Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on January 16, 2007, 11:18:18 PM
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Because you guys some no-where near as stoopid as the rest of ya country :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI&eurl=
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I saw that posted on another message board I visit & I told them what I'll tell you, They didn't use the video of the hundreds of people who got their answers right only the few who got them wrong...& besides even the Aussies don't recognize John Howard :rofl
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Originally posted by Chairboy
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i wonder how many people they had to approach before they found enough stupid people to make a show?
host to person:: excuse me , can you name a country that begins with a "u"?
person:: united states.
host to camera man:: delete that.
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OMG, hahaha
"I'm a little mixed up between the Palestinians and the...Israeli's. Which one's throwing the rocks?"
:rofl
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Can we attack Australia now? All of their beer belongs to us.
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just keep swimmin ,,,just keep swimmin ,,,just keep swimmin ,,,
(http://www.celluloid-dreams.de/content/images/kritiken-filmbilder/findet-nemo/findet-nemo.jpg)
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LOL that is funny. If you give me a map and a country I might be able to point it out, or know what part of the world its at. I'm glad in Oklahoma that we just keep spending money towards our education. I go to probably the best public school in Oklahoma and I knew probably 90% of those questions.
Where is the country of North America? Um in South America?
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how embarassing. funny stuff though.
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Brenjen is pretty much spot on. This could be done anywhere.
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nope... mostly Americans here. stupid as stumps. It would really be pretty bad to get beat up by an American here.
lazs
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heh..
I agree completely with lazs.
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One of the most frustrating parts was at the end where people were asserting that they support military action against Kyrgistan, on nothing more than the basis of 'it's supporting the president'.
It doesn't matter who the president is, we have a duty to remain well informed citizenry. Ignorance is the soil in which tyranny blooms, and a republic can, no, WILL grow into a defacto autocracy if nobody's watching.
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North Korea & France placed right next to New Zealand on a map... brilliant, just brilliant!
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well at least the have belgium as the capital of teh france correct
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Who says our public schools have failed?
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some aussie thread starter did, burn the witch
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Americans are morons.
But what do you call the rather large group of people who currently find themselves subject to American military and economic might, not to mention corporate and popular culture?
Oh yeah... The rest of the world.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Americans are morons.
But what do you call the rather large group of people who currently find themselves subject to American military and economic might, not to mention corporate and popular culture?
Oh yeah... The rest of the world.
ouch!
:rofl
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omg :rofl To be fair, I think you could that result from any countrys population, just by editing.These boards show that not all U.S. citizens are brain dead.
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This is something I posted in another thread in the Aircraft and Vehicals forum. Towards the end this shows you how much we Americans know about World War 2 (Only thing most Americans know is that Hitler was bad)
Gosh kids these days, and they don't know their history. I'm only 18, but I've been watching the History channel, and reading about planes and other history stuff since I was like 13. I always had a thing for the History channel. I just hate it when someone in class says "My grandpa flew the B-52 bomber in WW2" I said "B-52 didn't see service in WW2 or any thing close to that, it came out in the 50s." He said "Dude you don't know what your talking about. Its that 4 engine prop plane that dropped the first nuke." I said "Your talking about the B-29, the four engine prop plane." He said "No dude that was a jet." Me say "Okay what ever get a history book and look." I have proven to like 10 people that the B-52 DID NOT fly in WW2 and that the B-29 is not a jet bomber. Gosh any one have a story like this.
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Originally posted by VooWho
This is something I posted in another thread in the Aircraft and Vehicals forum. Towards the end this shows you how much we Americans know about World War 2 (Only thing most Americans know is that Hitler was bad)
Gosh kids these days, and they don't know their history. I'm only 18, but I've been watching the History channel, and reading about planes and other history stuff since I was like 13. I always had a thing for the History channel. I just hate it when someone in class says "My grandpa flew the B-52 bomber in WW2" I said "B-52 didn't see service in WW2 or any thing close to that, it came out in the 50s." He said "Dude you don't know what your talking about. Its that 4 engine prop plane that dropped the first nuke." I said "Your talking about the B-29, the four engine prop plane." He said "No dude that was a jet." Me say "Okay what ever get a history book and look." I have proven to like 10 people that the B-52 DID NOT fly in WW2 and that the B-29 is not a jet bomber. Gosh any one have a story like this.
Way back in the stone age when I went to high school, a buddy of mine
claimed his father fired a 50mm machinegun from the hip. He continued to
claim it was 50mm even after I suggested that even a 50 caliber mg would
be virtually impossible to fire from the hip.
Would have liked to see the poor SOB who had to carry the ammo for
that 50mm ;).
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irrespective of country next time you purchase something and pay challenge the person on the change received and see what the response is.
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Not trying to be mean or racist here but I have a story. I only have $5.00 and I head off to McDonalds. (before I tell the rest of the story, Notice how alot of cashier have to look at the computer to figure out the change. Okay sir your total is $4.00, Okay you got a 5....Long pause....looks at screen, heres your change sir) So I pull up to the drive threw and I get the operator. "Hello welcome to McDonalds how may I help you. "Uh yea I like the #3 (Egg McMuffin), 2 Hash Browns, and a Milk. Thats all" "Okay you order a #3 with 2 Hash Browns, and a Milk. Your total is $4.50, come to the first window. (here comes the part you might think I'm racists) I pull up to the first window. Its a white guy in his late 30s early 40s. Hes about to get my change, and then he says hold on. A hispanic man comes to him and says something like help. I say okay. The man comes back in like 1min and says "Sorry sir for the wait," and he shakes his head like OMG dumb people I work with. (that kinda look) He hands me my change and I move to the next window. When I got to the next window I said to myself. Oh this is the McDonalds with all Hispanics who don't speak or know little English I better check my stuff that I got the right order. I look inside the window again, and I see that there all looking at the screen of the orders. Hmmm I said to myself. I guess they can't get it wrong they might have it in spanish. I get my food and drive home. When I open my bag, I see 2 egg McMuffins and 1 hash brown, and no milk. I say to my self WTF! They got it wrong and they had a screen in front of them, and I was one out of two cars in line, OMG! But then I relised that the McMuffin was like $3.25 and I got 2. Hmm hell yes I got a better deal. So in the end I came out okay, but no milk :(
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I like to have fun at the drive throughs. Poor mooks stuck behind me. :D
Say the cost ends up being $3.90. I pull up, hand them $4.00, and just as they punch in the $4.00 to see how much change I have coming back, I say, "Wait! I have the ninety cents!". I hand it to them.
Half the time they have to go get the manager as they have no idea how much change they should give back. One time, the mook took the money, then handed me a dime. I said, "Uh, you owe me ninety cents". He says, "No I dunt, the resgister tells me how much to give you. If I give any different, I will get fired!". About that time the manager comes over and straightens it all out, by taking the dime back and handing me a dollar.
The clown the goes, "I hope you remember that when my register does not add up.".
Hehe,.. I pull away laughing my butt off. I really do not have a lot of tolerance for stupidity. Mooks I can handle. Stupid mooks are another thing. :)
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If you wait until they enter the amount to give them more money it will come up wrong. (won't it? - I'm no math whiz, but I can count back change lol) They don't have the authority to override the amount like when we were younger, they just hit "no sale" & rung it up again, now you have to use a key. It's crazy & the stupidity of the average person (& dishonesty) has created the problem but there it is.
I agree it's pretty funny that people can't count back change.
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Yes, but anyone who has a clue will just give back the right amount of change. All that matters is the register balances at the end of the day.
Some of them are just plain stupid.
