Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Movie on January 28, 2007, 03:41:10 PM
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why do most pilots consider the spitfire as a dweeb plane?
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Originally posted by Movie
why do most pilots consider the spitfire as a dweeb plane?
Speed + Maneuverability + lift +weapons loadout = dweeb. Mostly its the Spixteen thats dweeby, because it does things no plane has any right to do. I fly the Spitfire mk IX myself, because it has the turn rate, slightly worse than the mk V, it has the extraordinary lift, but despite that it still takes skill to fly. The Spixteen can be flown by a 4 year old, because no matter where you pull the stick, what maneuver you try, and what speed you fly at, it will always recover. That is not natural.
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WOW THATS KINDA BULL . I MYSELF FLY THE MK V AND LAND OVER 10+ KILLS
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Originally posted by Movie
why do most pilots consider the spitfire as a dweeb plane?
Cause the people that get shot down by them need a derogatory remark to make on 200/BBS to attempt to discredit the pilot that shot them down, thus making them feel better.
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i myself hate the spit as much as you guys do, but the only thing i like the about those spits is that how they die. i fly 109 like all the time and 109 kill spit like a monkey peeling a banana. :D and i agree with Serenity about noobs flying spit because it's so easy to control.
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Hey guys !
You may be right on many aspects regarding the Spitfire being an easy plane to fly for new pilots;)
Don't forget that there is pilots like me that ENJOY flying the spitfire whatever the mark...
Actually I'll admit playing the game because of the SPITFIRE;)
I want to learn it and hopefully with time will be a good pilot.
Maybe in the future I will meet you in the skies and for anyone's interest, taking a "cocky" attitude towards the spitfire coming at you could be MISTAKE #1. Once the SPITFIRE has shot you down(or give you a good scrap win or lose), check out the pilot's score on the roster, you will see that he's not a DWEEB but a good above average SPITFIRE pilot.:aok
Just a thought !
ps. I love meeting a 109 ! Always a good fight !
Until next time !
Phil
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Originally posted by titanic3
i myself hate the spit as much as you guys do, but the only thing i like the about those spits is that how they die. i fly 109 like all the time and 109 kill spit like a monkey peeling a banana. :D and i agree with Serenity about noobs flying spit because it's so easy to control.
theres a big difference here. NOOB pilots choose the 16 instead of the MK V as in more experienced pilots pick. The MK V is a awesome plane especially when i shoot down 109's when they turn, going down like flies
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Originally posted by Movie
WOW THATS KINDA BULL . I MYSELF FLY THE MK V AND LAND OVER 10+ KILLS
I rest my case...
But really, the Mk V is nothing like the Spixteen. But it IS a damned good turner. Any Bf-109 who tries to turn with a Spitfire mk V needs a labotamy. Really. My case is only against the spixteen, because that truely is dweeby. But the other marks are pretty good as far as capability/n00b ratio.
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Originally posted by Movie
why do most pilots consider the spitfire as a dweeb plane?
I think it's more that people consider it to be a beginner's plane. All marks above the V do almost everything better than virtually any other plane, and they're easy to fly. Climb great, turn great, hold their energy well (they're probably the best of all planes in which to practice throttle control), have fantastic armament because of the Hizookas, very forgiving stall and spin qualities - there just isn't anything to complain about, EXCEPT that they aren't as fast as some other planes. Their real-life short range isn't a significant factor in AH, although it probably will be when CT comes out.
In the late war arenas, I think that it's probably hard to do well in our present version of the V. In all arenas the I is very challenging, because its guns are so weak. But if you fly the 8 through 16, many folks will think that you are either new - in which case you SHOULD be flying the spit! - or that you're still using training wheels after you've learned to ride the bike.
- oldman
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Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
Ditto
Bronk
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Originally posted by Karnak
Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
wow. Nail on the head right there. I started flying the Spitfire mk IX not because of its performance but because I was watching Spitfire Ace, and it got me in the nostalgic mood. I refuse to fly Spixteen though, because that is just not a true Spitfire with those dreadful clipped wings...
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What about all the clipped Mk V, IX, XII, and seafires.
