Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bronk on January 15, 2007, 04:40:07 PM
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Posted in the collisions thread. I think this is significant enough for its own.
Went to the DA with a friend and shot film.
Now for all you people who want both to take damage .
Tell me why tangle should take any after looking at from his side.
Films best looked at from external .
Tangle's perspective.
http://www.speedyshare.com/505573530.html
My perspective.
http://www.speedyshare.com/193779581.html.
Basically from his view he gets "bronk has collieded with you.". You then see me take damage in mid air.
My side you see me fly into his ac and take damage.
I submit this as proof collision model works as intended.
Thank you for your time.
Bronk
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AMEN
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Nice work but it still wont stop the monthly thread. Only explanation is that some people actually WANT to take damage even when they dont see it because its more REALISTIC.
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You can post any film you want but I know I lose every collision because other guys just take advantage of crappy connection so the server says its my fault and I die not the other guy HTC has to FIX collisions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
j/k :D
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Originally posted by Trikky
Nice work but it still wont stop the monthly thread. Only explanation is that some people actually WANT to take damage even when they dont see it because its more REALISTIC.
Wait, I didn't see you hit me but gimme damage anyway. Is MORE realistic !!!!???!!
:huh :O :huh :O
Bronk
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Anyone who says the damage model is crap is effectively saying 'I want to die through no fault of my own'.
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Actually, usually they whine for no collisions unless both front ends register it. That effectively disables collisions, so I can only assume it's the head-on crowd that whines about collisions to most.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Actually, usually they whine for no collisions unless both front ends register it. That effectively disables collisions, so I can only assume it's the head-on crowd that whines about collisions to most.
I have film where we both take damage.
Guess what we both get the "xxx has colided with you.".
Point of my post what you see is what you get.
Bronk
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OK, I've never whined about the collision model and I'm sure you guys are going to explain Internet lag and otherwise rip on me for it but I got killed three times in the last two days by the same types of collisions.
In the first I shot down a B-24. I dived below him after ripping his wing off. He had enough manouverability to roll it down into me as I crossed under killing me before i got the kill on him.
In the other two I was in close combat and the enemy rolled over into me on his break turn.
In every case I attempted to avoid my oncoming enemy. In every case they got the kill and I died. I wish I had film.
I quickly realized that the common denominator was that my nose hit them in mid-plane even though there was nothing I could do to avoid it and that it was done purposefully (in the fighters i was pulling for lead shots against slower, better turn fighters at least given E-states but not with a significant E advantage).
Now I know how to game the collision model and so do you.
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The collision model may be the best it can be under the circumstances but I find fault with the following scenario and it happened to me just tonight.
I dove on a p51b in my D. I scored good hits as I dropped on his 6 and at same alt. I then shot past him, going over his top. At the last second he dips his left wing and his right wing then collides with my plane. My plane loses critical pieces, alright so be it. The bad guy wanders off, undamaged from the collision.
However, I feel if my FE shows me colliding w/ his wing that his wing ought to take damage as well, regardless of what his FE shows.
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Let me put this very simply. Whoever's nose hits loses. No matter what. Thus the danger in HO's as both noses face possible collision. If one turns just enough that the other noses into his wing, the guy who hits the wing loses.
If your nose hits any part of an enemy plane you will lose. As long as his nose doesn't hit he'll fly away.
The Internet lag theory is a crock. Maybe HT explained it to you all that way and maybe he thought it was that way. I'm assuming he's got other people doing programming and it wouldn't be the fist time an employee snowballed his or her boss. If so, HT, did you actually take the time to read the code? Believe me, I'm not calling you out, just calling it as I see it.
Go into the arena, get into a collision or two and prove me wrong. I'll bet I'm right every time.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
The collision model may be the best it can be under the circumstances but I find fault with the following scenario and it happened to me just tonight.
I dove on a p51b in my D. I scored good hits as I dropped on his 6 and at same alt. I then shot past him, going over his top. At the last second he dips his left wing and his right wing then collides with my plane. My plane loses critical pieces, alright so be it. The bad guy wanders off, undamaged from the collision.
