Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Wizer on January 22, 2007, 07:11:37 AM
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Is anybody in the Aces High Community using Vista? If so, how do you rate it's performance when compared to Windows? Also, was Aces High negatively or positively affected? Has anybody read any evaluations on the performance of Vista?
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I wont even think of using Vista until they come out with service pack 2 at least. It'll take Microsoft that long to figure out the worse bugs and create a fix for them. In a couple of years I'll think about it.
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Why punish yourself. Give it a year or soo.
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All I've heard is "resource hog." As in, does the same thing XP does, with a bit more glitz and A LOT more system demands.
Doesnt sound like a recipe I'll ever really like. I don't plan to use it until they pry XP from my cold, dead hands.
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Originally posted by Simaril
All I've heard is "resource hog." As in, does the same thing XP does, with a bit more glitz and A LOT more system demands.
Doesnt sound like a recipe I'll ever really like. I don't plan to use it until they pry XP from my cold, dead hands.
Ditto .
Vista is teh suck.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Simaril
I don't plan to use it until they pry XP from my cold, dead hands.
I said the same thing about DOS 6.2 :lol
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:lol
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I can't see why you would untill two things happen.
1) They release the direct 3d ten graphics cards.
2) You find a game that will take advantage of the directX ten graphics.
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Originally posted by Coshy
I said the same thing about DOS 6.2 :lol
Yup, and it took M$ until XP to get a Widoze that actually delivered on what they promised for Widoze 95. I too will keep XP until I dont have any other choice.
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With Vista your computer is owned by RIAA/MPAA instead of you. They choose what you view, when you view and how you view. They choose which hardware drivers are legit. They choose therefor what hardware you can or cannot use with Vista. They can disable the functions of your hardware if they choose to do so, remotely.
Just for a couple reasons why not to get Vista.
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I've used Vista RC2 for awhile since I'm going to need to know it on the job. It's installed on a machine that I don't use day to day and definitely not here. It is a terrible resource hog but it looks pretty! For most users and especially gamers there is absolutely no reason to upgrade to Vista any time soon. Right now there are more reasons NOT to upgrade to Vista. If you do you need to have some pretty new hardware and lots of memory if you want any kind of performance from your box.
Skuzzy - any hope for Linux support? :D I know, just asking...
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MrRipley is right. Those "features" are lunacy.
For those who aren't afraid to read a bit; this is VERY interesting:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
I usually look forward to new things, even MS ones, this time I hope they die a horrible corporate death... (we won't be that lucky though)
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I don't like new things :noid
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I'll use XP for as long as I can. When I can't use XP any more, I may switch over to Mac rather than go to Vista.
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You honestly think that the DRM and other intrusiveness will not be part of the Mac operating system when you get around to switching?
Not bashing apple, this is coming from a Macintel Pro with bootcamp running.
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I've been badmouthing Vista as it exists now too. But I always have to remember when XP was rolling out. Same kinda gloom and doom talk. "I'll hold on to '98 for as long as I can and then switch to xyz only when I'm forced to", or "its the worst OS ever", etc.,etc., etc. Few people have to switch right now and for everyone else why switch right now? Just like XP, let the smoke clear.
I recently installed XP on what was a brand new box only eight years ago. It hardly even runs. It came with 98 installed. Eight years from now we'll probably be recalling those old outdated boxes we ran with XP on 'em. Im not trying to say that Vista is as big an improvement over XP as XP was over 98 - just that all the gloom and doom sounds real familiar five+ years after XP premiered.
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You're wrong. Vista takes DRM to a whole new level and it oppresses consumer rights. When XP came it was relatively open with tightening DRM schemes with every mediaplayer update.
Mediaplayer 10 and upwards prevented users from backing up their media licenses i.e. limiting play to a single computer / lose money and media if harddrive breaks. That was the first step, now Vista takes it to the next level.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You're wrong. Vista takes DRM to a whole new level and it oppresses consumer rights. When XP came it was relatively open with tightening DRM schemes with every mediaplayer update.
Mediaplayer 10 and upwards prevented users from backing up their media licenses i.e. limiting play to a single computer / lose money and media if harddrive breaks. That was the first step, now Vista takes it to the next level.
the later version of MP 9 has the same bs in it ... it will lock you out of music if its not licensed and alot of other abtrusive stuff ... I have the earlier version of MP 9 befor that bs was added ...i'll host it up if anyone wants it .
My XP pc freaks out with music ive coped to it from cd to play in the late version of mp9 ...talk about stupid .
As for Vista .... I still havent gotten the right drivers in the 64 bit ver. to make anything work correctly in the game world ... the 32 bit ver. works but darn its slow ... even worse with a second harddrive connected .
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Originally posted by Irwink!
I've been badmouthing Vista as it exists now too. But I always have to remember when XP was rolling out. Same kinda gloom and doom talk. "I'll hold on to '98 for as long as I can and then switch to xyz only when I'm forced to", or "its the worst OS ever", etc.,etc., etc. Few people have to switch right now and for everyone else why switch right now? Just like XP, let the smoke clear.
Because this is not doom and gloom talk. It is real and well documented. Vista is a bloated pig. That is real as well.
On top of it all, Vista does absolutely nothing for the consumer except take more control of your computer away from you. That is a fact.
You have no idea how many things you will not be able to do with Vista. that you can do with XP. That's called a giant step backwards.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You're wrong. Vista takes DRM to a whole new level and it oppresses consumer rights. When XP came it was relatively open with tightening DRM schemes with every mediaplayer update.
Mediaplayer 10 and upwards prevented users from backing up their media licenses i.e. limiting play to a single computer / lose money and media if harddrive breaks. That was the first step, now Vista takes it to the next level.
Wrong about what? That all the gloom and doom sounds familiar? It all sounds very familiar to me. Did I tell you that Vista was cool? Did I tell you it was better? Did I get into the internals of Vista and tell you that any part of it was better or worse? I advised to let the smoke clear. After the smoke clears you may go out and buy a Mac, you may run XP for the next 20 years, 5 years from now you might be running an OS that Google produced. Who knows? Get a grip. I'm pretty sure the sky is NOT falling.
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No, because it's not gloom and doom talk. That's where you're wrong. It can't be compared to the times XP was introduced.
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Irwink, would you bend over and take anything just because you know the sun will rise tomorrow?
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I see what Iriwink is trying to say & he is right about the fact that all the "ooh XP is the devil" talk was abundant. I knew people that said they wouldn't switch to XP & were still running 98-SE the last time I talked to them.
BUT (notice the big but); I completely agree with what Skuzzy & Ripley are saying about Vista, everything I have read from testers echoes what they are saying, or vice versa.
It's a bloated resource hog that is going to try to limit what you do with your PC whether you like it or not. Even Microsoft doesn't deny that all the bells & whistles aren't going to do anything but make it look more appealing to the eye & it will devour two gigs of ram doing it; that means a minimum of four gigs to do anything other than look at your desktop & surf.
Then you have all that ani-piracy crap; I have yet to see anyone address what Vista is going to do when you introduce self created content. How is it going to deal with video or music you made & put on it? It won't be digitally signed & have the stamp of approval from uncle Bill & the recording industry if it's original content. I'm not saying it will have a problem, but I can see where it might & haven't heard that area addressed at all by anyone. (It may have been & I just haven't seen it yet)
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Originally posted by jodgi
MrRipley is right. Those "features" are lunacy.
For those who aren't afraid to read a bit; this is VERY interesting:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
I usually look forward to new things, even MS ones, this time I hope they die a horrible corporate death... (we won't be that lucky though)
Has anybody else read this? The guy's obviously biased in his choice of words, or perhaps "frustrated at the BS logic MS uses" would be a better way of putting it, but the info he presents is fairly good, despite his interjections here and there.
Basically Vista cripples your video and sound output. I don't mean JUST by eating up cycles to encrypt its own PCI bus in real time but literally making high-quality sounds fuzzy, and downgrading high-quality video or (in cases) displaying nothing at all. All on purpose, mind you.
He makes a comment in there, about how at one time intermittent sound fuzziness fading in and out depending on what you were playing was once a sign to take your hardware back to the store for a refund or exchange, but now it means the drivers are working properly.
I don't think most folks realize how FUBAR vista really is, on the inside.
P.S. long read
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Originally posted by Coshy
I said the same thing about DOS 6.2 :lol
Could DOS 6.2 lock you out of your legit ripped music and movies like VISTA?
Regards,
Sun
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It's not just MS....
MS is designing the DRM system so that, if you want to get a liscense to produce content or hardware, you need 3 Hollywood movie studios to sign off on it, basically giving Hollywood movie corporations control of what CD-ROM, sound card, NIC, video card, or monitors are made for the next generation.
As we all know, Hollywood always sticks to the best of the best for all concerned, right?
Right?
(*crickets*)
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Then you have all that ani-piracy crap; I have yet to see anyone address what Vista is going to do when you introduce self created content. How is it going to deal with video or music you made & put on it? It won't be digitally signed & have the stamp of approval from uncle Bill & the recording industry if it's original content. I'm not saying it will have a problem, but I can see where it might & haven't heard that area addressed at all by anyone. (It may have been & I just haven't seen it yet)
Don't bother buying an HD camcorder if you plan on using Vista. You will only be able to edit the content in SD (standard defiantion) mode.
A lot of this stuff in Vista will not rear its ugly head until you try to do anything HD related. Then it will hit you up side the head like a baseball bat.
And at that particulat point in time, you will be beating your head against the wall for tossing out XP.
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My wife & daughters are all about photography, video & music. From everything I've read, I'll be hanging onto XP until they pry it from my cold dead hands.:aok
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But Brenjen, think of all the excuses you just gave up on to buy new hardware so you could run the same programs 10 to 15 percent slower than before!!!!
And think of how funny it would be if you Wife could not do her editing and making of movies. Wouldn't that just be too funny?
:D
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<--- Pictures Skuzzy buying and hording thousands of OEM boxes of XP for future Black Market get rich scheme :lol
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
But Brenjen, think of all the excuses you just gave up on to buy new hardware so you could run the same programs 10 to 15 percent slower than before!!!!
And think of how funny it would be if you Wife could not do her editing and making of movies. Wouldn't that just be too funny?
:D
No, not really. It might be to someone out in this big mean world, but I have to live with her.
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Originally posted by Max
<--- Pictures Skuzzy buying and hording thousands of OEM boxes of XP for future Black Market get rich scheme :lol
I'm seriously thinking of doing this myself. I just can't afford it. I have a copy of XP Pro that I've been using for a long long time. I'd like a copy of XP Pro Corporate (no checks every time you change hardware!), but I fear it's going to be yanked off the shelves the second Vista is out.
I wouldn't be surprised if MS "recalls it" or has employees go around and buy up all their own copies. With anything else around, NObody is going to use Vista. They know this, and will ensure NOTHING else is around, shortly after Vista comes out.
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I'm just going to install my copy of xp home on the wife & kids pc. It might require me to call microslave but it'll be worth it. Both our pc's will be vista ready if vista gets restructured or if they come out with a version I can live with, but it doesn't seem likely.
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Here is something interesting. NVidia's new Vista driver only has support for the 6000 series and newer video cards. 5000 series and older NVidia cards are not supported in this next driver.
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I read about a small silver lining today. MS had announced that support for XP Home would end two years from now, but has relented and will continue support for as long as XP Pro, which I hear is seven years from now.
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2 simple questions
1. Will AH run on Vista (I have a new computer otw with it installed)
2. Will my file sharing downloads be in jepordy?
The new system is configured
Intel Core 2 Duo Quad processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 8MB cache)
1024MB PC5300 dual-channel DDR2 667MHz SDRAM (2-512MB modules) 1
NVIDIA GeForce 7950GT 512MB GDDR3 Dual DVI - Dual Link w/HDCP & TV-Out
Now that you all have scared me, I'm wondering if I can unistall it and put XP pro on it It's hard enough to get to the hard dive with XP
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Here is something interesting. NVidia's new Vista driver only has support for the 6000 series and newer video cards. 5000 series and older NVidia cards are not supported in this next driver.
And therein lies the problem. Let's just hope that M$ debuggs Vista before we're all forced off the edge of the cliff. :cry
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You're wrong. Vista takes DRM to a whole new level and it oppresses consumer rights.
Hehehe... this one makes me laugh.
Write a letter to the folks that created bittorent and say thanks. Maybe you could ask them to forward it to the 100 million people that use it to steal software/movies/songs every day.
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That's just it. Those aren't bugs; that's intentional.
And yes, your file sharing will be in jeopardy with Vista unless the content is digitally signed & licensed. Anything ripped is not going to work from what I have read; windows media player will stop the content from playing & you'll get that licensing window pop-up. I don't know how that will effect third party programs like MusicMatch though. I suppose Vista will just insert itself into the picture & shut it down too.
I do not own Vista & I haven't beta tested it. I almost did when MS was offering free beta downloads but I heard it was causing problems when people tried to take it off & go back to XP, so pretty much everything I'm saying is just repeating what I have read elsewhere.
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I guess I best call them ASAP and switch the OS. So, if I have music I ripped from my own real CD's that I put on my IPOD, I can't use that music anymore with Vista since I didn't buy the music online? I'm talking I put most of my 90's CD's on my computer. Those can't digitally signed can they? I already refuse to use WMP cause it wants to do everything in WMA format.
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Wow, doing some research on Vista at PCmag. Skuzzy is 100% correct, I'm not touching Vista. When XP no longer works, I'll switch to Linux. It may look cool, but Microsoft is again positioning itself to control everything from Internet security to providing audio and video content. I smell more lawsuits coming. Microsoft doesn't have the right to own and control the world. Well, I guess I have 4 years of XP for I have to do something. Will AH work in a linux enviorment?
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Bobby, you have other reasons to not get Vista with that computer. NVidia has yet to release a non-beta driver for Vista and is not slated to until the end of January.
I can tell you right now, the current NVidia driver in Vista will not run Aces High II, nor many other games as well.
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MiniD, while I have never stolen or mis-appropriated any content, I would be suffering what MS has done in Vista. Example: Try making a copy of any HD content with Vista, even if you own it. You can't, if the manufacturer of the media decides they do not want you to be able to make a copy.
Even Bill Gates has gone on record that DRM has gotten way to entrenched in the operating system.
The sad thing is, all the things they are doing will not prevent piracy. It will stop the legitimate user from doing something as simply as making a backup. In short, the end user pays the price.