Guess they aren't true spits either?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
What about all the clipped Mk V, IX, XII, and seafires.
Guess they aren't true spits either?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
No, they arent. The Spixteen E is a real spitfire, because it doesnt have the clipped wings. But those eliptical wings are what made it famous. Remove those and its just another fighter.
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The Spixteen isn't even the ultimate merlin Spit, - they also had the IX with +25 boost :D, - clipped and optimized for lower alts.
Spixteen is also good on Lala dweebs :D
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My issue with Spitfires is mainly that they comprise in game a far larger portion of the aircraft one encounters than they ever did in any theater (including the Battle of Britain). Aside from that, they're so easy to fly that they do allow a considerably inferior flier to get kills on a superior pilot. This is particularly true of the later Spitfires, which not only maneuver better than nearly all of their opponents but are also faster.
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Welcome back Angus.
Did you learn any good trolling tips while on the fishing boat? ;) :D
Some people just can't accept that the Spitfire was such a good a/c. :cool:
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Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
Which is I respect some of the dedicated RAF fans in the game. However, you're not dumb Karnak. You know which kind of people we're talking about.
I don't think there's any denying that some people just don't care about the "fight" itself. All they want is to win, and what better tool for victory than a plane that does (almost) everything better than the opponent's?
Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.
However, it is undeniably detrimental to the quality of the game in that such preferences for the "best of everything" just kills whatever small amount of 'variety' we may actually come to enjoy. It's just one of things which no one can blame on an individual level, but becomes dangerously erratic and degenerate when it emregs as a collective.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Aside from that, they're so easy to fly that they do allow a considerably inferior flier to get kills on a superior pilot.
I'm not sure I follow this logic.
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Originally posted by Movie
why do most pilots consider the spitfire as a dweeb plane?
Because its the only plane that +Dead can get any kills in.
-Sik
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Welcome back Angus.
Did you learn any good trolling tips while on the fishing boat? ;) :D
Some people just can't accept that the Spitfire was such a good a/c. :cool:
Hey Milo, and TY.
I'm back, but will be a frequent "leaver" untill summer.
Yes, indeed, the Spitty was in RL a formidable fighter in the Air to air role, and as well the western Allies fighter built in greatest numbers, as well as serving through the whole war, so for an allied fighter, it was a common sight.
Imagine the whines if there was a +25 IX ccc, or if the XIV was adjusted to RL turn and ROC (or has it been done?), or if there was a Mk21 :D
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Originally posted by Karnak
Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
:aok
Also does anybody remember when the Spit IX was the dweeb ride before the Spit 16 came along? And the Niki was referred in this fashion also
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
My issue with Spitfires is mainly that they comprise in game a far larger portion of the aircraft one encounters than they ever did in any theater (including the Battle of Britain). Aside from that, they're so easy to fly that they do allow a considerably inferior flier to get kills on a superior pilot. This is particularly true of the later Spitfires, which not only maneuver better than nearly all of their opponents but are also faster.
*shakes head*
1st we do not have any true late war spits.
Max boost for spits is 18 lbs, which is a '43 setting.
Spits are NOT faster. This is with the exception of the Mk XIV.
Without wep on spits are in the lower 1/3 of AC in game.
They are however very quick accelerating. So once you start the fight with one don't get slow .
Better thank your lucky stars HT didn't add the Mk XII.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Angus
The Spixteen isn't even the ultimate merlin Spit, - they also had the IX with +25 boost :D, - clipped and optimized for lower alts.
Spixteen is also good on Lala dweebs :D
Same plane angus just with Packard built merlin.
Bronk
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Well, +25 instead of +18.
Was the Packard also a "ccc"?
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Originally posted by Serenity
wow. Nail on the head right there. I started flying the Spitfire mk IX not because of its performance but because I was watching Spitfire Ace, and it got me in the nostalgic mood. I refuse to fly Spixteen though, because that is just not a true Spitfire with those dreadful clipped wings...
Clipped spits are better because you can do so many things in spits with slight increase of roll. Clipped spits olny appeared in numbers when twittlers in the Channel Front massacred so many full winged spits in 1942 alone. Clipped spits enabled them to keep up with twittlers in roll and dive.