However, I feel if my FE shows me colliding w/ his wing that his wing ought to take damage as well, regardless of what his FE shows.
What about this then
I am flying behind a player who is landing.
I have no ammo.
I ram him on purpose.
The other player who got rammed saw me close behind but decided that landing was more important.
The other player could not see the fact that I was going to ram him (on his end I was 100 behind when the collision occoured) and there fore he did not try to avoid.
He dies because on my end I rammed his plane
Now in this case would your idea be appropriate ?
EDIT: removed all caps... I hate all caps
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The Internet lag theory is a crock.
My God do you even understand what lag is... ?
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I quickly realized that the common denominator was that my nose hit them in mid-plane even though there was nothing I could do to avoid it and that it was done purposefully (in the fighters i was pulling for lead shots against slower, better turn fighters at least given E-states but not with a significant E advantage).
Now I know how to game the collision model and so do you.
Bullshi*.
If you can do that, try and gain 5 kills straight by causing deliberate collisions that only the other guy is damaged. Give us the film, and we'll admit that collision model can be exploited purposely.
There's no such thing as an unavoidable collision. Every collision is a failure on one's own part to take the necessary precautions to avoid it, and that's a fact. And as long as collisions are avoidable, there's no such thing as a "collision exploit".
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Maybe HT explained it to you all that way and maybe he thought it was that way. I'm assuming he's got other people doing programming and it wouldn't be the fist time an employee snowballed his or her boss. If so, HT, did you actually take the time to read the code? Believe me, I'm not calling you out, just calling it as I see it.
IIRC HT Designed the code
IIRC HT has been in this bussiness for about 15 Years
Ever heard of "Confirmed Kill" or "Warbirds".....
From BulletHead, a History of HiTech (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139882)
From the above theread
Originally posted by hitech
MOSQ Generaly described the sitatuion and outcome , but it was just makeing a detailed range sight . And expoerting the terrain to acad so I could messure distances from fixed points of refference.
The monitor came later when I needed to make logs to show them they had blanks.
Btw all that stuff produced a film view, a terrain editor, and a cockpit editor . Kesmie used the TE for makeing there newer terrains, and the Film viewer and cockpit editor was release to the public.
So from this I think it proves that HT knows somthing about programming and flight sims
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What happens when empty heads collide with the internet and we all see it on the BBS?
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Let me put this very simply. Whoever's nose hits loses. No matter what. Thus the danger in HO's as both noses face possible collision. If one turns just enough that the other noses into his wing, the guy who hits the wing loses.
............................. .................
The Internet lag theory is a crock. Maybe HT explained it to you all that way and maybe he thought it was that way.
Well the first part of your observation is true regarding the effect of your nose hitting someone elses wing...................
However ther is no win/lose with respect to collisions you either collide or you dont collide............... so simple it is.
You are gravely mistaken with respect to the effects of lag however ...........................it is a fundamental principle of the game we play................. just as the plane on your 6 is closer than he appears so the plane you just missed a collision with could have collided with you on his FE.
Hence he sufferes collision and you do not.
Ever seen that P51 merge nearly head on and fire behind you only to get hits............... wondered why? its lag
If he had carried on into the space his FE says you are in he would have sufferred collision.................... ......... you would not.
If your opponent turns sharp across your nose it is possible that you collide with him and suffer collision yet he does not. To actually game this he has to know the total lag from your PC thru the server to his PC and be able to transmute this with the respective speeds of your aircraft and the angle of crossing to calculate the distance he has to cross infront of you.
He has a split second to make this judgement..............hence you will not find players able to perform such a trick and would claim BS for any claiming to be able to do so repeatedly.
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In addition to what I posted above.
I beleive (and correct me if I am wrong) that Pyro, Sudz, Nate and Super all came over with HT from warbirds and have been in the industry for a dam long time...
So I am sure they know a thing or two about designing and developing online flightsims as well....
