Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CptTrips on May 14, 2000, 04:27:00 PM
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With all the whining about the 1c cannon against armor, it reminded me of a passage from a book: “Scorched Earth” by Paul Carell.
Pg. 68
“German Luftwaffe was employing new ground-support aircraft fitted with anti-tank cannon. They were employed as a kind of flying anti-tank artillery, pouncing from the sky at tanks like hawks pouncing on a chicken-yard. Armored counter-attacks were thus shot up by the surprise intervention of these machines. Getman’s Soviet tank corps had suffered most. TWELVE of its T-34s were knocked out within a very short period by JUST ONE of those flying tank-busters.
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Always from behind. Tank after tank is knocked out by his cannon, the target spot being invariably its most vulnerable spot, the engine compartment where EACH HIT results in an instant explosion. “
Now in fairness, these Stuka’s were sporting a single 37mm cannon. However, I’d suspect that four 20mm Hispanos are prolly even better. Especially when you consider that the PzIV we have has armor an order of magnitude thinner than the T-34s mentioned above. All things being considered I think the 1C’s modeling is dead on. Its effect on insufficiently supported armor is right what I'd expect.
In short, ...get over it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 05-14-2000).]
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the 30mm should bounce off though, exploding before piercing the armor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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respectfully I must disagree.
PaK37 cannons used tungsten core rounds, with a impressive penetrating force, more even than 50mm guns on PanzerIII.
hispanos use AP round but not tungsten cored. Its AP power is good but not THAT good. Even at convergence ranges, they needed all ammo to do bad damage on a Panzer IV (as typhoons demonstrated over Normandy)-
here with a single F4U you can destroy 5 or 6 tanks with one ammo load. that, IMHO, is terribly wrong.
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so the low muzzle velocity 30mm HE round should wipe tanks out w 1 hit right?
nah I dinnae buy that.
I do buy into the 37mm tank destroyer gun doing this...
a ju87 taking out 12 tanks in one sortie.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by Citabria:
HAHAHAHAH
the LW conspiracy
oh yes citabria, oh wise man, how could I fall so low!!!
I guess that russians made Il2 because they wanted to get a funny design, having as they had already Spitfires with those armor ripping hispanos.
hey, why do USAAF use A10? it only has a 30mm gatling!! hey load it with 4 hispanos!! they are better than the uranium cored 30mm slugs!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
btw, incredible as it is, I agree with citabria on something.that Mk108, Those shells couldnt penetrate any armor...so that is wrong,too.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-14-2000).]
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my appologies RAM, we are actually in total agreement (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
30mm HE should bounce off
37mm should destroy with ease (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
40mm equally devastating (hurri2d) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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>hispanos use AP round but not tungsten
>cored.
Point taken. However, the real point is that you need to take into account that we're hitting PzIVs and not the much more heavily armored T-34. It is not unreasonable that the four 20mm hispanos would have a similar effect on PzIVs as 37mm had on T-34s. They get eaten like cookies.
Thats why you need air cover. Welcome to the world of combined arms warfare. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, me and another 1c pounded the crap out of a pz last night hitting long streams right on his bellybutton with no effect. Took 3 1cs to finish him off. I hadn't even been drinking yet. So no sympathy here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 05-14-2000).]
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AKwabbit I dont say that a Hawg cant kill a tank, what I say is that in one single pass a F4U can kill 2 tanks with 2 bursts,and that is unrealistic from my point of view.
OTOH, I agree that 4 20mm have a lot of punch...but not THAT punch.
If they bring a Ju87G in AH with 2 37mm with 15 rpg, you can kill, say 5 or 6 if your gunnery is that of a master. With that gunnery in a F4U you can kill 9 or 10 tanks...and that is unveliable. There is no point on bringing Hs129 nor Il2 nor Ju87G in this game if those ubercannons can do the same,or better, work easier and safer.
And again I am doubtful that the hispanos had that punch. maybe they could kill a panzer, yes...but not with a short burst,but with a long one. If they could kill tanks so effectiverly with cannon, then why did they use rockets on them?...why bombs?...
lets get real...Hispanos have more punch than what they must have. so the A-G whining is fully understandable ,IMHO
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-14-2000).]
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Ram,
If you got the penetration tables that prove that a 1c shouldn't be able to kill a panzer with a good 1 sec stream on target, send them to Pyro and I'm sure he will consider your data. Otherwise, benefit of the doubt goes to the designers. If you don't have the data, then its just opinion. Opinions are like a*s holes: everybodys got one and most of them stink. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
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An armor piercing round from an AN-M2 will penetrate 1/2" of face hardened plate at a 30 degree angle from over 600 yards. The top hull armor of the Panzer IV H is only 12mm(a little less than 1/2").