From mid-war to the end of WWII, I think the Spitfire's main nemesis was the dreaded Fw 190, not the 109.
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Originally posted by Angus
Well, +25 instead of +18.
Was the Packard also a "ccc"?
No Angus only the Mk Vs were ccc.
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bottom line spitfire can own most all planes maybe the zeke only when the pilot makes a mistake.
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if im on a good day i might beable to give a spit pilot a good run for the money with my Il:aok
Spit pilots tend to ignore the Il dancing around them and die:D (from what ive seen in h2h)
:noid
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Originally posted by 1K3
Clipped spits are better because you can do so many things in spits with slight increase of roll. Clipped spits olny appeared in numbers when twittlers in the Channel Front massacred so many full winged spits in 1942 alone. Clipped spits enabled them to keep up with twittlers in roll and dive.
From mid-war to the end of WWII, I think the Spitfire's main nemesis was the dreaded Fw 190, not the 109.
I understand. Its still not a Spitfire to me, its something else. More effective sure, but not the Spitfire I loved when I was 8, nor the Spitfire I want to fly now in memory of the battle of Britan. In fact, my favorite Spitfire in the game is the mk I because it really is a true Spitfire. But then it was the first so of course. But yeah, the clipped Spitfires should be called Spitfi's to indicate being clipped ;) :D
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Kweassa,
Yes, I know who they are talking about. The problem lies in the fact that they do not know who they are talking about.
You can only be blasted for flying easymode when you are just flying your favorite fighter due to its history, not in game perfrmance, so many times before you start getting really crabby with people.
That was one of the big reasons I looked for another fighter to take up, and in AH1 the Mossie was a lot of fun. In AH2 the Mossie is vastly harder, so I just let the game go. The Ki-84 is good, but it just doesn't have my interest like the Spitfire or Mosquito.
Serenity,
I agree about the clipped wings. I will always take a full span Spitfire over a clipped Spitfire. The same would be true of razorback vs bubble canopy if that was an issue. In AH2 my personal preference is the Spitfire Mk VIII.
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I don't fly spits much, but I do like the Seafire and Spit MK1, 5, 8, 9, and 14. I truly don't think theres any thing wrong about the 14, only that its really fast, but its just kinda like another spit. The Spit 16 is complety different. That thing has climb, dive, speed, turning and roll and every time I get one on my six, noob or vet I just give up. No matter what I do he is always behind me, then Boom pilot wound and then I'm dead. I think the Spit 16 is a little to easy to fly. Thats the only spit I'll never take up.
Once I was doing 500mph in a dive with a P51D and over shot a spit 16 flying straight probably doing about 275-325mph and I pulled up and climbed at 525mph and the 16 beat me at a climb and shot me down. I don't know how, but it did. I climbed like 6k and started stalling (HEHE I got this noob) then I look back and his 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 900, 800, 700, then BOOM! Thats why I hate it so much. Its just a bug always following you around, and you can't get it away from you.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Serenity,
I agree about the clipped wings. I will always take a full span Spitfire over a clipped Spitfire. The same would be true of razorback vs bubble canopy if that was an issue. In AH2 my personal preference is the Spitfire Mk VIII.
Wow, exactly the same here! For example, my favorite P-47 is the D-11 because of the razorback. I fly the Spitfire mk IX. I like the symmetry of the VIII and IX, but 9 is my luck number so...
And Voo, I hear ya. The 14's torque makes up for its ability in difficulty. After flying it and hearing Bob Tuck's description of it, I could never criticise anyone who does well in one. In fact I have NEVER seen anyone land two victories in an XIV. And hey, I have pulled out of a 500 mph+ dive in a 262 and been cought from dead six by a Spitfire mk XVI who had just taken off. I managed to talk a friend into scraping the spitfire off me, but that is just an impossible sprint on his part. Ive also seen one hover. He pulled up to follow my Bf-109, but he was a n00b and ran out of ammo without causing any damage. He cought up to me in the climb after running out, so he was right off my wing, not more than 10 feet away. he stalled first, me seconds later, but I passed him in the descent, and left him falling at no more than 100ft a minute and maintaining a nice level path, with no spin. He just hovered in the stall position, and it recovered on its own, while I had to really work my Messerschmitt out of that stall. This plane is not real. It does things no plane has any right to do. For those of you who want to fly a helicopter, fly the Spitfire XVI. I am PROUD to say I dont have a single flight in the Spitfire mk XVI in the MAs, EVER. Not ONE flight since I started here, and I refuse to ever fly one. I flew an La-7 once, so that part of my record is already tainted, but I intend to be 'clean' when it comes to this particular UFO.