EDIT: and from what I can see Skuzzy's been working on AH for a little while too....
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
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The Internet lag theory is a crock. Maybe HT explained it to you all that way and maybe he thought it was that way. I'm assuming he's got other people doing programming and it wouldn't be the fist time an employee snowballed his or her boss. If so, HT, did you actually take the time to read the code? Believe me, I'm not calling you out, just calling it as I see it......
I'd rethink this statement. Internet lag has everything to do with everything. If my ping to the server is at 68ms and yours is at 170ms my info will get to the server before yours. Our overall combined data to and from each other will take 238ms not including the server's added delay in the relay. Simple math and the plague of every online game in one form or another.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Posted in the collisions thread. I think this is significant enough for its own.
Went to the DA with a friend and shot film.
Now for all you people who want both to take damage .
Tell me why tangle should take any after looking at from his side.
Films best looked at from external .
Tangle's perspective.
http://www.speedyshare.com/505573530.html
My perspective.
http://www.speedyshare.com/193779581.html.
Basically from his view he gets "bronk has collieded with you.". You then see me take damage in mid air.
My side you see me fly into his ac and take damage.
I submit this as proof collision model works as intended.
Thank you for your time.
Bronk
this part alone with no replies should be stickied, locked, and mandatory reading / viewing for anyone joining the game
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Originally posted by mussie
So from this I think it proves that HT knows somthing about programming and flight sims
Actually, what it proves is that HT can't spell!!! :D
Baldy...
Single wing B24s do NOT maneuver. They flutter in a downward direction. The choice you made to fly under the plane who's wing you just shot off was a mistake. In the other 2 instances you described, you were tailgating. Who is the cop gonna ticket in a tailgating instance?? :)
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Originally posted by Trikky
Anyone who says the damage model is crap is effectively saying 'I want to die through no fault of my own'.
That happens anyway.
Tooling around not even knowing another AC is ther and you collide with someone by then flying into your rear end on your low 6 on your end.
Wasnt your fault. you take damage. the other didnt.
Did have one the other night where we both collided and both of us ended up going down.
Thought that was pretty novel
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
The collision model may be the best it can be under the circumstances but I find fault with the following scenario and it happened to me just tonight.
I dove on a p51b in my D. I scored good hits as I dropped on his 6 and at same alt. I then shot past him, going over his top. At the last second he dips his left wing and his right wing then collides with my plane. My plane loses critical pieces, alright so be it. The bad guy wanders off, undamaged from the collision.
However, I feel if my FE shows me colliding w/ his wing that his wing ought to take damage as well, regardless of what his FE shows.
Where is the fault Steve ?
On your FE you hit his right wing ... on his FE you cleared his right wing ... looks like it was your fault for flying that close to him.
Put the shoe on the other foot now ... how upset would you be if you banked left clearing the guy behind you (no collision), yet all of a sudden your right wing is torn off for no apparent reason.
I'm betting you would not be a happy camper.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
this part alone with no replies should be stickied, locked, and mandatory reading / viewing for anyone joining the game
though I have also has instances where from my pilots vantage point I would swear we SHOULD have collided and either didnt. or seen it only register as a collision on the other player.
And had instances where it looked to me like we clearly missed and ended up with a collision.
though if I had my druthers over which was worked over better.
I'd rather see somethign else done with the Pilot wounds LOL
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm assuming he's got other people doing programming and it wouldn't be the fist time an employee snowballed his or her boss. If so, HT, did you actually take the time to read the code?
Thank you, BE, that's the funniest thing I've seen in awhile :rofl
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Originally posted by -sudz-
Thank you, BE, that's the funniest thing I've seen in awhile :rofl
I missed that before!!!
:rofl :aok :cry :lol :rofl
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Where is the fault Steve ?
If two planes collide, they both take damage... what does fault have to do with it?
Now in this case would your idea be appropriate ?
Yep
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
though I have also has instances where from my pilots vantage point I would swear we SHOULD have collided and either didnt. or seen it only register as a collision on the other player.
