue. Dismissed.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by humble
Excuse me....
Your sure judging someone you dont know very well. I'm certainly far from the best pilot here (Biggles kind comments aside:))....but I meet the broader standard of a "good stick" by a wide margin.
Oh yeah - if you're such a "good stick", then why are you skidding to the right in the pic you posted? A "real good stick" would have his turn and bank indicator centered at all times!
Just kidding!:D
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You bet your behind I'll "interject" .
Nothing to interpret, you said.
i guess what i am trying to get at is i still haven't seen the advantages of the new multi arena format and all the changes that have come about since then. i am absolutely certain that the win the war style of gameplay is dead what with the introduction of the higher %, the uncapturable fields, and the lack of new maps. and i suppose the response to that is i should build new maps but what kind of service is HT providing when the consumer has to 1) pay for it all 2)create the conditions for the game to be played 3) applaud him the entire time.
So it is a split whine.
Do you know what interpret means?
Bronk
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Originally posted by 1cemanVS
i know its better piloting to work for the 6...
No it's not. Just because a player maneuvers just to get a dead 6 shot doesn't make him any better than a player that maneuvers for an angle shot. The whole purpose of dogfighting is to maneuver so that you get shot on the enemy.
ack-ack
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sorry for the confusion ack-ack i will clarify. that particular shot is not the classic example, its the whole sortie as presented. he lost his advantage to the n1k and ran. not extended, ran. now surely i cant argue with playing to the 51B's strengths but i doubt the intent of cirling above an enemy base at 12k is 'looking for a good fight' the intent of his sortie was shown when he dove on the n1k his only failure that i can see is he didn't bring enuff wingmen to draw off some of the ack so he could BnZ and plane fresh off the deck with little concern.
and who are you to call some one an elitist with your whole "i fly a p38" garbage? pots and kettles
edit:
i pretty sure i stated i could see how it could be seen as a arena split whine. and is stooping to personal insults necessary or is that your personal MO?
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Originally posted by jhookt
sorry for the confusion ack-ack i will clarify. that particular shot is not the classic example, its the whole sortie as presented. he lost his advantage to the n1k and ran. not extended, ran. now surely i cant argue with playing to the 51B's strengths but i doubt the intent of cirling above an enemy base at 12k is 'looking for a good fight' the intent of his sortie was shown when he dove on the n1k his only failure that i can see is he didn't bring enuff wingmen to draw off some of the ack so he could BnZ and plane fresh off the deck with little concern.
and who are you to call some one an elitist with your whole "i fly a p38" garbage? pots and kettles
Yea.. lets just forget about those 3 kills he got.
On higher, more E cons.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
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Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
:D
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Originally posted by Bronk
Yea.. lets just forget about those 3 kills he got.
On higher, more E cons.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
really? cause when i watch the video both 38's only had 1k and 2k, now the lala did have quite an advantage.
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in·ter·pret /ɪnˈtɜrprɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tur-prit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate: to interpret the hidden meaning of a parable.
2. to construe or understand in a particular way: to interpret a reply as favorable.
3. to bring out the meaning of (a dramatic work, music, etc.) by performance or execution.
4. to perform or render (a song, role in a play, etc.) according to one's own understanding or sensitivity: The actor interpreted Lear as a weak, pitiful old man.
5. to translate orally.
6. Computers.
a. to transform (a program written in a high-level language) with an interpreter into a sequence of machine actions, one statement at a time, executing each statement immediately before going on to transform the next one.
b. to read (the patterns of holes in punched cards) with an interpreter, printing the interpreted data on the same cards so that they can be read more conveniently by people. Compare interpreter (def. 3).
–verb (used without object)
7. to translate what is said in a foreign language.
8. to explain something; give an explanation.
Sorry JH there was nothing to understand in a particular way.
You blatantly whined.
i guess what i am trying to get at is i still haven't seen the advantages of the new multi arena format and all the changes that have come about since then.
Whats there to interpret ?
Please enlighten me .
Bronk
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Originally posted by jhookt
really? cause when i watch the video both 38's only had 1k and 2k, now the lala did have quite an advantage.
Look at the speeds boyo.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Max
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
Jhookt : Oh Yeah?
Akak : Yeah!
:D
Damn it max. :furious :furious :furious :furious
You left me out .:p :lol
Bronk
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If someone crosses my guns on a high-deflection front quarter shot, I'm gonna take the shot... and if I get a kill, that's a solid kill. That's a difficult shot, much harder than a dead six shot. To say that it's not a fight is just silly.
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Originally posted by jhookt
and who are you to call some one an elitist with your whole "i fly a p38" garbage? pots and kettles
OK, so I fly a P-38? how is flying the crappiest plane in the game even remotely elitist?
ack-ack
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Ack-Ack when was the last time you were in main?
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Originally posted by FX1
Ack-Ack when was the last time you were in main?
What's that got to do with anything? But since you're dying to know, Sunday January 14th was the last time I was in the MA. Flew in Orange for a bit and then in Blue and then in MWA when the numbers were up in that arena. So what is your point?
ack-ack
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i thought i clarified a bit more in my apology post to humble, i guess i should try harder to make my points plain enough to prevent you from latching on to one particular sentece throughout the course of a conversation.
maybe i should resort to that tactic but then this would resort to you and i running in circles so allow me to revise and condense for you bronk.
i dont think that the game is improving as much as it has previously. it is my opinion that gameplay has fallen into a slump.
it is not my opinion that the shot shown at the top of this thread is a bad shot, but that the sortie in its whole is a representation of the current trend in gameplay, that i do not think is the best direction for the game. i understand that my opinion is 100% biased and that there are a great many number of reasons for current course within the game.
ack-ack
flying the 38 is not elitist at all but how u present yourself is. to assume that u could dismiss me from the thread for only playing a year is an example of that
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Just asking never ever see you in main. Talking smack to others that are active in the game. I was hoping that you weren't becoming a bbs pilot and not playing the game.
Humble i will take that shot every time.
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No score? You using a shade?
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FX1
check his sig
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Originally posted by 1cemanVS
"holy f'in christ, i need to kill these guys before they kill me"
was this TEXT really needed to get your point across? com'on now
nice shot humble!!!
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Originally posted by FX1
No score? You using a shade?
Why would I use a shades account?
Might want to try searching my score under AKAK as that's my in game CPID.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by jhookt
it is not my opinion that the shot shown at the top of this thread is a bad shot, but that the sortie in its whole is a representation of the current trend in gameplay, that i do not think is the best direction for the game. i understand that my opinion is 100% biased and that there are a great many number of reasons for current course within the game.
How was that sortie bad game play?
Humble made a few passes on a better turning ac and disengaged. He then got to approximately 8k when engaged by a 38. Shot that one down. Started his ascent but was engaged by yet another 38. Ohh shot that one down too.
