Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Wes14 on January 20, 2007, 11:04:15 AM
-
:noid this may have been though of but u know that certain A/c can hold bombs on the wings,isnt it true in r/l that if the bomb was hit by a bullet it would explode,taking the plane with it?.
-
Not necessarily. I don't know about different kinds of bombs, but many require very specific conditions to be met in order to detonate. It's probably even harder to blow up a bomb than to light up a fuel tank.
-
i was thinking under the assumption that most ww2 bombs worked off of impack and if a bullet hit it right it would explode
-
Originally posted by Wes14
i was thinking under the assumption that most ww2 bombs worked off of impack and if a bullet hit it right it would explode
I think they used barometric fuses
-
The odds of a bullet or cannon round actually doing enough damage to a hardend steel bomb case to actually make it explode are about a million to one and that's being generous with the odds.
-
Again, I'm no expert, but I would guess that a bullet - any type of bullet - would be more likely to permanently disable the bomb rather than detonate it. The only way I can see a bullet setting off a bomb is if it came from directly in front and did not penetrate but rather pushed in the pin.
-
if benny is right wouldnt that mean ppl would HO less with planes with bombs :eek: :rofl
-
:D
-C+
-
I don't think that's right. The steel casings of bombs were thin, compared to the thick armor around the pilots, and normal MG round STILL went through the pilot armor! Hell cannon rounds didn't even slow down when going through it. A 50cal or 20mm hit on a bomb would be tough, though, as it would have to hit from an angle sufficient to allow penetration. From dead front or dead back, chances are it woudl be a glancing blow and the round would skid off the curved/sloped surface. However, if one did penetrate I'm sure it would explode, as long as the round was incendiary or explosive.
-
A bomb will not explode if shot. They need to be armed first of all and in WWII it was the vain on the from of them (in bombers) and when it fell it would spin a certain number of revolutions for it to go off. Thus that is why the pins needed to be pulled before the inital drop. The explosive filler won't go off from an API round, they need to be armed first... it is as simple as that. A while back someone posted a photo of a bomber, I think a Lancaster, that got a flak round into its bomb bay. Well, they said it was from the flak round penatrating the bomb that made the bomber explode. What it was is the flak round blowing up inside the plane that took it down, not a flak round penatrating a bomb. And the chances of the perfect angle of the round to penatrate a bomb... maybe a million to one.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
I don't think that's right. The steel casings of bombs were thin, compared to the thick armor around the pilots, ............
Not really. I haven't handled WWII bombs, but the stuff that NATO was putting out in the 60's, 70's, and 80's I *have* handled while in Iraq, and those were not too different than what they were producing in the decades before that.
The casings are pretty thick, and part of the reason is they were made from lower grade metals..... cheap and easy to do in bulk quantities, plus being a heavy, thick, casing helps protect the bomb during transport, long storage, and if it happens to be caught in a bombing raid. Not easily dented from handling.
Plus, by having a strong heavy case around the charge, you actually increase the strength of a charge. Similar to difference to holding a lit firecracker between fingertips, and in your clenched fist..... very different effect when it goes pop.
Two things needed to set off most military grade explosives since WWII.... heat AND shock.... both.... not just one or the other. You can throw Composition C1 through C4 against a wall....OR... you can light it on fire (which is how you made a quick cup of coffee in Vietnam, pinch of C4 lit under your canteen cup). Now, the detonators can be susceptible to either shock or high temperatures, or even electrical current and static charges, but the main component typically needs both heat and shock.
Third, a round entering a plane has already been deformed from it's first impact with the plane.... then to expect a deformed round from penetrating the thick, *curved* casing of a bomb? A one in a million shot.
Theoretically can it happen? Yes. Did it ever happen during WWII? Odds of probability would say also yes, considering all the opportunities seven years of war provided. Was it at all common, or something they worried about? I seriously doubt that. Definitely not something that would happen enough to bother to model into a game.
-
They have a system of destroying shells today. They have a small device that explodes and shoots a very tiny amount of molten metal into the shell casing, burning up the explosives inside.
It's not nearly the full force of the shell had it blown up properly (on impact) but it still kicked that shell around to hell and caused enough damage doing it.