And had instances where it looked to me like we clearly missed and ended up with a collision.
though if I had my druthers over which was worked over better.
I'd rather see somethign else done with the Pilot wounds LOL
Post the film dred. It is that simple. You can not see every edge of your plane from the cockpit .
I wanted to do more filming but I didn't want to take up more of tangles time.
I am certain I can also do the guy passed me and I get "you have collided".
If anyone here who doesn't understand how it works wants to learn.
Contact me with a PM we both will run film and you can see for yourself.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Let me put this very simply. Whoever's nose hits loses. No matter what. Thus the danger in HO's as both noses face possible collision. If one turns just enough that the other noses into his wing, the guy who hits the wing loses.
If your nose hits any part of an enemy plane you will lose. As long as his nose doesn't hit he'll fly away.
NO, it can be any part of your ac. It could be a wing tip or tail section. If yo watch my film from external you see. 1 my nose hit , thus engine damage . 2. Right wing wing hit and it comes off.
The Internet lag theory is a crock. Maybe HT explained it to you all that way and maybe he thought it was that way. I'm assuming he's got other people doing programming and it wouldn't be the fist time an employee snowballed his or her boss. If so, HT, did you actually take the time to read the code? Believe me, I'm not calling you out, just calling it as I see it.
Go into the arena, get into a collision or two and prove me wrong. I'll bet I'm right every time.
Come to the DA with me and I'll prove you wrong each and every time.
We will both run film and you will have the proof you need.
Thats the best offer I can give.
Bronk
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Originally posted by -sudz-
Thank you, BE, that's the funniest thing I've seen in awhile :rofl
What is there 4 -6 people at HTC.... 2 to 3 which actually program...
Hell, he can't afford not to "coad"..
:rofl
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Nice try Bronk, but I'm convinced any effort to clearify this issue is a complete waste of time.
The message "You have collided" is all the information they need to know.
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This thread is proof that stupid people don't want to be made un-stupid.
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<-- BaldEagl Look closely to the left of this post. And Sudz is my only other coder.
And BaldEagl, to assure you I know a thing or 2 about latency.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6042477.html
HiTech
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If two planes collide, they both take damage... what does fault have to do with it?
Because, for about the zillionth frustrating time explained, the two planes didn't collide in the other guy's PC. The instance happened only on your PC, so you are the only one who is suffering from it.
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OK, my posts of last night were made in the heat of having just been killed through collisions twice so first my appologies to HT and staff. You've all done a fine job and I know I'm not the only one who appreciates your efforts.
I understand Internet lag. Relative to the collision model it has far greater effect in a HO though than in any other type of collision. It has to given the relative closing speeds.
I stand my my assertion that if your front end hits you will either die or lose your plane. I'm not sure about other parts hitting (wing to wing, etc.).
If a plane, even a bomber, is missing a wing it still has rudder, elevators, one aileron and one flap. If all you have to do is guide it slightly (a few feet) it can be accomplished. Is that what this person did? Probably not but it seemed like it to me at the time. No way to prove it either way. Was flying under a mistake? Evidently yes although I've done it 100's of times successfully.
Was I tailgating the fighters? I was 200 on their sixes both times in a slight turn pulling for lead when they pulled back into my nose. Was it my fault? I suppose you can say that although 200-300 yard close combat is what most of us try to achieve, at least in a furball which was the case both times. Pulling for lead meant I couldn't see them very well under my nose until they pulled across which was too late for me to get out of the way (yes, an unavoidable collision at that point). Did they do it on purpose? No way to tell but I do believe that move can be repeated with the same results in a similar situation.
Anyway, I knew I'd get a rise out of you all. Did the target on my tail get any bigger?
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Originally posted by hitech
<-- BaldEagl Look closely to the left of this post. And Sudz is my only other coder.
And BaldEagl, to assure you I know a thing or 2 about latency.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6042477.html
HiTech
That there is a grade A PWN!!!!!!!!1111111111!!!11.