Surely must be safe to start going up now? Nope, alt monkey LaLa. What to do? I know shoot that one down also.
How was that bad game play? Because humble didn't keep turn fighting the first con when he lost advantage?
Please explain your reasoning.
I think that was great game play . Humble flew smart , killed a few enemies and had fun.
Bronk
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i agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died. i've been playing a year and the transition the game has taken in that time has been drastic and for the worse.
For the most part ... the "dream" was already dead before you joined.
I guess your reference to the "dream" must be from what you have read ... rather than experienced.
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It's hard to call for turn-fights only with the variation in the planes. I don't expect a FW190D to turn fight with anyone except perhaps another FW190D in which case the winner would probably get slow and knocked off by a better turn-fighter.
I think we would have to have a less diverse plane set if we want more one-on-one type of turnfights. If everyone flew the same spit, then everyone can go into a turn fight knowing that they can win it. I personally like the diversity in the plane set and the diversity in styles.
I do have to admit that it's hard to get in slow turnfights with multiple cons without ack cover. You are vulnerable and it can be hard to land any kills you get. I'm very impressed by people who can land kills with slow turn-fight planes when away from their own base and without overwhelming numbers.
As far as HO. I got HO by a mossie. I got roped by a bomber! It was embarassing as I made a stupid mistake trying to "race" others in getting the kill. That was an example of excellent ACM that did not involve turning and was a front quarter shot.
It's all good.
Venom
P.S. Fly a Dora if you want to turn fight. I'm sure you will get many takers. :aok
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the dream lives on in those who let it, and those who let the dream live on dont worry about the rest of the players.
that was a nice shot on the la7, not easy to get good damage on enemy in that shot.....i would only not take that shot if it was the first merge.
for the record, Kermit would destroy 90% of the people in this thread in a one on one fight in almost any planes.
its the more modest players like kermit, who kick arse all day and never get recognition.
anyone who doesnt believe me can ask him to DA.
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LOL, i've had someone criticise me for taking "HO" shots like this before. Firstly, the name of the game is kill or be killed, and i will never give up a shot to end a fight to appease someone else sense of "fairness". I may choose to give up the shot if i think the bogey has a guns solution on me. E.G. if its a true HO (where we BOTH have a firing solution) then i'll tend to opt out and use that time for a lead turn attempt for the next and impending follow-up turn. I do this not due to any sense of "fairness", but purely from a self-defensive perspective and also from a tactical perspective (lead turn).
If i have a front-quarter high-deflection snapshot opportunity like this, it's simply because my opponent didnt manage to turn more and faster to do it to me. Whether they decided to or were unable to is immaterial. If they decide not to, then thats their choice, but anyone who knows ACM will realise that there is a high chance that by doing a low-g turn, your opponent takes the high-g turn it will lead them getting the snapshot as pictured above - they must realise this and have accepted it as a possibility and taken contengency measures to avoid it (eg getting out-of-plane etc). Its basic ACM, turn harder you win angles, but loose relative E; turn with less Gs you loose angles but gain relative E. If they were simply UNABLE to turn around quickly enough and were actually TRYING too, but just couldnt match opponents turn rate, then they lost the fight fair and square: they were probably the victim of a lead-turn and/or poor speed-control.
I really cant see why people can complain about getting shot down in this fashion. Its not really a pure HO, its a front-quarter snap-shot where only one has the guns solution.
All this BS about 'fairness' and stuff is just that: BS. Why on earth should people fight a contrived and prolonged battle for your opponents 6 when there are plenty of opportunities to end it earlier than that?? And where do you draw the line between a "fair" snapshot and an "unfair" one? 90 deg? 91deg, 85.87989deg AOT?? There's no such thing as "fair" or "unfair" snapshots, just snapshots.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
i agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died. i've been playing a year and the transition the game has taken in that time has been drastic and for the worse.
For the most part ... the "dream" was already dead before you joined.
I guess your reference to the "dream" must be from what you have read ... rather than experienced.
I wonder how much of this apparent "change" is simple dilution.
I mean, there are so MANY more players than at the start of AH. Lots of those are playing for the game experience, or to be with friends in a squad. Some get good enough that they're "OK", whereever "OK" is for them. Some want to get "good", and stop when they can consistantly land kills.
But are there really fewer people who "dream of being a great pilot"? I don't know, and I wasnt here back in the day.
I do know that I want to keep getting better. Not just at killing stuff, but better at knowing ACM. Knowing what works and what doesnt, thinking 3D in real time, mastering the envelope for the plane.
None of this comes naturally for me. Every stride I make comes because I worked at learning it, and probably got someone to teach it to me. Passion for flying keeps me going, and I can't forsee that changing. It'll take me longer than the guys like Pooface and Morpheus, but I think I'll keep getting better up till the limit of my physical reflexes and dexterity.
That dream isnt dead -- even if the guys who have it are like needles in haystacks, we're out there!
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Nice HO, why the aversion to calling it that ?
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
its the more modest players like kermit, who kick arse all day and never get recognition.
It was not about recognition nor modesty, it was about "practice what you preach", or "why my shot is beautiful and your is cheap" in particular (in reference to Kermit's first post).
Perceived moral superiority is not an excuse for double standard.
Translation: Kermit's superior skills doesn't make him right in this case.
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That was some better than average flying. I know this because I'm an average stick, and that was better than mine.
As far as I can tell, you flew smart and held your own against aircraft which had the advantage over you, with the exception of the niki, and it looked like he ran into the ack, which I guess would also be considered an advantage. I guess I don't understand where jhookt or Kermit see a problem. I do know that that was good flying.
Originally posted by Suave
Nice HO, why the aversion to calling it that ?
Because it wasn't Head On?
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You can plainly see it was a face shot aka head on.
For as many HO whiners there are just as many "was not a HO" whiners.
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Head On is when BOTH pilots have gun solution.
One in that pic clearly doesn't.
Bronk
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No it isn't.
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Ok Suave please explain what is a head on?
This should be good.
Bronk
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A head on is what used to be called face shooting. Basically shooting a guy as you merge.
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1st and formost as initially stated that is simply NOT a head on. The con had no shot opportunity and did not defend against my shot opportunity. Call it what you will, but dont call it a "HO".
With regard to "the dream". I've flown since AW on Genie (very briefly) and "fulltime" since AW on AOL (1992??). While far from the "top of the hill" I'm even farther from the bottom of the pile. I normally fly a hog of some flavor but you'll find me in a 205, P-40, P-47 or 109 alot more often them you'll find me in a la-7, spit etc. I'm much more of an angles fighter then an E fighter and never fly true B&Z. I often engage against greater higher numbers so these comments specific to me a are a bit ludicous. I've also spent time here as a trainer and still work with newer squaddies as well as others from time to time.