Don't use the term "tank" generically. A Panzer IV is not a T-34 or Panther or Tiger. Even the much maligned Sherman has a lot thicker armor on top than the Panzer IV.
There's a good reason why the Panzer IV is our first tank. We're not a tank game and we're not going to put a tank in the game that can't be effectively suppressed when it doesn't have air cover. In time, we'll put in heavier tanks along with more specialized anti-tank aircraft, but we're not there yet.
BTW, the Il-2 originally had a cannon armament of 2 20mm Shvaks.
If indeed there is a problem, and I'm not denying there could be one, don't whine about it, don't make exaggerations. That only pulls attention away from the problem and towards the argument. If you can pop tanks like water balloons, show me a film. Make me say "oh that ain't right" rather than make me ascertain whether something is valid or just whining. I don't have that much time in the day. Thank you.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Problem - You don't like. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Solution - Cancel your account (I did) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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RAM:
A PzIVh has 20mm of armor on the rear and 30mm of armor on the side. This armor is hardly proof to Hispano AP rounds. A 1943 T-model T-34 has 47mm - 60mm of sloped armor on the sides and rear. If a Ju-87G carrying 30 rounds of 37mm can take out 12 T-34s, then an aircraft with 900 20mm Hispano rounds can take out a whole lot of PzIVh's.
There are a lot of tanks whose armor should be proof to Hispano's, but the PzIVh is not among them.
Hooligan
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Time to open an AH Daycare.
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Pyro, I think I understand hwhere you are coming from.
But the thing is that at the moment, it is impossible to effectively protect yourself against flying C hogs or Spitfires. An M-16 is a yummy easy kill for most pilots and if there's two around, they really make short work of it. Both dive in, one gets fired at, breaks off, other finishes M-16 off.
Maybe the solution would be a quadruple 20mm armed version of the Panzer?
Preferrably armed with hispanos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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HHHMMMM, Seems to me that in the early days of the war (WW2) the main gun on a tank was, (starting out early mind you) a .30 cal MG, then later a 20mm gun, a 30 mm gun and finally into the bigger waepons. Things like 73mm, 85m, 88m then 90mm.
Up until later in the war troops were using a Brit weapon called a .50 cal Boys anti tank rifle against light armor. Bet it was hard for them to get a hit on the upper armor from the ground!
Pyro, I for one agree with your contention that 20mm's are plenty for taking out tanks. I spent a bit of time in them in my Army career.
Mav
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Originally posted by Pyro:
An armor piercing round from an AN-M2 will penetrate 1/2" of face hardened plate at a 30 degree angle from over 600 yards. The top hull armor of the Panzer IV H is only 12mm(a little less than 1/2").
ummm thks for the data. I readed in a couple of books that it was 20mm,and I used to think that the data was reliable (because typhoon having some problems with 20mm over Normandy against Panzers),so then I must be wrong.
Don't use the term "tank" generically. A Panzer IV is not a T-34 or Panther or Tiger. Even the much maligned Sherman has a lot thicker armor on top than the Panzer IV.
agree 100%
There's a good reason why the Panzer IV is our first tank. We're not a tank game and we're not going to put a tank in the game that can't be effectively suppressed when it doesn't have air cover. In time, we'll put in heavier tanks along with more specialized anti-tank aircraft, but we're not there yet.
Ummm I see your point. But its clear that some people love driving tanks and right now they feel pissed off (and I can understand them) by the cannon hawg. M16 hasnt enough hitting power to give a effective cover and the panzer guys suffer because that. I hope that new AAA vehicles come soon, as the promised heavy tanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, the Il-2 originally had a cannon armament of 2 20mm Shvaks.
yep, to kill PanzerIII and early PanzerIV...lighter armor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If indeed there is a problem, and I'm not denying there could be one, don't whine about it, don't make exaggerations. That only pulls attention away from the problem and towards the argument. If you can pop tanks like water balloons, show me a film. Make me say "oh that ain't right" rather than make me ascertain whether something is valid or just whining. I don't have that much time in the day. Thank you.
Pyro, dont take me wrong. I dont whine about this, in fact I rarely go into a tank, and I love to kill'em with LW Mk108. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And a Mk108 was a slow HE round...
I only say that I understand the people whining about it...If the historical situation was that 20mms could penetrate panzer's armor with ease, then I shuddup, but please come with a heavier tank, one that needs a ground attack plane to kill it, not a fast nimble cannon hawg.
I used to love the low lever furballs with M16 and Panzers under us...now that rarely happens. The 30K guy is back,and I am sure that it is because noone dares to drive a Panzer to an enemy field, because if a Hawg spawns, they are done.
