Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: B3YT on January 15, 2007, 03:14:22 PM
-
a true immelman i thought was where you go vert and kick the plane over on its tail like a stall turn so you come down vertical on your "up route" .
i read and saw a picture of it in a flight international mag runing and artical on the German WW1 Ace that inveted the move
-
The meaning of the term has changed drastically somewhere along the line. Now it means to invert and pull back half a loop.
-
ah that clears it up . thought i was going mad. i used to be able to pull it off in US navy fighters and other sims :) might try again here soon.
-
Yes, that is the origin of the name from Max Immelmans maneuver in WWI. However, that original maneuver is not the definition of an aerobatic, or ACM "Immelman" today.
The original maneuver most resembles what is today called a hammerhead.
-
ooooo ok what does that look like :)
-
hammerhead (http://www.scootworks.com/rdrc/aerobatics/hhead.html)
-
yeah thats what i saw in the mag
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The meaning of the term has changed drastically somewhere along the line. Now it means to invert and pull back half a loop.
Nope that's a Split S
The modern meaning of the immelman is half loop and roll out at the top.
-
How do you pronounce 'Immelman'
is the I prounounced like "ice"
or is the I prounounced like "in"
-
Originally posted by Blagard
Nope that's a Split S
The modern meaning of the immelman is half loop and roll out at the top.
You're quite right of course. Durrr. Sorry!
-
I as in 'Igloo' or 'In' etc.
pronounced: 'I-mul-mun'
-
Originally posted by DREDger
How do you pronounce 'Immelman'
is the I prounounced like "ice"
or is the I prounounced like "in"
I always thought it was with the i as in "in" But as my grammar is rotten to the core I could be wrong!
Edit-
B@tfinkV has confused me further as he has used "in" but then uses the "ice" I :confused:
There are two "n"'s on the end to. "Immelmann"
Immelmann (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Immelmann)
It's on Vox here!
-
my bad blagard, i just made that up have no idea how to spell I (in) as a sylable. my spelling is aww full.
that how i would say it though, i-mul-mun.
-
hammerhead looks just like what was decribed as a "wing over" are they one and the same? I will post the description later, the info is not available at the moment (sk00l)
-
Bat cannot speel and nop its not a wingover Yoshi
errr where do i know tha name from :)
BTW if you REALLY want to know the German prponuciatuion just ask the SchatZ
-
Murdr thanks for the illustration. I am a bit confused-The hammerhead seems to follow the same path as a high yo-yo, is the only difference that with a hammerhead you rotate the plane on it's axis at the apex using rudder then drop back down the same path you came up?
-
Hammerhead (aka wingover) is a vertical reversal that yaws over near or at stall speed. (your pitch changes 90 degrees to enter the vert, 90 degrees to exit). This is a very limited maneuver. It is useful if you need to reverse in the vertical at slow speed with very little lateral displacement between your enterence and exit line. Specifically this is most often desired when you have an opponent in or near stall condition underneath you.
High Yo-Yo is an out of plane (geometricly) reversal, that is performed at nearly any speed. It does not have to go vertical. (your pitch changes to leave your original plane (approximately near horizontal), you roll up to 90 degrees, you reverse 180 with your pitch axis, you roll back to wings level, and change pitch to re-enter your original plane. If you take it to the extreme by going pure vertical, thats 360 degrees of pitch change to make a 180 heading change. No matter how out of plane your yo-yo ends up, it will still be more that 180 degrees of pitch changes.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules/Sections/images/yo2.jpg)
Quoted from this thread "Vertical Turns" (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193840)
"3 of these things are kind of the same"
An Immelman, a chandelle, and a pitchback have some commonalities. Each maneuver will gain over 100% of the distance of your turn radius in altitude from start to finish. All changes in your pitch axis during the maneuvers contribute toward your heading reversal (this is also true with flat turns and split-s). So they are all about making a 180 degree turn in a time and distance efficent manner.
The High Yo-Yo differs on these points. I gave the extreme example of a near 90 degree high yo-yo from hanger to hanger in the film to hilight the difference. In that film I make a 90 degree turn to exit the horizontal plane, a 180 degree heading reversal, and a 90 degree turn to re-enter the horizontal. That adds up to 360 degrees in pitch change, that is neither time effecient nor a short path. What it does accomplish is an exit to a desired position that would be impossible with an in plane turn.
This is often the same thing that you want to accomplish while in pursuit of a slower bogie. If you have low separation with the bogie and they break turn in front of you, any attempt at pure pursuit will likely result with you well outside of their turn, with enough room for them to turn into you. The combination of those to factors creates an overshoot. Instead, you use a high yo-yo to re-enter the bogies turning plane to a position where it is still possible to re-aquire his extended 6. Not only does it allow you a chance to get to your opponents extended 6 where you otherwise could not, but it also creates separation. So you are using that 'longer route' to manage your separation. All the while you are efficently transfering energy states to gain the performance you are looking for.
I should add that typically, a high yo-yo will be more in the range of 30-60 degrees out of plane, and how hard of a yo-yo you will want will depend both on the position you are trying to exit at, and the separation you can afford to allow. And I think I will leave it at that because of how well the high yo-yo has been covered in this discussion
As you can see the high yo-yo has a much different set of objectives than the other turns discussed. This is also a reason I have wanted to stack these maneuvers together in the same discussion. They all have similarities in the way they look, but they do have different properties, and differ slightly in what they are trying to achieve. Hopefully this will cut down any confusion on what is or isn't a high yo-yo, and give you a few lessor discussed maneuvers to work with.
-
Actually in that "warmups" film I posted in the other thread, I do 2 yo-yos, and 1 hammerhead each lap. Might help you see the difference.
Again, the high yo-yo does not have to even go vert or get that slow. I extended them long and slow enough to make a 180 turn into the next hanger.
-
Wing Over
"In a wing over, your plane behaves somewhat like a marble rolled up a ramp; gravity draws it back down to where it started. Rather than using ailerones to execute this 180 degree turn, pull back on the stick to begin a steep climb. As plane nears a stall, use full rudder to yaw the plane over until its nose is pointing down in the opposite direction of the climb. This is a tricky maneuver, but it is useful after a diving attack, allowing a quick return for a second pass."
Found it, I would show a picture, but my scanner is screwy. But it looks very very similar to the Hammerhead link posted by Murdr. But this (wingover) would be for a retuning pass after a zoom climb.
-
Originally posted by DREDger
How do you pronounce 'Immelman'
is the I prounounced like "ice"
or is the I prounounced like "in"
Main Entry: Im·mel·mann
Pronunciation: 'i-mal-man
Function: noun
Etymology: Max Immelmann
: a maneuver in which an airplane reverses direction by executing half of a loop upwards followed by half of a roll -- called also Immelmann turn
-
Awesome, Murdr, got it now-:aok
-
Originally posted by Yoshimbo
Found it, I would show a picture, but my scanner is screwy. But it looks very very similar to the Hammerhead link posted by Murdr. But this (wingover) would be for a retuning pass after a zoom climb.
That link is an aerobatic definition of a hammerhead (as if you were to be graded on it in competition). When people say they did a 'hammerhead' in the game (in the context of acm), it's effectivly the same as saying a 'wingover'. By that I mean in the context of ACM, we arn't worried about hitting the aerobatic marks for entering and exiting level. We just want to make that on a dime vertical reversal, rather than one that follows your planes normal turn radius.
-
opps i seem to have started something here :( :( :confused: :O