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Oh, and I too like the Mossie. Before playing AH my favorite ever planes were (In order of favoritism, and not including bombers):
Bf-109
Mosquito T III
P-38J
P-40/ Kittyhawk mk III
P-63
Spitfire
I have always favored, and always will favor twin engined planes over single engine, both in real life and in games. I prefered the single, solid tail of the mosquito over the P-38, as well as the two seats side by side. In fact the only reason the Mosquito wasnt number one is those Iron Crosses on the Bf-109... theres just something about them...
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Originally posted by Serenity
Wow, exactly the same here! For example, my favorite P-47 is the D-11 because of the razorback. I fly the Spitfire mk IX. I like the symmetry of the VIII and IX, but 9 is my luck number so...
And Voo, I hear ya. The 14's torque makes up for its ability in difficulty. After flying it and hearing Bob Tuck's description of it, I could never criticise anyone who does well in one. In fact I have NEVER seen anyone land two victories in an XIV. And hey, I have pulled out of a 500 mph+ dive in a 262 and been cought from dead six by a Spitfire mk XVI who had just taken off. I managed to talk a friend into scraping the spitfire off me, but that is just an impossible sprint on his part. Ive also seen one hover. He pulled up to follow my Bf-109, but he was a n00b and ran out of ammo without causing any damage. He cought up to me in the climb after running out, so he was right off my wing, not more than 10 feet away. he stalled first, me seconds later, but I passed him in the descent, and left him falling at no more than 100ft a minute and maintaining a nice level path, with no spin. He just hovered in the stall position, and it recovered on its own, while I had to really work my Messerschmitt out of that stall. This plane is not real. It does things no plane has any right to do. For those of you who want to fly a helicopter, fly the Spitfire XVI. I am PROUD to say I dont have a single flight in the Spitfire mk XVI in the MAs, EVER. Not ONE flight since I started here, and I refuse to ever fly one. I flew an La-7 once, so that part of my record is already tainted, but I intend to be 'clean' when it comes to this particular UFO.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Joo R t3h FuNnAy
Bronk
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Originally posted by Serenity
Speed + Maneuverability + lift +weapons loadout = dweeb. Mostly its the Spixteen thats dweeby, because it does things no plane has any right to do. I fly the Spitfire mk IX myself, because it has the turn rate, slightly worse than the mk V, it has the extraordinary lift, but despite that it still takes skill to fly. The Spixteen can be flown by a 4 year old, because no matter where you pull the stick, what maneuver you try, and what speed you fly at, it will always recover. That is not natural.
One day when you get old enough, you'll learn that it's not the plane. And the Spitfire Mk IX is easier to fly than the Spitfire XVI.
Please, show us the written documents that show the modeling of the Spitfire XVI is incorrect like you allude. Or are you basing your experience from the few passenger hops you've had in a glider?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Karnak
Except some of us actually signed up to fly the Spitfire because we LIKE the Spitfire.
To some of us, it is just as much about the Spitfire and its story as the Bf109, Fw190 and P-38 are to the fans of those fighters.
The fact that it is just a great all round fighter in AH is beyond our control.
Well said...for a Dweebfire driver! hehe...just kiddin' but you did nail it in the head with your post.
Maybe one day the kiddies like Serenity will realize that it really isn't important what other players fly as long as they are having fun whatever plane they are in. This notion about La7's or Spitfires being dweeb planes is silly and usually started by those who's egos have been bruised.
