Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Simaril on January 17, 2007, 07:04:07 PM
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I seem to be making a tactical error consistently, and I'm not quite sure what to do to change it. (With my new determination to film the good stuff, I expected to have a film to post to show this -- but for some reason I just havent run into it lately, so I'll describe it as best I can.)
Many times when co-E merging, I'll enter the "standard" Immel and be pleased to see my enemy start swoop down underneath me. When I see him below through my canopy top, I figure I should have it in the bag....but it doesnt always work that way.
I think this is where I mess up. I have tended to stay high, not completing the loop and not committing to a second Immel (alone, since the other guy is way below). I have tended to relax the curve, waiting for him to blow out his E and expecting to drop on him when he cant quite reach my alt. Unfortunately, the less educated enemy doesnt always know that he should have already lost the fight, and sometimes he gets a good shot by zooming straight up at me.
I think I should be doing one of two things:
Idea 1: Keep working the angles hard, even if that costs potential energy. I'm thinking I should continue the hard loop. coming down from the top in a tighter curve than the faster lower enemy can manage, When he comes back up, he should be in front of me and I should at least get a snap shot, if not a tracking 6 shot by pulling up behind him. (If I have the energy, that is.) From the side, my track would look like 3/4 of a loop, then there would be a 180 degree airelon roll to level and either the track shot or snap shot as the opponent heads vertical in front of me.
Idea 2: GO ahead and do the second textbook Immel, giving me a larger separation and potential energy store. This way I have the flexibility to respond to his "non textbook" maneuvering, whatever he may do, since I will be far above him, and the directional reversal will make my flight path far enough from his to deny the zoom shot. I'm thinking this would work almost like a rope, when he reaches the top of his maneuver and finds he can't get the angle for the shot.
What do the aces think?
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I often use a combat turn instead of a second Immelmann, because a combat turn is harder for a floundering sky-gazer to track than a straight maneuver. If you've got enough energy, a spiral climb is best. That's my two bits.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Many times when co-E merging, I'll enter the "standard" Immel and be pleased to see my enemy start swoop down underneath me. When I see him below through my canopy top, I figure I should have it in the bag.
So, you merge co-E more or less head on, you immelman over (a 1/2 loop) and are now level and have reversed 180deg in direction, right? This is a fairly high-G immel?? eg were you going for the lead-turn and/or angles fight? Or a more lazy immel, with lower Gs going for the more conservative energy style opener?
Meanwhile your opponent has effectively blown through?? Im not sure what you mean by "my enemy start swoop down underneath me." I take from this your opponent didnt immel at all, and has blown through not wanting to play the classic opening move. Is this right?
Originally posted by Simaril
I think this is where I mess up. I have tended to stay high, not completing the loop and not committing to a second Immel (alone, since the other guy is way below). I have tended to relax the curve, waiting for him to blow out his E and expecting to drop on him when he cant quite reach my alt.
But now you say you dont complete the loop? do you mean you dont complete the first immelman (eg it becomes a a simple climb or some kind of pitch-back)?? Or do you mean you dont start the follow-on 2nd immel??
I'm just not sure what your situation is.
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Your 'Idea #2' is what I do in that situation almost every time. The second immel doesn't always put you in the best offensive position against such a foe, but it puts you in a good defensive position. It affords you time to re-evaluate, maybe to watch him a little longer and figure out if he's a newb, or doesn't want to engage, or is baiting you lower. Also, if he really is intent on the zoom climb for that one shot, the second immel will foil that completely, leaving him as an easy target.
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The problem with an Immelmann, when there's a good chance that your enemy will be able to point his nose at you, is that it's a two dimensional maneuver. It's very easy to track. If he might be able to point his nose at you, it's probably better to move in all three dimensions.
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A great example is Creton who traditionally fly's some variation of a chandelle opener (my understanding is nomak is similiar). most good pilots have a variety of "openers". A number of variables come into play here. What is the plane match up, what is the relative E state etc....