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indeed
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I agree. Like I said, I'm no math whiz but I know how those chains work, ten cents off & you're in a world of $*^@ & they don't care what your excuse is. The restaurants themselves foster that "just trust the computer in the register & do what it says" attitude.
Have you looked at one lately? They don't even ring up individual items anymore, they just push the button with the picture of what you want on it. It's not surprising they can't count or read.
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Every where in the world you will find morons. This is a universal constant.
It's just that the US education system is degraded because of the conservative movements that are graduated, while every where else in the world graduates damn near rabid socialists. Hell, it's even done by our own liberals in our own country.
With the exception of inner city schools (which are ****ed anyway), there is nothing wrong with our public education system.
The best way to degrade a political position, and the reasoning for such, is to insult the base education.
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As a current student in High School I can say that my teachers do teach, and I do learn something new, but they teach it so boring that students fall asleep. Also teachers talk about (here in Oklahoma) that they don't get paid much, and I think this also has to do with the way our teachers are teaching. Teachers need to make learning fun like they do in the movies. I fall asleep in class sometimes because the teacher just talks in a mono voice for 50min. "During the 1950s, threw the 1980s the United States and the USSR....YAWWNNN....where in the middle of the cold war....." Just a mono voice with a yawn. Some of my teachers are fun, because they do make the class fun when there not teaching, but when they start lecturing, its like time stops, and nothing every happens and it stays the same.
I believe that if the teachers got paid more, and we could do more things (because schools are stricked on things) then maybe we all could learn something. I have seen teachers teach little, then someone comes into class to see how they teach, and they teach and the class learns something, then the next day its YAWNNN! In my science classes we barely do any hands on things. I love to learn when we are up, and moving and doing hands on activities. I can't just seat down 50min, listen to a teacher and take notes for the test next week. Thats not learning, that just saying I don't want to stand up, tell you how and why these things happen, then ask you questions on how these things could have been different, or how if this didn't happen how could this have changed history? There just saying I just want to give you answers so you can study them, pass the class and I can B***h about my pay.
My parents ask my about my grades. I well say I don't make the best of grades (but I do pass) they ask me "Why did you get a C in this class" I tell them "they don't make the class intersting. How do I seat for hours listening to teachers talk mono tone about a topic, or get asigned homework to take notes then take a quiz the next day. I can't describe it. Its just to complecated to describe in words, the way teachers teach.
How do they teach in Europe?
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Originally posted by VooWho
and I knew probably 90% of those questions.
Now you're scaring me.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I agree. Like I said, I'm no math whiz but I know how those chains work, ten cents off & you're in a world of $*^@ & they don't care what your excuse is. The restaurants themselves foster that "just trust the computer in the register & do what it says" attitude.
Have you looked at one lately? They don't even ring up individual items anymore, they just push the button with the picture of what you want on it. It's not surprising they can't count or read.
That is why I never order by a number on the menu. I tell them the individual items I want. Hehe.
The restaurants had to go to ICON driven registers. What else can you do when over 30% of high school graduates have absolutely abysmal reading comprehension skills.
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I bet your boring English teacher would have fits if he/she saw that post voohoo. :)
The vid is a laugh, but those guys are right, you could do the same thing in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth etc and get the same kind of results if you kept looking long enough.
You probably wouldn't get away with the "I'm John Howard, PM of Oz" bit though.
Getting people to mention New Zealand as part of the Axis of Evil would be easier but.
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Originally posted by Rino
Way back in the stone age when I went to high school, a buddy of mine
claimed his father fired a 50mm machinegun from the hip. He continued to
claim it was 50mm even after I suggested that even a 50 caliber mg would
be virtually impossible to fire from the hip.
Would have liked to see the poor SOB who had to carry the ammo for
that 50mm ;).
Somebody saw Rambo that day. And that was a M60, of course.
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maybe if teachers worked 12 months a year they would get paid more.
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Since when have students been excused from having any responsbility to read and learn? Teachers are not entertainers. Everything you need to know for a course should be in the textbook. Read it and think about it. If you don't understand it then dig some more until you do understand it. You can find the answer to darn near anything on the internet. If that still doesn't work, ask your teacher.
I hope you don't expect your future jobs and bosses to be entertaining and do your work for you? :D
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Originally posted by VooWho
As a current student in High School I can say that my teachers do teach, and I do learn something new
I don't:p In all seriousness though, I didn't even watch the video and just wanted to up my post count.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
The vid is a laugh, but those guys are right, you could do the same thing in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth etc and get the same kind of results if you kept looking long enough.
I agree. Australians are stupid.
:D
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Originally posted by VooWho Not trying to be mean or racist here but I have a story. I only have $5.00 and I head off to McDonalds. (before I tell the rest of the story, Notice how alot of cashier have to look at the computer to figure out the change. Okay sir your total is $4.00, Okay you got a 5....Long pause....looks at screen, heres your change sir) So I pull up to the drive threw and I get the operator. "Hello welcome to McDonalds how may I help you. "Uh yea I like the #3 (Egg McMuffin), 2 Hash Browns, and a Milk. Thats all" "Okay you order a #3 with 2 Hash Browns, and a Milk. Your total is $4.50, come to the first window. (here comes the part you might think I'm racists) I pull up to the first window. Its a white guy in his late 30s early 40s. Hes about to get my change, and then he says hold on. A hispanic man comes to him and says something like help. I say okay. The man comes back in like 1min and says "Sorry sir for the wait," and he shakes his head like OMG dumb people I work with. (that kinda look) He hands me my change and I move to the next window. When I got to the next window I said to myself. Oh this is the McDonalds with all Hispanics who don't speak or know little English I better check my stuff that I got the right order. I look inside the window again, and I see that there all looking at the screen of the orders. Hmmm I said to myself. I guess they can't get it wrong they might have it in spanish. I get my food and drive home. When I open my bag, I see 2 egg McMuffins and 1 hash brown, and no milk. I say to my self WTF! They got it wrong and they had a screen in front of them, and I was one out of two cars in line, OMG! But then I relised that the McMuffin was like $3.25 and I got 2. Hmm hell yes I got a better deal. So in the end I came out okay, but no milk :(
"Whose house is of glass, must not throw stones at another." - George Herbert (1651).
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Originally posted by VooWho
As a current student in High School I can say that my teachers do teach, and I do learn something new, but they teach it so boring that students fall asleep. Also teachers talk about (here in Oklahoma) that they don't get paid much, and I think this also has to do with the way our teachers are teaching. Teachers need to make learning fun like they do in the movies. I fall asleep in class sometimes because the teacher just talks in a mono voice for 50min. "During the 1950s, threw the 1980s the United States and the USSR....YAWWNNN....where in the middle of the cold war....." Just a mono voice with a yawn. Some of my teachers are fun, because they do make the class fun when there not teaching, but when they start lecturing, its like time stops, and nothing every happens and it stays the same.
I believe that if the teachers got paid more, and we could do more things (because schools are stricked on things) then maybe we all could learn something. I have seen teachers teach little, then someone comes into class to see how they teach, and they teach and the class learns something, then the next day its YAWNNN! In my science classes we barely do any hands on things. I love to learn when we are up, and moving and doing hands on activities. I can't just seat down 50min, listen to a teacher and take notes for the test next week. Thats not learning, that just saying I don't want to stand up, tell you how and why these things happen, then ask you questions on how these things could have been different, or how if this didn't happen how could this have changed history? There just saying I just want to give you answers so you can study them, pass the class and I can B***h about my pay.