And Serenity since you've labeled the Spitfire a dweeb's plane then you're part of that group since you admittedly fly a Spitfire. Remember, next time you point at someone else, you have four fingers pointing back right at you.
ack-ack
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yo titanic i just nailed u like twice with the MK V. Did like a hammer head
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Originally posted by Airscrew
:aok
Also does anybody remember when the Spit IX was the dweeb ride before the Spit 16 came along? And the Niki was referred in this fashion also
For a few tours prior to AH2 the Vc had replaced the IX as the main Spit ride.
Once the Vc was made an earlier Vb (remodel) and the XVI introduced it became the main Spit ride.
Still love to see the whines if a 25lbs boost XVI was introduced.
Please fix the XIV!!!!!!
Of course you realise our XVI isn't a XVI at all, check the FTH, it shows it is actualy a mid 1944 LF IXe. XVI had a FTH 1000ft higher.
This would mean it could have +25lbs boost as of May 1944.
XVI's only got cleared for +25lbs boost Dec 1944.
Few nights ago during which both us and the Rooks were ENY'd ended up in a 1 on 1 (rare) fight with me in a Vb v 109F.
3 Spits missing to complete the line-up now -
Vc with Merlin 55M (double for Seafire L III)
XII
F.21
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You take any pilot that's decent (not even "good") from any other plane and put him in a spitfire, and he becomes a god, killing left and right. You take any decent pilot from a spitfire and put it in any other plane and he will become the lowest of the greenhorn newbies.
The spitfires in this game require no skill to get kills. Literally, all you do is point your nose at the enemy and you can kill them. I once took up a spit16 when they were new. My field was under attack by a P38 jabo mission and there were B24s. Well 3 of us took off, climbed up into the already-high attacking enemy, and killed them all before they got to the field. Even the P38s that had alt and speed, jettisoned their ord, and fought with us had no prayer at all.
This plane climbs over 3500fpm without WEP as it passes 10k. Most planes can't do that WITH WEP on the deck.
This plane can and does accelerate like the flight model is bullflop. I have (many many many many times) been zooming past a runway at 300+ mph and at least 5k alt, seen a spit16 taking off, only to have it zoom straight up after pulling its gear off. I have (on several occasions) nosed up to rope said spitfire, and he just got closer and closer and closer, shooting me down before I even got the chance to stall out.
I've dove on a spit16 that was doing 300 on the deck in a 109K-4. My dive was a fast one, going 450+mph. The spitfire breaks at 800 yards so hard that I can see him top-down (even though my plane is level) and he loops around blowing all his speed. I look back and he falls back to 1.5k then 2k, then he comes back to 1.5k and then 1k. and then shoot my wing off with a single hispano ping at 800 yards. My speed was still over 400mph (far more than spitfire's top speed at this alt).
This has happened several times in similar setups, and others have reported it as well.
Either this plane is bullflop, or there's a lot of cheaters out there. I think it's the first. Please note I have enough stick time in them to know what I'm talking about from both sides of the issue.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
No Angus only the Mk Vs were ccc.
Are you sure that Broadhurst's IX's with + 25 weren't at least clipped (at will), or at least modded on the turbo (cropped?)
Maybe Guppy can fill us in on that one?
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WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEE
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Originally posted by Krusty
You take any pilot that's decent (not even "good") from any other plane and put him in a spitfire, and he becomes a god, killing left and right. You take any decent pilot from a spitfire and put it in any other plane and he will become the lowest of the greenhorn newbies.
The spitfires in this game require no skill to get kills. Literally, all you do is point your nose at the enemy and you can kill them. I once took up a spit16 when they were new. My field was under attack by a P38 jabo mission and there were B24s. Well 3 of us took off, climbed up into the already-high attacking enemy, and killed them all before they got to the field. Even the P38s that had alt and speed, jettisoned their ord, and fought with us had no prayer at all.
This plane climbs over 3500fpm without WEP as it passes 10k. Most planes can't do that WITH WEP on the deck.
This plane can and does accelerate like the flight model is bullflop. I have (many many many many times) been zooming past a runway at 300+ mph and at least 5k alt, seen a spit16 taking off, only to have it zoom straight up after pulling its gear off. I have (on several occasions) nosed up to rope said spitfire, and he just got closer and closer and closer, shooting me down before I even got the chance to stall out.