If anyone wants to review any clip i've put up you'll see I almost never take a questionable shot. I've got a spit9 vs ki-84 clip (schreck) were we come togeather in a "dueling merge"...we darn near collide but neither of us was worried about a "HO" (we khew it was "us").
For those interested here is the lala fight cut out in a seperate clip.
"HO" (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/HOlala.ahf)
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Originally posted by Suave
You can plainly see it was a face shot aka head on.
For as many HO whiners there are just as many "was not a HO" whiners.
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And you're a Not a HO whiner.
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I go all thr way back to AW on Gwnie and that was no "faceshot". Watch the clip and comment. I set up a two crircle fight and he pulls into me and I avoid his front quarter set up (which might have met the old "face shot" criteria since it was technically a "remerge". If you look he's pulling back up and into me looking for a HO (just guessing) and i'm defending (nose in lead and out of plane) If I go vertical i'm giving him a vertical lead turn (doubt he had E but still). If I go straight i'm giving up my angles to no advantage. The shot was there and I took it. At no time in any dueling enviorment (let alone the MA) would this be construed as an unfair shot. He had the same obligation to defend his position as i did on the 1st "two circle" pass. If we were in a rolling scissors I wouldnt be expected to pass on my shot because he almost "got around"....this is the same exact fight in two circles instead of one.....
so not only wasnt it a HO....it wasnt a face shot either.
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Originally posted by Suave
A head on is what used to be called face shooting. Basically shooting a guy as you merge.
So any shot in front of your 3-9 line is a face shot then I'll guess.
:lol :lol
Bronk
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Originally posted by Suave
A head on is what used to be called face shooting. Basically shooting a guy as you merge.
Watch the film with trails on and you'll cleary see intersecting angles of both planes, which you wouldn't see if it was a head on "face shot" like you're assuming it is.
ack-ack
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Didnt watch the film. At a glance this screen shot appeared to me to be an opposing two circle fight where the shooter had the inside line, and the plane on the outside line would never have a shot on that merge. Defining that as a HO is obtuse.
Now the critics appearently pointed out that it could have been a situation where the other plane was trying to avoid a HO or collusion. If that were the case they still deserved to get shot for avoiding so poorly.
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A frontal shot, face shot, ho are all the same thing. The USN says that 45 degree frontal deflection is HO, that's good enough for me.
Some people get all bent when you call a frontal shot a ho or face shooting, I'm not sure why that is.
Kermit is right, you just took an opportunistic shot as your planes were flying in opposite circles.
A HO shot, or if it makes you feel better, a "frontal aspect shot"
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Originally posted by Suave
You can plainly see it was a face shot aka head on.
For as many HO whiners there are just as many "was not a HO" whiners.
Wow.... Member since 12/02 and 2600 posts later, you still don't know what a "head on" shot is?
BTW, I'll HO you in a heartbeat, just because that's what you've presented me. I've decided that I can't beat them, so I'll join them. I know what a HO is, and that isn't one.
(Fortunatly, I can avoid getting into that position half of the time I up. I'm usually flying an AC with low/no cannons, so it's in my best interest to avoid going HO. But if I can't, I'll go down with all guns blazing....)
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Originally posted by Suave
A frontal shot, face shot, ho are all the same thing. The USN says that 45 degree frontal deflection is HO, that's good enough for me.
Link or some other evidence like scanned USN data sheet stating same.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Suave
Kermit is right, you just took an opportunistic shot as your planes were flying in opposite circles.
But Kermit made it sound like it was a bad thing.
BTW, I was never navy. My father-in-law was, and there are some things he says that just make me stop and stare. Telling me what the navy considers "head on" is one of those things.
"Flacco" considers anything head on a HO, everything else isn't.
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Originally posted by TexInVa
Wow.... Member since 12/02 and 2600 posts later, you still don't know what a "head on" shot is?
BTW, I'll HO you in a heartbeat, just because that's what you've presented me. I've decided that I can't beat them, so I'll join them. I know what a HO is, and that isn't one.
(Fortunatly, I can avoid getting into that position half of the time I up. I'm usually flying an AC with low/no cannons, so it's in my best interest to avoid going HO. But if I can't, I'll go down with all guns blazing....)
I've been a member for years longer than that. And I do know what a HO is in real world and in dweeb nomenclature.
Mainly it's former AW players that are bitting thier pillows about what is or isn't a HO. Because AW was such a crappy game, HO shots almost never ever landed, they were basically disabled. When AW finally died the AW players came over to AH and pissed their pants when confronted with the frontal aspect shooters
This is turning into an entertaining HO whiner thread.
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Originally posted by Suave
you just took an opportunistic shot
Most of the shots for most of the players are.
If you enter the time, angle and rounds fired of your shots into flight plan and manage to stick to it, then more power to you :noid
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Originally posted by Suave
A frontal shot, face shot, ho are all the same thing. The USN says that 45 degree frontal deflection is HO, that's good enough for me.
Some people get all bent when you call a frontal shot a ho or face shooting, I'm not sure why that is.
Kermit is right, you just took an opportunistic shot as your planes were flying in opposite circles.
A HO shot, or if it makes you feel better, a "frontal aspect shot"
And that is not ment as an attack of any kind. He's an outstanding stick and seems to be a nice guy...BUT...this is ACM as valid as any other. A two circle fight is defined by its intersection just like a 1 circle fight is governed by forcing the other guy out in front or saddling up. This shot was set up when I declined the "looping fight" and forced him back to my true 6. So by Kermits definition the con had my "6" and simply didnt expoit it. I chose to "force" a 2 circle fight since it was the best option I had. He had every opportunity to deny that fight and force me back into an alternate setup. That "HO" took a significant amount of ACM to accomplish and was a valid shot solution. It was also the tactically correct decision. Since it was actually a lead turn which put me on the bogies 6 at tis conclusion.....
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If I didn't "suck in the Arenas", I would have posted something more constructive.
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Ok guys, pay attention....
This is an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/FM2-HO.jpg)
This is not an HO, but a close front quarter shot:
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/FM2Whack2.jpg)
This shot, is absolutely not an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/FM2Whack4.jpg)
Any questions?
Filmed during a TA duel with a two-round winner of the 2006 KOTH Championship... We had about two dozen nose to nose merges. We took every HO we got. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Bronk
Link or some other evidence like scanned USN data sheet stating same.
Bronk
Still waiting Suave.
:aok
Bronk
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Originally posted by Suave
A frontal shot, face shot, ho are all the same thing. The USN says that 45 degree frontal deflection is HO, that's good enough for me.
[/i]
I understand your point, but I honestly don't care what the Navy calls it... This isn't the Navy. We set our own definitions. As long as I've been here, what classifies an HO is when both parties can get a guns solution.