Whether the bomb is armed or not is one thing. It's still a high explosive device. If something gets through the outer shell it will set off the explosives inside. This doesn't mean a 50-foot fireball. But it might mean that the force of the explosives burning off inside the bomb shell rips it off the shackles (and takes half the wing with it) or if it's in a bomb bay it could rocket upward through the backbone of the plane, crippling the bomber or damaging wing supports (leading to a wing, tail, or many other vital parts going POOF).
-
I think folks here are forgetting about UXO's.... Unexploded Ordnance.
Modern planes running at Mach at 30K can drop bombs that fail to explode as they are supposed to, or on impact. Arty shells don't go off all the time either. They will be pretty much intact after they hit.... maybe missing a fin or two, maybe slightly deformed, or a dent in the casing, but otherwise easily identifiable as a bomb. Very tough casings.
Some of the IED's and EFP's in Iraq are being made from ord the *US* dropped it the two Gulf Wars that failed to go off, in addition to what was there from Iraq-Iran War (mostly NATO stock), or what Saddam purchased from Russia, China, and N Korea over the years, and what is coming in over the borders from Syria and Iran today.
Krusty's right about some of the ways to destroy old ord, or UXO's, but the point is that you have to get through that outer casing.... and that is not a very simple thing to do. In the field, we needed to use enough C-4 and det cord to split the case open and set off whatever was inside. Farmers and construction workers STILL dig up live arty rounds in Europe from WW I (that's a one) on occasion as well as WW II. Heavily corroded, but intact, and live.
These things are not soda cans filled with black powder.
-
True, but neither are they garden gnomes :D
-
Originally posted by tedrbr
Farmers and construction workers STILL dig up live arty rounds in Europe from WW I (that's a one) on occasion as well as WW II. Heavily corroded, but intact, and live.
That happens still quite regulary here in Germany. In Cologne for example about 80 times a year.
In my town the last bomb was found 2 weeks ago, a 500lbs HE bomb. The fuse was still intact, so they had to disarm the bomb on site. All people in a radius of 250m around the site had to be evacuated.
-
IIRC of a 500 kg bomb the casing roughly weights about half and the explosive filler the other half.
AFAIK it is unprobable that a round penetrating a bomb would cause it to go off unless it hits the primer and manages to set it to go off. The primer needs to have a certain burn speed to make the filler go off and I'm not sure if the common HE filler could do it if it was placed in unoptimal manner. It probably could but such a round would not penetrate the surface of the bomb because the skin of the a/c would already set it to go off, and the angles are usually very oblique in case it did not go off by penetrating the skinning of the a/c. The incendiary would probably do nothing -again unless it manages to hit the primer.
The bomb itself is usually very safe to handle -as was said you can drop is from as high as you like and it would not explode -so an AP round hitting a bomb filler simply does not have enough concentrated energy (and energy loss) to initiate the burn process. Only the primer charge makes it dangerous, but I guess it depends of the filler and its chemical properties. Don't know much about those...
So I think the possibility is there but it is very very small.
-C+
-
Charge, you ever try to pound a nail through the bottom of a peanut butter jar? One of the plastic ones?
Just a few smacks with a hammer and it's red hot from the energy. The bullet itself would heat up like a mofo on the way through the outer casing. It would be red hot and literally set fire to the filler. I'm not talking full explosion, but burning explosives STILL exert a lot of force. Enough to rip a plane's wing off (rip it off, not blow it off).
Also consider that the standard 5.56mm round from an M4 rifle can punch through a 1/4 plate of STEEL so easily you can see spiral patterns out the back where it exits and where the metal literally folds back over itself. 5.56 is about a .20 caliber round (rounded off), so a 30cal would be a stronger round. Forget about 50cal. 50cal can go through half an inch of solid steel and keep going out the other side. Forget about 20mms. They've been known to fly through the tail of an airplane, through the pilot armor, through the armored seat, through the PILOT, and out the front of the plane somewhere (there were reports of these over the Channel).
I don't think there's any problem with bullets penetrating. As long as the angle is right. Like a shell off the side of a tank, if the angle is flat it'll go in.
I don't think there's any problem with igniting the explosives inside the bomb shell. It's very possible, and is in fact one way of ord disposal today. NOT to be confused with the primer blowing the bomb up, this is like a lower level of explosion, and the shell does not fragment, but it rips around hard enough to seriously damage any structure it's bolted to. [EDIT: The one I saw a film of wasn't bolted but a 100+ pound arty shell jumped several feet in the air and bounced around like a fire hose gone wild very briefly. I'd imagine anything it was bolted to would be stressed to the point of breaking]
I think it would be an interesting feature, someday. I don't think HTC will get to it soon, though.