My parents ask my about my grades. I well say I don't make the best of grades (but I do pass) they ask me "Why did you get a C in this class" I tell them "they don't make the class intersting. How do I seat for hours listening to teachers talk mono tone about a topic, or get asigned homework to take notes then take a quiz the next day. I can't describe it. Its just to complecated to describe in words, the way teachers teach.
How do they teach in Europe?
Well, VooHoo, get used to it. With No Child Left Behind teachers are getting more and more curtailed. Teach the test, teach the test!
Relax though, once you get to college you'll find there are some interesting professors who play by their own rules when it comes to teaching, and as it turns out, their rules work.
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Logic, math, and philosophy = automatic, self-sufficient critical thinking faculties.
It's the basis to everything else that follows, be it in liberal arts like music, or applied sciences like engineering.
And IMO the basic problem>solution thinking you are taught to continually assess in loops, in engineering disciplines, in other words, the problem solving approach, applies to anything and everything. I don't understand why it isn't recognized as such.
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john... how dare you suggest that our teachers work full time for full time pay...
It is like peeing on a statue of the saints or something.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
john... how dare you suggest that our teachers work full time for full time pay...
It is like peeing on a statue of the saints or something.
lazs
I know! That'd be like a construction worker taking unemployment during the winter :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Vudak
Well, VooHoo, get used to it. With No Child Left Behind teachers are getting more and more curtailed. Teach the test, teach the test!
Relax though, once you get to college you'll find there are some interesting professors who play by their own rules when it comes to teaching, and as it turns out, their rules work.
Blaming teaching standards for lazy unprincipled teachers is like blaming kids who are not disciplined for failing to learn to read.
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Originally posted by lukster
Blaming teaching standards for lazy unprincipled teachers is like blaming kids who are not disciplined for failing to learn to read.
Oh I agree. Which is why I did not do that.
I am blaming teaching standards like No Child Left Behind for making classroom's boring, which is what I took as VooHoo's major issue with school.
Call me crazy, but I subscribe to the idea that an interested kid will learn more than a bored one.
Sure, flashcards, or drilling, works great for getting someone to pass a test with a higher test score short term, but what good is it in the long run?
I can get an A on a German test by doing that and barely be able to speak what was on the test a week or so later.
I think the best thought on education came from one of my college professors... "The whole point of a 400-level class is not to get a high grade... The point is to learn something."
I'd argue that should be the whole point of ever level class...
It's sad that in this world we have a situation where you could get a B in a class yet really retain some key knowledge, yet an employer would be more interested in Mr. Flashcard who got an A and then forgot everything.
It MIGHT just have something to do with how so many people roll their eyes at the college educated...
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
The restaurants had to go to ICON driven registers. What else can you do when over 30% of high school graduates have absolutely abysmal reading comprehension skills.
Or when 70% of fast food workers don't read or speak English and are totally ambivalent about learning to do so.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Oh I agree. Which is why I did not do that.
I am blaming teaching standards like No Child Left Behind for making classroom's boring, which is what I took as VooHoo's major issue with school.
Call me crazy, but I subscribe to the idea that an interested kid will learn more than a bored one.
Sure, flashcards, or drilling, works great for getting someone to pass a test with a higher test score short term, but what good is it in the long run?
I can get an A on a German test by doing that and barely be able to speak what was on the test a week or so later.
I think the best thought on education came from one of my college professors... "The whole point of a 400-level class is not to get a high grade... The point is to learn something."
I'd argue that should be the whole point of ever level class...
It's sad that in this world we have a situation where you could get a B in a class yet really retain some key knowledge, yet an employer would be more interested in Mr. Flashcard who got an A and then forgot everything.
It MIGHT just have something to do with how so many people roll their eyes at the college educated...
Ah thank you, you've said every thing that I was trying to say. I have already forgotten things from a week ago. In my Algebra 2 class, I knew how to do Logs, then a week later, Um help.
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Originally posted by Toad
Or when 70% of fast food workers don't read or speak English and are totally ambivalent about learning to do so.
Could be related, but around our immediate area every seems to know English at the fast food places.
The only one I have run into which stuggled with English was a beautiful lady from Argentina. And she was studying the language. By now, she probably speaks English better than most of us who were born in the U.S.
Maybe not "better", but far more accurately.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Oh I agree. Which is why I did not do that.
I am blaming teaching standards like No Child Left Behind for making classroom's boring, which is what I took as VooHoo's major issue with school.
Call me crazy, but I subscribe to the idea that an interested kid will learn more than a bored one.
Sure, flashcards, or drilling, works great for getting someone to pass a test with a higher test score short term, but what good is it in the long run?
I can get an A on a German test by doing that and barely be able to speak what was on the test a week or so later.
I think the best thought on education came from one of my college professors... "The whole point of a 400-level class is not to get a high grade... The point is to learn something."
I'd argue that should be the whole point of ever level class...
It's sad that in this world we have a situation where you could get a B in a class yet really retain some key knowledge, yet an employer would be more interested in Mr. Flashcard who got an A and then forgot everything.
It MIGHT just have something to do with how so many people roll their eyes at the college educated...
How will you know learning is taking place without testing? Reading comprehension is easy to test and cannot be faked. Same with math. Teachers complaining about standards in these areas are just plain lazy imo. The students who remember enough of subjects like history and geography a year or two later were probably taught in an interesting way. Students of those teachers who "taught the test" probably won't remember the subjects well enough to pass a test a couple of years later.
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vudak... are you seriously saying that construction workers getting unemployment is the same thing as part time teachers getting full time pay?
Teachers always go on about how little they make a year when none of em have ever worked a whole year in their lives.
lazs
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Originally posted by Vulcan
I agree. Australians are stupid.
:D
He he, guess I shoulda seen that one comin' eh hori?
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Originally posted by lazs2
vudak... are you seriously saying that construction workers getting unemployment is the same thing as part time teachers getting full time pay?
Teachers always go on about how little they make a year when none of em have ever worked a whole year in their lives.
lazs
I was talking about full-time teachers, as in September through June... If you're talking about substitutes, then, ok we agree.
But I am seriously saying that a full-time teacher who gets two and half months off in the summer, and a construction worker who gets two and a half months off in the winter are the same in many ways, except pay, where the teacher gets the short straw.
And before people start talking about how few hours teachers work compared to construction workers... Go talk to some teachers and see where they live compared to where they work. Then ask them how long they're required to stay after school. Then ask them how many hours they put in each week at home grading things and preparing for the next day. Then ask them how pleasant it is dealing with kids who've been raised by wolves.
Saying a teacher's job doesn't deserve full pay doesn't make sense to me, but I'll admit that I'm biased, as I come from a family full of them.
And Lukster, I'm not saying "Don't test kids." I'm saying, "Don't teach kids the test."
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lazs...
While I agree with you about a great many things, I've gotta take exception with what you said about teaching.
And for all the sundry who still believe that teachers get paid twelve months of the year for doing only nine months work you must be incredibly thick-headed....or due a tax refund to compensate you for the failure of the public school system to properly prepare you for life in a world that requires coherent thought.
Teachers only get paid for NINE months of work. That pay is stretched into enough payments to cover a twelve month period. Try to grasp the concept. The three months of "vacation" in the summer is actually a period of unemployment. Part of that time, at least for teachers in Arkansas, must be taken up with state-mandated training amounting to two weeks of attending extremely boring and often useless "educational workshops." Since teacher salaries are best categorized as being only fair secondary incomes for a family, many teachers spend the summer months looking for part-time employment.
I often spent my summers painting houses or doing light carpentry work to earn extra money to buy the little niceties of life that the regular monthly paycheck did not cover.