My regards,
Widewing
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If you do not like HO passes, stay out from the front of the other planes. Otherwise, Blast away in their face. Kill em any way you can. Ram em if you feel like it. Any kill works. If you get HOd its your own fault. When you die in the animated airplanes, you get a new one right away. Don't cost a thing. Sorry if it takes the fun away from someone, that is their problem. The red baron took people out by coming in from the sun and other tactics. Im sure that seemed unfair to the people that feared him. It is a game, have some fun thats an order. Practice on your HO skills also. It can be fun.
-SR-
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In a pure 1 on 1 fight with no outside interference, on the very first merge I generally won't take a high deflection shot or any shot for that matter, just because if I were to land those shots and pop him as we passed each other, it would make for a really short and uneventful fight. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's unfair to take those shots on the first merge, but I wouldn't want a potentially good 1 on 1 fight lasting only 5 seconds.
In a perfect world I'd like my opponent to do the same, but I know that doesn't happen much in the MA of AH, and luckily it is usually pretty easy to avoid.
Humble and the Lala had already been engaged when the shot in question was taken, and IMO anything goes after the first merge. Even if it had been a HO (it wasn't), all bets were off since the fight was already in progress.
My 2 cents
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Originally posted by Suave
I've been a member for years longer than that. And I do know what a HO is in real world and in dweeb nomenclature.
Mainly it's former AW players that are bitting thier pillows about what is or isn't a HO. Because AW was such a crappy game, HO shots almost never ever landed, they were basically disabled. When AW finally died the AW players came over to AH and pissed their pants when confronted with the frontal aspect shooters
This is turning into an entertaining HO whiner thread.
I hate to break my record of never ever being skuzzyfied, but I can't seem to come up with a better way to put it.....You're an idiot.
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It's a HO. Slightly more acceptable than the typical long distance joust... but it's still a HO. Good 38 drivers'll never admit it... none of the tight-turner driver's will, it would be a slap to thier "skill". None the less, a Ho is a Ho is a Ho... just because you can get your ride around tighter than the next guy does not make it something other than what it is.
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ok, this is just my opinion, but first thing i thought when i seen humbles pic he posted was that it was a " high deflection shot " that was first thing. i agree with kermit, not only because he's a squadie and a friend but he is the one that taught me alot bout flyin and this game and acm's. i also agree with batfink that kermit would own 90% of yall, you guys got to remember one thing...kermit doesnt get the recognition that he deserves and he's quiet bout when he's fighting...but its the quiet ones u have to watch out for. just my 2 cents.
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ok, this is just my opinion, but first thing i thought when i seen humbles pic he posted was that it was a " high deflection shot " that was first thing. i agree with kermit, not only because he's a squadie and a friend but he is the one that taught me alot bout flyin and this game and acm's. i also agree with batfink that kermit would own 90% of yall, you guys got to remember one thing...kermit doesnt get the recognition that he deserves and he's quiet bout when he's fighting...but its the quiet ones u have to watch out for. just my 2 cents.
100% Agree with betty....
Now its time for bed mommy said so:(
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A "high deflection shot" is not a "HO" plain and simple. Further a two circle fight is a valid and historically correct dogfight which occured with some regularity. The shot solution depicted is every bit as valid as a scissor, overshoot or reversal in a one circle fight. Especially in the context that this fight occured. The la-7 fired on the earlier "face to face" meeting and was clearly pulling for a second shot attempt. As for kermit....well he's one of about 500 real good sticks who probably sont get the crdeit they "deserve".
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I die alot. And I loose a lot of duels/fights because I rarely tend to take those high deflection shots. For reason of not wanting to HO and also for reason of my bad gunnery skills... Id miss, even if Id shoot.
But I realise that my very own "code of Honor" in the game. I do not expect anyone else to follow it. Nor do I call it out as HO if I get shot in that manner. Any time the opponent gets his guns on me is MY fault for not avoiding that.
That doesnt mean I wont get frustrated at some people that seem to do nothing more then go for a HO - extend - reverse - HO - ... rinse and repeat.
Also, I make a distinct difference between MA and DA. MA, anything goes... if im p**** off, its entirely my own frustration speaking for not flying smart enough to avoid it. (The odd exception just causing me to pick another fight).
In the DA, I definitly prefer to fight people that "do not go for the kill" as quick as possible (ie take any very high deflection shot they may get). I go to the DA to fight, not to practice my takeoffs :).
I realise thats my own take on things. I never at any point expect the same thinking from anyone else.
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I think I fought snaphook a few weeks ago in the MA and he didn't HO on our close merges. I do, however, find this shot in this clip to be less than ownage! I never feel like I owned a fella by taking this shot on him! :aok
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i agree with u schatzi, i dont take high deflect shots or HO shots..mainly cuz the frog yells at me if i do...hehe
also cuz i like to have a fun fight that last for a few mins. thats what the game is about to me.
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Someone here is averaging about 2.4 posts per day. Dang! I think HiTech should implement a 12 step program ;)
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Originally posted by -SR-
The red baron took people out by coming in from the sun and other tactics. Im sure that seemed unfair to the people that feared him. It is a game, have some fun thats an order. Practice on your HO skills also. It can be fun.
-SR-
To be fair, the majority of the Red Baron's kills weren't fighter but rather 2 seat recce/scout planes and they weren't head on shots but coming in from the Sun at high altitude and speed.
Beware of the Hun in the Sun...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SkyRock
I think I fought snaphook a few weeks ago in the MA and he didn't HO on our close merges. I do, however, find this shot in this clip to be less than ownage! I never feel like I owned a fella by taking this shot on him! :aok
I dont ever HO on any merge or on any "known enemy" that i know will fly by "DA rules". that doesnt make a shot like this a "HO". In the particular context of this fight this was exactly the shot you work for. The lala had plenty of time to alter his tactic. My point was and is simply that this wasnt a HO. It also wasnt a "cheap" shot by any means. Now if its a scenario like you and I then I'd pass on that shot....because I know your not taking it either....in effect when we meet we fight "DA rules"...same with me and shreck, Greebo or a host of others. But none of "you" would have given me that look anyway. If you look at the clip I have a clear profile shot (admitidly long range) and watch him continue to pull up and in to me. I actually establish a defensive posture initially and as he continues to pull he creates a scenario where the shot I took is the best course of action for me....so i pop him. You'd have been setting up a reverse challenging me to drop my nose so you could "flip me" on the reverse:) and draw me into a (for me) nose down rolling scissors giving you the initial up leg since i dropped into the shot. Had he flown the "good fight" (a lower flatter reverse forcing a true "top down" shot) then he'd have forced me to break away or accept a losing scissors fight.