As a general rule "higher is better" once you commit to an "E" opener. However, you need to have a plane "B" just in case. Mine is pretty simple....I convert to a climbing spiral which then levels into a flat 1/2 circle or so and then to a vertical "loop" that realistically is a chandelle I just fall out of....the key is creating a tough shot. The spiral climb forces him to commit his nose (vs a straight zoom) and the flat turn widens this...the final vertical is really a combination defensive move/reverse. Unless the con just totally snookered me I'll roll over on him....i
The reality is that a guy with alot of E in a good "zoomer" can just flat out suprise you. when I see those "funny" merges I know it'll break one of two ways....really really inexperienced or ace of aces:)
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i know exactly what you mean sim, when you are floating upon a high reversal turn and are thinking 'yep hes gunna fly right through my guns'.
then you realise too late that he has tightened his turn enough to come back up guns on.
first of all we need to make sure we lose enough speed and keep our turn tight enough not to become the target.
when you do realise that you have misjudged the relative speeds of you and your enemy, the best option is to roll out 90* and give as slim a profile for the shot as possible and, if you survive, continue the roll back to level flight beneath your opponent.
if you play your cards right from then on it is a battle of slowing down in the rolling style 'my-shot-your-shot-my-shot-your-shot' high and low passes.
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As someone else said it's difficult to have the "correct" answer because it's not perfectly clear what your opponent is doing and there is a big difference depending on what he's flying. For the sake of argument lets assume you're co-e with similar airplanes.
If, by your description, you mean that he entered a more level turn vice the vertical opening there are two potential situations. 1) the guy doesn't understand the vertical move and is a grape ready for picking OR 2) the guy is maintaining his e with only a slight nose high turn waiting for you to dive in for the munchies.
To determine if the guys' a grape look at how quickly his nose is tracking across the ground. By this I mean look to see if he's got a lot of turn rate, if so he's generating a lot of useless angles and he's really just burning his e and won't be able to do any significant zoom. In this case simply convert to his six for an easy snack.
So, lets say you look at your opponent and instead of generating a lot of angles he's staying fast and only has a moderate turn rate. This tells you he probably knows what's what. Another variation of this is he initially does a nose-high oblique turn after the merge and then does a wingover to put himself underneath you. The oblique lets him slow a little and reduce his turn radius and increase his turn rate so he can point to a position underneath you. Completing the wingover means he can now re-accelerate in preparation for his zoom into you.
In either case you've got to quickly decide whether to go up or down. If you go down he's watching for you to commit and bury your nose and come screaming straight down thinking you'll just blow him away or work the B&Z on him. He has two options at this time depending on your relative positions.
If you're in front of his wingline he'll probably pull up directly into you for a vertical merge. In this situation you're buried nose low and he's counting on you being fast. After the merge he'll be decelerating and you'll be yanking on the stick trying to get your nose moving uphill. A quick pivot and rudder reversal on his part will get him turned around but he probably won't follow you with pure pursuit, instead he'll use lead pursuit to cut across your turn circle and pick you off as you come up in front of him.
So, what happens if you're behind his wingline? He'll still count on your being too fast to square the corner to get on his six so he'll go vertical in front of you but before you get in guns range. This will put him safely inside of your turn circle and, once you overshoot he'll pivot and rudder over. In this case he'll actually have a lot of angles on you and be close enough to go directly to pure pursuit as you either dive away or continue your pull into the vertical.
OK, how do you cope with this. First, you could play it safe and immediately do another immellman or, if you have insufficient e then do a spiral climb as Humble describes. By doing that, you're maintaining separation and possibly setting up the rope. The spiral also makes him maneuver on his zoom climb causing him to bleed. The downside to going up (oxymoron?) is that you're not keeping pressure on him, you're counting on him making a mistake and overall this may not work to your advantage as he gets more time to live and the possibility of a successful bug.
If you want to stay aggressive against this type of opponent then going nose-low is the way you want to fight but remember you have two or three tricks. The keys here are 1) don't bury your nose, and 2) control your speed. To do this don't just continue your loop and dive straight down, instead roll into a descending oblique turn towards his control zone. Remember that he's maintaining his e but it's going to cost him angles. Also, your spiral means he has to turn harder to stay under you for his vertical move which will help to bleed him a little. Using your slower speed means you have a smaller radius relative to his and can work towards his six. Also, by coming down on him in an oblique turn trick number 1 is built in, use g in the turn to control your acceleration. Your second trick is to slip the plane. Put in a lot of rudder opposite your turn and use aileron to control your bank angle to maintain the turn in the right direction. Trick number 3 only really works in the F4U but drop your gear or use dive brakes if you've got them. Remember as you do this you want to control, not eliminate your e. He's still fast so you'll need just the right amount of e to engage him in a close fight without letting him zoom well above you.
