Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on January 17, 2007, 09:00:39 PM
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The jeep was runnin fine until a few days ago. I changed the oil like I allways do using a known brand two weeks ago (penzoil I think but usually I use castrol syntec blend). It got COld the last few days and the jeep ran fine this morning but when I started it up this afternoon it was puttering really badly. It sounded like the timing was way off. I drove it home tonite and while it drove "OK" it was puttering and really rough at Idle.
For grins I popped open the air cleaner and where the oil breather attaches to it there was smoke coming out out of it. There was also some oil on my air filter. The exahuast sounds real rough and puttering.
The only thing that's different is the oil change and the recent freezing temps. I hadn't noticed any pools of antifreeze but the back half of the engine looked like it might have been covered in liquid. I can't tell if that's new or not as I havn't had time to get underneath it. It was also runnin a few degrees hotter than usual.
Any Idears?
Cracked block
Missing cylnder
Timing
Senser
I'm don't even know where to start.
PS for those who aren't familure with my jeep sagas it is a farily new re-manufactrued 4.0 6 Cyl
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Plugged or stuck PCV valve?
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Something easy to check, take off the distributor cap and see if there is a white residue inside of it. If there is, your spark might be arcing causing the trouble.
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I have a 304 in my CJ7, and it died up North. I have to retrieve it on Saturday. I had smoke coming out of the breather. For me it is either, thrown rod, hole in a piston or a crankbearing.
for your YJ, I'm guessing a Crank Bearing or a hole in the piston.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I have a 304 in my CJ7, and it died up North. I have to retrieve it on Saturday. I had smoke coming out of the breather. For me it is either, thrown rod, hole in a piston or a crankbearing.
for your YJ, I'm guessing a Crank Bearing or a hole in the piston.
OUCH!
WTF would cause that?
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Originally posted by Donzo
Plugged or stuck PCV valve?
It doesn't have one.
It has a tube in the aft end of the valve cover that connects the vacume on the air intake manifold and a breather hose that runs to the air cleaner.
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Was the penzoil synthetic also?
Bronk
Edit: Valve seals or Rings . See if plugs are getting oil fouled.
Liquid could mean head gasket or cracked head.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Was the penzoil synthetic also?
Bronk
Edit: Valve seals or Rings . See if plugs are getting oil fouled.
Liquid could mean head gasket or cracked head.
Liquid as in OIL? I can't remember if I used synthetic right now. When I bought it they where out of castro in the 5 qt bottle so I bought the stuff formulated for SUVs and Trucks.
Refresh my memory the engine consists of
Head
Block
Crank
and the head gasket would be at the top of the motor?
Like I said it looked like the back end and the bell house was coved in liquid but I couldn't tell what it was, it's dark and I was in my blues so I didn't want to get dirty.
It also sounds like I got an exhaust leak.
GAWD I hope it's not a cracked block.....:confused:
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
It doesn't have one.
It has a tube in the aft end of the valve cover that connects the vacume on the air intake manifold and a breather hose that runs to the air cleaner.
If I am not mistaken that is your PCV. Might also want to check your fuel. Could be a clogged fuel filter or water in the fuel.
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Pull dipstick and see if oil is milky. If it is coolant is getting in.
That would be cracked head/blown head gasket.
Liquid in first post meant coolant.
Head gasket is in between the block and the head.
You said you had a recent cold snap. Did you have the proper coolant mix?
Bronk
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Originally posted by SmokinSS
If I am not mistaken that is your PCV. Might also want to check your fuel. Could be a clogged fuel filter or water in the fuel.
Yes you are right it is the PCV but it's just basically a tube....no valve or anything.
I thought of the water and added some HEAT tm to the tank today as I heard that stuff works wonders but I'll wait and see.
The crappy part is I HAVE to drive it to work tommorrow, no choice in the matter so if I break it, I break it.
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Just a blind guess, but it sounds like it could be a dirty fuel filter and a clogged PCV.
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Originally posted by rpm
Just a blind guess, but it sounds like it could be a dirty fuel filter and a clogged PCV.
Might be on to a cheap fix here, I don't remember the last time I changed the filter. ould the cold effect it somehow?
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Water trapped in filter would freeze causing blockage .
Or just dirty and cold is coincidental.
Bronk
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The cold would cause ice, filter traps the ice. The bottle of Heet you just dumped in the gas should disperse any remaining water, but I'd change the filter anyway. The engine running rough could cause it to spit out some oil in the blow by. Nothing to panic about, yet.
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Sounds like a cracked block to me... If your antifreeze was old, the cold temps could have frozen your coolant. When was the last time you checked the quality of your antifreeze and it's freezing point? If the answer is never, then whoever built your engine may have cheaped out on the antifreeze and used too high a percentage of water in the mix.
One way to check (but not a guaranteed indicator) is to check for water in the oil and oil in the radiator. If the oil comes out brownish and foamy, it's got water in it and you're screwed.
It sounds bad... liquid on the back, oil spattered up into the air filter, and engine running poorly, after the first really cold day in years... Bad.
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had similar, twas a head gasket.
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First thought is head gasket too..
second is distributer. I learned when my car got jerky, and I thought the transmission was slipping it was actually the coil (no "real" distributer cap in my car). the engine was mis-firing, and over 40 the flywheel engaged, causing the lurching.
last, fuel filter. I got bad gas once, watery, and froze / clogged my fuel filter with sludge. unfortunately my fuel filter was IN the gas tank :furious but that will definitely cause a rough running engine. Especially if you recently got freezing weather, when you normally don't get those temperatures.
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Gunslinger, you haven't been able to provide enough information for a diagnosis to be possible. The possibilities range from extremely minor stuff to major.