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Originally posted by Tumor
It's a HO. Slightly more acceptable than the typical long distance joust... but it's still a HO. Good 38 drivers'll never admit it... none of the tight-turner driver's will, it would be a slap to thier "skill". None the less, a Ho is a Ho is a Ho... just because you can get your ride around tighter than the next guy does not make it something other than what it is.
If you can get your plane to turn tighter to take advantage of your better turning radius as opposed to the better turn rate of the other plane which will force the other plane to cross your nose in a turn is not a HO shot but a perfect deflection angle shot. You can argue all you want that it's a HO shot but the facts will prove you wrong.
ack-ack
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You can shoot him, he can't shoot you. By my lowly, Joe Averagecartoonpilot standards, that's a good solution.
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i usually never HO, unless upping from capped base, someone trying to vulch, or in a fight with several cons trying to kill me and it seems like a good option. one shot, that i will never ever pass up, is a shot where the con continues to pull into me to put him nose to nose. you have that position, i'm gonna stand my ground there and open up. i don't care who is going to call it a HO, it is one fight that con will not win....they lost already if in that position. just my experience from that situation nothing really positive comes from it.....if he keeps coming around, maybe you will be the one screaming HO dweeb. some may not like this shot, but rarely do i fight in an area where prolonged fights last before someone else and 5 of his buddies are making me next on their list.....none of which have any problems with opening with the HO. HOing is part of air combat, it is risky and somewhat suicidal in AH. i would prefer to utilize my time instead of wasting it on a HO, just not that great of a tactic, though sometimes you gotta work with what you got.
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This IS a HO
(http://tvmegasite.net/images/primetime/hihoney/hooker.jpg)
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Originally posted by KONG1
This IS a HO
(http://tvmegasite.net/images/primetime/hihoney/hooker.jpg)
mom?:(
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Originally posted by Slash27
mom?:(
:rofl
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where is this film everyone is talking about?
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agree with kermit. the typical AH dream of being a good stick has died. i've been playing a year
Hehehehe.. the season had long passed before you ever took flight in this game, young padawan. A year........ still in swaddling clothes you are. No offense intended.
Good shot Humble. This is a long way from a HO. The accepted definition of a HO is a merge where both pilots have a gun solution, at least an opportunity to fire on the opponent. This doens't occur, hence this is a high deflection shot and not an HO.
Considering this is the MA and one needs to kill the bad guys expeditiously in order to prepare for/fight others, the person talking about "earning a six shot" lives in an idealistic, fantasy world and must find the chaos of the MA, with it's muiltiple bogie fights, to be most unsatisfying.
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Geez...this like a time warp or something...:lol
I haven't logged in here in ages and the same people are STILL arguing about HO's!
It's amazing...or terrifying...or just plain silly.:rolleyes:
Anyways, nice to see things haven't changed much I suppose.
Happy new year all!
kb
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Originally posted by Widewing
Ok guys, pay attention....
This is not an HO, but what happens when you try to avoid the HO:
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/FM2Whack2.jpg)
My apologies to Widewing for altering his post.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If you can get your plane to turn tighter to take advantage of your better turning radius as opposed to the better turn rate of the other plane which will force the other plane to cross your nose in a turn is not a HO shot but a perfect deflection angle shot. You can argue all you want that it's a HO shot but the facts will prove you wrong.
ack-ack
Look at it like this... at some point in that turning whateveryoucallit... it becomes less HOish. But, in the end, it's still just so much HO style firing. Here's another angle... would those shots have registered in AW? No, most wouldn't. Why? Because HO's were/are/will be a pain in the oscar that most would rather do without. I'm not saying in any way these are shots that should not be taken... I would. But this is just a part of the reason I no longer engage in the tight turning stall fight. 9 times out of 10 you end up in a joust, if and ONLY if someone else doesn't jump in cherry one of ya.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I understand your point, but I honestly don't care what the Navy calls it... This isn't the Navy. We set our own definitions. As long as I've been here, what classifies an HO is when both parties can get a guns solution.
My regards,
Widewing
I think the definition of the HO started to be confused about 7 years ago when the phrase face shooter fell out of favor. From then grew the "it takes two to HO" fallacy.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I hate to break my record of never ever being skuzzyfied, but I can't seem to come up with a better way to put it.....You're an idiot.
Ad hominem is what people do when they know they're wrong but they still want to say something anyway.
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I've been a member for years longer than that. And I do know what a HO is in real world and in dweeb nomenclature.
Mainly it's former AW players that are bitting thier pillows about what is or isn't a HO. Because AW was such a crappy game, HO shots almost never ever landed, they were basically disabled. When AW finally died the AW players came over to AH and pissed their pants when confronted with the frontal aspect shooters
This is turning into an entertaining HO whiner thread.
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Originally posted by Widewing
As long as I've been here, what classifies an HO is when both parties can get a guns solution.
My regards,
Widewing
Can't argue with that.
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I understand that in technical terms a HO is a head-on merge where both parties have a gun solution. But I think you only hear things on 200 like "nice HO dweeb" when one plane does not fire on the first merge in an attempt to set up a decent fight, and the other plane does.
Sure, they both could come out guns blazing, but one of them may think it's cheap and unfair, and that clash of opinions is when people start crying on 200.
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After watching the film.
#1 that was not a HO.
#2 If the LA or anyone else in the MA had that shot they would and should take it.
#3 When a shot like that used to present itself, i would start getting that dopey gallantry feeling, and hold fire thinking to myself i don't want to be accused of a HO shooter on 200. Sometimes i would be able to saddle up on their 6 and make the kill like a "good guy" would. But sometimes after another merge or two, the enemy would have the same shot on me, take it, and shoot me down. I would then think to myself, who's the good guy now dik.
:lol
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Originally posted by Bronk
Link or some other evidence like scanned USN data sheet stating same.
Bronk
Again still waiting Suave.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Tumor
Look at it like this... at some point in that turning whateveryoucallit... it becomes less HOish. But, in the end, it's still just so much HO style firing. Here's another angle... would those shots have registered in AW? No, most wouldn't. Why? Because HO's were/are/will be a pain in the oscar that most would rather do without. I'm not saying in any way these are shots that should not be taken... I would. But this is just a part of the reason I no longer engage in the tight turning stall fight. 9 times out of 10 you end up in a joust, if and ONLY if someone else doesn't jump in cherry one of ya.
1st,
That shot would have registered in AW (IMO){maybe HT/Pyro could clarify how that aspect of the "hit bubble" worked}. The shots strike the plane from cockpit to tail from an angle...not thru the frontal aspect of the plane.
2nd,
That was not anywhere near a stall fight. Just basic ACM with neither plane anywhere near stall. This was a simply a bounce that got converted to an E fight then a "once circle" fight and finally a 'two circle" fight. On the 1st 2 circle merge I was totally defensive. the bandits shot selection on the initial 2 circle merge created an opening which I went out of plane to exploit. His continuation of the 2 circle created both a shot opportunity and a potential risk in "evading". If you look at the clip the shot is actually nothing more then a lead turn that creates a small window (which I use) and places me roughly 800 behind (a gap I wouldnt have closed).