I've dove on a spit16 that was doing 300 on the deck in a 109K-4. My dive was a fast one, going 450+mph. The spitfire breaks at 800 yards so hard that I can see him top-down (even though my plane is level) and he loops around blowing all his speed. I look back and he falls back to 1.5k then 2k, then he comes back to 1.5k and then 1k. and then shoot my wing off with a single hispano ping at 800 yards. My speed was still over 400mph (far more than spitfire's top speed at this alt).
This has happened several times in similar setups, and others have reported it as well.
Either this plane is bullflop, or there's a lot of cheaters out there. I think it's the first. Please note I have enough stick time in them to know what I'm talking about from both sides of the issue.
Thats its biggest asset its climb rate.
Rolls Royce sacrificed overall top speed for a phenominal climb rate and acceleration with the Merlin 66.
Later the Griffon series started the shift the other way, concentrating more on speed.
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Originally posted by Angus
Are you sure that Broadhurst's IX's with + 25 weren't at least clipped (at will), or at least modded on the turbo (cropped?)
Maybe Guppy can fill us in on that one?
Thought it was only the late model Vc's and Seafire L III that were clipped and cropped.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
One day when you get old enough, you'll learn that it's not the plane. And the Spitfire Mk IX is easier to fly than the Spitfire XVI.
Please, show us the written documents that show the modeling of the Spitfire XVI is incorrect like you allude. Or are you basing your experience from the few passenger hops you've had in a glider?
ack-ack
Im basing this on the fact that:
1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude
2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds
3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating.
I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things.
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Film ?
Or just more bullflop.
Bronk
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Kev I'm at several thousand feet already, high speed. When I zoom up I'm going well past 6-8k in alt. Even at BEST climb, low on the deck, the spixteen can only do ~5000 fpm, it should take it well over 60-120 seconds to get up to me, by which time I've looped around and am positioning for kill. Instead it's still vertically nose high and gaining in under 40 seconds.
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Originally posted by Serenity
Im basing this on the fact that:
1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude
2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds
3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating.
I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things.
Sure you have. Any verifiable proof other than "I've seen it do that"?
ack-ack
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Does seem a bit far-fetched
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Too bad the Spit 1 is the best of the bunch. Especially landing kills in the LWA's.
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"1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude"
Post a film.
"2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds"
Post a film.
"3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating."
Post a film
"I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things."
...ya, sure you have. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Serenity
No, they arent. The Spixteen E is a real spitfire, because it doesnt have the clipped wings. But those eliptical wings are what made it famous. Remove those and its just another fighter.
Oh Serenity,where did we go wrong! :)
They clipped Spits from the V to the XIV. Clipped Spits were in operation in early 43.
You go tell these guys they weren't flying real Spitfires. These are my guys from 41 and 91 Squadron who flew the Spit XII in 1943-44 and who did quite well in it. I have talked to them and they claim they were flying Spits.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1115831054_tangmere-wing.jpg)
And if you want I'll post pics of a full span, combat Spitfire XVI while posting pics of clipped wing Spitfire IXs and VIIIs.
Don't start making generalizations about the Spit until you've done some REALLY serious reading please.
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Oh, btw, "alt-r" for films there guy.
...Offline or online, with any fuel load you like.
Im getting the popcorn and a corona ready. :D
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
My issue with Spitfires is mainly that they comprise in game a far larger portion of the aircraft one encounters than they ever did in any theater (including the Battle of Britain). Aside from that, they're so easy to fly that they do allow a considerably inferior flier to get kills on a superior pilot. This is particularly true of the later Spitfires, which not only maneuver better than nearly all of their opponents but are also faster.
Any idea how many Spitfires were produced Benny?
20,334. 2,408 Seafires built. Last I checked only the 109 had more examples produced.
Any idea how many squadrons flew them? If not I can give you the break down, which mark they flew, when etc. Starting with 1 squadron and ending in the 700s.
What I'm seeing is a generalized "History Channel" statement based on the fact that there were more Hurris then Spits in the B of B.