The one thing I will say is that your oil change has nothing to do with your trouble, unless you used the wrong filter or not enough oil.
The one most useful thing you've said is that you don't know where to start. This is an instance where even an expert (such as me) can't help you without getting "hands on" under your hood.
My best advice is to locate someone you can trust locally for a diagnosis.
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It's a straight six with the plugs right there where you can get to em...
buy a cheapo compression tester at the local auto parts store and pull all the plugs and run a check on the compression. tell us what the readings are.
lazs
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Or just change the $2 fuel filter and see what happens.
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never hurts to change the fuel filter but it is gonna be a lot more than $2 on a fuel injected car and it will probly be fairly time consuming to change... and dirty work..
the tester will cost the same or less and take as long or less to use and you won't get as dirty and... it will actually tell you something and....
You will now own a compression tester.
lazs
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You can also try to plug each spark plug hole with your thumb and crank the engine. If any cylinder is REALLY low on compression you will notice it.
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Besides, just pulling the plugs and looking at them is a good indication of problems. If you notice no difference in any of the plugs, and you find no problems with compression in the cylinders, then you have either a fuel or electrical problem. You can probably assume since it happened after a cold snap that it would be a water in the fuel problem, but we all know what happens when you assume. :)
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It sounds like your head gasket has developed leaks. If water had gotten cold enough to freeze in the block the freeze plugs would have come out.
My diagnosis is based on:
a.) the hotter than normal temperature reading
b.) "smoke" (which I am betting is water vapor)
c.) Oil from the intake manifold, due to cylinder gas and water vapor having enough velocity to make it into the air cleaner.
d.) the exhaust leak sound
Check for water in the oil and oil in the coolant. You may not see oil in the coolant because the gasket is leaking between the intake manifold and the head coolant passage. The cylinder that has the exhaust leak sound is probably the one that is missing and causing rough idle.
Does the exhaust have any different odor or color? Are you losing coolant? A yes to those two questions would confirm a head gasket leak. That's my armchair diagnosis.
Good Luck,
Malta
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what you call "freeze plugs" are not "freeze plugs" they are core plugs and they plug the holes in the cast block left by the supports used in the casting of the block to hold the core of the sand mold in place during the casting.
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Sorry I can't really solve the current saga fo Gunslinger's Jeep because I had to work all day but here's what happened on the way to work.
I warmed up my car for about 10 minutes this morning. It was rough going for the first mile and then like the snap of a finger it went right back to normal.
Chapter 3
I had to go to the post office in the middle of the afternoon. I drove around for about 10 minutes and it was rough the whole time but I made 2 stops.
Chapter 4
Before going home tonight I shared a smoke with a friend and warmed up the jeep again letting it idle for about 5 minutes. Then after only a few minutes of driving it smoothed the hell out and was actually very responsive. After that I'm going to flush and fill my radiator for good measure and see what I can see.
I think the HEAT tm is doing the trick. I'm going to change my fuel filter this weekend as it's pretty well exposed and easy to get to. Then I'm going to get a compression tester and a cheap fuel pressure guage and see what I can see. Thanks for the ideas so far.
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*sigh*
Always go w/ the easy fix first.. The colder than normal temps probably caused some condensation in your gas tank, allowing for water in the fuel or maybe even some ice in the lines/filter like the only other person with any sense suggested. All these guys going straight to "cracked block" "blown head gasket" are the chicken and "the sky is falling".
During the cold months try to keep your tank 3/4 full or better to avoid this problem in the future.
A little oily smoke coming from the breather is normal. When you have nothing coming from there, then worry about your PCV valve.
A cracked block/ blown head gasket almost always wil reveal itself by the very smokey and white exhaust and mixed fluids.(oil in coolant, antifreeze in oil).
There's nothing wrong w/ changing your fuel filter but I bet the Heat/full tank cures your woes. A compression test and further searching is unwarranted unless your problem persists.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
snip
Before going home tonight I shared a smoke with a friend and warmed up the jeep again letting it idle for about 5 minutes.
I always found that smoking made me stupid enough that it was best to just sit down and munch, rather than try to do anything useful, once I started doing that on any particular day :)
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Get a compression reading before you go any further. Sounds like valve trouble.
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Originally posted by Cpt. Krunch
Get a compression reading before you go any further. Sounds like valve trouble.
lol
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Guns, trust in RPM. I would'nt BS you on engine stuff.:)
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Gunslinger,
What you seem to be experiancing is a "cold starting condition". What I mean here is when the weather gets below a certain degree, your Jeep's computer system enriches the fuel mixture to allow for the lack of vaporization of the fuel before it is ignighted in the compression chamber. Once the engine has reached a certain temperature, the system puts it back to a "normal" setting. If, during this "enriched" period, the setting is a little too rich, due to age of the vehicle or improper adjustment, you will experiance the stumbling and ratteling you seem to be having. It should be checked out with a reputable repair service that have the electronic equipment to monitor and/or adjust the correct settings. If you can afford to wait a few minutes after starting the vehicle untill it warms up, you should be able to drive it normally thereafter. My authority on this is from owning a Jeep Cherokee with a 4.0 six, and also being a certified ASE mechanic for over 10 years. I'd go get it checked out first before I started changing out parts that could get really expensive, and not fix your problem. Just my $0.02 :aok
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I agree that you do all the easy stuff first.. I would pull the radiator cap and let the car warm up and see what it looked like in there... no bubbles etc.. I would look at the dipstick and see what the oil looked like... dump a can of some water treatment in the tank. etc.
I would not put up with a car that ran like that when it was cold for 5 minutes or more.
If you don't mind spending the $75 bucks or more it is indeed best to take it to someone with the proper electronic equipment to check it out.
but... My girlfriends s10 would start really hard when it was cold.... obvious fuel problem... I changed the filter (was a *****) and no joy... hooked up a fuel pressure guage (cheap tool) and it showed fine.
took it to a friends shop who has the electronics and is a certified smog station... everything was perfect except... the car wouldn't start cold. He got all the service bulletins on the truck...
ends up... was a fuel pump. The pump not only has to have between 58-64 pounds but... it needs to not lose more than something like 4 pounds in 15 minutes...
moral is.. all the electronic gear told us nothing and in the end... the cheapo fuel pressure guage did the work (well.... his was an expensive snap on but..)
don't know what this means other than...sometimes it is easy and sometimes not.... sometimes the fancy electronics will tell the tale and sometimes not.
lazs
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To finish this chapter it was either the Plugs, Wires, or distrib/rotor. THe rotor and points where completly brown, the plugs I pulled where either: Brown, Green, or completly white (that might have been from driving it so long.
Either way some new bosch plugs/wires and cap and the thing runs like a champ. I could have swore the plugs are only a year old but I could easily be wrong and it could be more like 5 years lol.
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Thanks for the update Gunslinger.
Never would have guessed the ignition system.
Congrats on getting it fixed. :aok
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Ditto. It sure didn't sound like ignition, but ya never know. At least ya didn't tear it down to replace a head gasket.:aok
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LOL, that would have been my guess.
But bad ignition can also put up quite a show.
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So if you would have pulled the plugs to do a compression check you would have noticed that they weren't firing right?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
So if you would have pulled the plugs to do a compression check you would have noticed that they weren't firing right?
lazs
:aok :D
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
To finish this chapter it was either the Plugs, Wires, or distrib/rotor. THe rotor and points where completly brown, the plugs I pulled where either: Brown, Green, or completly white (that might have been from driving it so long.
Either way some new bosch plugs/wires and cap and the thing runs like a champ. I could have swore the plugs are only a year old but I could easily be wrong and it could be more like 5 years lol.
Sounds like it was the wires to me. They would quit arcing after the engine warmed up and dried them. Seen it happen before. Wonder if it ever ran bad during rain or foggy days.
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Well it seems I'm curing the symptoms and not the disease. It's happening again. It's not as bad as before but I think I ruined the CAT in the process cause it sounds like a bunch of marbles in a tin can.
Now I know I have an exhaust leak that I'm fixing this weekend but it seems to have fouled up another plug.
The first cylinder isn't firing. It comes and goes but it's here to stay now. I'm gonna pull the plugs again tomorrow and look at them. I think the Jeep has bested me this time and its gonna take a professional to diagnose the problem.
anyone have any other idears?
Everything else is good. no major leaks except the rear main. They seem to allways go in jeeps.
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Catalytic converters are just one of those things, one of those expensive, pain in the bellybutton things that will die, as everything else on the vehicle will. Mostly likely due to getting it hot and then hitting a puddle or something like that, causing the material to break apart (if it's honeycomb style). Broken pieces clogging your exhaust can cause a no start, happened to a kids car at school and baffled the teacher for an hour and a half. You might just have a piece getting somewhere just enough to clog it up a bit.
That might be what's fouling up your plugs but I'm not really sure, if your piston rings are sealing then it's probably running too lean, which you should be able to smell.
Good luck on the diagnosis, hope it doesn't cost you too much.
Forgot about worn valve guides letting oil in. Here's a site on spark plugs if you want to look into them more in depth http://www.aa1car.com/library/sprkplg2.htm
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did you overfill it?
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Didja check the dinglebolt?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well it seems I'm curing the symptoms and not the disease. It's happening again. It's not as bad as before but I think I ruined the CAT in the process cause it sounds like a bunch of marbles in a tin can.
Now I know I have an exhaust leak that I'm fixing this weekend but it seems to have fouled up another plug.
The first cylinder isn't firing. It comes and goes but it's here to stay now. I'm gonna pull the plugs again tomorrow and look at them. I think the Jeep has bested me this time and its gonna take a professional to diagnose the problem.
anyone have any other idears?
Everything else is good. no major leaks except the rear main. They seem to allways go in jeeps.
how old is that jeep again? the cat probably has a cooling sleeve that surrounds it. sometimes the vibrations fatigue the steel that holds them about 1/2" off of the cat and the perforated steel piece is just laying atop of the cat giving you your annoying rattle. check that first. with the cat cool just reach above it and cop a feel.
how do you know it's not firing? how did you test to be sure? did you replace the dist cap rotor and wires? pull the plug and check gap also check for fouling.
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If he has driven any considerable length with the engine running like it was, then the cat is most likely busted. For every percentage of CO in the exhaust gas it's operating temperature will initially raise by around 100 degrees Celcius. Even small unnoticeable misfiring or slightly rich mixture may cause damage to it, and noticeable misfiring will definately cause damage.
If you replace the cat make sure that it's intestines haven't blocked the muffler behind it.
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The Jeep is a 93 but the motor is only about 5 years old. It's a remanufactured long block. I replaced all the plugs wires rotor and cap. The thing ran smooth for a week and now it's doing it again.
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Could be EGR valve..that would cause a rough idle.Engine diagnostic would find that out.
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Gunslinger, another possibility is that the cat is done... plugged up.(it happens)
This is a simple test.... yank the cat and run the motor.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well it seems I'm curing the symptoms and not the disease. It's happening again. It's not as bad as before but I think I ruined the CAT in the process cause it sounds like a bunch of marbles in a tin can.
Now I know I have an exhaust leak that I'm fixing this weekend but it seems to have fouled up another plug.
The first cylinder isn't firing. It comes and goes but it's here to stay now. I'm gonna pull the plugs again tomorrow and look at them. I think the Jeep has bested me this time and its gonna take a professional to diagnose the problem.
anyone have any other idears?
Everything else is good. no major leaks except the rear main. They seem to allways go in jeeps.
$20 says you have a blown ring in the cylinder. You have blow-by in the cylinder that isn't firing.
Is this a 4.0L HO or a 4.2L? I'm guessing you have the 4.2L, and if so, this has been your culprit all along.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
$20 says you have a blown ring in the cylinder. You have blow-by in the cylinder that isn't firing.
I'll take that bet.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
$20 says you have a blown ring in the cylinder. You have blow-by in the cylinder that isn't firing.
Is this a 4.0L HO or a 4.2L? I'm guessing you have the 4.2L, and if so, this has been your culprit all along.
It's the 4.0L HO. That link that nirvana posted has been pretty insightfull.
Steve I don't think the cat is plugged. I think it's a symptom and not the problem. Either way I have my new exhaust sitting right next to me with the exception of the header. That got lost in Dallas and ended up in mesquit, TX.
I'm just a little too hung over to do much right now.
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Pulled the plug on the number 1 cylinder and it's not good news for me.
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1422/imga0069vc0.jpg)
EDIT: In case you havn't read the whole thread, these are brand new (well 2 weeks old)
So that's not oil but completly coated with a layer of carbon.
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Hmmm, Well if it's limited to one cylinder, you are probably talking about a sticking valve/bad seal or maybe stuck(closed), blocked, malfunctioning injector. What do the other plugls look like?
Of course w/ the advent of onboard computers to screw up, I mean monitor, everything that's always a possibility.
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I'm pulling the rest of the plugs now but it gets worse. Here's the oil fill cap and the breather from the valve cover.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4017/imga0072da6.jpg)
would that be coolent mixing with oil?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'm pulling the rest of the plugs now but it gets worse. Here's the oil fill cap and the breather from the valve cover.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4017/imga0072da6.jpg)
would that be coolent mixing with oil?
Now you're getting somewhere.. and it's not looking good. It looks like the fluids are mixing but I can't say for sure since I'm not there. What does the coolant look like?
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you have coolent in your oil , time for a leak down test, and compression test.
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that looks like you are making oil. maybe a head gasket maybe a cracked block. does the starter turn over slugglishly in the morning? what does the dipstick oil look like when you check it cold?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Now you're getting somewhere.. and it's not looking good. It looks like the fluids are mixing but I can't say for sure since I'm not there. What does the coolant look like?
The coolent looks brown and foamy
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Originally posted by storch
that looks like you are making oil. maybe a head gasket maybe a cracked block. does the starter turn over slugglishly in the morning? what does the dipstick oil look like when you check it cold?
The dipstick looks like it's normal dark color. Underneith the valve cover is where I'm seeing the weird coloring.
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you have a small leak probably the head gasket. has the car overheated recently?
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Hmm not good. Feel the coolant.. slippery(more than normal)? Sludge on finger?
Milky stuff on dipstick? You are really narrowing it down now.
Starting to look like your worse fears are likely... warped head(s), cracked block, blown gasket.
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you might be getting water/coolant into the #1 cylinder hence my question about the struggling starter in the AM but if the leak is small it would not be pertinent. what john001 said
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Originally posted by storch
you might be getting water/coolant into the #1 cylinder hence my question about the struggling starter in the AM but if the leak is small it would not be pertinent. what john001 said
It starts up just fine in the morning. Yes it did recently over heat. It didn't boil over, but it got up to 240 on the guage where it normally sits at or below 210. I added coolent and all was better.
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Originally posted by john9001
you have coolent in your oil , time for a leak down test, and compression test.
GS, john9001 is correct, the picture of the breather and cap clearly indicate coolant mixing in the oil. However, the leakdown test and compression test aren't necessary.
Proceed to remove the cylinder head. Have it pressure tested for cracks. If it fails, obtain another cylinder head.
If it passes that test, check its gasket surface with a precision straightedge. If it is not straight then have it milled, unless it needs more than about .015" removed to be straight, in which case obtain another cylinder head.
Install the head with a new gasket. I highly recommend Fel-Pro brand.
Install a new thermostat. Use the OEM temperature rating, do not listen to the numerous idiots who will recommend using a "colder" one.
Backflush the cooling system, then remove the radiator and have it rodded out. If it has leaks in the core, replace the radiator with a new one.
Inspect the fan clutch, replace it if necessary. Make sure any electric auxiliary fans are working.
Use new antifreeze to fill the cooling system, 50% - 65% concentration (no less, no more).
Change the oil and filter.
That is all, troop :)
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^^^^^
the great and powerful Oz has spoken. my amateur services are no longer needed here. :D
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I'm a pretty handy mechanic but I've never even thought about pulling an engine head. This will probably be left up to the proffesionals....:(
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it's not that big of a deal but if you can afford to that wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'm a pretty handy mechanic but I've never even thought about pulling an engine head. This will probably be left up to the proffesionals....:(
Its not actually a job I'd say exceeds the capabilities of the average DIY-type guy. Its a fairly lengthy procedure (I would budget a day and a half, prolly double that for an amateur) but its just a long list of relatively simple things to do. Get a Chilton or Haynes manual at the auto supply and read the procedure, then just follow it step-by-step and you really can't go wrong.
The base hobby shop will have everything you need, and if you do it at home you can borrow a torque wrench (about the only thing other than hand tools that is needed) from the auto supply that sells you the head gasket set.
That said, if you can afford it of course farm it out (you prolly have better things to do with your free time). However, when shopping for estimates, BE DAMN SURE to both get them in writing, and make sure they include each and every item in the list I gave you above. Many shady operators will quote you just the labor to replace the head gasket plus the gasket set, then proceed to nickle and dime you to death with the rest once they've torn it down.
Hope this helps, g'luck.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
The coolent looks brown and foamy
Easy. You have a cracked head. You'd KNOW if you had a cracked block. IT would be a lot worse.
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Originally posted by culero
Its not actually a job I'd say exceeds the capabilities of the average DIY-type guy. Its a fairly lengthy procedure (I would budget a day and a half, prolly double that for an amateur) but its just a long list of relatively simple things to do. Get a Chilton or Haynes manual at the auto supply and read the procedure, then just follow it step-by-step and you really can't go wrong.
The base hobby shop will have everything you need, and if you do it at home you can borrow a torque wrench (about the only thing other than hand tools that is needed) from the auto supply that sells you the head gasket set.
That said, if you can afford it of course farm it out (you prolly have better things to do with your free time). However, when shopping for estimates, BE DAMN SURE to both get them in writing, and make sure they include each and every item in the list I gave you above. Many shady operators will quote you just the labor to replace the head gasket plus the gasket set, then proceed to nickle and dime you to death with the rest once they've torn it down.
Hope this helps, g'luck.
maybe I'll give it a shot, I'm on leave all next week. I'm replacing the stock manifold (as soon as it gets here) If I have the thing torn apart I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
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I had an old chevelle that overheated, without thinking about what I was doing I filled the radiator up with coolant before the block had a chance to cool down. Result was a cracked block. It ran fine for about a week, then started blowing white smoke (actually vaporized coolant), became hard to turn over (assuming excessive friction in #1 cylinder) and eventually wouldnt turn over at all. I knew I either had a cracked block or blown head gasket. I eventually pulled the head, here are some things I learned in that process.
When you take off the head (a realtively simple, if time consuming task), mark EVERYTHING. I mean EVERYTHING. Get yourself a roll of masking or duct tape, a sharpie, a handful of ziplock bags, some clean lint free rags, and a box or 2 of disposable vinly/nitrilite(sp) gloves and an egg carton. Mark every harness plug and its mate with tape, do the same for each and every vacuum hose, number both the male and female parts. When you reassemble you can just match the #'s (or letters, whichever) up. Dont rely on your memory, you will have too many other things to think about than wether this hose goes to this port, or to the one next to it. With modern computer screwedup ... I mean controlled engines, one insignificant hose out of place can cause headaches.
Wear the gloves. Be one with the gloves. They are disposable, use them accordingly. There is nothing worse than trying to find the baggie with the exhaust manifold bolts, only to find the label for each baggie is all covered with oil, grease and road grime. They also make going for a smoke/burger/stripper much easier. Your wife will appreciate them too, no more grease smeared door handles, or the grease spot about elbow high where you push the door closed (its these kind of little 'thoughtful' things you should do to REALLY screw with her mind).
Use the eggcarton to hold things specific to each cylinder, such as valves, rods, springs, or any other little do-dads. Mark one end of the egg carton FRONT to correspond with the front of the vehicle. Each 'set' of egg holders will correspond to one cylinder. (12 egg holders/2= 6 cylinders). When I did my truck (4.9L 6 cly) I put the headder bolts in the egg carton as well, it was reccomended to reinstall them in the same order as they were removed. Most books also suggest reinstalling the cylinder head bolts in the same place as well.
When you remove a set of nuts/bolts/screws/washers/etc from a particular unit or part, place them ALL in a ziplock back and label the bag with what is in it. An example would be your intake manifold bolts, Alternator bolts/nuts, EFI fasteners, etc, etc.
When you have the head off, take a look at the cylinder walls. I could distinctly see the cracks in my cylinder walls, that discovery saved me the time of checking the condition of the head (which ended up as a boat anchor btw).
Eventually you will take off the manifold/carb/efi, when you do, cover it up with the lint free rags. It is a ROYAL pain in the backside to get terrycloth fluff out of a carb/intake. Trust me on this.
Moral is, be anal about your disassembly. It makes putting things back together so much easier. You will know what goes where, and how many of these doohickeys go on the thingamabob. As an added bonus, you dont end up with a box of "spare" parts.
Speaking of ... I have a box of assorted 350ci spare parts, anyone interested? ;-)
I hope it goes well.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
maybe I'll give it a shot, I'm on leave all next week. I'm replacing the stock manifold (as soon as it gets here) If I have the thing torn apart I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
Hey once you have the manifolds off, the rest of taking the head off is really simple.
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Originally posted by Coshy
snip
Moral is, be anal about your disassembly. It makes putting things back together so much easier. You will know what goes where, and how many of these doohickeys go on the thingamabob. As an added bonus, you dont end up with a box of "spare" parts.
Yanno, that's really great advice. It hadn't occured to me, but a professional can simply look at things and recognize where they are supposed to go. If you don't do it everyday, leaving a trail of bread crumbs might save your bacon.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Pulled the plug on the number 1 cylinder and it's not good news for me.
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1422/imga0069vc0.jpg)
EDIT: In case you havn't read the whole thread, these are brand new (well 2 weeks old)
So that's not oil but completly coated with a layer of carbon.
My GOD man, who selected that paint color???
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well.. so we are back to running a compression check and actually looking in the radiator to see bubbles?
It probly is a blown head gasket.. you woulda only been out a few bucks on the test but..
cuelo is probly right at this point.. time to pull the head. You can do it. Keep everything organized and get a decent manual. The neat thing these days is digital cameras... take lots of pics of everything.
lazs
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If the hardest part is pulling the manifolds I've done that before when I did the long block swap about 5 years ago. That's as simple as removing the fuel rail and pulling about 8 hard to reach bolts.
all the harnesses are one for one meaning they won't plug into anywere else but where they go.
I'm goin to the parts store now to get supplies, I'll take pictures and keep you all informed
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Originally posted by culero
Yanno, that's really great advice. It hadn't occured to me, but a professional can simply look at things and recognize where they are supposed to go. If you don't do it everyday, leaving a trail of bread crumbs might save your bacon.
Yep.
Get a sharpie and use ziplocks to label where every bolt came from.
My first thought was blown head gasket,but I stayed out because there are more informed people here than me.
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Is this enough proof that it's a head gasket.
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/5112/dcp1371bc7.jpg)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3316/dcp1370sj5.jpg)
And yes Laz I am doing a compression check. I didn't realize the testers where only $19.99 so I sprung for one today. :aok
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After having to help my wife shop all day (I did buy me some new sockets universals and extensions)
I finally got around to the compression test
Here's the result
Cyl / 1st Compression / max compression
1 / 90 / 120
2 / 90 / 123
3 / 89 / 119
4 / 89 / 121
5 / 94 / 149
6 / 120 / 154
I'm not sure how to read these as 5 and 6 are in limits according to my haynes manual and there shouldn't be more than 30 PSI varience between them.
Keep in mind this is an inline 6 and the problem cylinder is the no. 1. No. 6 is all the way in the back.
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Might as well make this a play by play:
Power steering pump removed:
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/266/dcp1372wn3.jpg)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4674/dcp1373ph7.jpg)
Radiator Drained. Notice the superb brown colored coolant:
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3057/dcp1374ec5.jpg)
It was at this point that my air compressor died. I'm not sure what's wrong with it but it won't turn on. In addition I remembered from the last time I had this apart that most of the intake is metric.
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6306/dcp1375mh3.jpg)
I broke 3 vacume hoses, they are going to be a pita to replace.
(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5256/dcp1379rv6.jpg)
and now it's dinner time.
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I've put heads on without a torque wrench but I don't recommend it. You should look up the tightening order and buy a torque wrench. Removing the extraneous crap is the biggest part of the job and it looks your already there. Good luck Gun.
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Got the exhust manifold off.
Got the valve cover off
Pulled a bunch of hoses
Here's the rocker arms
(http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/7175/dcp1382xr0.jpg)
There's the things (cant remember the names) that hold them
(http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2732/dcp1386jo7.jpg)
The striped down motor
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2063/dcp1387qu4.jpg)
It's amazing that the water pump can push coolant through this crap
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2687/dcp1388is0.jpg)
EDIT:
I found a nut under the valve cover. It's kinda weird because there's nothing that's missing a nut.
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Looks like those are the rocker arms whereas the small cylinders are push rods.
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I got ya beat Gunslinger! I pulled my motor as my CJ7 has been in my garage since January 19th.
Here you go:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/Engine001.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/Engine002.jpg)
The three sausage pieces were from my pizza as I was pointing out the carnage to a buddy, who lent me the use of his cherry picker today.
Diagnosis: Cylinder 5 has a shattered connecting rod, and Bearing. The block is also broken at the bottom of the cylinder wall. This is AMC304 is toast. Now I'm in the market for a 360 or another 304.
:aok I miss driving it. :cry
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I had a 304 in my 80 CJ-5. The motor needed a rebuild and the frame rwas rusting away but I got $2k for it.
Anyone know if you can replace vacume lines with simular diameter rubber hose?
As along as it has a seal I don't see the difference but I broke three of them as they were brittle as all hell.
I can't them only at 4wd.com or quadratec.
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try bulltear
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you should be able to get generic vacuum hose at NAPA or any auto parts store.
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I don't have a ton of experience but it looks like you're got the lifters labeled. Don't get those mixed up or else.... Once again, good luck.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
After having to help my wife shop all day (I did buy me some new sockets universals and extensions)
I finally got around to the compression test
Here's the result
Cyl / 1st Compression / max compression
1 / 90 / 120
2 / 90 / 123
3 / 89 / 119
4 / 89 / 121
5 / 94 / 149
6 / 120 / 154
I'm not sure how to read these as 5 and 6 are in limits according to my haynes manual and there shouldn't be more than 30 PSI varience between them.
Keep in mind this is an inline 6 and the problem cylinder is the no. 1. No. 6 is all the way in the back.
I look for 10% spread. If that were my engine it would already be out and on it's way to to a reputable engine rebuilder. but that's just me.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
snip
Anyone know if you can replace vacume lines with simular diameter rubber hose?
As along as it has a seal
Yeah, take a sample of the tube and buy hose it fits.
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I was sure I mentioned that a compression tester was cheap?
While the head is off I would run it down to the local rebuilder and have them do a valve job on it and check it for warpage.. a big ol six head has a lot of room to warp.. they will probly have to surface it. still fairly cheap.
lazs
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I think I found the problem, this looks to me like it would be the "money shot"
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7905/dcp1394jw3.th.jpg) (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp1394jw3.jpg)
The valve on the left that's covered in oil looks nothing like the valve to the right of it. The one on the left is for the no. 1 cyl
It was mentioned in another forum that I'm posting in that it's probably a valve guide seal.....It looks to me like he nailed it.
Laz, again i'm ignorant here, but I'm assuming a "valve job" would replace that seal?
The gasket doesn't appear to have any damage at all on it.
I'm uploading pics of the cylinders now.
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(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2166/dcp1395zp9.th.jpg) (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp1395zp9.jpg)
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9126/dcp1397nk9.th.jpg) (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp1397nk9.jpg)
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4162/dcp1398gw7.th.jpg) (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp1398gw7.jpg)
I'll have some better shots once my other camera is charged. This one doesn't have a working display window so It's hard to guess what the picture is off.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I think I found the problem, this looks to me like it would be the "money shot"
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7905/dcp1394jw3.th.jpg) (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp1394jw3.jpg)
The valve on the left that's covered in oil looks nothing like the valve to the right of it. The one on the left is for the no. 1 cyl
It was mentioned in another forum that I'm posting in that it's probably a valve guide seal.....It looks to me like he nailed it.
Laz, again i'm ignorant here, but I'm assuming a "valve job" would replace that seal?
The gasket doesn't appear to have any damage at all on it.
I'm uploading pics of the cylinders now.
I'd say you have bad valve seals, but that still doesn't explain how the oil is getting into your coolant (unless I've skimmed over it).
In order for oil to get into the radiator one of 4 things has to happen:
1. Block is cracked
2. Head gasket is blown
3, Head is cracked/warped
4. Your idiot (ex)wife decides to 'top off' the oil and dumps it into the radiator (had it happen to me, fortunately it was HER car LOL)
I'm not a pro, but oil leaking into an intake runner from a bad valve seal won't get into your coolant system and really isnt a incredibly major problem, unless its severe oil leakage.
A valve job should replace the valve guide seals, be sure to ask exactly what will be replaced, machined and reused.
I just got a tooth pulled and am on some verrrrrry good pain killers, so I may be completely missing something, if so, disregard this post.
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Thanks Coshy,
I'm not sure now if I had a major oil leak into my coolant system. I know it had some as it was all foamy but inside the block itself the coolant looked ok. It might have been just real rusty, but I'm not sure. I am thinking if I just flushed the system It'd be good for another year.
Currently I'm trying to figure out why my no.1 cylinder is missing and I'm hopeing this is the problem.
Hope your mouth feels better, I hate getting teeth pulled.
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Re: vacuum hoses
Sometimes the preformed 'hard' lines are there because the vaccum would suck shut regular hose.
I had this exact problem when I replaced the 4.9 in my truck. I broke a whole handful of those brittle plastic hard lines. I was fortunate to have my father-in law helping me, we fabricated lines from similar diamater steel brake/fuel lines and used regular rubber hose just at the ends.
I'd say go with the regular hose, just be aware that rough running, perhaps some surging and other relatively minor ailments may be due to a hose being sucked shut.
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Here I go spamming the forum ...
Compression check: 5 & 6 looked a little wonky to me, but if they are within the range allowed then that eliminates a cracked cylinder wall. 5 & 6 being high could mean there was water or oil in the combustion chamber (they wont compress like air does and will give a higher reading). From the pic (I think its #5 cyl), the cylinder wall looks a bit rusty and the top of the piston has some yellow/whitish residue, which isnt seen on any of the other cylinders, possibly meaning water is entering from somewhere.
From the pics of the cylinders, especially evident in the middle pic, I am seeing that your water tubes/tunnels/whatever the technical name is are nearly plugged with residue. Those are the triangular ones at the bottom of the pic. It looks like oil/water foamy crud, but it could be excessive scale or sediment. Whatever it is, its not good.
Also from the pics of your radiator & cap, oil filler cap, PCV valve and water pump you are definately getting oil into your water, and some water into your oil (oil filler cap & PCV valve).
I'd keep digging a little deeper, a bad valve guide seal is bad, but I think the oil/water mixing is your biggest threat.
Before you start reassembly, you might want to wait for other opinions, it be a pain in the bellybutton to put it all back together and find out you have more things to check.
I so wish I was in Tx, I have the next 4 days off and I love digging into stuff like this!
Thanks for the well wishes, the dentist liked me and I got some good drugs.
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Here's my theory on the compression check results.
Upon closer examination of my valves the no. 6 was bad as well.
Her'e's a good one:
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2143/imga0078ao6.th.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0078ao6.jpg)
Here's the known bad no.1 cyl
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6523/imga0079kj4.th.jpg) (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0079kj4.jpg)
Here's the no. 6 cyl (not as bad as no. 1 but oily none the less)
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4899/imga0080pa6.th.jpg) (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0080pa6.jpg)
When I did the compression check the thing was in the drivway and thus putting the no.6 at the lowest point.(my driveway slants that way) It got a little more oil than the other cylinders. That's also why it got a bunch of coolant in it when I pulled the head.
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The resident expert over at the jeep forum (this guy actually nailed the problem on page 2 of the 4 page thread) says that a valve job on this would just put excessive wear on the head and to just replace the seals.
What do you resident subject matter experts think?
here's his exact words:
Well Santone the valve jobs are simply put...excessive WEAR on both the valves and the head! The grinding thins out both for no reason. If the valves are working I never have seen a need to grind them down and have them seated deeper in the head.
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This kinda worked out well as the head gasket kit includes all the valve seals as well.
anyone have any info on how the seals are put in the guides. I see spring but they seem to be "glued" in?
The haynes manual isn't helping.
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I think you still need to check the head out for warpage, that really does look like water in the oil, I would bet your gasket was bad and replacing it will fix that, but if its a warped head, you will be doing this all again.
It make sense to have it checked out while its off.
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oddly... leaking valve seals will give you a higher compression on a check.. to show you how that works you need only squirt a an oz of oil into one of the low compression cyls. and try the test again.
I'm still guessing blown head gasket.. probly due to a warped head.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
oddly... leaking valve seals will give you a higher compression on a check.. to show you how that works you need only squirt a an oz of oil into one of the low compression cyls. and try the test again.
I'm still guessing blown head gasket.. probly due to a warped head.
lazs
laz do you know how the seals are supposed to go in the guides. The one I pulled allready looked glued it as I'm still digging peices of the old seal out. There's not much room for the new one.
Also,
anyone know if these kits include new springs (for the seals) it would seem sill to up the old one back on there
If it's a warped head I'm sunk. I can't afford a new one right now.
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Question: these new seals do not have springs, just the metal clip at the top. Should I replace those with the springs or leave as is?
The new ones look completely rubber, while the old ones look like they had to be stamped on. There is a noticable difference in the "grab" of the new ones, but probably cause they are brand new. The existing seals just look cheap and worn. I ruined one of them not knowing that the metal portion of the old one had to be removed as well and wore out the new one by trying to put it over both the guide and the seal. (noobie move)
Old one
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8519/imga0082la0.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0082la0.jpg)
New one
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6729/imga0081dd2.th.jpg) (http://img112.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0081dd2.jpg)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6488/imga0083pz9.th.jpg) (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imga0083pz9.jpg)
The fellpro kit I got has about everything I need. It just sucks that I had the head off at about 10AM but didn't get the kit till about 330PM.
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The valve guide seals are merely caps held on by friction (the ones I've replaced at least). The springs around the tops of the old ones provide that friction, the metal bands on the new ones perform the same function. The 'glue' you are seeing may be silicone sealant, or just accumulated crud. I cant tell from the pics.
If you clean the (for lack of a better term) nipple where the valve stem comes through, you should be safe applying a small amount of silicone sealant at the base, just enough to hold the seals in place, but be sure its a hi-temp one that is impervious to gas and oil. To be honest you shouldnt need it. The caps should fit snugly on the nipple as well as the valve stem itself.
I would avoid the temptation to squeeze the metal band around the nipple, that could distort the rubber and put you back where you started.
Have you had any other opinions about oil/coolant? I'm curious what others on more automotive boards might be suggesting.
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maybe u might have flooded it, or u just might need some anti-freeze
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Originally posted by Coshy
The valve guide seals are merely caps held on by friction (the ones I've replaced at least). The springs around the tops of the old ones provide that friction, the metal bands on the new ones perform the same function. The 'glue' you are seeing may be silicone sealant, or just accumulated crud. I cant tell from the pics.
If you clean the (for lack of a better term) nipple where the valve stem comes through, you should be safe applying a small amount of silicone sealant at the base, just enough to hold the seals in place, but be sure its a hi-temp one that is impervious to gas and oil. To be honest you shouldnt need it. The caps should fit snugly on the nipple as well as the valve stem itself.
I would avoid the temptation to squeeze the metal band around the nipple, that could distort the rubber and put you back where you started.
Have you had any other opinions about oil/coolant? I'm curious what others on more automotive boards might be suggesting.
Actually what I thought was glued in was just the rubber portion of the old seal. When I removed one I just pulled on the rubber with a pair of needle nose. The thing that it attaches to is metal, as shown in the pic. I didn't realize that the entire thing came off. The new ones seem MUCH better as the old ones were very brittle.
My subject matter expert from the 4x4 board says he's never seen a HG failure on a 4.0 without having the radiator "puke it's contense out."
He doesn't seem to think the mixture of oil and coolant was that bad.
I went ahead and put the head back on as I'm running out of time. I gotta get the engine put back together and the exaust done tomorrow. I go back to work sunday but have alot of stuff to do between now and then.
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Over heating is probably the main cause of head gasket failure but it's not the only cause
It might not apply in this situation, but head bolts that haven’t been torqued to spec or have worked loose can cause head gasket failure and often a warped head
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I would strongly suggest that you have the head rebuilt (valve job) at a known reputable shop... It will save you money and grief in the long run... If the head is warped you simply need to have it surfaced... if it is so bad that it can't be surfaced or... it is cracked and the magnaflux shows that.... the rebuilder probly has a reasonably priced core.
There are lots of reasons valve seals fail and lots of different types of seals.. usually.. if the seals have failed the guides and/or valves are worn so new seals will not do the job.
I have been broke and tried to mickey mouse things back together too many times myself including hand lapping valves and knurling guides... all kinds of make do fixes.. I simply feel you will be better off getting a professional valve job.
lazs
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And realize that what one mechanic considers a "valve job" isn't the same as the next one... One will charge you to simply grind the valve seats, and the next will re-do the valve guides, work any alignment problems, replace bent valves, check pushrods, spring tensions, and put the whole thing back together properly using new bushings/bearings, the right tolerances and torque specs, etc.
Getting the head squared/surfaced is sort of the same... Some guys can work magic and true up a mildly warped head or match it to the block, but others will just slap on a thick coat of form-a-gasket and hope it lasts longer than their 30 day warranty. Find out exactly what work they plan on doing. Don't trust the generic job description.
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no rebuilt head would not include a magnaflux of the head and a check for straight and checking the valves/valve guides.
lazs
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Either way the head went back on today. I followed the book and checked it best I could with a strait edge. I bought a torque wrench and followed the instructions on torqing the sucker down. All the rockers went back on. I almost had a nightmare when the LAST push rod fell through but was able to retrieve it with a magnet.
I spent the rest of the day cutting out my exhaust. While doing so I noticed my tail pipe had a severe bend in it, probably from the accident it was in a year ago.
I really wish the head pipe I ordered was here cause I'm ready for it as I'm not sure what's going to happen when I cut that end of the CAT off.
I'm hopeing to have the exaust done by tommorrow so I can finish putting everything under the hood back together then start on replacing the carpet.
After the jeep is done my new pool liner should be here and it's off to work on that.
Wow I love vacations.
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Gun I know it's a bit late but invest in one of these if you like doin it yourself.
http://www.stant.com/index.cfm?location_id=183
Can help narrow down the problem when diagnosing.
Bronk