Basically what I'm getting out of this is that a pretty large subset of the population doesnt really understand ACM. The "two circle" fight is a very valid tactic. It's most commonly seen in the MA used by both Hurricanes and IL-2's as a vertical "two circle fight" where they loop up into the higher con meeting each "attack". you will also see alot of low spit drivers use the same tactic. I'm always amazed at the "HO" whines this generates. The higher faster con controls the fight but "complains" when his lack of fundemental ACM leads to a "HO". Its also seen used by tiffie drivers like coach who often create a front aspect shot by converting your defensive move into a two circle fight and getting around quicker. You also see it with 109's and C hog's......
If your in a one circle fight you cant win, try the two circle fight
:aok
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I only complain about ho'ing when it happens when they have an obvious advantage in numbers.
5 nikis on my p51 and one comes nose to nose and rips your prop with cannon.
It ticks me off.
Would it happen in real life, maybe. It still pisses me off though.
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Some rambling thoughts:
(1) Defining HO's reminds me very much of the definition of ACM. In the USAF ACM has a strict definition and that is used for maneuvers in a 2v1 where aircraft are working in concert. Yet people here use ACM to mean 1v1 maneuvering. So in the same way folks will call Forward Quarter shots HO's.
(2) A face shot is a face shot no matter if you're 0 lead angle off the nose going "beak to beak" or if the shooter has 60 degree lead angle off of the bandit's nose. The target is being shot in the forward quarter.
(3) There's no shame in taking a HO or forward quarter shot. A shot is a shot. The object is to shoot the other guy down. Take what you can get.
(4) Getting a forward quarter shot or HO is independent of your skill in air combat. You might have used all the tactics and maneuvers in the world to get that shot. You might not have.
(5) If I happen to be the one being hit in the front quarter, my plane is the flight path of my advesary's bullets. Whether I like it or not I've maneuverd my plane into a position to get hit in the front quarter either unintentionally or by choice. If I don't like that then I should figure out ways I can stay out of them next time :)!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Please share with us that strict definition and tell us how it differs from the USN definition. Seems some here don't believe me.
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game has guns, rockets and bombs and you use those to kill other dweebs just like yourself. You guys trying to impose some set of rules might as well just go suck on an exhaust pipe. Play the game as best you can and stop your whimperish toddler like whining.
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Originally posted by Yeager
game has guns, rockets and bombs and you use those to kill other dweebs just like yourself. You guys trying to impose some set of rules might as well just go suck on an exhaust pipe. Play the game as best you can and stop your whimperish toddler like whining.
LOL:rofl
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Originally posted by Tumor
Look at it like this... at some point in that turning whateveryoucallit... it becomes less HOish. But, in the end, it's still just so much HO style firing. Here's another angle... would those shots have registered in AW? No, most wouldn't. Why? Because HO's were/are/will be a pain in the oscar that most would rather do without. I'm not saying in any way these are shots that should not be taken... I would. But this is just a part of the reason I no longer engage in the tight turning stall fight. 9 times out of 10 you end up in a joust, if and ONLY if someone else doesn't jump in cherry one of ya.
Yes, those shots would have counted in AW as I took deflection snaps shots like that all the time. So to summarize, front quarter deflection shots are not HOs and yes, they did register in AW.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by herrhav0k
when one plane does not fire on the first merge in an attempt to set up a decent fight, and the other plane does.
Hate to burst any bubbles, but the majority of the time when the other guy doesn't shoot at the merge isn't because he's trying to set up a good fight. It's because he doesn't have a gun solution.
ack-ack
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The term "Head On" give the impression that if no action is taken.
The 2 objects will collide .
The farther you get away from 0 degrees the less chance of that happening.
So I say a face shot is much different than a HO .
If I can shoot you in the face but you cant do the same it's not a HO.
Bronk
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AKAK.......defender of all things HO! :aok
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Where am I defending the HO? Or are you just to stupid to comprehend what is being said?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Where am I defending the HO? Or are you just to stupid to comprehend what is being said?
ack-ack
That would be the later.:D
Bronk
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hate to burst any bubbles, but the majority of the time when the other guy doesn't shoot at the merge isn't because he's trying to set up a good fight. It's because he doesn't have a gun solution.
ack-ack
Hmmm, not sure I'd agree with that one. I'm sure it's true in some cases but more and more lately I'm seeing guys not shooting at the merge and working it for the fight instead.
It's actually been better that way as of late.
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/head%20on
head-on /ˈhɛdˈɒn, -ˈɔn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hed-on, -awn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. (of two objects) meeting with the fronts or heads foremost: a head-on collision.
2. facing the direction of forward motion or alignment; frontal.
3. characterized by direct opposition: a head-on confrontation.
–adverb
4. with the front or head foremost, esp. in a collision: She stepped out of the front door and walked head-on into her husband.
Hmm no mention of angles.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Wonder why.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hate to burst any bubbles, but the majority of the time when the other guy doesn't shoot at the merge isn't because he's trying to set up a good fight. It's because he doesn't have a gun solution.
ack-ack
I disagree because I know I'm not the only one who holds off shooting on the first merge in a 1 on 1 fight. In the typical near nose-to-nose merges we are talking about, I don't see how both parties couldn't have a gun solution on the first pass if they both wanted to.
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I always try to take a shot any time the trajectory from my gun barrels have a decent chance of intersecting the target. Thats why I pay my money.
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in a fight (spit vs ki-84) that I posted awhile back in the training section. It's a pretty clear example of a MA fight under "dueling rules"...
"dueling merge"... (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/merge.ahf)
It's so close to a collision I "flinch" down and away because i'm worried about running into him....the screenie below shows view from my end at 200.
(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/headon.jpg)
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Originally posted by Suave
Ad hominem is what people do when they know they're wrong but they still want to say something anyway.
Trolling is what you are doing is called. But let's follow your logic. Do all of HTC's arena settings meet with your approval? If they don't then Aces High sucks (following your logic). Because how the HO was modeled in AW was nothing more than 3 arena setting parameters. One defining what angle constituted a HO. One defining what percentage of 'hits' would be rejected for fighters, and another for bombers. Those parameters were there in part because there was no a practical way to model collusions with player ping times commonly ranging from 600-1200ms. And something needed to be there to make gameplay more than planes flying though each other guns blazing.
People do not regularly come to this board to complain about being shot several turns into a fight because the other guy maneuvered inside their opposing turn radius. They do regularly complain about players that want to do nothing more than fly directly at your nose guns blazing, extend away, rinse and repeat. You seem insistant on saying the two are one in the same...hence the troll title :)
As Widewing said I understand your point, but I honestly don't care what the Navy calls it... This isn't the Navy. We set our own definitions. As long as I've been here, what classifies an HO is when both parties can get a guns solution.
