Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Neil Stirling on January 17, 2007, 10:25:18 AM
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Some new information http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ and a USN KI. HIEN evaluation.
Neil.
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Neil:
That's a great site you guys have put together in terms of collection of reports! Thanks so much for sharing!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Well, according to this link from that page (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Tony-I.pdf) the Ki61 should have the same turning radius as the FM2, but according to the gonzo's page the Ki61 in AH has a much larger turn radius, and twice as wide with full flaps.
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Krusty, I find many test results to be contradicting.
This is most evident with tests that are only comperative or give the test pilot's impressions and not hard numbers. Turning ability is one such common disagreement, but also simple things like trimming. One test says that the P47B was very easy to trim for "hands off" flight. The other (still P47B) notes the trimming as very difficult and explicitly states that "hands off" trimming is impossible.
A whole lot depended on the exact details: the condition of the plane, the fuel load, minor model modifications, enviroment etc... So, unless the difference is decisive, they get different results.
Most excelent website btw. Very interesting reading :aok
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P47D was officially cleared for 70" MAN as early as June 44 (though it was used in the field prior to that).
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/24june44-progress-report.pdf
I'd love to see that on the D40. That way it would be distinguished from the D25 and spread out the Jug series a little better. Of course what I would really like is a 70" boosted Razorback with a paddle blade prop for a real 56th FG jug :D
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I've wanted my 150 grade fuel Pony :). 75" Hg (444 mph woohoo!) vs. a 67" Hg. (130 grade - 427 mph). 1860 HP vs. 1690 HP. That's what I'm talking about.
That would give me something to fight the 109K4 toe-to-toe with :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Some new Hellcat trial data added.
Neil.
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Originally posted by bozon
Krusty, I find many test results to be contradicting.
This is most evident with tests that are only comperative or give the test pilot's impressions and not hard numbers. Turning ability is one such common disagreement, but also simple things like trimming. One test says that the P47B was very easy to trim for "hands off" flight. The other (still P47B) notes the trimming as very difficult and explicitly states that "hands off" trimming is impossible.
A whole lot depended on the exact details: the condition of the plane, the fuel load, minor model modifications, enviroment etc... So, unless the difference is decisive, they get different results.
Most excelent website btw. Very interesting reading :aok
You're quite right, now that I think about it. :aok
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Didn't Nemeth help out on the Spit 8 trial with the 50% fuel combat test? I recall someone coming into my arena asking if anyone would volunteer to test the spit 8 with them. Nemeth accepted, I'm not sure if this is the same one.
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Originally posted by Denholm
Didn't Nemeth help out on the Spit 8 trial with the 50% fuel combat test? I recall someone coming into my arena asking if anyone would volunteer to test the spit 8 with them. Nemeth accepted, I'm not sure if this is the same one.
Not unless Nemeth is a pilot and flew WWII AC. :D
Bronk
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The Tony vs USN aircraft was very interesting. And it's not just one pilot who did the testing, there were 6 pilots involved.
Maybe Pyro should re-evaluate our Tony's turn performance.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Tony-I.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Tony-I.pdf)
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Gents, I think we get a bit confused as to how the Military tested these fighters. Flaps were not used as it skewed the baseline.
For those planes in the test that we also have in the game, turn radius without flaps ranks as follows:
FM-2
Ki-61
F6F-5
F4U-1D
F4U-4 (virtual tie with -1D)
I agree that the Ki-61 should probably turn a bit better, but not much. Where the Ki-61 falls on its face is maneuvering with flaps. Its flaps are not very effective at reducing turn radius and combined with the added drag, the Ki-61 tends to wallow badly.
My regards,
Widewing
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Here's some other interesting data gleaned from this test. We know that the Ki-61 could manage about 270 knots at sea level, thus we can determine all other measured speeds in this test.