-
Wes, the majority of WW2 ordinance contained TNT or a mixture of TNT and another stable explosive (to conserve TNT due to its high war time demand). TNT is only reliably detonated with another explosive.
Army tests showed that TNT struck by a bullet would only detonate 4% of the time, and that when dropped in a bomb casing without a primer from 4,000 ft on to concrete, it would only detonate 8% of the time.
-
but my idea isnt a all-the-time idea..its just when bombs get shot the right way they might "explode"
heck this might add a humorous ending to some HO'ing attemps by ppl :D
-
Originally posted by Wes14
but my idea isnt a all-the-time idea..its just when bombs get shot the right way they might "explode"
heck this might add a humorous ending to some HO'ing attemps by ppl :D
What if HT changes code, so that in about 4% of all cases the bombs will explode (and take the attacker with them)?
Suddenly the BBS will be full of people claiming the bombs to be exploding almost all of the time, "HT has stop this BS" and so on... :D
-
Originally posted by Lusche
What if HT changes code, so that in about 4% of all cases the bombs will explode (and take the attacker with them)?
Suddenly the BBS will be full of people claiming the bombs to be exploding almost all of the time, "HT has stop this BS" and so on... :D
then if i was HT,i would tell them not to HO with bombs on their plane wings:D
or u may go BOOM...
-
Could maybe model damage to the release mechanism, i.e. a round has jammed/damaged it.
That way you drop your bomb and nothing happens, it's still there.
-
4 percent chance per round, eh?
I can imagine an incredible increase in using Hurri1 as a buff killer... :D
Question: What WW2 era bomber had armoured bomb-bay?
-C+
-
Id give it much much less than 4% on a moving target being fired at from a moving gun platform.
Did you all see myth-busters try to shoot through both scope lenses into the eye of the 'enemy sniper'? They couldn't do it, even at point blank range. The front lense curved enough to change the trajectory of the bullet. Point being that under conditions of both the target and shooter moving it would be quite a lucky shot to hit at a right angle and penetrate the casing into the ordinance canister. If you get that lucky, then it's 4% of those that might do something.
-
shoot the wing off and bomb is gone :)
-
Originally posted by Murdr
Id give it much much less than 4% on a moving target being fired at from a moving gun platform.
Did you all see myth-busters try to shoot through both scope lenses into the eye of the 'enemy sniper'? They couldn't do it, even at point blank range. The front lense curved enough to change the trajectory of the bullet. Point being that under conditions of both the target and shooter moving it would be quite a lucky shot to hit at a right angle and penetrate the casing into the ordinance canister. If you get that lucky, then it's 4% of those that might do something.
Like Murdr said... just a small curve will throw off the trajectory of any round. Let alone bombs won't just go off if they are shot... they have to be armed!!! :rolleyes: Man I wish people would stop posting on this subject... :furious
-
Originally posted by Sketch
Like Murdr said... just a small curve will throw off the trajectory of any round. Let alone bombs won't just go off if they are shot... they have to be armed!!! :rolleyes: Man I wish people would stop posting on this subject... :furious
Okay..new idea..hmm
cant think of one:confused:
-
Wait i got one.. u know how if u fly low wnought when u drop a bomb it falls tru the ground and no boom? y not add the boom (if its armed):rolleyes: :D ;)
-
"Okay..new idea..hmm
cant think of one"
No probs Wes. It's good to ask these questions so people can educate each other and correct possible misconceptions.
I think this thread has offered folks a more realistic view of what way the bombs actually are dangerous and some problems of aerial gunnery.
:aok
-C+
-
Originally posted by Wes14
Wait i got one.. u know how if u fly low wnought when u drop a bomb it falls tru the ground and no boom? y not add the boom (if its armed):rolleyes: :D ;)
If the vain does not turn enough it won't go off clown. Do you know when a bomb is even armed? Do some research or better yet work with them for a living.... :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Charge
"Okay..new idea..hmm
cant think of one"
No probs Wes. It's good to ask these questions so people can educate each other and correct possible misconceptions.
I think this thread has offered folks a more realistic view of what way the bombs actually are dangerous and some problems of aerial gunnery.
:aok
-C+
Good point Charge... :aok
-
bombs and the fact that 163 wheels fall through the ground.....i dont think they did that in RL....maybe some better coding?