:aok
Bronk
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Was I tailgating the fighters? I was 200 on their sixes both times in a slight turn pulling for lead when they pulled back into my nose. Was it my fault? I suppose you can say that although 200-300 yard close combat is what most of us try to achieve, at least in a furball which was the case both times.
And with every fight that puts you so close to the enemy, there is always a danger of a collision happening. So when such a thing happens is it something one should be angry or upset about? Most definately not. One knows the danger of such things. Nobody forced one into that situation.
In that aspect collision is a natural thing to happen. Sooner or later, even to the best of us it will happen. A mistake in judgement... a slip of the stick.. wrong throttle setting.. and then bam! it happens.
And when that happens, I don't know about you, but my reaction sure wouldn't be accusing the other guy that it was intentional... because believe me, I was a dweeb once. Every single one of us was a n00b and dweeb before we learned about the real fun in aerial combat. We've all tried to collide into the other guy in desperation.
Guess what - it doesn't work. If somebody thinks he can do an intentional ramming that damages only my plane and not his, during the heat of comabt where both parties are maneuvering to an extent, I'd like to see him try.
Pulling for lead meant I couldn't see them very well under my nose until they pulled across which was too late for me to get out of the way (yes, an unavoidable collision at that point).
You could have always delayed the shot and maneuvered some more until you were 100% latched behind his six at a close distance where no amount of maneuvering would immediately direct him outside the perimeters of your gunsight. Instead, you took the opportuntiy to fire a high angle blind-lead shot, which has its own risks.
It wasn't unavoidable,
Did they do it on purpose? No way to tell but I do believe that move can be repeated with the same results in a similar situation.
So that's settled then.
Come back with film proof.
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Originally posted by hitech
<-- BaldEagl Look closely to the left of this post. And Sudz is my only other coder.
And BaldEagl, to assure you I know a thing or 2 about latency.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6042477.html
HiTech
TOTALLY off topic, sorry, but are you now allowed to speak of that incident regarding this or some other patent from a year or 2 ago? I am hoping all went well for HTC Inc.
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I think I know how to fix this....
Simply remove the collision message from the FE that did not collied....
Is it to simple to be effective... ?
EDIT: Not fix.... More reduce the confusion on the subject
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
If two planes collide, they both take damage... what does fault have to do with it?
This is the fault that I was referring to ...
Originally posted by SteveBailey
The collision model may be the best it can be under the circumstances but I find fault with the following scenario and it happened to me just tonight.
If two planes collide, they both take damage
So very true ... but in your case ... only one collided ... and it was you that collide with him on your FE.
His FE did not register a collision ... so because you collided with him, he should lose a wing ?
I sure wouldn't like that outcome and I don't think you would either.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Because, for about the zillionth frustrating time explained, the two planes didn't collide in the other guy's PC. The instance happened only on your PC, so you are the only one who is suffering from it.
I know I asked the question, but it was rhetorical.
I clearly understand the collision logic and have no problem with it.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
and it was you that collide with him on your FE.
By this Slapshot means that on your computer the two planes collided.
it does not matter if it was
- on purpose
(like the time I rammed a buff cause my guns were dry, only new, did not realise that it was pointless)
- by accident
(like the time I dived on a spitty in my P-47 only to compress and clip him)
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Originally posted by hitech
<-- BaldEagl Look closely to the left of this post. And Sudz is my only other coder.
And BaldEagl, to assure you I know a thing or 2 about latency.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6042477.html
HiTech
HT, I've already appologized, I'll do it again.
Very interesting link BTW. I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing trough but got the gist of it. I'll have a closer look when I'm not at work.
Could you please settle the speculation as to when/how damage occurs absent the lag issue?
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Damage occurs when your front end detects your AC is in the same space as another. Period, end of story. Nothing to speculate about.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Kweassa
but my reaction sure wouldn't be accusing the other guy that it was intentional...