OK, you've got your descent under control, where do you go? You need to be converting on his high six. Now, this is what makes this fight difficult, it's the three bears and too hot, too cold and just right. It's hard to be more specific but you want to stay a bit above him (i.e., don't overshoot in the vertical) but not too high. Too high gives him separation and he can still generate a 90 degree pass with his e. By being in the correct position you should be able to take your choice when he goes vertical, either lag him so you can get a shot when he's above you or lead him and shoot him on the way up. The choice of which depends on the separation you have when he goes vertical. Lots of separation and you want to lead him, little separation then lag him. The point here is to make sure that you don't lag him enough that it gives him the overshoot he's looking for.
Mace
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If you begin a vertical lead turn at the merge in an essentially equal energy situation and you are above the bandit when initiating, all the bandit has to do is match your vertical lead turn and he will have rear quarter position.
Whether or not that rear quarter position that you have given the bandit will translate into a shot for the bandit is dependent upon several factors.
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Originally posted by Gumbeau
If you begin a vertical lead turn at the merge in an essentially equal energy situation and you are above the bandit when initiating, all the bandit has to do is match your vertical lead turn and he will have rear quarter position.
Whether or not that rear quarter position that you have given the bandit will translate into a shot for the bandit is dependent upon several factors.
If you're already above your opponent and you pull up for a "lead turn" you're not doing a lead turn you've just effectively turned your six to him. A lead turn is a turn into the opponent before the merge occurs and the goal is to gain angles before he begins to turn himself. The reason a bandit gains a rear quarter position in your scenario here is that you've just turned in front of him and put him behind your wingline.
Mace
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Meh, I just wing it. I make it up as I go along.
Here's a question that might clarify what you want to do, though:
You've already done an immelman. You're well above him. You even admit he's lost the fight. You're in the better position. Why are you doing another immelman? You're taking yourself further from your objective (the destruction of the enemy). Perhaps some other move after immel #1 that puts you back on the enemy would be more suitable.
Even you said it, immel#2 puts you in a great defensive position --- only you're on the offense, have the better position and more energy. Why are you pulling defensive manuvers?
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Whats an "immel"?
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It's the "I-don't-want-to-type-the-entire-damn-word" version of it. It's quite obvious what I meant, though.
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For a mediocre pilot's version of the 'solution'...
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Trust your own judgement.
You will realize that in most of the cases your own judgement is indeed correct. You do have enough E to outzoom him. However, what you do not have, is enough E to outzoom the guy, reverse at a safe vertical distance, and then bear guns on him on your way down. Usually that's when the mistakes start happening.
You are alarmed by the fact that the '600' number behind you never seems to progress to '800'. The guy still has his guns pointed at you. You start thinking that you messed up, and either decide to bugger out during the zoom, or somehow try to do "something, anything" that alters your zoom, heading, direction, etc etc..
Well, don't do that.
The part you have misjudged is that you might be able to rope him up and then reverse on him during the process, and nail him from above when he is stalling. However, the part you did NOT misjudge, is that initially you have had more E than him.
Give up your attempts to 'reverse' on him artificially, and let nature take its course. Instead of moving your plane around to point your plane nose-down during your zoom, just go straight upto 0mph.
Trust your judgement and trust the odds.
The chances of meeting someone who can snipe your zoom climb from 600 yards away while floating vertically at speeds under 100mph, is not too high. Just keep going vertical, make no attempts to reverse, and you can be sure that when your own plane reach the 0mph mark, the enemy plane has long since stalled. You may not have enough E to make the reversal during the roping maneuver and shoot him down, but you still have enough E to keep out of effective firing range during a zoom climb.
Hit the 0mph mark, let your plane nose down, and then you can either start all over again, or just call it quits and go home.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
If you're already above your opponent and you pull up for a "lead turn" you're not doing a lead turn you've just effectively turned your six to him. A lead turn is a turn into the opponent before the merge occurs and the goal is to gain angles before he begins to turn himself. The reason a bandit gains a rear quarter position in your scenario here is that you've just turned in front of him and put him behind your wingline.
Mace
You are confusing my use of the word 'above' with a reference to a horizontal position in space. Above, in my context, was referring to 'higher altitude'. Sorry for the confusion.
In a head on merge, lead turns can be vertical or horizontal or a combination of both (oblique).