IMHO if you added a PanzerIV is for the people to have a good time driving them, not to be 100% pissed off by the "·$"%"·$% guy in the F4U. I agree this is a aircraft simulation, but the ground attac role was of paramount importance, as the armor killing.
Thanks for your time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Guys,
Put this whole tank thing in perspective....just a very short while ago, we didn't even have drivable ground vehicles here and nobody was threatening to leave. It's an evolutionary thing here.
That night I took out Mighty's column in a -1C should not be the case I agree, but I was in some kind of zone. Yesterday, I was not, just as Gronk, he filled me with lots of 75mm lead.
But we also haven't really worked on tank tactics yet either. Tanks roll from V43 to the Rook city which is right next to Rook A9 without suppressing that field at all. Ofcourse the column should get nailed from a nearby enemy airfield.
Without providing an Air Umbrella over the tankers, they will get decimated. Is the cannons on the Hawg right or wrong...I don't know, but I do know that rolling an armored column without air cover is definately wrong. Especially rolling one next to an enemy airfield without first suppressing that field.
Maverick has some great info on another thread regarding his real-life experiences in tankers. And AKWabbits points in this thread are well made, and I agree with him.
I think we just need to keep it in perspective is all. Let the tactics develop and evolve. Hell, this game is evolving and we are the ones actually helping to shape it. Ofcourse, I pay my hard-earned money for this, so I guess its not a bad trade-off.
When I get frustrated, I try different things...fly different planes, buff for a while, fly different styles, or sometimes, just take a break and step back. Then I come back in and its a new experience again.
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
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The missing factor in the ground component, COVER! there ain't any, I was in armor for several years, we would not move on a battlefield like this unless we were assured the bad guys had no air support, this place is a DAT's nightmare. When we moved up to the LOD (Line Of Departure) we moved from treeline to treeline, making highspeed dashes across the deadly open ground, here you are basically a target for the planes to hit,so get used to it. You aren't gonna see any really good groundwarfare tactics evolve until, or unless (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) the gang at HTC comes up with something to hide in. Don't bother crying for a Ostwind or the like, it won't make too much difference sitting out in the open screaming "kill me" 'cuz no matter how deadly the guns, it can only engage one incoming at a time.BTW Pyro, your data on the MkIV is dead on vice top penetration, but something seems odd about IV's vice extermely close HE blasts, these boys can let a 1000lbr go off next to them and maybe lose a track, 'stead of ending up upside down. Could you illuminate for me how the HE damage calculation works? I don't know enough about your model to draw a conclusion
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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A tank should not stand a chance against an attack plane. That is too simple to argue.
The argument against cover is valid. The main defense for tanks from aircraft was cover... an option that isn't available here. The only solution I see to this problem is to remove the icon from tanks. Once they are spotted.. they are dead meat. Just make them harder to spot.
AKDejaVu
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Apparently no one noticed the topic in the Aircraft & Vehicles Board where I posted the armor thickness and angle for the PanzerIV H.
Here they are, again, to make sure you get it right.
Armor:
Hull Front: (80mm) 3.2 in @80º
Hull Sides: (30mm) 1.2 in @90º
Hull Rear: (20mm) .8 in @78°
Turret Front: (50mm) 2 in @79º
Turret Sides: (30mm) 1.2 in @64º
Turret Rear: (30mm) 1.2 in @74º
Turret Roof: (10mm) .4 in @74º
If you need any other Panzer specs, gimme a yell.
Flakbait
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What is the source for your numbers..
I got 15mm turret and 16mm hull top for the Panzer IV H. That is from After the Battle -Panzers in Normandy a very excellent book BTW. I dont think that it would matter against a well placed burst of 20mm but it might cut down on a few kills..
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flakbait, what is the thickness of the Hull Roof? I don't see that listed.
Sisu
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AKDejaVu made an excellent point. In the real world AFVs also made use of night and inclement weather to avoid air attack, an option that is unavailable in AH. Another thing to remember is that 20mm AP shouldn't have any problem taking the tracks off of any WWII tank made, and a mobility kill on a tank is probably as good as a complete kill in most cases for AH.
Hooligan
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As a tanker in AH I don't think it's a issue of how strong the guns are in a 1C but of how easy a tank is seen.
As everyone a mentioned in real life the tank tried to hide under cover as much as possible..something we can't do here.
Our tanks can be seen from D8 or farther and have no hope of hiding.
I think the best solution is to decrease the visability of the tank to around D3.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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This web site had PzKpfw IV H data:
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/fpz4h.htm (http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/fpz4h.htm)
I don't play the game yet, but I would think that the hispano armed fighter would have to come in steep (>60 degrees w/ground) and low to score a tank kill by gun. Thus making the pull out less than easy.
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Good answer Pyro! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)