What is getting ready to happen to the consumer who knows nothing about computers is going to be agonizing to watch. And those who know how to run thier computer will find Vista to be excruciatingly painful to use.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Hehehe... this one makes me laugh.
Write a letter to the folks that created bittorent and say thanks. Maybe you could ask them to forward it to the 100 million people that use it to steal software/movies/songs every day.
You must be joking. The media industry has brought this to themselves with price cartels and refusal to adopt modern distribution methods. Futhermore they constantly seek for ways to rip consumers off (such as limiting a purchased song to only one player, forcing you to purchase the same damn song again every time you want to change players).
Don't get me even started. Without bittorrent and the likes, we'd already see DRM locked players everywhere and cartel pricing $2 per downloaded song / for one machine / for one user / no option to backup.
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I'll have Vista in a few days to evaluate for work... I have high hopes...but also go in a veteran and unfortunate "technical supporter" of every Windows since 3.11...and the fuzzy glow of being a hardcore OSX user at work. :)
So my high hopes minus my practical knowledge...equals...uh oh...cannot divide by zero.
(Posted from my Macbook Pro)
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If you guys take the Vista plunge .... I suggest you get a second hard drive ,and use that as for its impossiable to go back without a full reformat ,,, also there isnt any ATI drivers out for the 64 bit that work correctly in most games . even my new x1950xtx doesnt have correct working drivers for vista. :(
we can still force the older drivers but even they dont work correctly.
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prob going to use XP as long as i can, before switching to some user friendly and gamer friendly linux.... :(
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
If you guys take the Vista plunge .... I suggest you get a second hard drive
My thoughts exactly. Gonna dig out a spare drive I have and see how it goes..what works what doesn't etc.
It is amazing to me how I can run Windows XP and all it's apps on a Mac in OSX with Parallels...yet I might not be able to run XP apps in Vista. Bizzaroworld.
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i was thinking of updating to vista,but from "listining" to ualls talk Vista apperantly uses a ton of resources,in which my pc doesnt seem to have much of:furious,and the fact 99% of the stuff on my pc probably wont work with Vista:furious :furious
annnd i dont think AH supports vista,:confused: do they?
XP(for now)::aok
Vista (atleast for me):no thanks
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
MiniD, while I have never stolen or mis-appropriated any content, I would be suffering what MS has done in Vista. Example: Try making a copy of any HD content with Vista, even if you own it. You can't, if the manufacturer of the media decides they do not want you to be able to make a copy.
You're preaching to the choir. I'm saying that the current level of piracy on the internet is more than sufficient to justify crippling software to battle it. It's not your fault, it's not any one person's fault, but it is the result of several hundred million peoples' indifference.
Orignally posted by MrRipply
You must be joking. The media industry has brought this to themselves... blah blah blah
Rhetoric is rhetoric no matter who is spewing it. Stealing is stealing no matter who is doing it. Using one to justify the other is why vista is going to be a flaming POS. It's amazing how much you can justify while accusing others of misdoings.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Rhetoric is rhetoric no matter who is spewing it. Stealing is stealing no matter who is doing it. Using one to justify the other is why vista is going to be a flaming POS. It's amazing how much you can justify while accusing others of misdoings.
Stealing? The media industry is taking or HAS taken the users fair use rights away. That's a violation of every persons rights to enjoy music in the way and in the moment they desire to do - with legally purchased media.
They say you don't own the media or the songs on it - that you purchased only a right to use it. Yet they fail to provide you with a working copy of the said media and songs if they get damaged, you're forced to pay the license fee again.
They say you bought a license to privately use the song - yet they prohibit you from using it in computer hardware based players such as many car cd players, high-end home cd players etc.
You bought a license to privately use the song - yet they disable you from using your legally owned, megaexpensive high-end audio gear because s/pdif does not have copyprotection and it's the only digital audio transfer standard available.
You bought a license to privately use a movie - yet you can't play it in your megaexpensive HDTV device because it doesnt support hdcp but plays composite video without problems.
That's just the icing on the cake. They want to take away your right to record tv programming at your home for later viewing. They want to force you to watch ever ad that comes on tv, disabling ad skipping functionality.
They want to ****en own you and tell you how to use your money, hardware and time. I say **** them and their products. I'm not paying once cent for the crap ever again.
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And that is the crux of the DRM problem.
In addressing the "problem" created by certain people stealing copyrighted material, and a much smaller subset consisting of those who are profiting from stealing and re-selling this material, the various big corporations have convinced congress to pass legislation that steals fair use rights from EVERYONE except the thiefs who are able to bypass the DRM, and those people who are willing to break the law to exercise their legal fair use rights.
This fails every test of ethical business standards around, according to my MBA ethics course. There are no possible arguments that can be made to justify the current DRM schemes and laws from an ethical standpoint, for the simple reason that the laws and schemes are not effective in doing anything but remove legitimate fair use rights. Not only that, bypassing DRM schemes in order to exercise fair use rights has become illegal.
This is unethical in the extreme, and it has nothing to do with justifying corporate profits or trying to justify intellectual property theft. Simply put, in an ineffective attempt to combat the illegal activities of some people, the fair use rights of everyone have been taken away and a simple attempt to exercise lawful fair use rights is itself illegal. That is flatly unethical.
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When I experienced the problems I was having with Win XPx64 a year ago, I installed a second hard drive, put 32 bit XP on it, and made my machine a dual boot system and waited for improvements to the 64 bit version (and drivers that would work). Some of those improvements have not come yet, and I hate XP64's crankiness.
I am hanging on to 32 bit Windows Home for a long, long time. I got about 8 years out of Win 98. Here's hoping ...
Y'know, I am beginning to lose my faith in an unregulated free market system. :furious
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Bill has some interesting thoughts (http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/12/14/bill-gates-on-the-future-of-drm/) on DRM.
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He's just saying they don't have it "right" yet.... you notice that they're not controlling it, they're reacting to it. When Gates controls it and other folks reacts, I'm pretty sure he'll sit back with a big fat grin and say "we got it juuuuust right this time!"
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There is no such thing as "ethical buisness standards" as if it were some kind of guidebook.
I'm not defending Microsoft, nor am I blaming software piracy. I am saying you could see a cause and effect rising from this from a mile away. Piracy is the grandest defense on the face of the earth. You can cite instances of theft as if they were direct losses of revenue. It does not matter that a person would not have bought a product if given the choice, it only matters that they decided to steal it. The RIAA can throw massive numbers in front of congress and get pretty much anything signed.
Of course, the poor innocent victim (the software/copyright pirate) will insist that the quality and cost of a product justifies stealing it. Somehow, bands have gotten so bad that their music should only be stolen. CD prices have gotten so high that they should only be stolen. There are no other options.
The two sides of the coin are compimentary. You can't have one without the other. Blame corporations all you want, just don't pretend there isn't a large population of computer users that are equally responsible.
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But I'm not a pirate, and my fair use rights have been infringed upon. Where is my legal recourse? Why do you blame me for the acts of the pirates, and say that the reduction in my rights (as legally defined in hundreds of years of precedent in copyright cases) is somehow justified in any way?
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Do you think speed limits are in place because of you are incapable of driving faster?
The actions of people that abuse systems always drive the creation of laws that impact people who don't. This is not corperate policy... this is human nature.
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I'm afraid I'm with Ripley on this one. I'll add this; piracy is not the reason this is being done as I see it, it's only a means to an end for the entertainment industry as a whole.
As I see it they over-spent trying to molly coddle the "talent" & missed the bus on internet sales & per title pricing.
They were happy producing a 10 cent CD & charging anywhere from $15 to over $100 for their product; when it finally dawned on them that single title pricing & internet sales were the wave of the future & sales at brick & mortar stores were going to continue to slip away they were already in a bad way & decided to blame piracy for the loss of revenue instead of their own short sightedness.
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Stop nobilizing things.
Piracy is not the reason, it is the justification. If you cannot see this, you are as blind as you're accusing the RIAA of being.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Stop nobilizing things.
Piracy is not the reason, it is the justification. If you cannot see this, you are as blind as you're accusing the RIAA of being.
Are you referring to me? If so I suggest you read what I said instead of just going off on a tangent.
Read this & then read what you said right after:
"I'll add this; piracy is not the reason this is being done as I see it, it's only a means to an end for the entertainment industry as a whole."
Talk about blind; that's the pot calling the kettle black don't you think.
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It's not a tangent mr "let me explain how screwed up the RIAA is".
Stop blaming the record companies for being too shortsighted to nip piracy in the bud by drastically dropping prices or figuring out a way to do buisness prior to Vista. Any content put out on the web, even for a price, is pirated. How long did it take for Adobe's book sale system to be hacked enabling "backing up" of files? How long will it take for anything?
Don't blame the record industry for not being able to control these things in a manner that is proffitable for them while saying that vista is over bearing and uncalled for.
Surely you see how one begets the other?
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It is a tangent when you repeat exactly word for word what I said while trying to argue a counter point; I'd say it goes so far as to be babbling :lol
You say stop "nobilizing things"...? What exactly is that anyway & how was what I said fitting into it?
You stop twisting what I said into something I didn't & I'll stop "nobilizing" whatever that means.
"Any content put out on the web, even for a price, is pirated."
And that statement is just plain out flat not true.
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The thing is Mini D, usually when a company produces a product that costs $.10 to produce and they want to raise the sales numbers, guess what they do?
That's right, they lower the sales price. When one company lowers the sales price, the others respond by lowering even more or giving extra value with the purchase.
That's called free enterprise and competition. Now compare this to record industry and you'll see a pattern forming.
Lower sales numbers := law suits, rise in product price and run for oppressive legislation.
Record sales numbers := law suits, rise in product price and run for oppressive legilsation.
i.e. they want to force everyone to use their products for insane prices, PRICE FIXING AND CARTEL!
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It actually only costs 5 cents to make a CD. Then there's a 5 cent royalty to Sony (or whomever) the patent holder.
FYI: Speed limits aren't there because people speed. They regulate accidents from speeding, they prevent premature wear and tear on the roads themselves (which are only designed to withstand certain sustained speeds, believe it or not), and are only a maximum upper limit. You can drive slower through a wide range of other speeds.
With Vista, you have no option. Your rights to your posessions are disabled. You can no longer do what you want/need to with your own files. This is an infringement on personal choice (thus personal freedom).
Imagine if MS bought out all the TV transmitters in North America, and then said that folks are ignoring all other programming when football is on. Well, the other programs are supported by a long list of VERY rich companies that have put out commercials that are not being seen. They're upset. So they contact MS and have MS disable all high-quality TV feeds. But that's not enough. Now they're down-grading the existing levels by adding static to the picture intentionally, and then they're screwing with the sound so the commentator cuts in and out. On top of that they've added a code that spreads, like a virus, to all VCRs on the planet. Now you cannot watch your old tapes of old games. Tivos get the same virus, only it erases all football content.
All because some rich companies with money out their arses put up a fuss. I'm all for a fight against piracy, but 99% of all profitable piracy is in Hong Kong and Asia. So all Hollywood has to do is stop sending fresh, new, copies of their latest films to Asia. There, problem solved. But noooOOooo... They go and dictate what we can and cannot watch (regardless of whether it's OURS or not!) on our own time, in our OWN house, on our own computers. What the hell has that got to do with piracy?
This is pure bullflop and I think it's pretty obvious. The only problem is that there's a lot of folks ignorant to the issue out there. By the time Vista is debunked as trash, 50% of American households will have it just because "it's new!"
EDIT: P.S. Vista is out this Tuesday according to the paper ads (*shudder*)
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Originally posted by Bobby
2 simple questions
1. Will AH run on Vista (I have a new computer otw with it installed)
Yes. I have Vista ultimate installed and AH runs fine.
What coms to Vista itself, it seems quite fine and stable OS. It is easy to install and use. So far I have found all necessary drivers for it.
What comes to DRM problem, I agree everyones concern. But.. it is not problem for me because I dont use computer for movie and music purposes.
I may buy music from internet but I usually burn it to disc and it works fine. I may also buy CDs from store and I rip them, that works too.
And movies, I buy DVDs....
Ripley, finally vidcard was the problem , it was DOA. :D
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Originally posted by Mini D
It's not a tangent mr "let me explain how screwed up the RIAA is".
Stop blaming the record companies for being too shortsighted to nip piracy in the bud by drastically dropping prices or figuring out a way to do buisness prior to Vista. Any content put out on the web, even for a price, is pirated. How long did it take for Adobe's book sale system to be hacked enabling "backing up" of files? How long will it take for anything?
Don't blame the record industry for not being able to control these things in a manner that is proffitable for them while saying that vista is over bearing and uncalled for.
Surely you see how one begets the other?
Mini D you do realize that the 'piracy' numbers fed to us include back door sales from their factories? And that those sales have far more of an impact on their profits than p2p apps? (please note at this point I've never used p2p file sharing and never will).
DRM is not about stopping piracy. It is about control. Vista's DRM is the first step to an extremely restrictive license model. Back on 2005 the music/movie industry were talking about how they want to limit the number of viewings on a DVD. ie you buy a DVD and you get to watch in 10 times then it expires. Or even an expiry date (watch it by 10/10/07 then the DVD won't play anymore).
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News flash!
Last weekend they tried a nation wide discount on cd's here. Sales numbers went radically up immediately and there were even lines at the shops which have been very quiet lately.
Gee who'd have thunk it? :huh
So instead of whining about p2p and suing people they tried following the market rules and whaddaya know, sales numbers rocketed immediately and everyone profited. Consumers got more music for less and content providers sold more and profited more.
The stagnant or declining sales numbers is nothing but a general consumers protest against overpricing caused by cartel. This is a fact.
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It's not as if they pay the artists anything from the profits on CDs, so the labels are getting 100% profit. If they STOP getting profit they can lower prices and get profit coming in again. N is good. X is bad. 80% of N is better than X, if N=full price and X=no sales.
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Well I don't know Krusty, even if they don't pay the artist a royalty on every CD sold, they still pay them an unreal amount of money to sign with their label & they are molly coddled. Concerts & CD sales is where they get the cash to pay them. So in a way they are paying them with CD sales.
The talent's price tag is the reason everything is so high; I'm sure we all remember the infamous hotel destructions, green M&M's & those concert riders you can read online for different pampered high priced singers. All that garbage costs a lot of money, they mismanage on a huge scale & they blame piracy for the decline. P2P piracy is a minor thing even if the millions of songs they claim are stolen each year really are stolen. Most people get crap songs that aren't available on CD, one here & one there.