Ki-61
SL: 270 knots/ 311 mph (actual in game speed: 312 mph w/WEP)
20k: 289 knots / 333 mph (actual in game speed: 373 mph w/WEP)
FM-2
SL: 264 knots / 304 mph (actual in game speed: 302 mph w/WEP)
20k: 274 knots / 315 mph (actual in game speed: 318 mph w/WEP)
F6F-5
SL: 296 knots / 341 mph (actual in game speed: 331 mph w/WEP)
20k: 345 knots / 397 mph (actual in game speed: 385 mph w/WEP)
F4U-1D
SL: 302 knots / 348 mph (actual in game speed: 358 mph w/WEP)
20k: 353 knots / 406 mph (actual in game speed: 409 mph w/WEP)
F4U-4
SL: 315 knots / 363 mph (actual in game speed: 376 mph w/WEP)
20k: 377 knots / 434 mph (actual in game speed: 440 mph w/WEP)
F8F-1
SL: 330 knots / 380 mph (not in game)
F7F-3
SL: 324 knots / 373 mph (not in game)
Interesting.... This is the second Navy test I've seen that shows a real F6F-5 being substantially faster than the AH-2 version. The AH2 Ki-61 is much faster at 20,000 feet than the Ki-61-I tested by the Navy.
My regards,
Widewing
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I think our Hien fighter was the later version (~1944) with Ho-5 cannon.
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Also they mentioned they had to really struggle to get it working (hydraulics, I think it mentioned?) so they might have found a damaged one, or abandoned because it wasn't servicable, which might mean reduced power output. Ya never know.
There's been lots of comment on these boards about the F6F speedometer being inaccurate. Perhaps the Navy relied on it too much in their tests? (I'm not sure, but it would explain the higher numbers)
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Neil,
You are amazing man. Did you break into the National arcives or something??
I just got back from a week long business thing (slow death) and I just found your new reports.
What needs to be looked at is this report along with your new F4U and F6F reports listed in there indidual sections. You have posted at least 6 reports I have never seen before. It will be weeks before I can digest all of this information. One of the F6F reports shows test of up to 65" MAP.
BTW, I have too ask, there is mention of a comparitive test between F4U and F6F in your F6F-3 test report index conducted at Patuxant. Needless to say I know you post these reports in full and hold nothing back.
Something else that should be noted are the relative stall speeds of these aircraft as well as climb ability. The Speed of the F6F seems to echo the Vought report pretty closely. I think the Navy new what the true top speed of the F6F was. The airspeed indicator error was discovered before the production of the F6F-5.
The climb speeds of all aircraft are at Mil power according to the climb comparison chart. Notice the F4U-1 climbing in excess of 3,000FPM at 10K at mil power much higher than AH2. I am not altogether sure the speeds were not mesured at Mil as well because all aircraft tested seem a little slow.
Hats off Neil, You da man
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Hi F4UDOA, bozon and dtango, thanks :aok I have to say that all of the new American information came from Mike Williams. He has done a splendid job of uncovering new information over on your side :) and its thanks to him for providing the web site.
I don't know about the F4U F6F comparison, but trust me if its there Mike will find it.
F4UDOA I can't get the performance calculator on your site to download can you help?
Neil.
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Originally posted by dtango
I've wanted my 150 grade fuel Pony :). 75" Hg (444 mph woohoo!) vs. a 67" Hg. (130 grade - 427 mph). 1860 HP vs. 1690 HP. That's what I'm talking about.
That would give me something to fight the 109K4 toe-to-toe with :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Hopefully that would be you going toe to toe with the 1.98ata 2,000hp 109K4 and not the 1.8ata model we have now...
EagleDNY
$.02
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Neil,
I sent you a message.
I will forward you an email ASAP.
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
Hopefully that would be you going toe to toe with the 1.98ata 2,000hp 109K4 and not the 1.8ata model we have now...
EagleDNY
$.02
Just wanted to double check but I think the K4 version we have in AH2 is the 2000hp 1.98ata monster clocking in at a 451-456 mph top speed. :)
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=194384&referrerid=3699
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs