Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: eagl on January 20, 2007, 10:36:30 AM
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A thought crept into my brain...
Some people think they DESERVE their salary (or deserve a higher salary), and some people figure that the salary they're being paid motivates them to work harder. It's sort of a glass half-full vs. half empty sort of question.
So... does your salary motivate you to work hard to deserve to get paid, or do you think you are owed something and deserve your salary because of what you do?
And regardless of what your answer is, have you ever changed your mind on this issue?
If at least 10 people answer honestly, I'll give my own opinion :)
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Almost everyone thinks they deserve more salary. 75% are only motivated at work to do just enough not to get fired.
I think my salary is acceptable for my position, taking the nature of my industry and similar payscales into context.
Does my salary motivate me? Not really. I am more motivated at work to perform in a manner that earns respect from my peers and customers, appreciation from my superiors, and job security. Additonally I work hard as it helps me feel good about myself, allows me a measure of self-respect and allows me to feel I am of value to my employer.
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I look at it like this...
one day I sat in an interview room and told a bunch of suits that i would in effect bust my arse to get "my" job done.
Now I do that ... do they still pay me what we agreed on with adjustments based on cost of living? yes
To me spending 8 hours or more pretending to work has got to make for a lot longer eight hours.
if I am not getting paid enough I should renegotiate(ask for a raise ) or go find someone who will pay me more.
slacking is stealing and going back on your word.
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The more I work the more I earn. I'll live on my basic salary, and I can almost double it from provisions and overtime if I work hard and do a bit of overtime now and then. I'm content and it motivates. I've changed my opinion several times allready.
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16 tons and whaddaya get....
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I believe all my jobs pay fairly. And I work hard to earn it. I wouldn't be in the job if I didn't believe it was a fair trade.
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I wouldn't say I deserve it, but it's flat rate so that tends to even things out.
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I'm lucky to be in one of those jobs where I am paid more for what I know than I am for what I do... I am paid fairly, and have no serious complaints, however, I believe the value I provide is greater than the money returned by about 15%.
I am blessed with a boss who understands that value, and is working to correct the 15% error with his superiors.
In short, I believe my employer pays me fairly for my work, and money is not my primary motivator. Although it probably is my number 2 motivation. Honestly, my primary motivator is (selfishly) recognition of the work I do.
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Originally posted by lukster
16 tons and whaddaya get....
Another day older and deeper in debt.
I have had more motivation from myself to do a job than the salary could provide. Having said that, I did work where I could make a decent wage for the area I live in. It just wasn't the money that motivated me to do my job. It was my own sense of self worth even more than peer recognition. Peer recognition was and IS a great motivator as well but if you consdtantly need outside approval for what you do you'll quickly wear out your welcome with your peers.
What I looked for was pride in my own work and expertise in it. I knew after a while that I was one of the best in my particular field to do the job as it came up. Having a job where things didn't stay static all the time also helped maintain interest as well as the occasional threat to life and limb. Could I have changed my career path and made more even in the same field? Absolutely, but it would have meant giving up a great amount of independence and working in an area I liked to be in.
Later on after I had retired twice I took a job that paid considerably worse and required I work considerably harder (physically) but was still rewarding as it was doing something I liked doing. I also knew my time there was limited until the wife retired then we were outa there. I wasn't there for the money, I was there to do technically challenging work with a good friend. It was worth it to me.
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im getting a percentage cut of every job we complete.
the glass is full
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Originally posted by FBplmmr
I look at it like this...
one day I sat in an interview room and told a bunch of suits that i would in effect bust my arse to get "my" job done.
Now I do that ... do they still pay me what we agreed on with adjustments based on cost of living? yes
To me spending 8 hours or more pretending to work has got to make for a lot longer eight hours.
if I am not getting paid enough I should renegotiate(ask for a raise ) or go find someone who will pay me more.
slacking is stealing and going back on your word.
What he said :aok
Regards,
Sun
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Interesting that this came up. I just had this discussion with a colleague. My colleague (new young physician just out of training) was up set with some para-professionals complaining about how my employer (government job) gives physician bonuses but not bonuses to the para-professionals. She felt that she "deserved" her bonuses and higher pay because she is a doctor and she worked hard to achieve her current state in life. The para-professionals thought that they "deserved" bonuses too for they worked hard to get to their state in life.
I say who can honestly claim they deserve a certain amount. Wages are determined by those who pay them out. Its dictated by need. Supply and demand. If congress could get out of paying bonuses to my colleage and myself then congress wouldn't bat an eye at cutting my income. I don't claim to deserve what I get, just that I made a certain career choice and was lucky enough to be paid a good wage. Each chooses their path through life. Some do not have the ability to become a doctor, pilot, CEO, or what ever other white collar high paying job. But the world needs burger flippers too. And I appreciate there are burger flippers in the world, or as some in the good ole USAF say, shoe clerks (non-rated non-aviators).
Any way I think its an act of self humility to look at youself and ask, do you really "deserve" what you have. Before you ask though, think about those less fortunate. Even the poorest in the U.S.A. are wealthy compared to the poor in some parts of the world. I thank God, I was fortunate enough to be born in a country where I could chose my future.
Anyway to the answer: I don't know if I deserve my income, I don't think much about it. I took a pay cut to do the job I'm doing now because I felt I needed to be a part of something more inportant than myself and because I love what I do. I am motivated to do my job by my desire to do the best I can.
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people are paid just enough to keep them from quiting and they work just hard enough to keep from getting fired. So in the end it evens out.
(edit) unless your a workaholic like me that thinks a high stress 10 hour day is "fun". :D
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My opinion:
It depends, and I've changed my attitude a few times. To a certain extent, my attitude has depended on if I feel obligated to provide a return on investment beyond the simple calculation of my worth and rarity as an employee vs. my pay rate.
When I was in high school, my first job was minimum wage doing janitorial and facility maintenance work at a local recreation club. I was basically paid a wage to do a set of tasks, and although I didn't think as a kid I deserved to get paid any more than min wage, I certainly was not motivated to work any harder than necessary to get the job done well enough to keep my boss from saying I wasn't doing it right. I ended up quitting that job because although I was working pretty hard (I thought), he came down on me for slacking off. Nothing had been invested in me other than the usual risk any employer takes when they hire someone, and as a result I felt obligated no further than to do my assigned tasks "good enough".
My next job was the opposite though. I got a job making around twice min wage in an office environment, and the wage was high enough that I figured I had better be unusually productive to earn such an unusually high salary as a high school student. For me, this was a complete reversal in attitude about work and my wage, and it was entirely based on the amount of pay. Although I felt I was "worth" the higher pay, it was because I was doing a job that not everyone could do so I figured I should also be producing more than everyone else.
Still, when it came time to choose between joining the military or an essentially guaranteed internship through college and a very well paying job after graduation, I chose the military.
Later in life after graduating from the Academy, I wasn't making much money as a Lt. It was enough since I wasn't married, but the other married guys were really struggling especially if they had kids. At that time, I figured I was a bit underpaid for the following reason - in general, people with my abilities, experience, and training, made far more than I did. More than double on average in fact. There were perfectly valid reasons why this was so (mostly payback for the money put into my training), but it's still tough to go to work and do a job that less than 0.1% of the world's population can do, yet get paid what worked out to about $10/hr. What made it worth it of course, was that the job was exactly what I wanted to do with my life. The salary was in fact just a bonus because they were paying me to do what I always wanted to do anyway. In addition, I had signed up for the job in part because I wanted to be part of something bigger than myself. Even if I hadn't gone to pilot training, I would still be doing a job for a greater cause.
The upshot of this was that I was working only to satisfy my personal desires, internal drive, and sense of duty to fulfill the oath of office I'd taken. I didn't feel like I owed anyone anything, because the work I was doing out of pure self-motivation in my opinion outweighed the money that had been expended to secure my services.
Over time however, things shifted again. My conservative estimate is that around $20,000,000 (yea 20 mil) has been spent on my training throughout my career, and I'm getting paid a hell of a lot more now than I used to. My skills, abilities, experience, and training have further reduced the number of people who are able to do my job as well as I can, but my salary clearly matches the rarity of my qualifications. So several years ago, my attitude flipped back from "the salary doesn't really match what I'm doing", to "I better work my butt off so what I give the organization matches the resources poured into keeping me on the roster."
It's an external motivator, and frankly it adds stress to my job. I have an obligation to pay back, to give something tangible back to the organization in order to justify the resources expended on training and retaining me. As odd as that seems, to a certain extent that is a total de-motivator because I'm working to fulfill someone else's expectations, not my own.
So anyhow, that's the random thought that made me start the thread in the first place... the realization that I quit working for myself a few years ago and that this has negatively impacted how I feel about my job. I work harder, but it's because I owe something to someone, not because I particularly want to.
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I earn my salary.
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As soon as your born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
A working class hero is something to be,
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so ****ing crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be,
Keep you doped with religion and sex and tv,
And you think you're so clever and you're classless and free,
But you're still ****ing peasants as far as I can see,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the fool on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be.
A working class hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero, well just follow me...
:D
Mac
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Originally posted by eagl
I work harder, but it's because I owe something to someone, not because I particularly want to.
Dang, eagl, that sounds a lot like indenture.
I'm fortunate to work in a sector that is more like a hobby than a job. I happened to find a vocation that also pays well. It has provided a specific set of skills that companies need and will pay a fair sum to get done. It doesn't feel like I'm entitled to my pay, it's just a nice bonus that comes with what I like to do. The motivation to do better doesn't come from a desire for more $$$, but to be the best that I can be at it.
(If anyone is wondering, I work in Information Security.)
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Total fringed compensation for field-grade officers isn't too shabby these days, is it eagl? I would guess that the average O-5, married with a couple of kids, would need to make about $140,000 in the civilian sector to have the same after-tax lifestyle.
There were times I thought I deserved more money, but hindsight has taught me that I was giving myself more credit than I deserved. There were times I almost went broke starting a business. I look back on it now and remember it as "exciting."
I've always enjoyed the chase. Not the chase for money, but chasing the job, idea, project or dream. The money will follow and reward us for our perserverance. I'm convinced I've made more money in the long run by focusing on the task than I would have made if I had focused on the money.
I know it sounds lofty, even cheesey to cynics, but "Message for Garcia."
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Personally I love my job. It suits me to a "T". I am overpaid. I work long hours because I need more money than what I am paid on a regular workweek. I am not overworked at all. It is not physicaly challenging but can be mentaly challeging at times.
I am motivated by the fact it is the best job I've ever had and I like doing it.
Mark
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Originally posted by eagl
I work harder, but it's because I owe something to someone, not because I particularly want to.
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looks like you work for the millitary? that would explain alot.
You should try to handle your own bussines in the free market,
there, there is only one way -> work harder & feed your family,
satisfy your wife or lose and complain for the rest of your life ;)
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I'm a gigolo...I earn it and deserve it both.
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I was working for a company, doing something I loved to do. They reorganized, looked like I could lose my job due to the headquarters moving to a different city, so I started looking. Found out my salary was far too low for what I was doing. I brought that up to my employer, pointed out they would have to pay a new hire more than they would be paying me if they let me keep my job +10%. They said I could keep my job, but no on the +10%.
A couple months later, I found a similar job at another company. When I told my company I was going to leave, wow, they suddenly found the +10% I had asked for and they originally refused to give.
And I asked them why I should pass up a +24% increase for their +10%? Fools.
Bottom line, if you don't think you are paid enough, prove it like I did. Find something that pays you what you think you are worth (or at least fair market value). If you can, you win. If you can't, then at least you'll know it and quit your bellyaching.;)
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Rolex,
With flight pay and retention bonus, you're close but maybe a little high for your O-5 compensation guesstimate. Without those additions, you're fairly high but still in the same general ballpark.
Moving every few years is a pretty significant financial hit too. The military compensates me for moving expenses, but nothing can compensate for the fact that every time I buy and sell a house 3 years later, I lose a couple of grand and can't benefit from real estate valuation. My first house ever, I bought for $94k, sold for $108k (about break-even after expenses and fees), and today the house is worth around $135, so that's about $41k in equity out of my pocket from that move, plus another few grand spent in closing expenses for my new house after my current move... Ouch. That can't even be written off my taxes.
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
looks like you work for the millitary? that would explain alot.
You should try to handle your own bussines in the free market,
there, there is only one way -> work harder & feed your family,
satisfy your wife or lose and complain for the rest of your life ;)
I did and do. Don't believe the military is without it's pressures also.
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My boss will not fix or replace broken equiptment until the state inspects us and requires the repair or they will shut us down. He has no worker's compensation coverage and always finds a way to get out of paying for OTJ injuries. He pays the absolute bare minimum wage he can get away with (only 1 person makes over $10 an hour). Raises are non-existant and bonuses are rarely paid even if the requirements are met. The only reason I still work there is to keep me occupied and for the health insurance (which I pay 100%, no employer contribution). So no, my salary is not a motivator and I'm paid about $10 an hour less than I would working the same job in Dallas. The upside is I don't have an hour commute to deal with.
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Originally posted by eagl
Rolex,
With flight pay and retention bonus, you're close but maybe a little high for your O-5 compensation guesstimate. Without those additions, you're fairly high but still in the same general ballpark.
Moving every few years is a pretty significant financial hit too. The military compensates me for moving expenses, but nothing can compensate for the fact that every time I buy and sell a house 3 years later, I lose a couple of grand and can't benefit from real estate valuation. My first house ever, I bought for $94k, sold for $108k (about break-even after expenses and fees), and today the house is worth around $135, so that's about $41k in equity out of my pocket from that move, plus another few grand spent in closing expenses for my new house after my current move... Ouch. That can't even be written off my taxes.
Just buy a house everywhere you go, and have some property management firm rent it out and manage it for you when you move. In no time you will have plenty of properties you can't keep track of, plus some decent tax payments to deduct on your 1040. :D
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My last 2 assignments were in the UK and Korea... Not gonna buy overseas.
I'd have kept my last US house except it was a bit of a maintenance problem due to shoddy original build quality, so I sold it to avoid a potential money pit situation while I was overseas. It may have been ok but as one example, the roof design was so bad it was re-roofed 3 times and still leaked due to an overly complex design with too many angles that didn't have enough pitch, allowing ice dams to form in multiple locations.
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eagl I'm having that prob now... roof sux.
I'd rather be in Korea. But the IntARD net connection is bad.
I have a job everyone would love but I feel unhappy.
I work from home... log in to the FAA site.. read emails and wait to be called.
Play with the tools and stuff they gave me, review training films.
My Business Casual clothing is a Bathrobe, I pass two cats commuting to work. Sweet money but I want more in life. Sitting on my arse making $200.00 a day is boring... I feel like I'm backed into a corner.
Wish Haliburtion would have picked me up and sent me to Iraq...
Mac
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You need an outdoor hobby mac :)
Get into a routine... wake up, spend 2-3 hours on professional stuff like those training films, shower/dress and get ready to go out, then get out of the house. Do anything other than sit around.
Radio control airplanes would be a great thing to do... Electric would be easier to quickly tear down and toss into the car if you got a work call, but even gas isn't too bad.
But whatever you do, get out of the house as part of your routine. Do ANYTHING, even if it's just going to a local park or mall to people watch. Buy some sort of mobile computing device so you can "work" from your remote location...
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Good advice Eagl...Thanks.
As soon as all the ice melts I'll do that.
I can't take to much more of Judge Judy anymore. I need air.
Thanx Bud.
Mac
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Hey, if you're getting into RC planes, get something you can fly right from the snow...
http://www.zagi.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1
Its just about indestructable and doesn't need a runway.
I added one to my stable of 'real' planes last month and its a lot of fun.
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I deserve every penny I get and then some.
I've worked alot less and been payed alot more.
What I wouldn't give for a cushy office chair, a hot meal at lunch time, clean clothes and a clean restroom.
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What I find motiviating is being productive. There is a saying I sometimes repeat, "if it were easy, anyone could do it", which is true. However, I am certain many people work harder for their salary.
All things considered, I doubt changing job locations would net a higher (adjusted) salary. Changing careers would be needed for a different salary. More often I find trying to get something done is much more challenging and frustrating, partly because it's not easy and few understand wtf you are doing. Now, if I owned my own business then growing the business would motiviate me.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by john9001
people are paid just enough to keep them from quiting and they work just hard enough to keep from getting fired. So in the end it evens out.
In general this is a pretty accurate discription.
I've found most people are not self motivated nor wanting or willing to do more then they have to.
The best way to motivate people long term is to appeal to their sence of greed
If your an employer. If you want people to work harder. Either pay them for what they do.
Or give them the proverbial carrot to chase and reward them with said carrot consistantly.
Example. I had a guy working with me on a job yesterday whom normally when I have him work for me I pay $10 per hour.
Told him if we could finish the job yesterday I'd pay him an even $100.
End result. He put forth more effort and we had the job done in 6 1/2 hours
and I didnt have to go back by myself today to finish.
Being self employed. I have to be self motivated or I dont eat LOL
This guy is what I call occasional labor. Normally a decent worker for what I pay him. But experience has taught me that even if I paid him $100 for 8 hours right off the bat. I wouldnt get any more out of him then if I only paid him $80
Cracking the whip or browbeating only works short term.
And I find it only leaves everyone aggrivated most of the time.
Its worth an extra couple $ not to have to deal with the aggrivation
And everyones morale stays higher if the people that work for you know that you will consistantly reward extra effort.
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Originally posted by Blooz
I deserve every penny I get and then some.
I've worked alot less and been payed alot more.
What I wouldn't give for a cushy office chair, a hot meal at lunch time, clean clothes and a clean restroom.
I wouldnt mind the clean clothes.
But you can keep the office chair.
Being stuck in an office. And being forced to wear a suit and tie would drive me nuts.
I've actually turned down jobs making more money. Witht eh only reason being I'd have to wear a suit and tie.
I'll dress well. Just dont ask me to wear a tie. I loath ties or anything else around my neck.
And I have yet to see a logical aruement for wearing one.
all that "it makes you look more professional and buinsess like" crap is mere rhetoric
Bout the only reason I can see for wearing a tie is to provide the wearer a convienient way to hang themselves when they completely screw up.
But its not just the tie.
being stuck in an office doing paperwork all day long would make me stir crazy. Not to mention board.
I need to be out and about
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(http://www.saunalahti.fi/latesoft/kuvat/Tunnel.JPG)
Somebody has to do the dirty work (how comforting..)..I deserve every penny i get..:)
We get currently about 300 euros extra per month, because of good progress we have made, surpassed initial expectations. Its so poor compensation, that it wont have much difference on how we work. They promised to double it, but still..Wont complain about it. From the employers perspective, they would be better off giving us material benefits (booze, events etc.) with the same money.
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A good example are the garbage collectors around here.
The city employees get paid by the hour and goof around playing grabass.