I mean really, who would buy a four CD set from K-tel just to hear one crappy song from Marty Balin?? A download is the only logical choice & the music industry didn't provide that option until recently & they still want to charge you $15 for one song. Until they crack down on cassette decks & radio broadcasts they can suck a green one. (imo)
What's funny is, the same people who will complain about P2P file sharing will get a seat on an apt next to a ball field & watch a baseball game for free. :noid
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It really does not matter. I have been reading a few reviews about Vista and they all appear to paint a rosie picture. Not one of them even attempts to say anything negative about this pile-of-poop OS.
I really should just shoot myself and get it over with.
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:noid Skuzzy may go crazy over a dumb O.S System:rolleyes:
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No, it's the fact I have to support that pile-o-poop OS.
Already getting the, "Will Aces High II support Vista?" questions from all over the place. People!!! It is not up to the application to support the OS!!! Damn MS's marketing to hell.
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why do u have to support it..i think linux support would be better then vista:rolleyes:
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Unfortunately, Linux support would be worse. As much as I like Linux, it is not something I would ever want to support for a game.
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its V-day .... Aurgh ..... time for the "not responsible for people Frelling up there Gamers with this pile O S ... "
or How about a "Idiots on Vista Forum ..."
(Skuzzy , I wont say a word if ya happen to trip over "The Cord" today )
:D
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
its V-day .... Aurgh ..... time for the "not responsible for people Frelling up there Gamers with this pile O S ... "
or How about a "Idiots on Vista Forum ..."
(Skuzzy , I wont say a word if ya happen to trip over "The Cord" today )
:D
Just hope he doesn't put "The Cord" around his neck, over vista.:(
Bronk
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maybe Skuzzy shud put "USE VISTA AT YOUR OWN RISK" sign on the site:rolleyes: :aok
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First I need to quantify the impact this OS is going to have on the game. I already know what the impact will be, but I need to put numbers to it.
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DRM is crap
I transferred some mp3 I made from my own CD on my MP3 player being the dork I am I deleted the file on my computer I was unable to transfert back because meanwhile I changed my computer ... so I've to generate the mp3 again ...
I'm pissed.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Damn MS's marketing to hell.
Skuzzy gives me some of the bestest quotes ever!
But..onto the matter at hand.
*waves his hand*
Vista is not the OS you are looking for...
You want to support OSX...
Move along...
:D
I use OSX for work, and Windows because my games make me. I despise Apple's hardware and Jobs ego but...I can't argue with an OS that just works...and leaves me alone. It's also fun to run XP in a window, and when it acts retarded...I can Force Quit it. :) It's one of my favorite things.
Maybe one day Linux will grow up, or OSX will be freed from the iron grip of Apple only hardware....I can dream can't i?
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I feel the same as most of you guys. Unfortunately my experiences with Linux are that it's fun but clunky and awkward and in no way ready for day to day use far less games. Theres no way I can enable 3d acceleration on a 9600 pro no matter ho often I type xorg config or whatever!
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Gaming performance comparison: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=354&type=expert&pid=1
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Originally posted by republic
Skuzzy gives me some of the bestest quotes ever!
Ditto!!! :t :rofl
The news had a short blurb about Vista last night. It was the local news. They said it probably won't run on your old computers, and even current computers would run slower with it installed. They said the only reason you should get it is if you're getting a brand new computer.
Well, I really hate them for being so shallow about it. However, I hope (hope!) that this will slow down the lesser-informed PC users out there. Hopefully they won't get it right away.
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I don't think anything will keep the "off the shelf" buyers from picking up a Vista machine regardless of what is reported. Unless someone comes out & says:
"Vista will report ALL your online activity to the authorities including porn surfing, credit card & debit purchases, downloads, passwords...everything!"
Even though I just made it up, I think it would take a rumor that drastic to significantly slow sales of Vista machines. :noid
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Unfortunately, Linux support would be worse. As much as I like Linux, it is not something I would ever want to support for a game.
Could you elaborate, please? I'm really interested in knowing the reason. And I solemnly promise I won't argue with you ;)
I've dabbled in Linux for many years, mainly because I'm curious. Actually, what's holding me back from ritualistically removing windows from my system, is Aces High support and support for my sticks (TM Cougar setup and various CH controllers). For me, there is nothing attractive about windows; the only thing windows has is Aces High and stick support. Not much, but important nonetheless.
Wouldn't it be a dream if Linux had such a desktop presence that it would be crazy for peripheral makers to not make linux drivers? I'm tired of windows winning by default. Even if they make a horrible...Ah, it's no use ranting...
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Because linux has too many variations, too many custom-compiled kernels, too many open-source versions, too many of everything. There are almost as many unique versions of linux as there are people that use it. Imagine trying to code a game to run on even a fraction of it. And then if it doesn't run on person X's computer, you have to work with them through a lot of technical support to get it running, or even just say "I'm sorry it won't work on your OS".
Say what you will about Windows, it's usually pretty consistent from computer to computer.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It really does not matter. I have been reading a few reviews about Vista and they all appear to paint a rosie picture. Not one of them even attempts to say anything negative about this pile-of-poop OS.
I really should just shoot myself and get it over with.
Lol, already told my boss that if any new laptops arrive with vista on, say bye bye to it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Because linux has too many variations, too many custom-compiled kernels, too many open-source versions, too many of everything. There are almost as many unique versions of linux as there are people that use it. Imagine trying to code a game to run on even a fraction of it. And then if it doesn't run on person X's computer, you have to work with them through a lot of technical support to get it running, or even just say "I'm sorry it won't work on your OS".
Say what you will about Windows, it's usually pretty consistent from computer to computer.
I hear ya, but aren't you just a bit too pessimistic?
I remember playing "Castle Wolfenstein" on linux some years back (with better framerates, might I add). That game didn't have me jump through hoops to get it working. I wasn't, and I'm surely still not, any linux expert in any regard, but it was real easy. No special requirements except the normal "kernel-so-and-so, xfree-xx, and openGL accelerated vid drivers".
It is possible that many enthusiasts have setups that would choke on a given game, but those guys know what they're doing and aren't expected to complain loudly when a game doesn't work on their frankenstein. Most gameplaying linux users would go with a "mainstream" and popular distro, and those are pretty streamlined and predictable. Heck, linux is easier to keep updated than windows; most distros update automatically if you don't choose otherwise. Even applications, libraries and vid drivers are updated, that's even better than OSX(thinking of apps).
I'd go for AH on a mac too. And the mac world makes the "consistent" windows world look like complete chaos. OSX has to be the easiest platform to support.
But then again windows wins by default because everyone's got it, and that's that.
The mechanics are easy to understand, but it's hard not to dream.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Unfortunately, Linux support would be worse. As much as I like Linux, it is not something I would ever want to support for a game.
Ohhh Skuzzy, Skuzzy...
It is not "so hard" as you think. You forget one simple thing - Linux community know to support each other very well, report on bugs and problems.
I just look in TW (absolutly outdated binary that was build with absolutly legacy libraries - they just have no idea how linux works) - and still people manage to run it and help each other with tips.
Once you release the game for Linux platform you'll find LOTS of supporters for free (this I can tell you from experiense). If linux community would allways relay on official support - no one would ever run linux.
Targetware, Skype support from community is a way better then any kind of officiall support.
Just give us the linux binary and I back to AHII :cry
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For the new user to install and use LINUX, they'd have to install a 2 DvD release and then still leap into a bunch of problems. You end up with more crap loaded on your system than Windows does. Even then, the first time you go to install something you get a list of 10 other things you have to install to get it running.
The LINUX community prides itself on help, but it also prides itself on superiority and you have to deal with that most times you look for help. And... if the help involves: just go in and re-compile your kernel then you get laughed at for the simple reply of "how do I do that?" where someone finally posts a link to a how-to website that was written for someone other than new LINUX users.
So... skuzzy would have to start with a list of 20 different things that would need to be checked, installed, recompiled, updated and modified just to get the user to the needed configuration for running pretty much anything.
I ran LINUX for about 8 years. I gave it up when I got disgusted with all the hoops I'd have to jump through when I did anything with it and I got disgusted with the community. I do like my "In a world without gates, who needs fences?" shirt, but sometimes a fence in front of a cliff is a good thing.
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It all depends on the Linux distro MiniD. The one I use is on one CD (there are 4 optional CD's with it) and does not enable any services at all, but asks as it goes through the installation if you want them enabled.
It even has help on what each one is. Brief, but it is there.
But that is the good and bad of Linux. A ton of different distros and all with different approaches to just about everything. Sounds like you might have used the wrong one for your particular application. Again, a problem with Linux. Which distro would/should be used for any given computer installation?
It would be a support nightmare. The only way I could see a game company providing a game, like ours, would be to provide it on a distro of Linux. Not really a great way to do it.
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Red Hat is pretty decent, but I don't think you can get it anymore unless you want to spring for the full blown enterprise version.
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Artik, I tried to get TW running on Fedora Core, and was unable to after a long long time. I even asked for help on the TW forums but didn't get hardly any. Why? Becuase probably nobody else could get it running either. I had to install over half a dozen different modules that weren't there by default, then update some more, then had to mess around just to get sound working. All of this required a lot of searching outside of TW in general linux help searches.
Compiling the kernel, no matter what the linux fans say, is not an easy thing. You run the risk of entirely ruining your OS if you do it wrong. It's not user friendly and its counter-intuitive. I did a lot of reading up about it, but decided it wasn't worth the effort. I ditched linux and went back to a single boot with WinXP.
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Linux is excellent for single persons with a lot of time on their hands. The rest of us with a job and family, there just isn't time or peace to get into it.
A realistic article about Vista: http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI3MywxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=
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A BBSpot Vista upgrade chart:
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/02/windows-vista-upgrade-decision-flowchart.html
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Ah well, all the gaming sites Firing Squad etc are gushing about vista being "better than expected". No big rebellion there then:rolleyes:
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My only concern with Vista and the increased cost of hardware required to get the system up and running on new machines, i can see hardware manufacturers cutting cost on components and reducing their quality. The best example can be seen today with windows XP Dell machines, that the sound card system are emulated or cause large amount of interrupts to the CPU decreasing performance. I've had 12-15 different machines at work with poorly written internal sound card drivers, needing to be replaced with PCI cards sound cards instead.
No doubt skuzzy you have had problems trying to support sound card systems that are simply not up to scratch of actually producing sound and recording it as well.
I wish i could bring some good news, but it seems like currently Vista because of DRM has disabled sound cards that have local loop backs on the chips to reduce echo recording of sound. This means most sound cards if they rely on this internal sound card loop back will prevent legal usage of the hardware because of piracy.
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Originally posted by republic
I use OSX for work, and Windows because my games make me.
Im in the same situation. if it was not for the urge to get back to AH then i would have been happy in my OSX world. :)
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Skuzzy - most of companies that provide Linux support test it on two three distros (or even one). But if it runs on them than you are able to run these binaries on most of distros.
(ok - probably you can't run 3D game on Damn Small Linux - but it was not build for this)
There are lots of companies that provide sucessefully closed source SW for linux - without problems.
Anyway - most of games that support linux work this way and work absolutly well and all runs out of box or with very little effort.
The reason there are many distros is very simple - there can be many distros and anyone chooses what it needs. From the application - you need to tell I need libraries XYZ with following versions. Each distribution has tools to install these libraries (sometimes yum, sometimes urpmi, somtimes apt, sometimes yast, sometime emerge or packman or even simple rpm/deb/tgz or even build form the source) - however you should not know how small-2-users-distro-that-you-have-never-hear-about-it provides these libraries. You do not care of this - if the user knows how to install them or he knows where to find a help.
About TW - I just want to tell a simple thing - the developers have no idea what linux is and how to build programs for it. (You could run the TW about a two years ago with problems but it is very hard to run it on modern distro). If they build their binaries a two years ago with tens of absolutly legacy libraries don't expect them to run on modern distro. This is not the same for AH because it has frequent releases and it can be close to mainstream.
Compiling the kernel, no matter what the linux fans say, is not an easy thing.
Do you know how to compile a kernel? I don't! (and I use linux for loooong period and I can tell that I'm experiensed user).
There are lots of prejudice in all connected to linux because people do not use it as main desktop so they don't know how the things work (well).
Anyway... I think the future is in multiplatform software and games. One OS can not control all the desktop market forever. ;)
However Skuzzy - it is up to you - support Vista or Support Linux :p
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It's so retarded - even if they managed to lock down Vista beyond all useability thus preventing piracy - the pirates will just use something else instead.
End result: Normal consumer gets crippled bloatware at high price.
Normal consumer thinks he got shafted and asks the pirate for a cracked copy. While getting that he will notice how many other wonderful things there are available. Mission accomplished.
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I know.... bring back OS/2 :D Hey... I liked Warp.
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artik, have you ever written software to deal with multiple joysticks in Linux? Mouse and keyboard are a no-brainer. But that is where it ends for user input devices. Joysticks are a nightmare.
And not one of the three distros I have at home has any type of *native* support for real time 3D graphics, save the kludgy thing ID used for Quake, which is not compatible with many other things and cannot be used for any games today.
Linux is its own worst enemy. There is no common installation method for applications across all the distros. Any application can stomp on anything it wants to with any version of the libraries it needs to use. One day soemthing works, the next day it doesn't after you install some other software.
Do not get me wrong. I prefer Linux over any OS from MS, but in the real world, Linux is simply not a viable replacement for MS OS's.
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Quite! So where does that leave us? Jumping up and down in impotent rage that's what:aok
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No, it just means those who are fortunate enough to be in the know, will avoid Vista and continue with XP.
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Originally posted by FOGOLD
Quite! So where does that leave us? Jumping up and down in impotent rage that's what:aok
say FU to MS and go to Mac:D
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Interesting on Firing Squad
FiringSquad: We ran some benchmarks with Aero Glass on and off and noted no performance difference when using Catalyst 7.1! Normally under an OS you see a slight 3-5% performance hit when you turn on the eye candy, but that wasn’t there under Aero Glass which was definitely surprising. Do you think the new driver model helps Aero Glass performance or is it something else?
Andrew Dodd: Basically (pretty much because of the new Vista driver model) the Vista OS just suspends Aero in the background, (once you enter 3D exclusive mode it would be a waste of GPU resources to keep running Aero). So that’s why there’s no performance impact
As a result of the changes Microsoft has implemented in Vista, gaming performance no longer suffers when desktop eye candy effects are left on. This is great news for gamers who enjoy the benefits of Aero Glass, but were concerned with its performance impact: there is none. This is unheard of for a Microsoft OS!
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That is the biggest crock of crap I have read in a while. Of course the OS suspecnds the desktop drawing when it is not needed. XP does that too.
Sheesh.
And yet, game performance is still 15 to 20 % percent lower than XP. They fail to mention that. I hate review sites that are more marketing than review.
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As planned, I now have the release version of Ultimate installed in a dual boot config. I'm posting this only to give my first impressions of AH2 running under Vista, not to start any one OS vs. the other arguments.
Machine specs:
HP Pavilion M7680N Media Center PC
E6400 Core 2 Duo
2GB ram
Realtek audio
7300LE graphics card
Vista Ultimate 32 bit
MS Force Feedback Pro stick
Logitech headphones/mic
I spent maybe an hour total Wednesday and Thursday in one or the other main areans just messing around getting a feel for things. Today I spent maybe 2 hours in Blue after setting the standard Vista performance settings for max performance, killing 4 or 5 running processes from Taskamanager. I did not go into system services and kill anything from there.
While I never got into the vicinity of any massive furballs with the consequent FPS hit most people get in such a situation, I did get into areas of what I will call "normal activity" for me. Vista gives me a max refresh of 60 since It doesn't recognize my monitor other than a generic flatpanel, whereas running under XP I normally have my refresh set at 75.
Under XP, using an alternate hardware profile with about 17 running processes, I normally get frame rates from 45 FPS ot 75 while in the air or at a field gun depending on the level of obect activity. Today running under Vista my frame rates were 39 - 60 in simlar areas of object activity. Most people consider the 7300LE to be a low end PCI-E card. I would hope performance would be somewhat better with a better card.
When in the hangar I received alot of snap/crackle/pop. For whatever reason that goes away once I've left the hangar and sound is pretty much as usual with only the very occassional snap or pop. Under XP my sound is flawless.
With the above performance hits noted everything seems business as usual. I got shot up plenty as I was playing with getting view set and remapping my stick on the fly as I didn't take the time to do that offline. But, I get shot up plenty anyway.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I haven't tried GV'ing yet. Like most people (I think) I usually take a big performance hit running around trees and such. I'll be curious to see how it does there.
So while I'll probably still continue to run AH under XP, I don't have any real qualms so far (SO FAR) about running it under Vista. I'm posting this mostly for the benefit of average non-techie users who are thinking about buying new boxes with Vista already onboard. But if you are one of those folks I definitely would not advise getting a low end box!! Repeat: DO NOT GET A LOW END BOX!!
Let the flaming resume...
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IWink ,,
have you gotten any sound loop crashes yet ?? that was my problem with rc2 32 bit .. and your not running two hard drives correct ??
I was getting alot of search type lockups and the Forever Frelling waiting time when ever opening up anything on the second drive from Vista . (one time i went back to reset the mill ,,came back 30 mins later and it was still in limbo land ... (not locked up ,,, just taking forever to access the file)
my fps hit was around 20% all around .. and the 64 bit verson wouldnt even play AH with its ati card in it .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
IWink ,,
have you gotten any sound loop crashes yet ?? that was my problem with rc2 32 bit .. and your not running two hard drives correct ??
I was getting alot of search type lockups and the Forever Frelling waiting time when ever opening up anything on the second drive from Vista . (one time i went back to reset the mill ,,came back 30 mins later and it was still in limbo land ... (not locked up ,,, just taking forever to access the file)
my fps hit was around 20% all around .. and the 64 bit verson wouldn't even play AH with its ati card in it .
No. I haven't gotten any crashes of any kind yet. I am running two physical disks. I have not experienced any problems accessing any files or working with any files that reside on the other non-Vista disk other than Media Center not getting some of the music album art. I can see the album art when looking at a normal file directory listing but Media Center can't for whatever reason. Media Center wasn't that hot with XP. It doesn't seem much better in Vista so far.
I also see no time lag in accessing the other disk.
Its not a new game - but I always liked Ubisoft's Far Cry and in its day was petty demanding of hardware. I installed that last night, turned all options to max, left Vista set at max visual quality and it was great!
Ultimate comes with both the 32 bit and the 64 bit versions - two seperate disks. I didn't feel like playing around with the 64 bit version which I expect more trouble from. Before I activate it I may play with it if I have time, but probably not. I've got 30 days to activate, minus four.
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one of my classes just got new Mac Pcs with 30inch lcd monitors..and the macs seem to outrun the dual core pc's in the main Pc lab (one with pending vista update)
:D
what can i expect out of the new vista on the pc's?
will they be even slower?
will a person more familarized with XP like me have problems using vista?
any other problems with the USB flash drive with XP saved items on it and other weird problems i would run into when our school updates?
:aok ty in advance
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Is there any way that you can buy a new Dell computer and it will NOT be Vista?
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My USB flash drive works fine passing stuff back and forth from an XP box to the Vista box.
As for relative speed, I first installed RC1 on a 1.5GHZ P4 with 512MB ram. XP ran like a champ on that box. Vista Ultimate RC1 was verrrrrrry slooowwww.
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Originally posted by FlyingFish
Is there any way that you can buy a new Dell computer and it will NOT be Vista?
Last night Dell still had XPS machines with XP Media Center. Don't know how long that will last.
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Originally posted by FlyingFish
Is there any way that you can buy a new Dell computer and it will NOT be Vista?
Format c: is your friend.
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Originally posted by FlyingFish
Is there any way that you can buy a new Dell computer and it will NOT be Vista?
Is there any reason why you would want to buy a Dell at all? :D
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Dell is better than some. HP/Compaq are the worst.
And OEM's have to switch to shipping to Vista as MS will not allow them to do anything else. They usually have a small grace period to rid themselves of the previous OS before being forced to ship the new OS.
However, you might call Dell and ask them if you can still get XP on a new computer.
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I use my puter for gaming. Once the DX10 games start to get released I will want to play them. I suspect others will to. I am just gonna wait and see. I think there will be improvements from MS, prolly within 6 months.
Dave
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Originally posted by Nomak
I use my puter for gaming. Once the DX10 games start to get released I will want to play them. I suspect others will to. I am just gonna wait and see. I think there will be improvements from MS, prolly within 6 months.
Dave
Don't hold your breath. Despite the marketing DX10 is not going to be a revolution in gaming. That and slow adoption rate of Vista will make DX10 titles long in the tooth.
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This is what all you guys sound like.
Arthur: I am your King.
Peasant woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king, then?
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by devine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I'm your king.
Dennis: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You can't expect to weild supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: If I went 'round sayin' I was an emporer just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!.
Just kidding I find it entertaining reading all the "reviews" and then reading what you guys are saying here. I am interested in Vista simply for the parental controls aspect for me since my oldest son is now using the computer more and more and even though I am pretty good and keeping track on him I am not here 100% of the time to make sure that he does what he is supposed to do.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Dell is better than some. HP/Compaq are the worst.
And OEM's have to switch to shipping to Vista as MS will not allow them to do anything else. They usually have a small grace period to rid themselves of the previous OS before being forced to ship the new OS.
However, you might call Dell and ask them if you can still get XP on a new computer.
Wow Skuzzy
That's the first time I've ever disagreed with you. Every machine in my office is Dell excepting mine. I loathe and despise the Dell machines with every fiber of my being because every single one of them has had a hardware fault within a year of purchase. Whereas my Compaq here at home and at the office have never given me a bit of trouble.
That said I'm not even in the same sport much less the same league with your knowledge so I'm just going on base experience here.
Why do you say HP / Compaq are the worst?
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Heck, all the OEM computers are crap hardware.
Dell has a much cleaner installation of the OS than HP/Compaq and that is about the only distinction I will make between the OEM computers.
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did i forget to mention that all all the pc's in our school(except the Mac's) are dell.and they seem to die after a year of use
my Compaq at home is a "problem Child" pc:mad:
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Uh,school's get the bottom of the line hardware as they want it cheap. Not really a good point of comparison.
By whatever OEm computer you want. They are all crap as far as I am concerned.
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I generally have found Dell Optiplex systems to be very reliable. I currently have a lab which hasn't needed a single hardware repair (other than a few stuck floppy disks) in 5 years...with heavy teenage use. :)
However, I also have a Dell Poweredge server which has chewed through 2 hard drives in 6 months. Never seen anything like it. I dunno whether it was just a freak of nature and I had 2 faulty drives in a row...or maybe the sata controller on the Poweredge is killing them...very frustrating. On my 3rd system drive...thank goodness for drive imaging.
As a one man IT "department"...I have no choice but OEM. :(
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the Main lab Pc's here at my school r pretty good..all the other dells got P.O.S hardware
the macs r about a month old ,but as they stand i think they will last a few years:D
my pc's got a P.O.S Processor and graphics card..everything else is good
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Just wanted to chime in saying that AH is working fine on my system with Vista, so if you think you might get stuck with it...there is hope. :)
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+
RAM: 2GB Mushkin DDR-400
Motherboard Chipset: nVidia 6100/410 using vista default drivers
Video Card: GeForce 7800GT using 97.46 drivers
Sound: Audigy using Creative Labs 2.12.001 beta vista drivers
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I've worked with Dell servers, Dell desktops, HP servers, HP desktops and never experienced any extraordinary problems with any of 'em. That is only my experience.
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Originally posted by republic
As a one man IT "department"...I have no choice but OEM. :(
Uhmm.. I am also in that same boat. I build our servers so that if anything goes wrong with one, we can usually get it fixed far faster than any OEM server. It also gives us control on the quality of hardware used in the servers.
HTC has never had a production server failure of any kind. I can go all the way back to the 1980's, when I started building and maintaining servers and have never had a hardware failure of any server I have built.
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My old 98 wasn't a OEM machine..it was a good pc..it don't run now cause of a virus wiped the start up files off the pc
not to go off topic but would overclocking my Celeron-D processor help with AH performance any?:confused:
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The thing about HPs and Dells isn't that they don't work. It's that they don't upgrade. They go out of their way to make proprietary hardware so that you have to go out of your way to get compatible parts if you want to do anything to them.
Sounds like it's not a big deal, right? Only my family had 3 HPs once. They had very low RAM as default, and we tried to get more for one of them. Nobody had it. We had to have it ordered from a compUSA or a Best Buy or something and then wait for it to come in. Then it was very expensive. We ran into similar problems down the line trying to upgrade the other computers, only the RAM we got was bad, so we had to wait even longer for more.
[Edit, left out the word "nonstandard" in the following sentence. Fixed.]
They go out of their way to make these things nonstandard: cases, fans, mounts, plugs, and a lot of other things. If you do get one with an AGP slot (or PCIe nowadays) you can stick a video card in it, but that's the one thing they CAN'T make proprietary, because nobody would make anything for a custom-format AGP slot, or a custom-format PCI slot.
Anyways, I tried to upgrade my sister's PC. She had a Dell. It was too old to simply pop in another chip, so I swapped out the motherboard. Only the case wasn't standard ATX. The fan placement for the vent out the back was nonstandard, oh and it was missing some of the screw mounts for standard ATX, and the case pins (pwr, LED, HD cables) were non-standard and I had to cut them apart and manually re-attach them to the proper mobo pins.
Hell they went out of their way to make the standard USB header had an extra row in it. Yes, it should have 1 row of 4 and 1 row of 5 pins. Only they added an unused row (without pins -- just a gap) so that only their case would work with their motherboards. Further they switched the pin order around IN that plug. I had to chop the front-panel US plug in half, grind the excess plastic down, and reverse the plug halves left to right (at least they used universal USB colors on the wires).
These folks are paranoid. They don't want you to do anything, ever, with their stuff. They want you to turn it in and get a completely new machine at the first sign of trouble. We all see how well that works for Macintosh, don't we?
So, yeah, if you're just going to use it and nothing else, they make a decent PC. If you ever want to do anything that involves opening the case, get something else.
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Originally posted by Wes14
not to go off topic but would overclocking my Celeron-D processor help with AH performance any?:confused:
You might want to start a new topic. That's a new subject entirely. Include the current specs you have, because it depends on how fast your CPU is right now.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Heck, all the OEM computers are crap hardware.
Dell has a much cleaner installation of the OS than HP/Compaq and that is about the only distinction I will make between the OEM computers.
ahhh we're talking about OEM here... okay then your post makes sense. I'm not going to attempt to build comps for my office because if something happens to go wrong I don't want to deal with the bovine excrement if something goes wrong. Let them buy the 3 year extended warranties.
Only recently have I considered building my own box as I only use it for web browsing, personal finance, light photo or music editing, and most importantly AH.
Posted about that a while back and got some great responses.
Thank you for clearing that up sir.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The thing about HPs and Dells isn't that they don't work. It's that they don't upgrade. They go out of their way to make proprietary hardware so that you have to go out of your way to get compatible parts if you want to do anything to them.
Sounds like it's not a big deal, right? Only my family had 3 HPs once. They had very low RAM as default, and we tried to get more for one of them. Nobody had it. We had to have it ordered from a compUSA or a Best Buy or something and then wait for it to come in. Then it was very expensive. We ran into similar problems down the line trying to upgrade the other computers, only the RAM we got was bad, so we had to wait even longer for more.
[Edit, left out the word "nonstandard" in the following sentence. Fixed.]
They go out of their way to make these things nonstandard: cases, fans, mounts, plugs, and a lot of other things. If you do get one with an AGP slot (or PCIe nowadays) you can stick a video card in it, but that's the one thing they CAN'T make proprietary, because nobody would make anything for a custom-format AGP slot, or a custom-format PCI slot.
Anyways, I tried to upgrade my sister's PC. She had a Dell. It was too old to simply pop in another chip, so I swapped out the motherboard. Only the case wasn't standard ATX. The fan placement for the vent out the back was nonstandard, oh and it was missing some of the screw mounts for standard ATX, and the case pins (pwr, LED, HD cables) were non-standard and I had to cut them apart and manually re-attach them to the proper mobo pins.
Hell they went out of their way to make the standard USB header had an extra row in it. Yes, it should have 1 row of 4 and 1 row of 5 pins. Only they added an unused row (without pins -- just a gap) so that only their case would work with their motherboards. Further they switched the pin order around IN that plug. I had to chop the front-panel US plug in half, grind the excess plastic down, and reverse the plug halves left to right (at least they used universal USB colors on the wires).
These folks are paranoid. They don't want you to do anything, ever, with their stuff. They want you to turn it in and get a completely new machine at the first sign of trouble. We all see how well that works for Macintosh, don't we?
So, yeah, if you're just going to use it and nothing else, they make a decent PC. If you ever want to do anything that involves opening the case, get something else.
*hint* a new case is $40 at any hardware shop *hint*
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
*hint* a new case is $40 at any hardware shop *hint*
Case? You mean case, motherboard, memory, power supply and so forth... right? It's not unusual for most of this to be proprietary on HPs and Compacts (from what I've seen... haven't worked with Dells).
Making them upgradeable is not in the manufacturer's best interest.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Case? You mean case, motherboard, memory, power supply and so forth... right? It's not unusual for most of this to be proprietary on HPs and Compacts (from what I've seen... haven't worked with Dells).
Making them upgradeable is not in the manufacturer's best interest.
Case comes with powersupply *check*
He already bought the new mobo which didnt fit in the old case *check*
He was fighting with expensive and hard to get ram *check*
Conclusion: Path of least resistance and cost is to dump the OEM and build a new one.
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Originally posted by republic
Just wanted to chime in saying that AH is working fine on my system with Vista, so if you think you might get stuck with it...there is hope. :)
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+
RAM: 2GB Mushkin DDR-400
Motherboard Chipset: nVidia 6100/410 using vista default drivers
Video Card: GeForce 7800GT using 97.46 drivers
Sound: Audigy using Creative Labs 2.12.001 beta vista drivers
It seems my initial post was in error. In Vista AH does a very odd "slow down" every 5 seconds or so...very weird. It's like normal, then drops to like 10fps for about 3 seconds, then back to normal then repeats. The weird thing is..it seems to only happen when other players are nearby.
"Fell down a well, eyes crossed...kicked in the head by a mule...back together again... I dunno." - applicable movie quote
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Originally posted by republic
It seems my initial post was in error. In Vista AH does a very odd "slow down" every 5 seconds or so...very weird. It's like normal, then drops to like 10fps for about 3 seconds, then back to normal then repeats. The weird thing is..it seems to only happen when other players are nearby.
"Fell down a well, eyes crossed...kicked in the head by a mule...back together again... I dunno." - applicable movie quote
It probably detects there are other players nearby that play with non-drm computers and slows down your premium experience. :D
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Originally posted by republic
It seems my initial post was in error. In Vista AH does a very odd "slow down" every 5 seconds or so...very weird. It's like normal, then drops to like 10fps for about 3 seconds, then back to normal then repeats. The weird thing is..it seems to only happen when other players are nearby.
"Fell down a well, eyes crossed...kicked in the head by a mule...back together again... I dunno." - applicable movie quote
For what its worth I haven't seen that on my machine. I've had a few people close to me too and it seems all ot them are shooting at me for some reason. :(
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My sis REALLY needed an upgrade, and it was the mobo from my PC (I upgraded to a PCIe mobo) so all I did was buy a $45 Celeron which was 5x faster than her old CPU and wanted to swap it out. If I had to go through all the trouble of going out and getting a new case she'd have been turned off the entire process.
Trust me, it was for her own good. She couldn't even run SIMS (which she enjoys).
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I cruised this thread briefly to get a feel for what is up with AH and Vista. Installing it on a machine at work on Monday to see if it will work well with my dev tools. We've briefly tested it with VMware and it boots nice and fast after the initial install.
I understand Skuzzy is looking at a 15% or so performance hit... has anyone benchmarked this with Sandra, Cinebench or something else? I might get an extra hard drive and go at it that way at home, but I want to play around some more at work to see how it goes.
DRM is here to stay guys. Theft of IP on the scale we are seeing now has created a market for a real and viable solution.
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Uh, the current DRM technology will not stop piracy at all. It will only hinder/stop legal users from making copies of thier legally purchased software/content. In some cases, it will even alter/downgrade the content resolution (audio or video) when played back.
The piracy problem is a problem. But DRM is just another bandaid on a cut that is 1 mile deep, 5 miles long, and getting bigger all the time. Until they attack the source of piracy, they will never accomplish anything.
Of course, one could argue they do not want to stop piracy. It gives them all the ammunition to build thier power up. And it might really boil down to something that petty.
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Why would Bill Gates want DRM in his system to begin with? Do you think he really cares about MP3's being swapped? Itunes is the answer. He knows if he can make it all secure they will flock to them in droves to be the premier content provider for TV, Movies, and music. Microsoft has been sued how many times for anti-competive monopolistic behavior? Anytime someone comes up with a better product than him (Apple Itunes) he tries to buy them out or force them out. When is the last time you saw Lotus 123 on a computer?
The problem is his solution screws up everything else on your system. Skuzzy we need AH to be able to run on MACs.
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I would bet Mini-D has a connection to the recording industry or used to make money selling music. I bet he thinks every 15 year old needs to be in jail for all this theft. The good news is, artists make almost nothing off record sales, the song writers and record companies make a fortune. The artist only makes money on tour or if they write there own stuff. Maybe the best future would be eliminate the record companies, artists sell direct. Local TV stations will be gone in 10 years (there may be more news bureaus in each state), the networks no longer need them. Artist have methods to distribute beyond the record companies anyway.
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VILLIFY EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES! You must be a democrat.
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Not the disagreeing part, it's the passion involved with arguing with everyone else. You refuse to accept anyone else's point of view. They don't pirate, why should they be punished? You are very narrow minded, must be a hate radio fan. Now tell truth, you have a connection hense, your overbearing support of DRM
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That's an interesting way of putting it. I don't see where I endorsed anything. I do see that every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. Whom it impacts is irrelevant. Many laws are put in place to limit the extremists at the cost of the individual freedoms others.
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Originally posted by Mini D
VILLIFY EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES! You must be a democrat.
I was thinking Republican...
Just thought I'd share some of my recent Vista experiences. After I discovered several of my newer games will not work (Star Trek Legacy, Civilization 4, etc.) and growing weary of a multitude of small bugs here and there...I've ran back home to momma (XP).
I gave Vista a good try...I went into it openminded...but it's just not ready to be my primary OS. I'll leave it on it's partition and see if updates correct the issues I've faced. After dealing with it most of the evening (from about 4:00 p.m. until now 9:30 p.m.) I don't have the will to go in detail about the irritation that is seething from my pores.
Suffice to say, I'm in XP, and happier than ever. :)
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See Rule #2
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Patriot is a word that has been misused for some time now. By more people than, I'm sure, you'd be willing to admit. Especially when it comes up in a thread about operating systems.
Republic,
I just purchased a new copy of XP last week when I built my new system. It was the same day Vista was released. There's no way I'd touch it right now. This is coming from someone that was a beta tester for Win95 and NT 4.0 and 5 (eventually Win2k) and even had some level of influence on WinXP's design (my ego leads me to believe). I'm done beta testing OS's and am going to stick with stability. There's simply nothing that Vista offers right now that I can't get more reliably from XP. Eventually, that will change and I'll have to make the move. I'm hoping things will be worked out when that happens. Until then, I'm thankfull that people are willing to take the plunge right now and take bullets for those of us relegated to the back lines.
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Politics has no place in this forum. Please refrain from delving into it. Thank you.
If you wish to talk politics, then go to the O'Club. There is a Vista thread there.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
The piracy problem is a problem. But DRM is just another bandaid on a cut that is 1 mile deep, 5 miles long, and getting bigger all the time. Until they attack the source of piracy, they will never accomplish anything.
Eventually it will be keyed. All your playback devices and your duplicating equipment will have a common key of some type that is registered to you. Your copies will only play on your keyed equipment. Originals will play anywhere.
If you get a chance you should attend a Vista Launch event, they are interesting.
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I have heard more than enough MS marketing to last a lifetime and that is all a launch is. MS doing every thing they can to convince people they have the best thing since sliced bread.
MS tap dances really well.
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What I'm really afraid of is the appearance of 'Vista ready' hardware. That might mean that after a few years the hardware will indeed be Vista ready i.e. stripped of the functionality supported by XP but not by Vista.
That might lead to a situation where s/pdif etc. will disappear even though you want to use the old OS.
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uh, guys a suggestion, not to be mean, but DX10 more that makes up for any overhead vista uses up, it VERY optimised, leaving nearly all tasks to the video card rather than CPU
A. turn off the eyecandy,
B. D3D10 mainstream Graphics cards (8600, 8300,) are going to be avalible with the first D3D10 games,
C. there are about 8-10 D3D10 games to be introduced in the first half of the year,
D. eyecandy doesnt affect when u game unless you play your games minimized or somthing
E. x64 edition is much more avalible, and is kept just as updated as x86 editions, unlike XP x64,
F. has dual-core enhacements, it wont allow threads to be bounced from core- to core unlike XP,
G.If you run games, your computer can hanle it unless you just play hearts or somthing,
H. It splits incoming internet badwidth between 2 cores/threads, better internet
I. D3D10
K. DirectX 10 CANNOT BE MADE FOR XP, IT REQUIERS THE VISTA ENGINE< GET OVER SAYING OH< WELL, THEY COULD MAKE IT FOR XP, its impossible, not even SP3 could do that.
L. if it needs a 2.6 GHz processor in DX9, it only needs a 2GHz or 2.2 GHZ in DX10
it also makes sense to require DX9 cards, if you dont have one, you are probibly in 98 or somting. now, they should be able to do somthing with integrated, but they havent, that is one thing i dislike about it.
. You cannot stop Vista from coming, Ture, there will always be people who stay with 95, 98, 2000, and now XP, but how many gamers do you see using 98 and 2000? and 2000 was pretty much abandoned in 2003, 2 years after XP relase. plus ive seen old books on XP saying that the requierments were astoundingly high, and now it looks like childs play requierments.
BTW im sure ppl said for 2000 going to XP,
oh it just looks better, ill never change to it, but look now, no games are made for 2000, and most games now (exept here) wont run on it.
P.S. dont bring up that stupid "oh, some games dont work on it now" excuse, YOU CANNOT DESIGN AN OS AROUND A 1000 PROGRAMS< IT is SOO MUCH EASIER TO DESIGN A 1000 PROGRAMS AROND AN OS
an OS has about 40Million lines of code, games somtimes really big ones have 3 million
sorry bout my bluntness, but i find it nessasary.
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Ohhhh.... You asked for it now. Stand by to repel flamers.
:t
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Heh its so easy to fool people.. the reason DX10 was never introduced to XP was purely for marketing reasons, the goal being to force people into migrating.
Vista = XP with minor enhancements and eye candy + buttload of DRM and limitations.
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Originally posted by sonicboom970
H. It splits incoming internet badwidth between 2 cores/threads, better internet
(For this reply I'll be in character as Chief Inspector Dreyfus played by Herbert Lom from the motion picture series "The Pink Panther")
I beg of you, please....please tell me you are not considering a field that has anything remotely to do with computers... :confused:
Not that your other points were any less silly...but point "H" simply has me wanting to cry. :cry
I apologize profusely for the flame but...people who brazenly feign technical prowess really frustrate those of us who are in the field....those of us who must put up with this day after day.... *eye twitch* Those of us who actually put many many hours into perfecting our craft... *eye twitch*
It seems anyone who knows how to say "Linux" feels they are a certified guru of all things binary... *eye twitch*
Sorry about MY bluntness, but i find it necessary. *Malevolent laugh*
It would be like me watching "This Old House" and then giving people advice on how to build a house. *eye twitch*
It's crazy I tell ya CRAZY! *eye twitch*
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Ok, you asked for it.
Originally posted by sonicboom970
uh, guys a suggestion, not to be mean, but DX10 more that makes up for any overhead vista uses up, it VERY optimised, leaving nearly all tasks to the video card rather than CPU
A. turn off the eyecandy,
B. D3D10 mainstream Graphics cards (8600, 8300,) are going to be avalible with the first D3D10 games,
C. there are about 8-10 D3D10 games to be introduced in the first half of the year,
D. eyecandy doesnt affect when u game unless you play your games minimized or somthing
There will be no games coming specifically for DX10 in the next year or so, unless MS has paid a lot of money to game developers to do so.
Games running on anything other than DX10 will suffer performance problems, under Vista. DX10 performance gains will not make up for overall bloat, which is Vista. No game will ever run better on Vista than it does on XP, given the same hardware.
Games which are not compiled to run DX10, under Vista, suffer even more performance loss, as MS made the decision to spoof DX7-9. Uner XP, a game compiled for DX9, ran the DX9 API natively. In Vista, the only native API is DX10. All other DX video API's are being emulated, which further constrains performance.
Why do this? It makes it easier for MS to support. A totaly different thought process is at work here. In the past, the DX team always considered performance to be the number one priority. Well, when MS lost thier DX9 architect, a new team took over. I guess they do not consider gaming a priority under Vista.
E. x64 edition is much more avalible, and is kept just as updated as x86 editions, unlike XP x64,
I have no idea where you get your information from, but there is an overall uproar on the Internet about the lack of drivers for 64bit Vista. There are fewer 64bit drivers for Vista than there was for 64bit XP. That is a fact.
F. has dual-core enhacements, it wont allow threads to be bounced from core- to core unlike XP,
Different threading mechanism which blocks dynamic allocation of CPU resources. It was a problem in XP as MS had no idea how to code it properly, so they decided to just lock applcations to one CPU. It is acutally a step backwards in thread design.
By the way, UNIX has run dynamic CPU resource management for over 10 years now without any issues. MS has a source code license to UNIX, but still cannot figure out to make it work, It is widely recognized, UNIS does threading better than anything MS has ever shipped.
G.If you run games, your computer can hanle it unless you just play hearts or somthing,
Or don't bother with Vista, which is a better solution.
H. It splits incoming internet badwidth between 2 cores/threads, better internet
That is called threading. And there are no performance gains to be had by splitting up a synchronous operations.
This is pure marketing speak (i.e. the application has to wait for the packet, no matter where it comes from and all the network packets travel in a serial stream).
I. D3D10
[/b]Which means diddly squat for 100% of the games available today. Let's say a couple of exclusive titles for DX10 did come out. Is any game worth doubling your hardware investment in order to play it at poorer performance levels than your current hardware will do when running XP?
Only somone with more money than sense would think so.
K. DirectX 10 CANNOT BE MADE FOR XP, IT REQUIERS THE VISTA ENGINE< GET OVER SAYING OH< WELL, THEY COULD MAKE IT FOR XP, its impossible, not even SP3 could do that.
Again, this is pure crap. MS made a marketing decision to not bring DX10 to XP. There is absolutely no techinical reason why they did this. None.
[n]L. if it needs a 2.6 GHz processor in DX9, it only needs a 2GHz or 2.2 GHZ in DX10[/b]
You have no idea what you are talking about here. There is absolutely nothing available on the market which will back up this statement you have made. Quite the opposite, as it stands right now.
it also makes sense to require DX9 cards, if you dont have one, you are probibly in 98 or somting. now, they should be able to do somthing with integrated, but they havent, that is one thing i dislike about it.
The requirement for a DX9 video card is only if you want to run the Aero interface.
You cannot stop Vista from coming, Ture, there will always be people who stay with 95, 98, 2000, and now XP, but how many gamers do you see using 98 and 2000? and 2000 was pretty much abandoned in 2003, 2 years after XP relase. plus ive seen old books on XP saying that the requierments were astoundingly high, and now it looks like childs play requierments.
I still run 2000. Many gamers who want proper multi-CPU support run Windows 2000. XP's thread management has always been pretty stupid. Windows 2000 is still better, in this regard. And windows 2000 still gets updates to this day from MS.
As to the rest of it. I do not need to read a book about it. I have lived it.
BTW im sure ppl said for 2000 going to XP,
oh it just looks better, ill never change to it, but look now, no games are made for 2000, and most games now (exept here) wont run on it.
Thais more BS. I play all the Unreal Tournament games under Windows 2000 just fine. I also have about 20 other games on my shelf I play.
P.S. dont bring up that stupid "oh, some games dont work on it now" excuse, YOU CANNOT DESIGN AN OS AROUND A 1000 PROGRAMS< IT is SOO MUCH EASIER TO DESIGN A 1000 PROGRAMS AROND AN OS
an OS has about 40Million lines of code, games somtimes really big ones have 3 million
sorry bout my bluntness, but i find it nessasary.
Vista breaks some very high end multi-media software. And MS did it intentionally in order to support DRM. Or more pointedly, they could not figure out how to make some things work, so they abandoned the API's used by those very high end packages.
Forgive my bluntness, but you have no idea what is going on here. Vista is all about making sure you cannot copy audio and video, if the manufacturer declares you cannot do so. That is a fact.
More impotantly. Vista brings nothing to the table which is beneficial to the end user. Quite the opposite actually. It brings more control to MS over your computer. That is also a fact.
Every claim you have made is pure marketing hype. Try to get in touch with the facts, as they paint a very different story of Vista.
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Wow Skuzzy , how long it take ya to type that ....
Actually the drivers are catching up for the nvidia cards in vista ... but there still not suitable for older/most games .. . ATI is in the dark still ... and I think Microjunk has a behind the seens deal with Intel/ nvidia ...some of the box builders are in it too i bet .
As for w2k I use it also and there's not any games ive found yet that dont run on it . out of my 3 OS's at home .. 98sp1.5, w2k pro, xp pro . ive found w2k to be the most stable and the least amount of crashes ...its never BSODed on me and only hard locked once or twice . W2K did Bsod on Mrs Roo's pc ... but she had a failing stick of Ram that caused it .
I myself couldnt stand XP at least until after sp2 and even then it never really grew on me.:p
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F. has dual-core enhacements, it wont allow threads to be bounced from core- to core unlike XP,
Different threading mechanism which blocks dynamic allocation of CPU resources. It was a problem in XP as MS had no idea how to code it properly, so they decided to just lock applcations to one CPU. It is acutally a step backwards in thread design.
Skuzzy, correct me if im wrong :). But I always thoughts that the scheduler inside windows XP will change the affinity of a thread from the native API to any of the free CPU that are available? Is that correct? Or are you just talking in general, that windows XP scheduler will force an application process affinity to one CPU and fork worker threads over to different CPU? But will not change the affinity of the process itself.
In regards to Windows defense, I assume because of computability issues with hyper threading and amd,intel coming up with drastic multi core + multi processors designs. They probably knew how to do it correctly, but it would break backwards computability with older applications.
But enjoy the post Skuzzy was very informative.
P.S.
sonicboom970 there is a huge problem in your logic my friend. Previously Microsoft was very keen on having backwards computability with older applications. It was the ONE MAIN reason they're the major operating system today, because they where concerned about backwards computability with older applications! Alot of the win32 API still have flaws from 16bit days, to garentee that old application still run! You cannot say the same in the Linux camp ( I think skuzzy talked about it ).
The problem, that has occurred recently in Microsoft is that the MSDN .net architecture won a major battle inside Microsoft that it was perfectly acceptable to break backwards computability with older applications. "We don't need to support all these applications anymore, lets start anew". And such you have the technologies of .net 1.0,1.5,2.0,3.0 ect... Microsoft internal structure has changed from backwards compability to inventing new wonderfully technologies that don't help the end user.
Reference:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
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Yes Boimber, XP will dynamically allocate the CPU based on resources, but it is some what broken in XP. Actually, the best thread manager MS has is in Windows 2000.
All this happens at a level which is transparent to the application, so there is no compatibility issue. MS just messed up in XP and made it easy on themselves in Vista.
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Rosco, actually ATI is regarded by most to have the best support for Vista across the board. That is to say, its product line has the best support. From the moterhboard chipsets (NVidia is very far behind here) to the video cards, ATI has Vista drivers for all of it.
Now, whether or not they are any good, could be another story.
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Vista is like a Siren calling the technical horde to their certain doom.
Unless you are comfortable running a dual boot setup (XP/Vista) or can accept the fact that some of your software will not work until an appropriate patch comes (if ever)...I will repeat the words of Pete from Oh' Brother...
"Do not seek the treasure. It's a bushwhack."
I have it installed as a novelty...and as training for when (not if) I begin getting calls from customers needing help. :)
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OK BIG QUESTION!
I made a mention of it earlier in this thread but never saw a response. I understand all the arguments about hardware overhead, DRM, etc..
BUT what about the parental controls within Vista? Has anyone taken a look at that part of the OS? I am interested in that aspect of Vista only and would rather stay away from buying more software if necessary and would rather have it setup within an OS.
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Originally posted by sonicboom970
it also makes sense to require DX9 cards, if you dont have one, you are probibly in 98 or somting.
umm I don't have a DX9 card, and I am running XP
some of use don't have money to spend on upgrades that change so fast you have spend $300 every few months for the next best card.
My GFTi4800 runs AH just fine, and ALL other games I play. I even play doom 3 on pretty high "eyecandy" settings with no stuttering at all.
there is something to be said for knowing how to run a clean system without unnecessary overhead.
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2 Questions:
1. will vista interfere with itunes?
2. Will Vista interfere with AH?
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Originally posted by Hawco
2 Questions:
1. will vista interfere with itunes?
2. Will Vista interfere with AH?
Dunno about iTunes.
The real question is this; Will Aces High II be stable under Vista?
The answer: Vista is not a stable environment yet. Drivers, and combination of drivers, yeild different results under Vista.
One thing we know for sure. The performance of the game will suffer when run under Vista as compared to running it under XP on the same hardware.
If you really are considering Vista, please also consider 3GB of RAM as a base to be able to run the game close to the same levels of performance as under XP in 1GB of RAM.
Some applications crashing under Vista seem to be the norm for right now. That should get better as patches and driver updates are released.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Dunno about iTunes.
The real question is this; Will Aces High II be stable under Vista?
The answer: Vista is not a stable environment yet. Drivers, and combination of drivers, yeild different results under Vista.
One thing we know for sure. The performance of the game will suffer when run under Vista as compared to running it under XP on the same hardware.
If you really are considering Vista, please also consider 3GB of RAM as a base to be able to run the game close to the same levels of performance as under XP in 1GB of RAM.
Some applications crashing under Vista seem to be the norm for right now. That should get better as patches and driver updates are released.
thanks Skuzzy, you've told me everything i need to know about vista- I'll give it a miss.
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I understand that Itunes is currently hosed with Vista. I'm not an Itunes guy so I'm taking the word of what I read - but I'm sure its true.
I've got Vista in a dual boot setup with XP. AH gameplay, while very playable on MY machine is degraded in performance when compared to running it under XP on the same machine.
There's NO reason for anyone to switch from XP to Vista just for the sake of having the latest OS. If you're "forced" into Vista by purchasing a machine with Vista pre-installed then your eyes better be wide open as to how AH will perform (and possibly not perform) and have a strategy to deal with it. Such a strategy might include installing XP while you can still get it. In such a case I wouldn't wipe out the Vista install - you may regret it at some point. I'd do the dual boot thing. Even then there is presently a problem in that in a dual boot congig each OS screws up the other's system restore points.
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Originally posted by Hawco
2 Questions:
1. will vista interfere with itunes?
2. Will Vista interfere with AH?
iTunes worked for me.... I say it worked, because it loaded and let me buy songs etc...but it was NOT stable. It crashed constantly. I don't know that it's a problem with iTunes itself or the quicktime decoder, because Quicktime also does not work properly in Vista.
AH worked for me on a 1v1 langame with my dad, but when connection to the AH servers I get this weird slowdown every 5-10 seconds. Makes no sense.
I'm still working to figure out all the issues i'm having with Vista, meanwhile when I just want to relax...I use XP still. :)
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Originally posted by republic
AH worked for me on a 1v1 langame with my dad, but when connection to the AH servers I get this weird slowdown every 5-10 seconds. Makes no sense.
I'm not seeing the cyclical slowdown you mention. I would assume it must be something specific to your particular installation.
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Ok, NVidia is not going to release Vista driver support for the NForce2 and NForce3 motherboard chipsets.
Oh, could one of you Vista folks run DXDIAG and tell me what version of DirectX is installed? Just curious.
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Originally posted by Reschke
OK BIG QUESTION!
I made a mention of it earlier in this thread but never saw a response. I understand all the arguments about hardware overhead, DRM, etc..
BUT what about the parental controls within Vista? Has anyone taken a look at that part of the OS? I am interested in that aspect of Vista only and would rather stay away from buying more software if necessary and would rather have it setup within an OS.
I have not taken a look at this Reschke. I'll dig around TechNet to see if there is any discussion of it.
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I appreciate it Skuzzy. I may still use the upgrade coupons on Vista that came with the last two versions of XP that I bought.
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Any luck on digging some information up about ease of use on the parental controls side? I can't seem to find out anything more reading the various articles about Vista before or after launch.
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I have not found anything yet.
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Originally posted by Reschke
Any luck on digging some information up about ease of use on the parental controls side? I can't seem to find out anything more reading the various articles about Vista before or after launch.
I find it very easy to use. I haven't tested it but here you have some screenies of control panel.
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture1.JPG)
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture2.JPG)
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture3.JPG)
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture4.JPG)
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture5.JPG)
As you see, for example AH dont show in gamelist!
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture6.JPG)
BUT you can find it from programlist.
(http://www.savanne.org/testi/Capture8.JPG)
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Thank you for the help.
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I got an acute rash looking at those pictures. :o
Not only that, he's also using a D-link wireless device. Talk about masochism in the third degree! :eek: ;)
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Hey, he is one of your compatriots. :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I got an acute rash looking at those pictures. :o
Not only that, he's also using a D-link wireless device. Talk about masochism in the third degree! :eek: ;)
D-Link is ok for home use. I wouldnt sell those for business use...
That thing has worked more than 2 years without problems, a router went broke when my wife dropped it from table...
They work, as we say here, Like a trains toilet.:D
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mipoikel,
Thanks for the information. That is a huge amount more than anything I have read or seen to date. I still haven't made up my mind but these upgrade coupons expire on March 15th so I have a little more time.
Skuzzy,
Thanks for looking and seeing what you could find out. I know where to come for all tech support NOT related to Vista. I may need to reup my Technet subscription also to get back in the groove.
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My mother just ordered a new laptop, and it got here today. Big surprise it's got Vista Home edition on it.
Well it comes with 1GB ram, but 200MB or so are allocated to the vid card (Radeon X1150 or something cheap), so it's got about 880 (even the BIOS says this when running RAM check during POST).
Anyways, Vista loads with 79 processes by default, when IDLING. When idle it's using 690+ MB of ram. Now, some of this is multiple iterations of Google stuff that Vista installs and runs by default.
Egads, no thank you!!
So, after a couple of hours, disabling services that aren't needed, uninstalling some crap, setting some options here and there, shutting down the damned user account control, and many MANY other steps....
I've got it down to a whopping "bare" 47 processes that idle using only 490MB of ram.
Out of 880.
We're probably going to ditch Vista and put XP on it as soon as we can afford another copy. For now we're going to test it.
My initial reaction was "damn this is slow" -- just populating windows takes a long time, getting the control panel to show up froze it up and it crashed-then-self-recovered on me. That really inspired confidence in me, as it was the first thing I'd tried to do in Vista, ever.
Anyways, it's sluggish in ordinary use compared to my rig, and it's a faster machine.
I also don't like the unecessary steps placed everywhere.
Example: You used to hit CTRL ALT DEL and get a task manager. Now you get a splash-screen menu where you have to click "task manager". Even some ordinary things that you used to access directly are now hidden within other pages. You have to click more to get any single task done.
I know this isn't really a bad or a good, but just from a user perspective it seems like they made it more complicated just for the halibut.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I've got it down to a whopping "bare" 47 processes that idle using only 490MB of ram.
Out of 880.
.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly Doesnt the Windows XP OS tend to use the same percentage of ram reguardless of how much ram you have?
I forget the exact percentages so for EXAMPLE ONLY Im going to say 1/2
So if you have 1 Gig or Ram Windows would use /1/2 a gig
2 Gigs of Ram Windows would use 1 Gig Etc etc
Wonder if Vista is the same way
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Originally posted by Krusty
Example: You used to hit CTRL ALT DEL and get a task manager. Now you get a splash-screen menu where you have to click "task manager".
CNTRL-ALT-DEL in XP didn't take you directly to taskmanager either. You get a menu in either one. The Vista menu just looks different but offers the exact same choices. Try CNTRL-SHIFT-ESC. Takes you directly to taskmanager, just like it does in XP.
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I've been using XP Pro since... forever! :P
I hit CTRL ALT DEL and I get the task manager. I'm doing it now!
EDIT: Will try CTRL SHFT ESC tho, didn't know about that one.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Now correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly Doesnt the Windows XP OS tend to use the same percentage of ram reguardless of how much ram you have?
I forget the exact percentages so for EXAMPLE ONLY Im going to say 1/2
So if you have 1 Gig or Ram Windows would use /1/2 a gig
2 Gigs of Ram Windows would use 1 Gig Etc etc
Wonder if Vista is the same way
I don't think so. I've got 1 GB installed and I bring up the Performance tab on my task manager and it says 245MB used (with IE and thunderbird open). This after a fresh reboot and just sending 1 e-mail.
EDIT: Wait, am I reading this wrong?
EDIT: I'm reading this wrong... You might be right, if I'm looking at my "physicak memory" area and it is about that. But I don't think it really uses that much. I'll defer to others though
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Originally posted by Krusty
I've been using XP Pro since... forever! :P
I hit CTRL ALT DEL and I get the task manager. I'm doing it now!
EDIT: Will try CTRL SHFT ESC tho, didn't know about that one.
It depends on if you're logged on as a user or you're the only user.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I've been using XP Pro since... forever! :P
I hit CTRL ALT DEL and I get the task manager. I'm doing it now!
EDIT: Will try CTRL SHFT ESC tho, didn't know about that one.
Same here I have never known that you could do it another way. BUT I am admin on every computer I use at home and work.
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Good point. Me too. Maybe if you have a "user" and not an "admin" user profile it'll bring up the NT box that has the buttons on it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't think so. I've got 1 GB installed and I bring up the Performance tab on my task manager and it says 245MB used (with IE and thunderbird open). This after a fresh reboot and just sending 1 e-mail.
EDIT: Wait, am I reading this wrong?
EDIT: I'm reading this wrong... You might be right, if I'm looking at my "physicak memory" area and it is about that. But I don't think it really uses that much. I'll defer to others though
Remember though. I was using the "1/2" statement as an example only.
I forget what the actual percentage is and you cant really check without shutting down whatever other proccesses are running as well
but the basic idea is. The more ram you have. the more ram windows uses for itself
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Here's something that really sucks for AH players in Vista if proven true. After searching high and low and finally posting a query on Technet, I finally received a respose from a forum moderator MS MVP person informing me that you can no longer create an alternate hardware profile with Vista on a desktop OS install. Laptops (Krusty can probably confirm this) more than likely have "docked" and "undocked" default profiles meaning you could at least reconfigure one of those for AH. Even so, what a biatch! Even if I were using a laptop I'd still want a third AH-specific profile.
I was also told that I might want to send a comment to MS in hope that they might release this feature in a service pack or hotfix. I would like to hear their rationale for dropping it in the first place.
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I haven't messed with hardware profiles. I don't recall seeing that screen in the system tabs, though.
I don't think it's there on laptops either.
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The only place you'll see the hardware profiles is when you look into the individual properties and logons for each service.
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I thought you meant under the system tab on XP, where you go to "Hardware" tab, then "Hardware Profiles" (a button) down by the bottom?
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Still nobody having the weird Vista halting problem with AH? Why must I be so unique...I want to conform! :)
Some more words about frame rate issues... I can't play any of my favorites without a very noticeable drop in frame rate. I read somewhere that Nvidia, even with monthly driver updates, is not planning on performance upgrades until well into summer. The next few months are just going to be repairing features that are broke in the vista driver.
While I'm the first one to line up with a torch and burn Microsoft at the stake....I have to wonder why the hardware companies are scrambling for drivers when Vista has been in development for a google years and even in beta for....many moons.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I thought you meant under the system tab on XP, where you go to "Hardware" tab, then "Hardware Profiles" (a button) down by the bottom?
Yeah, you don't have that in Vista. That's what I mean when I say the only reference there is to hardware profiles is in the logon properties for each service.
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Originally posted by republic
Still nobody having the weird Vista halting problem with AH? Why must I be so unique...I want to conform! :)
Nope. Still haven't seen that on this end. You must be one of The Chosen. :D
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Republic, it's not my laptop, and I'm not going to install Aces High on it, so I can't test it.
I'm never installing Vista on MY[/i] rig, so I won't be able to say if I have any problems :P
P.S. ^--- by that I mean not in at least 7-10 years, maybe the next OS will be out by then.
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Kinda funny I chanced on this thread...My Brother in law just got a new PC from Gateway about 4 days ago. It comes with Vista, and Gateway told him that nothing else was available.
I'm guessing that the value of new, In-the-box copies of XP Shot up over 50% over the last week, If everybody getting new OEM systems' have the same reaction: Trying to get, and Install XP over Vista.
That said...
I kinda have a question for you, skuzzy:Will HTC wind up basing everything on Vista eventually? And, if so, what is the impact for us gamers(especially the barely comp-literate ones like myself?)
By all accounts of everything I've read, Vista is gonna hurt performance in a big way.
Also, will it affect A Pentium or Intel based system more or less so over say, and Athlon rig?
Thanks in advance
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There is no reason for us to do anything specific to Vista right now. It is too early and the OS and all the drivers are too unstable.
I think we should quantify the performance loss with Vista and will be working on it.
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Is it possible that your AMD CPU is part of the problem? BUT what do I know.
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It's bizzaroworld. I'm gonna try it on my broadband at work this evening. I don't see how the modem would affect the system in the way it's being affected (effected?)...but I've seen much stranger things in the wacky world of PC troubleshooting....and it's the final variable I can remove from the equation...until I think of something else. :)
I have XP and can play just fine, just trying to get started on troubleshooting odd Vista issues. Troubleshooting is my bread and butter.
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Hopefully the backlash against vista is so strong that someone launches a competing OS. The only reason that microsoft is even in business is hype/timing. The original rollout was all vaporware and totally untracked IBM's much better OS. Sadly nobody has ever stepped up and actually competed (or been allowed to) with microsoft. It's taken well over a decade but I think circumstances are right. Dell and the other "box" makers are strapped, MS is so out of touch with reality they're losing the market they created.
I'd say by 2009 you'll have sony roll out a true OS specific to the "cell" if nothing else. Hopefully someone will roll out a competing OS for mainstream use....
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In the end, I don't believe more os choices is the answer. This is the one case where more choices, imho, would actually hurt the consumer. Windows has it's issues, and some of them are great....but a world of many choices of consumer operating systems would be a nightmare for "Joe user".
Lets say EA gets a kickback from Sony, so now you must have Sony's OS to run any EA games...but UBI signs a deal with...Apple, so now you have to have OSX to play any UBI games....and on and on. Having to have the specific OS for the specific hardware/software you want to use...could lead to needing several OS's installed just to use all the software you'd want.
Windows has become more than an OS. DOS, was an OS...Windows is a collection of many applications, network infrastructure, etc. What I'd like to see is a modular approach to Windows, sortof like Linux. I'd like my core OS that I boot into to be as streamlined and basic as possible...like the mini OS's built into consoles, PDA's, etc. Sell that cheap, then if I want all the 'other features' I can buy them.
For me, I don't need speech recognition...I don't need indexed searches (I use Google Desktop...which does a much better job)...I don't need Windows to hold my hand with it's incessant popups and warnings...I don't need the ability to restore a previous configuration, I can do that better myself...I don't need many of the things I pay for in the Windows bundle.
Vista is a step in the right direction, as far as version choice....but Microsoft shoots itself in the foot because while the basic versions are cheaper...they are just as bloated as their bigger brothers without the benefits they offer. So for a person who gets Home Basic...it's just as slow and inept as Ultimate...yet without the benefit of Ultimate 'oooh ahhh' apps.
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My new machine Is a all new build w/ a clean install of Ms Windows Vista Premium edeition that is specificlly intend for builders @ $109.0
Triumph Loves Vista
personified is defined as:
1. be perfect example of something: to be an embodiment or perfect example of something
****Issues are: My current Virus protection is not yet available for Vista.
:' ( They told me in about 2 weeks)
All drivers were updated from their mfg's web page
Running the game without issue for 5 days counting today.
My last PC setup would have choked on Vista
Come on in the water is fine...yea and...ahhhh...bring your check book
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
====================================================
Current Time = Mon Mar 26 22:31:06 2007 Pacific Daylight Time
Computer Name = TRIUMPH-PC
Number of Processors = 2
========== CPU ID Info ==========
Computer Name = TRIUMPH-PC
Number of Processors = 2
Processor 0:
Brand = Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6400 @ 2.13GHzBrand = Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6400 @ 2.13GHz
Processor 1:
Brand = Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6400 @ 2.13GHzBrand = Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6400 @ 2.13GHz
Current Time = Mon Mar 26 22:31:06 2007 Pacific Daylight Time
---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 8800 GTS
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0193&SUBSYS_C8153842&REV_A2
Display Memory: 1051 MB
Dedicated Memory: 284 MB
Shared Memory: 767 MB
Current Mode: 1280 x 1024 (32 bit) (75Hz)
Monitor: Generic PnP Monitor
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Uh oh. I think I can hear the villagers gathering now with their pitchforks and torches.
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In the meantime, the 52 other folks who cannot join the game because of problems with Vista would argue.
And those who are running it, are having to do so with much worse performance than XP Pro gave us.
And I will say it again. If your computer is running better with Vista than it did with XP Pro, it is simply due to poor management of your CP Pro system.
The water is not fine. It appears to have been bottled in Mexico.
If you spend an hour at MS's TechNet site, you would be running to the hills to get away from Vista.
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What are you talking about, Skuzzy? I LOVE Vista.
It just might be the end of the M$ monopoly.
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Yes children, drink the koolaid.... Vista is your friend...drink up little ones...
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Originally posted by Puck
What are you talking about, Skuzzy? I LOVE Vista.
It just might be the end of the M$ monopoly.
ROFL! Good one Puck.
But I fear, if Windows ME could not unseat that monopoly, then nothing will.
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hey does vista still use system32 files:confused:
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Skuzzy, the REAL evil behind vista, is the fact that MS is gonna drop support for every other system ASAP.
I guess it's time to get a backup copy set up for XP now, eh?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
But I fear, if Windows ME could not unseat that monopoly, then nothing will.
The difference, my dear sir, is that Vista proves Windows 2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, NT, 2000, ME, and XP were not isolated incidents of utter crapware. Vista is the NEW windows, completely re-engineered to not only be crappy, but pop up dialogs explaining that you don't have the correct DRM key to suffer through the crappiness.
Even my CTO (who incidentally wrote the original VB Outlook long ago) has finally admitted Vista is a dog. Personally I think he is insulting dogs everywhere, but then I'm ever so slightly biased.
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Had it, got rid of it! nuff said.
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Out of curiousity, I wonder how many of the asembled pitchfork wielding villagers here, besides Skuzzy, have actually used Vista for any period of time or even used it at all? Five minutes at a display machine in your local retailer doesn't count by the way.
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Originally posted by Irwink!
Out of curiousity, I wonder how many of the asembled pitchfork wielding villagers here, besides Skuzzy, have actually used Vista for any period of time or even used it at all? Five minutes at a display machine in your local retailer doesn't count by the way.
I am required by occupation to be intimately familiar with it. Have it on a virtual machine and a dual-core laptop. The more I use, the less I like. I work for a M$ Gold Certified partner, so we have an open license.
Don't like the new ribbons on Orifice 2007 either. Call me old fashioned. Visio 2007 is alright, though.
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Vista is still going strong....I still love it...No Issues...whatsoever Solid frame rate of 75 @ all times...no mystery discoz....
I'm not selling it...I'm just tellin it...:aok
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Good on ya. Just because you like it does not mean there are not serious problems with the OS. There are serious problems with it. Ranging from broken drivers, to compatibility problems, to flaky general operation.
And if you spent any time at Microsoft's own TechNet site, you would be concerned. You just think you are not having problems.
People cannot make informed decisions if they only get the glossed over opinion of an end user. Do some research and it is quite apparent this OS is not ready for prime time.
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Originally posted by Irwink!
Out of curiousity, I wonder how many of the asembled pitchfork wielding villagers here, besides Skuzzy, have actually used Vista for any period of time or even used it at all? Five minutes at a display machine in your local retailer doesn't count by the way.
Well we have started getting it on our new laptops.
Complaints, comments from users are -
Where is this now?
Why is it so slow?
etc etc.
So much so I am now at the stage were as soon as they are ordered I now go out and get an OEM WinXP Pro ready for them. (with the bosses blessing, he hated his Vista 'slowtop' also).
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Well that's a total of four people so far...
I now have it on a desktop and a laptop. On the desktop the only problem has been an occassional failure of IE to execute. That hasn't happened in over a week. On the laptop I haven't experienced a single hitch. Both machines are Core 2 Duo's so there's no problem with slow performance. I wonder what the hardware configuration was where users exclaimed how slow it was. I've also spent quite a bit of time on Technet too so I'm aware of the problems some people are having. But with the exception of the IE thing - no problems on this end.
I'm still very much reminded of a time five and a half years ago when the pitchfork wielders were up in arms over another new OS.
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It is slow. Very slow. My Core 2 Due system (ATI X1600XT) with Vista, runs the game slower than my home 1.8Ghz XP Pro system (ATI 8500).
It takes longer to boot (48 seconds) than either my old Windows 2000 system (32 seconds), or my home XP Pro system (16 seconds). It takes longer to do everything. It is not going to get faster. Vista has too many background processes/threads to be able to overcome that deficit. It is designed that way.
Unlike XP, which Microsoft did attempt to increase the performance of, Vista will not get significantly better. It would need to just to get back to where XP/2000 was in terms of performance.
Your problem seems to be one of a perspective where you had terrible XP systems. I find this true of every person who is making the claims you are making.
Again you cannot run more software, at the same time, and have it all run faster than running less software at the same time. If you have had poorly running XP systems, then it is your own fault. Why do people have a difficult time with that logic?
Maybe this analogy will help. Take a couple of Corvette's. On one, add armor plating, to protect the driver, add bulletproof glass, to protect the driver, add a full chromemoly roll cage to protect the driver, add heavy duty springs to hold the weight, reinforce the frame to support the weight, drop in a 4.56:1 axle ratio so it can move.
Now, take that Corvette (Vistat) and run it against the stock Corvette. That is essentially Vista versus XP. Vista cannto be faster. There is no way it can be faster. There is no way it will ever be faster. It will always be slower than a good installation of XP.
The problems at MS's TechNet site are real. I am having a ton of problems with Vista on my office system.
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Have any of you had the odd copy bug/feature where it takes 30+ seconds to copy even a 5kb text file? I've seen several sites mentioned it...seems like it happens to me quite often.