I've laid insulation, re-shingled the roofs of houses, scraped and primed and painted houses for a small pittance of what I could have earned if I had worked for a construction company because selling my services cheaply was the only way I could compete. The one saving grace about that type of construction work was that I did not have to bring it home with me.
The last year I taught in a public school I had 107 students. Teachers in bigger school districts have more than that. I always took my teaching seriously, so I assigned and graded papers after each days' lesson. Six classes a day. I could NOT leave that work at school. Most nights I graded papers until 10:30 or 11:00 at night. I graded papers on Saturday and Sunday. If I went to visit my parents I took papers with me. If the wife and I took a trip to Little Rock to do some shopping I took papers and grade-book along. There was little spare time that I could call my own.
Being a man, I was expected to break up, or attempt to break up, any and all fights that occurred on campus. After one such scuffle I found I had been sprayed quite liberally with the blood of one of the combatants. I've taken knives and num-chucks off of students. I've parked the bus I happened to be driving on a route, set the emergency brake, got out of the vehicle, crawled under it and pulled to the safety of the curb it a first grader who had just crawled under it.
After 26 years of experience and being the proud recipient of a master's degree I had maxed out my take home pay. I was the highest paid instructor in my school. Maximum net take-home pay....$2,200 a month. The wife and I and two sons and one son's fiance live in a double-wide "modular" home. I drive a used Chevy Cavalier.
Total amount in savings after almost 30 years of teaching....zilch....none.... nada.
Three years ago I left the teaching profession and began drawing my retirement of $1,600 a month. I teach full-time, year-round at a juvenile facility run by a private company. The extra money has been a life-saver for the wife and I. If I had not quit teaching in the public schools we quite probably would have had to declare bankruptcy.
I'm sure most of you guys work hard to earn your money. I respect that. So please stop spouting all those tired old cliches and myths about teachers not earning their pay...or having an easy job.
Brother, I've EARNED every cent I ever got from the profession.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by VooWho
LOL that is funny. If you give me a map and a country I might be able to point it out, or know what part of the world its at. I'm glad in Oklahoma that we just keep spending money towards our education. I go to probably the best public school in Oklahoma and I knew probably 90% of those questions.
Where is the country of North America? Um in South America?
Owasso here.... Best schools in Oklahoma.
:aok
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
Owasso here.... Best schools in Oklahoma.
:aok
Mac
Na Jenks is the best. Owasso is also good. Owasso sure is growing.
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"After one such scuffle I found I had been sprayed quite liberally with the blood of one of the combatants. I've taken knives and num-chucks off of students."
LOL, yep...you were a teacher in an Arkansas school alright. :rofl
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Teachers only get paid for NINE months of work. That pay is stretched into enough payments to cover a twelve month period.
Yep. I forgot to mention that.
Shuckins, I'll give you almost the same and thanks I'd give a guy in the military. If you happened to work in Hartford or NYC, I'd probably give you exactly the same one :D
People don't understand what a sacrifice being a teacher really is.
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so why aren't the schools open 12 months so the teachers can earn a 12 months salary? "Back in the day" the kids were needed to work on the farms in the summer, now the kids are not needed to work on the farms, so why are the schools still closed in the summer?
i would think the teachers would be the first to demand that the schools be open year round, unless they like having the summers off.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Yep. I forgot to mention that.
Shuckins, I'll give you almost the same and thanks I'd give a guy in the military. If you happened to work in Hartford or NYC, I'd probably give you exactly the same one :D
People don't understand what a sacrifice being a teacher really is.
No doubt there are some hard working teachers worth more than they are paid. Unfortunately for all of us this is not true for all of them and the proof is in the pudding.
Apart from that, aren't most teachers on salary? You can't really say they are only paid for nine months if that's true.
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Lukster,
The method of payment varies from state to state and from district to district. In some places, the teacher can opt to get all their salary in nine payments, although WHY anyone would want to do so puzzles me. That leaves the three summer months without any income whatsoever.
When I first started teaching I chose to take mine in twelve monthly payments. Since the Huckster saw fit to "fix" education in this state and force consolidation of some rural schools (the dirty sum*****) the modern teacher's salary covers 180 days of work. In addition, there are two weeks of workshops that must be attended....for a total of 190 days of work.
The proof is definitely in the pudding. The schools are there to make an education available....but you have to reach out and grab it with both hands.
That's kind of hard for a modern student to do because their hands are so often wrapped around the control pad of a video game, or they are other wise occupied with a hundred different forms of entertainment that distract them from their studies. There is far more of that type of impediment to learning in today's world than there was when I was in my youth.
As a result, many of todays' youth are not as well versed in the basics as they were in generations past. This is not the fault of the educational system. While there have been some changes in the field of education that I feel have been detrimental the fact of the matter it is the responsibility of the parents and the students themselves to make certain that they get a complete education.
So every parent should ask themselves, "Do I need to become more involved in my child's education?"
Regards, Shuckins
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The method of payment varies from state to state and from district to district. In some places, the teacher can opt to get all their salary in nine payments, although WHY anyone would want to do so puzzles me. That leaves the three summer months without any income whatsoever.
Are... are you serious?
That leaves the three summer months without any income whatsoever.
You have to be pulling our chain... You can't possibly be serious.
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No....I'm not yanking your chain. Arkansas' teachers draw only one check a month. Years ago they had the option of getting either nine checks a year or twelve. Most districts have abandoned the practice, but it is still offered in some I believe.
In all honesty I'm not certain how prevalent the practice is in other states, although some used it in the not too distant past. Anyone out there have any information on that?
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You do realize that it's the same, right? You're getting the same amount of money whether you pick 9 or 12 months...
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Yes...I realize it's the same amount of money. I strongly suspect that ALL the posters on these boards realize that it is the same amount of money.
The problem with the nine month method of payment is that the teacher must SAVE part of it to pay bills during the three months of the summer when no checks are coming in.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Yes...I realize it's the same amount of money. I strongly suspect that ALL the posters on these boards realize that it is the same amount of money.
The problem with the nine month method of payment is that the teacher must SAVE part of it to pay bills during the three months of the summer when no checks are coming in.
Or, teach summer school. :aok
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Not on your life Magee! I needed that summer sabbatical to recapture my sanity! And believe you me that rascal shore runs fast!
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Hey Shuckins, if ya see mine while your chasing yours, would you mnd pointing him in my direction? Thanks!
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Sure will Skuzzy. What does the scamp look like?
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Hell, if I knew I would bag the little rascal myself. I know if I catch him, I will be able to identify him then, but until I can, his identification remains a mystery, except to him, which is why I cannot recall. He has it!
Uh-oh,..I think I hurt sumpthin.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
In all honesty I'm not certain how prevalent the practice is in other states, although some used it in the not too distant past. Anyone out there have any information on that?
My mother has the 9 month/ 12 month option in CT, or at least she did last time I checked.
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Last time I caught up with mine, he was hangin' with Will Ferrell.
I was SO embarassed! :o
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Originally posted by Shuckins
lazs...
While I agree with you about a great many things, I've gotta take exception with what you said about teaching.
And for all the sundry who still believe that teachers get paid twelve months of the year for doing only nine months work you must be incredibly thick-headed....or due a tax refund to compensate you for the failure of the public school system to properly prepare you for life in a world that requires coherent thought.