My regards,
Widewing
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I know very little about aviation history and stand corrected Ack Ack. I obviously know less about flying. I just like to take my animated plane into the virtual sky and whack enemy aircraft out of the air with whatever method works and the opportunity presents. Be it a head on shot or a sneaky shot on a target fixated pilot in a fur ball. I understand the fun that can be had between two evenly matched pilots in a dog fight. I haven't had a good one of those since my AW days. Whenever I get into one in here I have to rush because normally there are other planes that come and either blast my tgt or I get blasted. I still love the game and feel that it should not be taken too seriously.BTW, If I've shot any of you down, you need to drive GVs. Have some fun damn it.
-SR-
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Originally posted by -SR-
I know very little about aviation history and stand corrected Ack Ack. I obviously know less about flying. I just like to take my animated plane into the virtual sky and whack enemy aircraft out of the air with whatever method works and the opportunity presents. Be it a head on shot or a sneaky shot on a target fixated pilot in a fur ball.
All the power to you.
Have some fun damn it.
-SR-
that's the whole point =)
ack-ack
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Well, I didn't read the whole thread & don't intend to. Nice deflection shot in your opening post Humble.
Myself, I'll pull the trigger if I find an enemy plane in front of my guns. I don't work to get a HO, but I'll be darned if I'm going to avoid it repeatedly in the same fight.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hate to burst any bubbles, but the majority of the time when the other guy doesn't shoot at the merge isn't because he's trying to set up a good fight. It's because he doesn't have a gun solution.
ack-ack
Ack... the minority of that is exactly what I'm talking about. I would most often angle off rather than continue into the merge JUST to avoid what is essentially a turning HO session, because.... chances are whoever has the bigger guns or worse, better connection is going to get the kill. And I firmly disagree that the the less extreme high-angle deflections registered in AW (ok, registered with little lethality).
Oh... and just to make it clear, I look at the HO, as well as the crock-o-crap collision system necessary evils of the game. Gotta have'em as much as it sucks.
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LMFAO keep (HOing wink wink) deflection shot <
> humble
:p :p :p :p :rofl :aok :noid
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Originally posted by Tumor
And I firmly disagree that the the less extreme high-angle deflections registered in AW (ok, registered with little lethality).
Been years since seeing the arena setup macros, but I think the normal setting was that the shot had to come from more than 20 degrees off angle of the targets nose to bypass the ho filter.
Of course those who flew the AW PJ like AKAK and I were used to scoring hits through the HO filter, just due to the sheer number of bullets those nose guns could put on target.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Been years since seeing the arena setup macros, but I think the normal setting was that the shot had to come from more than 20 degrees off angle of the targets nose to bypass the ho filter.
Of course those who flew the AW PJ like AKAK and I were used to scoring hits through the HO filter, just due to the sheer number of bullets those nose guns could put on target.
heh... ya gotta point.
IT'S OFFICIAL!!!... ACK-ACK is THE HO QUEEN!!! :)
j/k man... you know I luv ya. :aok :confused: :O
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Originally posted by Tumor
heh... ya gotta point.
IT'S OFFICIAL!!!... ACK-ACK is THE HO QUEEN!!! :)
j/k man... you know I luv ya. :aok :confused: :O
You're still not getting my bud light.
ack-ack
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Snaphook- Thanks for posting the film of the merge above. I ran it a few times and did some more screenshots for everyone and I hope you don't mind me using it as an example.
WHAT'S AN HO?? IS IT A REALLY A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE?
I mentioned in another thread that in the heat of combat differentiating the difference between an HO or a forward quarter shot can be virtually impossible. Infact what looks like an HO to one guy might not look like it on the other guy's side and what differentiates an HO from an FQ shot may be nothing more than a matter of visual perspective.
So let's relook at Snaphook's film that appears to be an HO setup. Here's the same pic he posted of the merge with the Ki-84 at 200 yards out (with trail turned on).
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-200.jpg)
The original image looks like they have been flying straight at each other for some time. Adding the "trail" to mark the flight path of the Ki-84 makes things a little more complicated. Will talk about that later though.
Looks like at the same setup again, this time from a 0-degree deflection from Snaphook's Spit:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-200e.jpg)
Looking directly behind the Spit we see that the Ki-84 is actually coming in at a slightly above the Spit. So is this really a HO or a FQ setup?
Here's the same view from the Ki-84 perspective - 200 yards out from the Spit (view slid left just slightly because the Spit images doesn't show up when it's in the Ki-84's gunsight - quirk of the ah film viewer):
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-200-ki84.jpg)
The trail that shows the Spit's flight path is interesting. Notice again that the last segmet of the trail is at angle relative to the nose of the Ki-84. This means the Ki-84 is actually coming down at an angle on top of the Spit.
Here's the same view, now externally at 0 degrees deflection off the Ki-84's tail.
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-200-ki84e.jpg)
Besides the angle in the Spit's flight path you can notice that the Spit is at some deflection presenting a portion of it's right fuselage and top of the fuselage to the Ki-84.
So is this really a HO or FQ setup?
Notice the flight as well and you see Spit curving around. Had the Ki-84 fired at the Spit earlier an the approach would this have still been considered and HO or a FQ shot?
Now let's advance it a fraction of a second and see what it looks like:
Here's the view from the Ki-84:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snap-200-close-ki84.jpg)
Here's the view from the Spit at the same distance:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snap-200-close.jpg)
Had the Ki-84 fired it would have been an FQ shot. You can clearly see the right fuselage and a portion of the top of the Spit exposed at a deflection to the Ki-84. Looking at it from the Spit's perspective it would have looked more like an HO.
So would this have been an HO or FQ shot? Depends on who's perspective you're looking at.
For grins, here is the same sequence looking at it from a fixed external view:
First frame at the first 200 yards internal pics:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snap-200-side.jpg)
just a moment later...
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-close-side.jpg)
passing (reverse angle for better view):
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/snaphook-pass-side.jpg)
For reference it took 5 seconds to go from about 2k out to the initial 200 yard pic above, then another ~1 sec to pass to give everyone a sense of how quickly this pass happened.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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My point originally was to show a "gentlemans" merge between two known adversaries that led to a very entertaining fight. You put a totally different but useful perspective on things. My whole initial point was the simple reality that 80%+ of all "HO's" simply arent.
how this gets distorted to the drams that followed continues to amaze me:)...
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A lot also have to realize that what you see on your FE isn't always what the other guy sees on his FE. It's just the way of the Intardnet.
ack-ack
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Ive shot some of the big whiners right in the tail feathers from dead six and been accused of ho :huh go figure.