I gave Vista a good ol' college try...but I got tired of the oddities. Supreme Commander was nigh unplayable on my system...IL2 1946 had drastically reduced framerates. It may be years until nVidia/ATI can get driver performance back...course the newer and better GPU's will begin to mask the deficiencies of the OS by powering through them.
Vista had some neat ideas but most of them were cut or neutered. I've yet to find a single thing in Vista that performs better than XP, or a single thing I can do in Vista that I can't do in XP.
The updated UI is nice but...a far cry from OSX.
Honestly...I was hoping for Vista to be the OSX killer, so I could break my reliance on the egomaniac that is Steve Jobs.
What I don't understand....is why don't they just start from square 0? A new OS with what we know today. Virtualization Apps like Parallels can run XP at 75% efficiency, and gamers can always dual-boot for legacy game compatibility. Heck...build in dual boot from the getgo (OSX/OS9 Classic).
Think of what a company like Microsoft could do if they made their own Linux distro.... OSX killer indeed....
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It is slow. Very slow. My Core 2 Due system (ATI X1600XT) with Vista, runs the game slower than my home 1.8Ghz XP Pro system (ATI 8500).
It takes longer to boot (48 seconds) than either my old Windows 2000 system (32 seconds), or my home XP Pro system (16 seconds). It takes longer to do everything. It is not going to get faster. Vista has too many background processes/threads to be able to overcome that deficit. It is designed that way.
Unlike XP, which Microsoft did attempt to increase the performance of, Vista will not get significantly better. It would need to just to get back to where XP/2000 was in terms of performance.
Your problem seems to be one of a perspective where you had terrible XP systems. I find this true of every person who is making the claims you are making.
Again you cannot run more software, at the same time, and have it all run faster than running less software at the same time. If you have had poorly running XP systems, then it is your own fault. Why do people have a difficult time with that logic?
Skuzzy, I never had a poorly performing XP system. I never made any claim in this thread or any other that Vista outperformed XP. Therefore I don't have the "problem" that you claim. The desktop system I mentioned is set up to dual boot. The XP side install is less than six months old and totally uncluttered. I am able to make direct comparisons between two fairly fresh installs. AHII does perform better under XP. I have stated such in this forum. Like it or not Vista is here and one day XP will not. Who knows, maybe Vista will go the way of ME and be replaced by something better? The point is that people have a choice to make - hang on to XP as long as its still viable, move to some Linux distro or the Mac world with the attendant trade offs that come with reduced support in software/hardware base to choose from or stay with Microsoft's current offering. Like it or not the largest user base for any OS will dictate who has the most software, etc. to choose from. Third party support will follow the masses.
I currently do not choose to shift over entirely to Linux or a Mac for the above stated reasons. At some point I will have to confront Vista at work, like it or not. That is reality. I believe that just happened to you. I prefer to learn it and be used to it before that happens. Advances in hardware will offset the "slowness" of Vista that is most apparent on machines using yesterday's hardware. The same thing happened in 2001. Gaming is not the biggest thing in my life. For now though I still mostly run AH and two other of what will shortly be called "legacy" games under XP. NO, I didn't call AH a legacy game - I mean the other two. For applications I haven't sat around with a stopwatch timing boot times and application performance. Personal perception does just fine for me and probably the majority of users. I do not perceive any slowdown in application performance. Its not wishful thinking on my part. I have no interest in being a Bill Gates/MS lover and groupie or a pitchfork wielding MS hater/Bill Gates-is-the-Devil angry villager either. Once again, it is what it is.
I have stayed on the sidelines for most of this discussion. I haven't been nor am I now interested in a pissing match of words to see who will be declared the "winner" with the attendant laurels of the AH forum. Vista is here. XP will die. Eventually Vista will be replaced with something else. Its real simple. Those who don't like what MS offers are free to vote with their feet. They always have been.
Republic - I have read the Technet threads and others re: the extreme lag with file copy/transfer times. I don't doubt that its happening for some but I personally have not seen it either in local disk or network operations so far.
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I have a problem when anyone comes into the the forums and makes blanket statements about how good Vista is. All of a sudden, I get phone calls and emails raking me over the coals as people read these things and it sets thier perspective.
With said perspective set, they go ballistic when it does not run right and they blame us (HTC) for the problems.
So, whenever anyone remotely alludes to Vista being peachy-keen, I will be right behind them to help reduce the expectation that something like that sets.
And it is not matter of what you like. MS is forcing this down everyone's throat. Of course, as a monopoly they can do that.
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I have a problem when anyone comes into the the forums and makes blanket statements about how good Vista is. All of a sudden, I get phone calls and emails raking me over the coals as people read these things and it sets thier perspective.
With said perspective set, they go ballistic when it does not run right and they blame us (HTC) for the problems.
So, whenever anyone remotely alludes to Vista being peachy-keen, I will be right behind them to help reduce the expectation that something like that sets.
And it is not matter of what you like. MS is forcing this down everyone's throat. Of course, as a monopoly they can do that.
I'm assuming that was directed at me? If so please direct to me to where I have made a blanket statement about how good or peachy keen Vista is.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I have a problem when anyone comes into the the forums and makes blanket statements about how good Vista is. All of a sudden, I get phone calls and emails raking me over the coals as people read these things and it sets thier perspective.
With said perspective set, they go ballistic when it does not run right and they blame us (HTC) for the problems.
So, whenever anyone remotely alludes to Vista being peachy-keen, I will be right behind them to help reduce the expectation that something like that sets.
Anyone reading this thread has read good and bad and can decide for themselves. Nothing here even remotely suggests HTC "endorses" Vista. Hell, there's an entire running AH under LINUX tutorial thread that has gone unmolested by someone that seems to believe he only replies out of an obligation to HTC.
Reading your posts, Windows 2000 and LINUX would be "recommended by HTC".
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I did not say you made a blanket statement. But you alluded to Vista being fine. It is not fine, by a long shot.
Originally posted by Mini D
Anyone reading this thread has read good and bad and can decide for themselves. Nothing here even remotely suggests HTC "endorses" Vista. Hell, there's an entire running AH under LINUX tutorial thread that has gone unmolested by someone that seems to believe he only replies out of an obligation to HTC.
Reading your posts, Windows 2000 and LINUX would be "recommended by HTC".
Well then you can answer the calls about Vista and support emails I have to deal with. If a recommendation for an OS is to be made, then it would be 2000 or XP. They both are far more stable than Vista, at this time, and they both run the game very well.
Vista is a crapshoot, at this time. Will it get better? I hope so. But will it ever be as fast as XP on the same hardware? I doubt it.
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My old man uses Vista on his Alienware desktop and just finds it to be a snail with 'racing stripes' on it's shell. i would have to agree, i am going to stick with my windows xp media edition for the time being. it's slightly more 'vista,ish' thatn xp home edition but stil speedy. and can't see the piont in paying the money when my current operating system works nicely and does what i need it to without hogging all the CPU's attention lol.
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So we cannot say positive things about Vista? I think this is going a little too far.
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Vista has advantages; I just can't think of any right now. If you want eye candy get a Mac; Vista is 5 years behind with interface, 15 years behind the kernel, and will never get close to the efficiency. MacOS is just another X-Windows, not unlike Gnome or KDE.
Skuzzy's just frustrated by people who buy Vista and think the problems are caused by the software (AH in this case). Microsloth encourages that behavior to the point of actually SAYING the problem is not theirs, when the fact is Vista STILL uses a VMS kernel and is only about 2/3rds baked.
If you can run it with no hiccups, GREAT! More power to you. Wait a few months. Linked libraries, like gravity, will get you eventually.
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Vista is teh rock:rolleyes: :lol
Psyche
is this how skuzz feels about vista :confused:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r10/tomovuk/A07.gif)
sorry about the gore on the above if it offended you
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Skuzzy never said anything to the regards of running AH in a linux enviroment and pritty much left linux users to there own means ... The same thing for mac .
I'm shure you guys will get some support for Vista ,,, but i wouldnt expect to much until they get the driver bugs and truly figure out how to get Vista to "step aside" when you open a game . then again they may never let Directx take over vista enough to even make it a good gaming platform at all .
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I for one will continue to use XP for years to come. Even if they stop activating it - where there's a will there's a way.
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Originally posted by Connection
So we cannot say positive things about Vista? I think this is going a little too far.
Never said no one could. But, depending on what you say and/or how you say it, you could mislead someone.
I use Vista everyday now. I have yet to find anything that Vista will do, XP cannot do. And there are many things XP does better than Vista. Like run our game better (less overhead, smoother game play. The DirectX 'Hardware Abstraction Layer' has been dumped for all versions of DirectX, except DirectX 10, resulting in poorer performance for any non-DirectX 10 game). Better sound card support (MS yanked the DirectSound API. Creative Labs is being forced to resurrect it, but it will only work for Creative Labs sound cards now). Better overall administrative support (try shutting down security center now, or the software license background process and watch what happens). I could on for quite some time.
I have to deal with people, on a daily basis, who cannot get the game to run under Vista, at all. It is frustrating for me not to be able to help them.
So, someone comes in here and reads the wonderful praises for Vista and decides to go for it. Then they find the game does not work on thier system and we are out a customer. That reality plays itself out everyday. It is very frustrating. What any one of you fail to realize is that there are many computers out there which are having extremely difficult times with Vista.
I have to deal with them everyday. There are serious problems I cannot find work-arounds for. As we are stuck with this OS, HTC has to suffer through a period of time where people will not be able to subscribe as they, nor I, can get the game to work on thier computer.
So when I appear to jump on someone for saying nice things about Vista, it is strictly from the frustration of how much this is actually costing HTC (and me). How many of you would be so quick to be content with something that is having a negative impact on your livelihood?
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5 Good things about Vista:
The box Vista comes in is very pretty, especially my Ultimate Edition box. I would say that the Vista box performs 83% better than the XP box in a variety of aplications.
#1. It's plastic, it can endure moisture 100% better than the flimsy cardboard XP box.
#2. Customizable to your wallet. If you wallet is light, there's a green version for you, if you have a corporate account, there's a blue box, and if you have the benefit of someone else buying it for you for "evaluation purposes" there's the magnificent black box.
#3. No giant explosion graphics exclaiming "Now with more cow bell!!!"
#4. Opening the box is a fun activity for the whole family, even grandma!
#5. One corner is rounded! I mean...it's GENIUS!!! You think it's a square at first but the...BAM! Microsoft just slapped you with innovation*!!!
*No actual innovation contained or implied therein hitherto ad nauseum associated with Vista and or any Microsoft(R) products.
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Hehe, good one republic. :)
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:D don't forget that u can whack people upside the head with the vista box as well
and i wont be getting vista for a long time,heck my system is so weak that it only maxes out at about 20fps on AH with XP
:noid oh yea if bill gates ever comes to HTC just throw a vista computer at him :D
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Originally posted by Mini D
Reading your posts, Windows 2000 and LINUX would be "recommended by HTC".
Well at least 2000 has a proper thread handler that works, unlike Vista.
Vista locks a thread to a core / CPU because MS either -
a) Couldn't fix the thread handler.
b) Couldn't be bothered fixing the thread handler.
2000 will float threads between cores / CPU's to balance the load as it changes.
Even XP's thread handler is marginally better than Vistas.
Noticed Dell have now gone back to offering Win XP on new laptops in place of Vista.
wonder why? teehee.
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So, OFF topic, how does AH work under Windoze Server 2003?
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I really do not know.
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See Rule #4, #5
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Originally posted by Connection
You may not be making an outright rule on what we may or not say, yet at the same time you are making it very specific that we better hold back our opinions if they differ from yours, or else there could be consequences. At best, we can disagree with you but we have to thread VERY lightly.
I have to deal with people, on a daily basis, who cannot get the game to run under Vista, at all. It is frustrating for me not to be able to help them.
This isn't against anyone specific but think about it.
Some bonehead like me is thinking of building a new computer to play aces high. He reads all these posts (On the aces high website) saying that there's nothing wrong with vista and that it's the way to go.
So mr. bonehead orders all his parts, then slaps it all together only to find that when playin aces high the game doesn't run as good as xp did.
Vista is new, it's supposed to be better, since i read it all right here (on the aces high website). Since vista is newer and better, it must be htc's fault.
I'm actually really glad i've been following this thread, because i like this game alot, and if skuzzy and everyone else who's against it, was saying how great vista was, and i bought it and installed it on my new computer, only to find out that it's got alot of issues, and wasn't what it's cracked up to be, i'd be kinda pissed.
And being an adult who plays video games my first reaction would be to tell my friends that htc are jerks for telling me to buy super vista when there game, and i'm sure a bunch of others don't work to well with it. :lol
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hey i think vista might outperform my old 98'(just let me put it back together :lol)
i think Vista might have an advantage somewheres we just haven't found it:rolleyes:
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While I'm far from a fan of Vista, I do have to say I believe the performance will increase as time goes on. ATI/AMD and nVidia have to start from square one, so it will take some time to get performance close to XP levels...but it will never be as fast as XP on the same system.
It's been that way with every release of Windows...but with Vista it's been much more drastic. (At least in my experience). Some of my games run up to 25% slower, others only slightly slower.
But really...it's not the game performance that keeps me from using Vista, because I know that will improve. It's the oddities, crashes, and bugs (45 seconds to move a 15kb text file?).
I'll be the first to admit that I am not your standard "Joe user", so the "issues" I see may never be seen by many people....but the fact remains that they ARE there. Does XP have bugs, you bet!
Vista will get better, I don't think it's a good OS, I hate that we waited so long for the POS that it is...but through sheer force of will (money) Microsoft will make it as good as XP....they have no alternative.
If you are stuck with Vista, is it the end of the world? No. But as someone who's life is IT...it's a slap in the face.
Vista UAC implementation alone is enough to drive someone to drink....
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Connection, you want to drag this out in public, fine. Let's get this straight. Mini D was banned for continued personal attacks after being privately warned to stop. Yet, that really is none of your business is it?
Furious was banned for being completely out of line towards a member of HTC.. Again, not any of your business.
But your self-righteous indignation over something, which is none of your business, would not prevent you from making an abusive, inflammatory, and disrespectful post, would it? It would not prevent you from making an attempt to keep it private, would it? Oh no, you had to air for all to see as you just knew you are so right. From your perspective, we at HTC shold just take any abuse dealt to us?
If you do not like it then you can leave as well. I am tired of the people who think they have some right to abuse members of the community and HTC. And I am really tired of people like you who come in here and support it by making yet another personal attack over something which is none of your business. Consider this your warning.