Teachers only get paid for NINE months of work. That pay is stretched into enough payments to cover a twelve month period. Try to grasp the concept. The three months of "vacation" in the summer is actually a period of unemployment. Part of that time, at least for teachers in Arkansas, must be taken up with state-mandated training amounting to two weeks of attending extremely boring and often useless "educational workshops." Since teacher salaries are best categorized as being only fair secondary incomes for a family, many teachers spend the summer months looking for part-time employment.
I often spent my summers painting houses or doing light carpentry work to earn extra money to buy the little niceties of life that the regular monthly paycheck did not cover.
I've laid insulation, re-shingled the roofs of houses, scraped and primed and painted houses for a small pittance of what I could have earned if I had worked for a construction company because selling my services cheaply was the only way I could compete. The one saving grace about that type of construction work was that I did not have to bring it home with me.
The last year I taught in a public school I had 107 students. Teachers in bigger school districts have more than that. I always took my teaching seriously, so I assigned and graded papers after each days' lesson. Six classes a day. I could NOT leave that work at school. Most nights I graded papers until 10:30 or 11:00 at night. I graded papers on Saturday and Sunday. If I went to visit my parents I took papers with me. If the wife and I took a trip to Little Rock to do some shopping I took papers and grade-book along. There was little spare time that I could call my own.
Being a man, I was expected to break up, or attempt to break up, any and all fights that occurred on campus. After one such scuffle I found I had been sprayed quite liberally with the blood of one of the combatants. I've taken knives and num-chucks off of students. I've parked the bus I happened to be driving on a route, set the emergency brake, got out of the vehicle, crawled under it and pulled to the safety of the curb it a first grader who had just crawled under it.
After 26 years of experience and being the proud recipient of a master's degree I had maxed out my take home pay. I was the highest paid instructor in my school. Maximum net take-home pay....$2,200 a month. The wife and I and two sons and one son's fiance live in a double-wide "modular" home. I drive a used Chevy Cavalier.
Total amount in savings after almost 30 years of teaching....zilch....none.... nada.
Three years ago I left the teaching profession and began drawing my retirement of $1,600 a month. I teach full-time, year-round at a juvenile facility run by a private company. The extra money has been a life-saver for the wife and I. If I had not quit teaching in the public schools we quite probably would have had to declare bankruptcy.
I'm sure most of you guys work hard to earn your money. I respect that. So please stop spouting all those tired old cliches and myths about teachers not earning their pay...or having an easy job.
Brother, I've EARNED every cent I ever got from the profession.
Regards, Shuckins
Shuckins , this must be a state thing, back when i was in highschool in the 90s i knew teachers that were 3 years out of school making more then that. I am not sure what the average wage in your state is, but i know every state is different...
I know a techer in flordia her first year teaching is making close to 40 a year, and works 7:30 to 4 every day, she grades most of her papers in her free hour in school..
Im sorry to hear all the issues you had.
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shukins and vulcan... I was not talking about how much teachers make a month....I was talking about a yearly salary... I may be thickheaded but you might need to look at yourselves too.
They get paid a yearly salary that is very high for nine months work. A full time salary for part time work... where else does that happen? I doubt that you would want to work construction and then live off the unemployment... I have an idea... you should work for 9 month salary and then live off unemployment for the other three... just like every other part time worker in the U.S. And... if you take another job in the summer then your unemployment would be cut off.. just like everyone else... but... you don't think you are like everyone else now do you?
I also have teachers in my family and we have had this conversation. they act like saints that have been blasphemed about.
They have no real talent that anyone it the world could not aquire... their education and experiance is nothing to get excited about... often.. they teach because... well... it is better than getting a real job with real competition and...
the likelyhood of getting fired... They teach because they are afraid to do a real job. Harsh? well... hiding behind the sanctity of a closed system and never leaving the womb of the school from kindergarden to retirement...
not in every case but... enough.
And yes... I think we should all get our tax money spent on public schools back... every year they get worse.... give us the money as a voucher so that you teachers can't destroy yet another generation.
I know that my ex and I will have to shoulder the burden of paying for a real education for our grand daughter. We don't want her in the system you have created.
Sorry... you aren't saints...you are selfish protected species that needs to be let loose in the wild again to compete.
vouchers are the only fair way.
And... I didn't ask you to work overtime for free... you shouldn't do it. You could maybe spend the hours a day that you do nothing running the test papers through a computer to grade em or read em... If you can't do it in 8 hours then we will pay overtime or fire you and get someone who can. I never seen a teacher who taught for 8 hours a day.
most here have "teachers days" the entire day off.... even in the 9 months they do work they have at least twice as many holidays as people who work a full year... the schools are empty at 3:30 including most of the teachers.
I think it is gutless to have a monopoly on some tax supported and badly run institution and then act like you are suffering and doing us all a favor out of the goodness of your hearts. It is crap. You aren't saints.
lazs
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lazs :aok
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lazs2, I couldn't have said it better myself. :aok
And I'll add an additional observation of my own. While I was getting my engineering degree (WAAY back in the seventies) it was a commonly held belief on campus that the School of Education was the last chance for all those students who found themselves unable to cut it in more challenging curriculums. :cry
Just fanning the flames.:D
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I don't think it's the teachers that have destroyed the public school system. It's the liberal mindset, they used to grade you for the work YOU did, now they grade on a curve so the dumb kids can still pass, like welfare for the mind. (how does that make sense?)
When they decide to grade you on your own merits & flunk the idiots regardless of their race, creed or religion & arrest them for truancy when they don't show up for school; that's when it will get better (it never will).
I like the voucher idea, I agreed with that from the first moment I heard it being entertained. Public schools are beyond hope & the public school system, from the local administration (school board) all the way up to the federal govt. are equally to blame.
There is a huge laundry list of problems with public schools, but the teachers didn't cause the problems. The teachers jumped on for the ride, but they didn't cause it.
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Teaching is an honorable profession and grossly underpaid. It is definitely NOT something anyone could do. The best of teachers are artists.
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Lasz,
Don't make the assumption that I'm defending the public school system. I'm not. I support the issuance of school vouchers and parental choice.
I have backed that belief with personal action, to the point of pulling my youngest out of the very school in which I taught, knowing full well that it would p i s s off my superintendent. The district had allowed the children of two local ladies, one of whom was the wife of a board member, to skip a grade in order to be in a class with more "capable" children. I wanted my youngest to start school in the same class with my oldest son, because the children in his class were top knotch, while those in my youngest son's class were shaping up to be a bunch of hooligans.
When the superintendent and elementary principle refused my request, I pulled him out of school. According to state law there wasn't a dam-med thing they could do about it. The first year of his school career was spent at home being educated by the wife under my supervision, and all the materials were supplied by my district. The principal even threatened to take the wife to court (I didn't find out about that until much later) but nothing came of it.
The education of my child is MY responsibility and not the school's. Period. Anybody who disagrees can kiss my fat hairy....well I won't go there.
What I'm defending is the thirty years I've devoted to this profession and the outstanding individuals it has been my privilege to associate with during that time.
Does the teaching profession have crappy members whose only positive contribution to the world has been their production of fertilizer? Sure....but every profession has them. Aren't there people in your line of work (What the hell do you DO anyway?) that you would prefer to see digging ditches with a ball and chain around their ankles? I'll bet the answer is "yes."
I've supported the sacking of an otherwise outstanding teacher because he played mind-manipulation games with the students, mainly girls, and was called to the carpet about it on three separate occasions, in one case telling the 14 year old daughter of a friend of mine that her parents didn't really understand her but he did and wrote her love letters and a ring and promising to leave his wife for her....pardon me while I retch. If he had played those types of games with a daughter of mine I'd be peeing on his grave right now.