Prior to the merge a vertical lead is a very effective tactic but it absolutely requires initiation at an altitude lower than the bandit. This vertical lead turn must be timed properly for success. Too early and the bandit can see and react. Too late and it will not be effective.
If you properly initiate (below the bandit and properly timed) a vertical lead turn the bandit is faced with a few choices. If he reacts with a vertical maneuver of his own you will have gained his rear quarter. If he reacts purely horizontal or nose low break, you will be directly above his turn circle and able to use follow-on BFM to match his turn circle for a shot. The bandit could do a level or slightly nose high extension, which would setup another merge if he chooses to re-engage. Lastly, the bandit could split S, giving you the option of pursuing or not.
Conversely, if you are planning a vertical lead turn at the merge and the bandit won't let you get lower, that instantly tells you the bandit is planning a vertical lead turn of his own and is denying you the lower altitude. You will have a decision to make. You can try to create horizontal seperation to deny him the vertical lead turn and create your own horizontal lead turn or you can pass close abeam and extend through the merge .
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Like everyone else, Im not quite sure what the enemy actually IS doing in your scenerio.
Judging from your Idea#1 though....This unfinished document (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/acm5.html), might lead you in the right direction. If you look at imlvflat.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/imlvflat.ahf) closely, neither widewing or I in either example actually peform an entire immelman. In both cases, we intended to do a pure immelman, but looking back at our enemy, we adjusted to their position.
Given equal planes, an immelman (adjusted immelman as noted above) can get inside an initial flat turn that transitions into the vert. It will be close to a HO merge, but the immel plane should have the angle (as shown in the first film example).
Given equal planes (immel vs chandell), a chandell should have a snap shot going into the 2nd merge, and will also 'win the merge' with the lower position. But if the immel plane did not chop thottle excessively on the first turn, and avoids the 2nd merge shot, it should have the E advantage at that point.
Given equal E, and planes with comparible excess thrust. You cannot expect to out vert them (after turning 90 degrees) beyond gun range after 1 merge unless they burn excessive E in their first turn. There are many situations where I personally can expect to out vert a co-E first merge with a lazy immelman, or extention at a 45 degree climb. But there are a lot of varibles that go into that. What is the plane match-up? Did the other plane pull a tigher immelman or chandell than they should have been able to do considering the merge speed (read chopped throttle)?
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I'll always double immel, half the time it ropes them, the other half you maintain commmand of the fight
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's the "I-don't-want-to-type-the-entire-damn-word" version of it. It's quite obvious what I meant, though.
Its a move some dude came up with, I found out. I wasnt sure.
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Sorry for the silence -- I had a sudden bout of something called "real life," that got in the way of the virtual one!
Appreciate all the feedback, and sorry for the lack of clarity in the setup.
In the situation I'm talking about, while I start the immelman the opponent is either heading straight (a la the HO, which misses as I immel) or noses down slightly as if to merge -- but continues with that slightly downward path straight forward. Once he sees that I've gone above him, he pulls back and tries to get nose on, 12 oclock on me again. His path is a much larger curve, but he often maintains enough E to zoom into shot range (much to my "I just died to a dweeb move" frustration).
As for plane matchups, I tend towards E-efficient planes just because my instincts are more at home with E concepts than with anticipating angles. Lately I've been flying F4Us almost exclusively. High wingloaded enemies dont pose me much trouble in this situation, simply because at these speeds energy retention puts me so far ahead situationally that even I can see what to do. So, the question I posed was looking at energy or E/TnB transitional type fighters, whether Ponies or Yaks or La's or F6Fs.
Bat: I think I do tend toward the energy conservation side in Immelmans, rather than working hard for angles.
Thanks for the advice and suggestions. I'll post more later, when real life cn move into the background where it belongs!
:lol
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Sim, when they do that, try minimizing the separation, and treat the next merge as a new merge. I usually end up turning my immelman into a 1/2 cuban (not nessacerily going back to starting alt unless they continue to extend at that alt) when I see them extend through the merge. What I am doing is trying to convert some alt back to speed to close up separation and make it difficult for them to reverse and still have time for proper merge setup.
If they extend into the vert, then it's a matter of judgment call on whether you can hang with them, or opt for a "safe zone" defence. If they simply loop over to reverse and merge, you now own the low position on the merge, and if the merge is going to take place toward the vertical plane, it may even be possible to sucker them into inverting into the merge.
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Oooooo.....I actually get that! Thanks, Murdr.