I never did directly accuse any of these people. Maybe had I done so on 200 I wouldn't have gotten so hot when I opened the BBs and saw this thread but I've only whined on 200 twice in the six years I've been here. I was just so frustrated!
In any case it seems I've suffered from a series of bad judgements.
I'll just shut up and go quietly away now.
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BaldEagl
Believe it or not my reason for posting this was my sincere attempt to educate players.
My offer still stands we can go to the da and turn on film .
Once you look at both films you will understand how it works.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
In any case it seems I've suffered from a series of bad judgements.
I'll just shut up and go quietly away now.
Your showing some class by saying that...
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Originally posted by hitech
<-- BaldEagl Look closely to the left of this post. And Sudz is my only other coder.
And BaldEagl, to assure you I know a thing or 2 about latency.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6042477.html
HiTech
Very neat!
You smooth stuff in the FE!............... position predictively according to the base offset and adjust the base offset toward its error by damping the rate of adjustment by 2ms per cycle?
I cant hold the whole thing in my mind at the moment so would ask if I am approaching understanding or leaving it?
If I am it does seem an elegant solution to smoothing. We would all see differing "rough edges" in our FE's so that is the best place to smooth stuff
Plus of the ability to use the smoothing to compensate for at least part of the lag is an added bonus.
Thats if I got it right of course................. :confused:
Thanks for sharing...............
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just want to thank bronk and his accomplice for taking the time to do the film!:aok :aok
although I do understand the FE and plane accoupieng space concept it was very comforting to see it in action.
even the first time I saw the written explanation it is hard to get away from the "it happened on your front end so its your fault" phrase so people automatically believe its somekind of justice system that determines who tried not to wreck or that it has to do with what is on your screen (the "if i look away it wont happen")
also if i cant park my car in a spot a wal-mart without coming back to find out that some joker dinged a statiionary object how am I supposed to believ that you clowns flew by me at 300 mph while we both were maneuvering and you "KNOW" you didnt come into contact with my plane :lol
ps my head cold has collided with my ability to spell.. sorry
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
OK, I've never whined about the collision model and I'm sure you guys are going to explain Internet lag and otherwise rip on me for it but I got killed three times in the last two days by the same types of collisions.
In the first I shot down a B-24. I dived below him after ripping his wing off. He had enough manouverability to roll it down into me as I crossed under killing me before i got the kill on him.
In the other two I was in close combat and the enemy rolled over into me on his break turn.
In every case I attempted to avoid my oncoming enemy. In every case they got the kill and I died. I wish I had film.
I quickly realized that the common denominator was that my nose hit them in mid-plane even though there was nothing I could do to avoid it and that it was done purposefully (in the fighters i was pulling for lead shots against slower, better turn fighters at least given E-states but not with a significant E advantage).
Now I know how to game the collision model and so do you.
I felt exactly the same way, until I realized he didnt actually see me in the same place. In his view the planes never collide. He may very well be avoiding the collision on his FE. In the clip bronk posted there is NO collision from the other guys perspective. This fallacy that someone can force a collision on you is simply wrong.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Post the film dred. It is that simple. You can not see every edge of your plane from the cockpit .
I wanted to do more filming but I didn't want to take up more of tangles time.
I am certain I can also do the guy passed me and I get "you have collided".
If anyone here who doesn't understand how it works wants to learn.
Contact me with a PM we both will run film and you can see for yourself.
Bronk
I would LOVE to film more.
I really would.
actually would like ot make a couple films I have ideas for too
And I will. Just as soon as I can have the option of individually naming flights after the flight is over. (like some of us have been asking for for quite some time now And I remember hearing in a voice recording from the con a member of HTC saying that request was "Do able" HINT HINT)
What typically happens when I do film. I turn it on. then forget to turn it off and I end up with a super long film with a generic name that I later forget what is what. and rarely watch anyway
In the end its just not worth my aggivation to film unless I know something interesting is gonna happen.
And its kinda hard to predict a collision is going to happen unless you do it intentional.
Not to mention I find the film viewer and editor as frustrating as hell on those long films