I've never belonged to the AEA or NEA and generally have avoided teacher's unions like the plague. They are purely self-serving political institutions that have done little if anything to improve the public image of the profession.
I'm not a saint....as my wife would be happy to point out. Never claimed to be such. You and I have probably wallowed in some of the same decadent mud puddles of life. But I take my job seriously and I don't feel like I deserve the derision of some of the ill-informed posters on these boards.
You're a pretty intelligent guy. You can't possibly believe that tripe about teachers being unable to perform in any "real" profession, or that all those with genuine talent go into other lines of work.
I'm sure many believe that the most talented bypass the teaching profession to earn real money. There's no question about that. Yet, it is also true that the teaching profession probably has ALL those who are TRULY concerned about the education and welfare of our children. For the rest, the money just isn't enough.
Thereby hangs a quandary for the detractors of America's educational system. They don't want to pay teachers more money because they feel that they do not deserve it and yet, at the same time, are wracking their brains trying to find a way to attract more of our top achievers into the profession.....but there isn't ANY way to do that without increasing the PAY.
Take another look at the net pay from the last school in which I taught; $2,200 dollars a month....for a total of $26,400 a year.
Care to guess what the take home pay for a beginning teacher is? Would YOU guys work for THAT?
Many of you would not.
So there you have it...a Catch 22 situation. You cannot attract the best and brightest without a major influx of cash....and that's the LAST thing that some of you are willing to support.
Lasz, I regret that I touched a raw nerve in my previous post. You have made some very pertinent points. However, I will cast my gauntlet at the feet of anyone who disparages the top-quality people I have worked with in the teaching profession during my career.
Walk a mile in our moccasins, Kemosabe....
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Teaching is an honorable profession and grossly underpaid. It is definitely NOT something anyone could do. The best of teachers are artists.
I can agree with that
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Not on your life Magee! I needed that summer sabbatical to recapture my sanity! And believe you me that rascal shore runs fast!
Uhhhhhhh....shuckins go sit in the corner with HT.
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Lazs, I don't necessarily think you're thickheaded... At least not beyond reason or any more so than I am... You're actually one of the few guys on here I've noticed who can say, "Well, you've got a point there , but not here ." So I can respect your opinions on things.
At the same time, I think a big part of our disagreement here is simply geographic... I don't know what schools and teachers are like where you come from, or where you've been, but they might as well be on Mars from what I've heard, because your arguments are not making sense to me from where I've come from and where I've been.
Up here in CT, teaching is not an easy profession to get into. I'd know - I'm trying to become one, and I go to what is arguably the "teachers college" in CT.
Up here, I'm looking at a program where, even if I took more classes than necessary, I still wouldn't be able to graduate with a BS in less than FIVE years, where just about every other major offered at my college can be accomplished four, or even three in some cases.
I don't know the exact attrition rate in my program, but I do know it's at least more than 50%.
Then, if I do in fact make it through, and get a job up here, I'm required by law to obtain a Masters within a few years, too.
Of course, getting that job, at least in CT, is far, FAR from certain as the competition's so great. I do what I can to try and set myself apart from the crowd (Dean's List, work on the newspaper, maybe study abroad for a year down the road), but even then, I don't know if I'll even be able to land a job, because the competition is so, well, competitive.
I mean, when did you have your first teacher who had earned his/her doctorate? I was in 3rd grade. And this was a public school.
Not to say CT doesn't have its share of poor teachers and schools... Of course it does. But they do seem to be fewer and further between than in some other states I've spent time in.
I'm getting to be rambling here, but my point is, at least in CT, if you're bright and hard-working enough to land a job as a teacher, you're bright and hard-working enough to land a job elsewhere that pays twice as much.
But I don't know how it is where you're from.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Teaching is an honorable profession and grossly underpaid. It is definitely NOT something anyone could do. The best of teachers are artists.
Well here's an idea that might get the deserving ones more money. Privatize schools, the good teachers will be in demand and likely paid more. Vouchers will work to this end. I know that definitely does not fit in with the die hard socialist agenda but when enough of us demand it our leaders must listen.
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Teachers are not the problem in Texas. The system is. Once the schools prioritized getting state funding over teaching, everything went into the poop chute.
In Texas, schools get thier state funding based on how many students they pass. has nothing to do with teaching, I know for a fact there are teachers who have constant pressure on them to pass every student, no matter what it takes.
Yes, I also know teachers who have had thier grade books revised by committiee in order to pass students.
Vouchers will not help solve that problem. It is a state wide issue here. As a matter of fact, vouchers will make the problem worse. Now you put the schools in competition with each other for students, so the schools do more to ensure all thier students get higher grades.
Why? Because higher grades means better chances at college scholarships, better possibilities in gettgin into better (perceived) colleges and so on.
Vouchers will not solve the problems with the Texas education system. It is a highly corrupt system, driven by greed. There is no way in hell, a really good teacher would ever move to Texas to teach.
Most parents are clueless about the state of the school system, and they like it like that. As long as they can slap that "My brat is an honor student at ....." bumper sticker on thier mini-van, they are content. Nevermind the reality of the situation.
Teachers, in Texas, are only now becoming a problem and only because the school systems run off the good ones in favor of those who could care less about the education level of the student.
You see, the good teachers actually go public, from time to time, and reveal the ugliness of our schools. But there are many times those stories never reach the public. Why? Because the news people are also parents and they simply do not want to believe it is true. After all, it would tarnish thier bumper sticker.
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Skuzz was she was a Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP94PlEtsEQ
:aok
Mac
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Skuzzy, I agree that public schools are under undue pressure to live up to "standards" that undercut their true purpose. That is why I support vouchers that would allow parents, especially those of lower socio-economic status, to send their children to schools of their choice, including private schools if that is what they believe will most benefit their child.
Healthy competition is just one of the things that would mitigate some of the problems with education in this country.
There also needs to be a major house cleaning at the elementary level...if not of personnel then of ideas. Some of the new-age educational fads need to be dumped forthwith. The abandonment of the phonetics system in favor of the whole word approach has done incalculable harm, as has the abandonment of rote memorization, specifically of multiplication and division tables.
The most common educational problem among the juvenile delinquents that I deal with is a lack of knowledge of basic multiplication facts. Quite a few have been taught how to solve multiplication problems by counting on their fingers (I kid you not.). This works fine unless the kid miscounts, which they often do.
I teach special education students. As a result of the above I often have the absolutely insane situation of a student who is able to comprehend the basics of Algebra I, such as order of operations in solving linear equations, and yet has to solve the multiplication part of such equations by counting on his fingers.
If I had any hair left I would be pulling it out.
Regards, Shuckins
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Giving the parents the choice of where to send thier kids is not going to solve any problems, at least here in Texas.
I promise you, the day you give parents the right to chose where thier kids can go to school, is the day you will see the school systems put on a whole new outward face, berift of any substance, in order to lure the kids into the school by impressing the parents.
There are parents (and unfortunately, a very high majority) who would gladly send thier kid to the school where they will get the best grades. This has no bearing on what the kids are actually learning.
Here is an example. I had a neighbor who live across the street from me, and as often happens, you end up asking why move here? Well, he was clear about that. "Grapevine schools are some of the highest rated schools in the D/FW area".
It did not take his kid long to figure out he did not need to do any homework, never bring home any books. The school grades on the "curve". If a student is still having problems, they can do "extra credit" work to shore up thier grades. The "extra credit" work is superflous. It does not get 'graded'. Rather points are added to the students overall points for each "extra credit" assignment they turn in.