And Marine -- I don't think Krusty was being mean. He probably thought you knew what an Immelman was, and were just smarting off at him.
BTW, here's a great illustration of what the half cuban looks like. In this picture, which was on a RC aircraft site, they also show the RC controller position at each spot in the maneuver. The MODE 1 left hand circle shows where YOUR joystick should be at each step along the way.
(http://www.rcpilotguide.com/images/Reverse%20Half%20Cuban.jpg)
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That's a reverse 1/2 cuban. I was refering to this
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/3320-kuubalainen.jpg)
Which is basically what you described by saying "From the side, my track would look like 3/4 of a loop, then there would be a 180 degree airelon roll to level and either the track shot or snap shot as the opponent heads vertical in front of me."
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Lol. I almost posted that image -- which looks much better with the background -- but liked the stick information the RC site gave.
Murdr:
1. Is the first image "reverse" just because you exit lower than you enter, while the standard Half Cuban is the other way around? Or is there more to it than that?
2. And while we're at it, I've always been a little unclear about the Chandelle. Is that essentially a flat turn with a climbing component?
BTW -- Stick information might be a nice tweak to add to the instructional stuff at the Trainers' website. A lot of the newer guys I've helped out like getting concrete controller instructions, when first learning a move. Maybe somebody could make up a block of image icons with controller positions, and paste them onto the existing ACM images with a key like the RC site used. It would be VERY cool to have a PIP window doing that in the basic ACM films, but that would be tough to do I'd think.
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Well, it comes from a "cuban 8" which basically doing that last image I posted x2 back to back....would look like a sideways 8 slightly flattend out on the bottom.
The one you posted, the flight path diagram would look the same, but you're flying through it in the opposite direction (doing 3/4 underloop rather than a 3/4 loop) hence reverse. Much like a split-s could be considered the reverse of an immelman.
Gues you could consider the cuban 8 as the basline maneuver that is used to describe what a 1/2 cuban or reverse 1/2 cuban is.
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Originally posted by Simaril
2. And while we're at it, I've always been a little unclear about the Chandelle. Is that essentially a flat turn with a climbing component?
Did you see this film example? (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/yopitchdel.ahf)
Edit: Here is a screenshot showing how an opening immelman stacks up vs a chandelle for 2nd merge positioning.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/chanviml.GIF)
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Side note: Yes, I thought he did know what an immelman was. sorry.
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Originally posted by Simaril
BTW, here's a great illustration of what the half cuban looks like. In this picture, which was on a RC aircraft site, they also show the RC controller position at each spot in the maneuver. The MODE 1 left hand circle shows where YOUR joystick should be at each step along the way.
AS an ex RC flyer I should point out that Mode 1 is Aileron and throttle on right stick with Elevator and Rudder on the Left.
Mode 2 is classic joystick (I flew this RC) Aileron and Elevator on right stick Rudder and Throttle on the left.
The illustation starts at half throttle, pull up roll left and some top rudder, roll inverted with some down elevator then the half loop out ending on half throttle again. Right stick Mode 2 is the one to look at!
Cheers Blagard
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Originally posted by Blagard
AS an ex RC flyer I should point out that Mode 1 is Aileron and throttle on right stick with Elevator and Rudder on the Left.
Mode 2 is classic joystick (I flew this RC) Aileron and Elevator on right stick Rudder and Throttle on the left.
What kind of sick person would use mode one?
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
What kind of sick person would use mode one?
Ah, that would probably people who either had a basic two channel setup once, often with left/right movement on right stick and up/down movement on the left stick. There are also people who have never flown and didn't know any better or just preferred it!
Oddly Mode 1 has quite a following, but not as big as Mode 2.
When I was younger I must admit that I thought Mode 1 flyers couldn't be real aircraft enthusiasts - I know now different, but it does seem strange still!
Going onto the RC pattern manouvre was really a bit off topic. Forget the stick diagrams, the picture is fine on its own.
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Serves me right for roughing it in when I didnt really know the field. :lol
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Originally posted by Simaril
Serves me right for roughing it in when I didnt really know the field. :lol
Yep! been there done that! ;)
Heres the reverse cuban eight I filmed last year with a more interesting start and finish !
R-Cuban 8 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/hanger fun.ahf)
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you double immel in a pony?
I have found this pretty hard, seems to bleed energy rapidly at top of immel.
Could use some advice on this.