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Originally posted by humble
how this gets distorted to the drams that followed continues to amaze me:)...
Yes humble!
A bunch of bickering ole bitties.
hap
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Hmmm...once again folks, lets revisit the basis of this game, WWII Air Combat. Being a WWII nut and watching as much as I can on the Mil Channel, The History Channel and such, it appeared to me that if a pilot had an opposing AC in his sights, the trigger was pulled, regardless of aspect, quarter or angle. Personally, I don't HO anyone until they do so, then all bets are off. As for the initial pic in this thread, well, as I seem to do very often, chalk this one up to PFU! Pilot put himself in a bad situation and as a result.......lights out. So shall we just put this "HO" issue to rest and go have some fun? Simple philosphy......if it's red...it's dead. (or at least try to kill it:rolleyes: )
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Since I am waiting for my DSL connection before I return I will give my opinon of a HO.(Obviously I'm bored)
If you find yourself for whatever reason Nose to nose with an opponent here are the possible outcomes.
#1 Niether fire you both manuver till someone makes mistake runs out of fuel or crashes.
#2 You decide to be honorable and manuver he HOs You scream nice ho he laughs last and laughs best.
#3 You Ho he Screams HO you Laugh last laugh best.
#4 While you 2 are battling a member of country 3 shows up and kills one or both of you he laughs last laughs best
#5 While you 2 manuver your friend drops in steals the kill you get accused of pileing on.
#6 Reverse of #5
#7 You both collide and mutual accusitions of HO go out on 200 everyone else laughs at the both of you.
As you can see there is no goo out come. So Kill or be Killed and move on. :cry
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Originally posted by Widewing
As long as I've been here, what classifies an HO is when both parties can get a guns solution.
My regards,
Widewing
With all due respect, many of us are anticipatory fighters, meaning we see the nose to nose coming. Sometimes you have to wonder if the other guy is forcing a chicken situation that would call for the triggter to be pulled out of necessity. So, when I see people pullng hard to come around, I generally assess whether they are going for that situation and try to counter that, mostly successfully but not always. Occasionally when the guy hits me, I might say, "HO dweeb" and I sometimes get the response like one in this thread, which is, "it was a high deflection". I am aware that it was a high deflection, but your intentions were to pull nose to nose to force it so YOU are a HO! Period! If I am the guy in the la7 in this film, I could have easily chopped throttle and pulled inverted nose to nose into Snaphook forcing a legitimate HO situation. I am not saying that Humble meant for it to be a HO situation but the angles he flew just to get this type of shot were at best average to par! Not trying to be too disrespectful to your flying snap, I just think a better more dominating kill shot could have been achieved with a different set of attack angles! Mark:aok
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Occasionally when the guy hits me, I might say, "HO dweeb" and I sometimes get the response like one in this thread, which is, "it was a high deflection". I am aware that it was a high deflection, but your intentions were to pull nose to nose to force it so YOU are a HO! Period!
So if someone pulls into a lead turn on the merge for a deflection shot, you'll call them a HO? You have any concept of ACM or you just one of the "air quakers"? My guess it's the latter.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So if someone pulls into a lead turn on the merge for a deflection shot, you'll call them a HO? You have any concept of ACM or you just one of the "air quakers"? My guess it's the latter.
ack-ack
You act like pulling into a lead turn for a high deflection shot on the merge is some elite manuver. I think what I said is very plain to those who understand! Maybe you think you know more than you actually do! Why don't you invite me to the DA to find out how much I know about acm?
Just in case you find an excuse not to go to the DA, getting around quick is not that hard to do and if both do it, then a HO merge occurs! Gun solution on both ends!
I can't resist not saying this, "Woot! I shot him in the face before he could get around and shoot me in the face! WOOT!!" LMAO! :rofl Obvious ownage, huh!
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Originally posted by SkyRock
With all due respect, many of us are anticipatory fighters, meaning we see the nose to nose coming. Sometimes you have to wonder if the other guy is forcing a chicken situation that would call for the triggter to be pulled out of necessity. So, when I see people pullng hard to come around, I generally assess whether they are going for that situation and try to counter that, mostly successfully but not always. Occasionally when the guy hits me, I might say, "HO dweeb" and I sometimes get the response like one in this thread, which is, "it was a high deflection". I am aware that it was a high deflection, but your intentions were to pull nose to nose to force it so YOU are a HO! Period! If I am the guy in the la7 in this film, I could have easily chopped throttle and pulled inverted nose to nose into Snaphook forcing a legitimate HO situation. I am not saying that Humble meant for it to be a HO situation but the angles he flew just to get this type of shot were at best average to par! Not trying to be too disrespectful to your flying snap, I just think a better more dominating kill shot could have been achieved with a different set of attack angles! Mark:aok
I was actually entirely defensive, if you look he'd tryed to HO me ion the previous "merge" I rolled out of plane and over setting up the 2nd "two circle" merge with me going down hill and him fighting his own E pulling around. I was 30 degrees or so out of plane....he kept pulling hard into me but hadnt cur his speed enough. So I had to either dive out {giving up all my angles} go vertical {and risk he had enough e to follow me up [also giving up all my angles]} or pop him in the canopy.....easy choice.
I'm far from the best stick here, the original image/comment is just factually correct. That is not a HO. Further its not a cheap shot in the context it was taken. I was engaged by a "superior" plane with E and alt and worked a two circle fight that gave me a decent shot. Had he "tightened up" I'd have gone vertical and either had a rolling scissors or conversion to a one circle fight. Now as I said...you, greebo, blukitty etc would (IMO) have kept the under looking for me to force the shot setting up a rolling scissors I would be at a disadvantage in. I'f you look at the clip i'm just sitting there watching the guy pill up and into me:)
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Originally posted by SkyRock
You act like pulling into a lead turn for a high deflection shot on the merge is some elite manuver. I think what I said is very plain to those who understand! Maybe you think you know more than you actually do! Why don't you invite me to the DA to find out how much I know about acm?
Just in case you find an excuse not to go to the DA, getting around quick is not that hard to do and if both do it, then a HO merge occurs! Gun solution on both ends!
I can't resist not saying this, "Woot! I shot him in the face before he could get around and shoot me in the face! WOOT!!" LMAO! :rofl Obvious ownage, huh!
Never implied it was an "elite" maneuver, just ascerting that it's not a gimmick shot or a skilless HO shot like you seem to imply it is. It is a very legitimate merge maneuver and to discount it like it's some gimmick shows what little understanding of ACM you have. In case you don't know what a lead turn is, here is a perfect example.
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_023a_1.gif)
another example
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_054b_9.gif)
Here is an example of a Head On Pass.
(http://www.flightsimbooks.com/jfs2/fig5-3.jpg)
ack-ack