All he needed to do was "extra credit" work to pass with a 4.0 grade point average. A 4.0, sounds impressive, until you know how he got it, and also understand that Grapevine actually pads the grade point average by 1 point for all the students.
Yet, you can hear it from any number of parents here about how wonderful the schools are. Now tell me how vouchers are going to fix this? The kid across the street got accepted to a very high end college. He lasted 3 months before he was back home and 6 years later he is still living with his parents. He has not been able to hold a job down at all. He is completely illiterate.
This is not an uncommon scenario. Vouchers only work when the parents and the school systems actually care about the quality of the education. Unfortunately, most parents do not care. Most want the schools to be the parent so the parents can be buddies with the kids.
Most schools do not care either, unless there is a dollar in it for them. And if they want to win students over from parents with vouchers, then they can hire a good advertising agnecy to do a marketing plan for them,
It really is a pathetic mess. If you want you children well educated, do not move to Texas.
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let's get something straight.. you are not getting 2,200 a month... you are getting closer to 3,000 a month for nine months work... really, less than nine months because you get more time off during that time than any other profession.
You can also work during the summer... yes...work.. that would mean... you get paid from two jobs...
If you had a real job and were laid off during the summer you would get about 11-1200 a month on unemployment after a waiting period... you would lose the unemployment if you got a job. You would also have no idea if you could work again come spring. sooooo...
cry me a river.
the thing that gets me is that teachers think that they are the only people doing something noble. that all other jobs don't count in the sainthood race... It is fair game to make fun of a construction worker but not a teacher? How did your house get built and.... who hires all the kids you failed to teach?
I never here teachers asking for better academic standards... they ask for more money..
If they were so noble you would here em protesting the socialist practices in schools like passing everyone and such.. but nooo... they only have a voice when it comes to asking for more money or respect.
I respect the illegal doing the lawns more.. he works harder and competes more. He doesn't ask that we instill sainthood upon him.
Teachers are overpaid and spoiled. they are not the only good people in the work force..
I commend you shuckins for pulling your kids out of the public school system. It would be nice if all of us could have vouchers and get some real competition going.... year round schools with real standards.. trade schools for those who fit there better. Why send a kid with a low IQ but great mechanical skills to college? That is what the democrats and the school system wants...
everyone goes to school no matter if it does em any good or not. Some people just aren't made for it.. you guys need to learn that. Having them in the system just drags the whole thing down and.. when there are no options save the public school system.... we get what we have now.
lazs
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Lazs, why are you going off about teachers thinking they're the only ones doing a noble job?
Who said that?
Overpaid and overspoiled? Are you kidding me?
California's schools must be awful. I'm sorry for you.
I agree with you on these thoughts though:
"I commend you shuckins for pulling your kids out of the public school system. It would be nice if all of us could have vouchers and get some real competition going.... year round schools with real standards.. trade schools for those who fit there better. Why send a kid with a low IQ but great mechanical skills to college? That is what the democrats and the school system wants...
everyone goes to school no matter if it does em any good or not. Some people just aren't made for it.. you guys need to learn that. Having them in the system just drags the whole thing down and.. when there are no options save the public school system.... we get what we have now."
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But... Before you go slamming teachers and school systems nationwide... We have trade and tech schools up here where the kids will still get a regular high school diploma while learning their trade. They don't have to go to college afterwards, but having that high school diploma sure will help if they find they'd like to.
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There are a LOT of private schools in Texas and from what I hear and read their standards and results are far superior to the public schools in Texas. Will vouchers corrupt their current standards? Some perhaps but for most I think not. In that I disagree with you Skuzzy.
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Well Texas public education is a joke. At the high-smart end you can sometimes find some good programs, but it is rare. At the low-not-so-smart end, kids are going to school to learn how to take the TAAS test.
I grew up in Texas. I went to public schools mostly, but private schools weren't much better in my experiance.
Not sure how to fix it, but it seems like a people and policy problem. Most smart people don't stay in teaching long in Texas, unless they have a real heart for it. I've known quite few people who gradurated in Texas, tried teaching for a few years and moved to other work. They left teaching due to bad policies, bad administration, and bad pay.
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The only way to straighten out the school system in Texas is by attacking the actual problems. Vouchers do not fix any problems. They just allow parents and school administrations to change the implementation of the current problems.
1) The state gives money to schools based on how many they pass.
. To this end, schools use grading on the curve.
. They allow students to do 'extra credit' to bolster sagging grades.
. The teachers grade book is allowed to be arbitrarily changed by committee. If the teacher does not agree, they can be suspended.
. Students are not only taught the TAAS test, they even given copies with answers on it to take home and memorize. Even the state turns a blind eye to this as these scores are something they want to brag about to the nation. "See, our education system works!".
. To further promote this, there are a significant number of parents who will not sit still while thier child has lower than average grades. So they pressure the teachers and administration to find a way to bolster thier child's grades.
. Schools take an entire class and apply a bonus based on the average of all the students. The lower the average, the higher the bonus.
. Schools arbitrarily apply a grade point increase across the line for all students of the school.
All the above stem from one thing. The real problem is all the above processes have gotten so entrenched in the school systems, it is going to take years to undo it. But until it is undone, the school systems in Texas will continue to get worse. They will continue to produce ignorant and illiterate kids.
In view of what is happening, vouchers will simply make things worse. Now, not only would the school be vying for the states money, they would then create new processes to vie for the parents money.
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They do the same here. The state get's money on how many kids it passes.. kids leave high school with about what was an eighth grade education of 40 years ago.
We have trade schools here too but they are not supported by tax money like the junior college is. this is very unfair in my opinion. they should get the same chunk community college gets. worse.. are those community college teachers incapable of trade school teaching? they used to do it...
community can't compete with trade schools any more than public school can compete with private.
We don't need to teach non english speakers and we don't need to teach illegals if we are going to be paying for it with taxes.
We need 12 month schools... if teachers taught 12 months a year 8 hours a day then they would get paid a lot more and... we would be getting our moneys worth..
As it is.. they are getting full time pay for part time work... that is why they are so defensive about it.
lazs
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Most states require a master’s degree to teach. I don’t think there is a teacher at my school who has less than five years of education; most have well over six, I have over 10. Teachers are required to continue their education regularly. For the most part, teachers pay for their own education and take classes on their own time. I know many professionals who are trained and take classes on their company’s expense. My best friend works for the FAA; they pay for his airfare, pay for his classes, pay for his hotel room and rental car. This is done on a normal workday, for which he is paid. This is how things are often done in much of the business world.
Teachers are contracted to work about 80% as many days as a typical worker in the US. I know a full time postman who earns twice what a starting teacher at my school earns. He has a high school diploma. I know a full time school bus driver who earns considerably more than the postman. Even the part time bus drivers earn way more than I do. I’d love to earn 80% of what other professions pay (that require six or more years of education). Heck, I’d love to earn I’d love to earn 80% of what the dang bus driver earns.
Even if we overlook the fact that teachers must spend extra hours on weekdays, weekends and throughout the summer preparing lessons, grading, completing BS required paperwork, attending meetings, conferences, training, extra curricular activities, etc., teachers do not earn 80% of what other occupations that have similar educational requirements; not even close.
Something is wrong here. While I was putting myself through college, postmen and bus drivers were earning a good salary and building up years towards retirement. While I’m paying off my student loans on my low salary, they are investing their extra money.
At my school, we have two teachers who are single; their lifestyles are humble and meager. With the exception of myself, the other teachers are all the second incomes in their families. I am the only teacher at my school who is raising a family on a teacher’s income. My salary qualifies my family for a variety of financial aid.