The private company employees get a flat rate per route and run. Was talking to two of them who took over a city route that took 8 hours, they did it in 41/2.
shamus
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I am military and don't get paid enough in a sense of what I do each day. With a move from Italy to N.C. and the money I had to pay out of pocket for expenses was nuts. I have one child so I am only allowed a 2 bedroom home, that is a big change from the trhee bedroom I had in Italy for 4 years. So, with all the 'stuff' accumulated over those 4 years does not fit in my smaller home, well I can put it in storage and the military will pay for it, but once it is in storage I can't touch it until I move. So, hopefully I don't forget to take something out. No reimbusment for me to fly home and pick up my car and drive here, just money for my port of entry to NC, when it took me three days to drive here, I get reinburessed for 1 day. Yeah our bills for electricty are payed for and my medical is. When I took leave enroute to my new base I slashed my finger open on some glass and made a nice trip to the ER, civilian. Eight stiches and an hour later I was out of the hospital and on my way home with a superb job done on the stiches, all for $300.00. Now a few years ago I slipped and broke my second vertebra in my neck and was walking around for 4 months like that... yes, walking around. In that time I visted the doctors multiple times, no x-rays nothing were done for 4 months.... great care huh? Now 2 years later I still have some bone spurs floating around in there, nothing is planned to be done. I would rather have fronted the bill and gotten fixed than live with the pain every day and popping pills for it. I work 10 hour days and rarely have a full weekend because of exercise whereing gas mask for 6-8 a day. Been deployed multiple times, been shot at, mortars dropped around my head, IED's going off around me and seeing people die in real life. Ever see a guys head vs. a 50cal.... guess who lost? These are things that guys in the military put up with... everlasting memories with cheap pay. K, rant over.... and just my opinion.
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Originally posted by eagl
snip
So anyhow, that's the random thought that made me start the thread in the first place... the realization that I quit working for myself a few years ago and that this has negatively impacted how I feel about my job. I work harder, but it's because I owe something to someone, not because I particularly want to.
eagl I've had to struggle with that a little over the last decade. During that time I reached burnout with what I had done for 2 decades+ (most of it self-employed) and started down an entirely different career path.
I was at the point that you describe a couple of years ago. I'm still at the same job (well, same company, a couple of promotions down the road) and happy as hell now.
Part of that change involved becoming even more mentally "in debt" to the company (my wife had to suddenly have open heart surgery, the insurance that costs me VERY little as a benny paid 100% plus I took a couple of months off with the full support of my boss, fully paid). Yet, I began to realize that hand-in-hand with the fact I "owe" them is the fact that I really like and respect the company I work for - partly because its HR policies reflect the fact that the company values its people. That means that they feel like they "owe" me. When you have a two-sided relationship like that, its something to be proud of IMO.
Citizens like me appreciate what you do for all of us, sir. I believe your leadership does, as well. I think you can be proud of what you are a part of. Yes, a lot has been invested in you, yes its true that your honor means you must recognize that - but you've invested a lot of yourself and so far as this citizen is concerned you have earned everything you've received and then some.
Find some peace, IMO you're golden :)
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when I was a contractor.. I often got money that was way out of proportion to what I was doing... worked good and bad tho.
Now... if I keep things running smoothly and save the city a million here and there... I pretty much earn my salary.
If you don't do it then someone else will so... it is always a personal thing... it is what you think.
lazs
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I am under paid!
When I hired in 14 years ago I was to take care of 100 computers and no servers. Servers we handled by a vendor.
7 years ago they asked me to take over all the servers and networks. 20 servers in 14 locations.
For taking the job I was to get a $6000 a year raise and a new title.
All I got was the title.
I was going to quit but my wife talked me into staying until our kids were out of school. My youngest graduates this year.
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Nowadays I consider my work, even as an employee not a contractor, as a strictly business relationship. I have skills / abilities that a business can use to make / maintain a product. The cost of me to do a job goes agianst the overhead of the product being supplied. Therefore if I am working I am going to get paid.
My skills have a market value based on supply and demand of the right people and the margin built in to the project. If there are few people and a big margin I will get good money; if there are loads of qualified people and no margin the money will be crap.
The trick is to try to keep yourself in a short supply sector and in a business with good margins.
The pay doesn't motivate me. Keeping myself marketable motivates me i.e. doing a good job and expanding my skills.
Likewise I have zero company loyalty - if the market is paying higher elsewhere and the company won't keep up then it's byebye baby. Companies have zero loyalty to there employees - if the accountants say get rid of you then you are gone - it's a purely business relationship.