Ten plus years of college… something is wrong here.
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again... education does not entitle you to earnings... a guy with 10 years of liberal arts schooling is worth whatever someone is willing to pay...
performance is how you should get paid and...for whatever reason.. your performance is going down while your wages are going up.
I know of no public school teacher who works 80% of the same time as a full time worker... when the school is empty the janitor is there... it is what? groundhog day? no teachers cars in the lot.... How many days to the rest of you guys get off for xmas?
How many holidays do the rest of you real full time workers get a year? How many would you get if you only worked nine months a year?
How many of you have 10 years of more in your profession before you really got good at it? Is experiance worth less than education? is learning by doing better or worse?
I have no degree and I bet I could teach a number of classes better than half the teachers doing it...
As for trade schools.. if we are paying for public schools then there should be a trade school option for high school... they would take basic math (or specialized math) and other courses that pertained to the trade... a welder would take math... etc. I bet you could find plenty of trades people willing to teach a trade for the full time salary and part time work and bennies of a teacher.
lazs
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Vouchers are about competition and motivation. The large majority of our public schools have no or little competition. Competition is healthy and will cut away the decay in our current educational system.
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Lazs,
Most US workers work 240 days a year, teachers are paid to work 190+.
You might be able to find some teachers who work closer to 180 days, but most that I know work 190+. I work over 190.
Teachers are not required to have random college coursework; they must complete a specific program of classes. Many other professions work this way, the stuff that you learn in college prepares you for your job… You wouldn’t understand.
I don’t think you could cut it as a teacher. You think that you know so much? You talk and write so much about education and what is wrong; why don’t you become a teacher and show us all how it is done? You couldn’t hack it. You probably wouldn’t get hired and if you did you probably would get fired.
You don’t have a college degree, and you don’t value college education… interesting.
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Originally posted by lukster
Vouchers are about competition and motivation. The large majority of our public schools have no or little competition. Competition is healthy and will cut away the decay in our current educational system.
Oh, and the form of competition is who can put together the best marketing plan to lure parents to the school and keep the students there.
Tell me, where in that would the quality of education actually improve? There is no yardstick to measure the quality of education in a school. So how are you to know what school actually has a good education program?
Or do you just keep bouncing your kids from one school to another until you find one? Oh yeah, that is good for thier social development skills.
As long as you make it all about money, the education system has no reason to improve the quality of education. Quite the opposite.
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Skuzzy there are plenty of very good private schools. While the teachers at these private schools may not be in it solely for the money the schools are. Contrary to what many complaining public school teachers would have you believe, success can be easily and accurately measured and many of these private schools are very successful.
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Lukster, I never said all schools were bad. What I said and claim is the current situation with many public schools will not be corrected by the use of vouchers.
Why? Because the lion share of parents are content to look at only the grades. And having vouchers does not get your kids accepted to just any private school.
Just FYI. Grapevine High School is a very highly rate high school. Yet it is one of worst educational schools I have ever witnessed. 17 high school football coaches pretty much tell you where thier priorities are.
Care to enlighten me as to how you are going to go about rating schools? You cannot depend on any tests, as those are easily circumvented by the administration of the schools. So, how do you know what schools are best? How would you find the best schools for your kids?
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For me it's academic, my kids are all grown with one still in college. I'm not suggesting the elimination of public schools. Parents who take their children's education seriously will do the research to find the best school for their child. For those that don't care or are unable to discern between schools there's the public school system. The ones who will benefit from vouchers the most are those who are stuck in a district like Wilmer Hutchens.
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eskimo... What do I say about teachers that is wrong? They are part time workers getting a full time salary. Work from eight to five with two fifteen minute breaks and an hour lunch... go home and forget the classroom... if you need more time then stay late and get overtime.
I am confused tho.. first you tell me to get a job as a teacher and then you tell me that I can't because I don't have a degree and would probly get fired in any case.
I don't have a degree. I have a lot of specialized training and education...probly enough units to more than scrape up an AA if I filled out some of the worthless units like PE or something... but who cares?
And... I probly would get fired.. even tho that is allmost impossible in kalifornia schools for acredited teachers... only 1 in 900 is ever fired... saint indeed!
I would have more respect for teachers if more of em did get fired. If they got fired for doing the right thing and teaching the kids. I would throw kids out that disrupted the class and flunk those who wouldn't pass the class... so yeah... I probly would get fired. big deal... been out of work before. gone in complete different career directions before. no big deal unless your a wimp who never left the womb of academics.
I am not saying that about you.. I know that you moved to a private school.
which brings me to skuzzy... I think with vouchers.. the allready good private schools would get even better and the competition would make the public schools perform.
can't believe you public school teachers don't agree with me that there are kids who shouldn't be in school.
lazs
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Actually, I do agree with you Lasz. Arkansas' State Legislature got a wild hair up its' you-know-what several years ago and raised the age at which a kid could quit school from 16 to 18.
I have always felt that this was a move that was counterproductive. There are some kids that are not cut out for academics and would be better off if they were allowed to quit and go into the workforce....or failing that, be allowed to enroll in a technical training school of some type. This type of kid, if forced to stay in the public school, often just goes through the motions or causes problems in the classroom..
That is a viewpoint that is held by a surprising number of teachers....they firmly believe that such kids should be released from school if they so desire it. It's the ivory tower idiots who head the State Department of Education that push this moronic claptrap off on those of us actually manning the classrooms.
In regards to the statement you made that you would throw the kids out of class who were causing disruptions, I must say I couldn't agree with that sentiment more. The fly-in-the-ointment with this issue is that each public school gets X number of dollars for each child enrolled in its' system, so the superintendent, principals, and school boards are loathe to actually expel one of the little darlings for any infraction short of threatening another human being with death or dismemberment. If they're also an ath-uh-lete it is doubly hard to get rid of one of them.
Private schools aren't saddled with a lot of this type of baggage. Catholic schools in particular have an enviable reputation for turning out excellent graduates. Vouchers are the only hope many poor parents have of pulling their children out of positively horrendous inner-city schools and placing them in a decent academic setting.
Another problem with public schools is the movement to place children in gargantuan school systems. Many of the drug and security problems that plague public schools are exacerbate by the fact that the campus itself is like a small city. Ideally, at least in my opinion, schools should have no more than two or three hundred students on the campus. It's a lot easier to educate and guarante the safety of students when there aren't 2000 of them wandering the halls during school break.
Before I get totally away from the subject, let me say that many school district boards and superintendents need to develop the type of backbone it takes to stand up to arrogant and pushy parents. Many of the discipline problems at school originate from spoiled brats whose parents continually run interference for them, regardless of what the little monsters have done. Make no mistake about it, many parents refuse to believe that their darlings are capable of doing the types of things that they do at school.
Trust me on this, many of you that are parents might not recognize your children if you could install a hidden surveillance camera in their classrooms and watch their behavior. It's as if aliens abduct your child on the way to school and substitute an evil doppelganger.
This is especially true of junior-high kids. I'd rather try to teach 100 adults in a single classroom than 20 kids of that age. There are a lot of days when these developing human beings are incapable of rational thought.
As for getting fifteen minute breaks, I only got one, in the middle of the morning. My lunch breaks lasted 25 minutes, from bell to bell. If you didn't eat fast you just didn't eat.
Are there problems in the public schools? Sure. Do they still manage to provide an education for our children? Absolutely...all you have to do is reach out and grab it. Teachers merely light the path to knowledge. It's up to the students to walk it.
Regards, Shuckins