They flew in the ETO, MTO, CBI, PTO, Russia etc. The Russians alone got over 1000 Spitfire LFIXs. They also got 100s of Spit Vs.
Talked to a present day real Spit flyer and he was he first to admit it's very easy to fly. Heckuva design for a wartime fighter wouldn't you say? What an advantage to have that kind of performance, coupled with that ease of flying. I guess AH got the design right then.
Go ahead and gripe about em in the game. I get tired of seeing so many 16s too.
I trust that you aren't criticizing the real wartime Spit or it's pilots. I'd have a serious problem with that
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Originally posted by Krusty
Kev I'm at several thousand feet already, high speed. When I zoom up I'm going well past 6-8k in alt. Even at BEST climb, low on the deck, the spixteen can only do ~5000 fpm, it should take it well over 60-120 seconds to get up to me, by which time I've looped around and am positioning for kill. Instead it's still vertically nose high and gaining in under 40 seconds.
Krusty, I think you are a victim of physics. That Spitfire likely had some speed to begin with. In which case, the first part of the climb was pure zoom, far greater than its constant rate of climb. Beginning from sea level at 300 mph, the Spit16 can reach 10,000 feet in 100 seconds, and it covers the first 7,000 feet in about a minute. If the Spitfire had 400 mph on the clock, it'll get to you in well under a minute... Understand the physics and you'll find yourself not being surprised by things that are to be expected.
There's nothing wrong with the Spitfire Mk.XVI's flight model, especially with regard to speed, climb and acceleration.
My regards,
Widewing
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Normally I might think so, only most of the time this happens I witness them roll to take off and they do this the moment their gear is up
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Yet we see no film, BULLPLOP !!!!!
Bronk
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the only spit that i consider a challenge is those with the 2x 50cal, always get my engine and pilot, not a good idea when ur at 50ft. other than that 109 kill spit like real easy.:aok
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Originally posted by titanic3
the only spit that i consider a challenge is those with the 2x 50cal, always get my engine and pilot, not a good idea when ur at 50ft. other than that 109 kill spit like real easy.:aok
Here have a quarter. Go to the mall and buy a clue.
Its the pilot not the plane.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Film ?
Or just more bullflop.
Bronk
More bullflop
shamus
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Any idea how many Spitfires were produced Benny?
20,334. 2,408 Seafires built. Last I checked only the 109 had more examples produced.
What I'm seeing is a generalized "History Channel" statement based on the fact that there were more Hurris then Spits in the B of B.
Go ahead and gripe about em in the game. I get tired of seeing so many 16s too.
Yes, I am aware of the roughly twenty thousand figure. However, let's add up the fighters. With something like 14,000 Hurricanes, 33,000 Me-109s, 20,000 FW-190s, and 100,000 American fighters, the ratio of Spitfires to other fighters is something like 1 to 9. That's 10%. That is, of course, not counting all of the aircraft. If all aircraft were counted, it would be even lower.
In the game, however, Spitfires often make up a full half of the aircraft in any particular server that enables all models. My own server, which allows only the Mark I, has a much more reasonable ratio, closely resembling the proper 10%.
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Well, IF we want to play numbers with planes .
There only 10,0038 P-38 produced.
Thats less than 1/2 the numbers of spits produced.
So by your logic we should see them 2x as often as the P-38.
Note: P-38 #s taken from Dean's AHT.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Yes, I am aware of the roughly twenty thousand figure. However, let's add up the fighters. With something like 14,000 Hurricanes, 33,000 Me-109s, 20,000 FW-190s, and 100,000 American fighters, the ratio of Spitfires to other fighters is something like 1 to 9. That's 10%. That is, of course, not counting all of the aircraft. If all aircraft were counted, it would be even lower.
In the game, however, Spitfires often make up a full half of the aircraft in any particular server that enables all models. My own server, which allows only the Mark I, has a much more reasonable ratio, closely resembling the proper 10%.
What time of the war we referring to and where? What would the percentage be of Allied fighters over France in 41-42 for example? That would be Spits vs 109s and 190s. No Jugs. Tiffies were just barely moving with teething troubles in late 42. Hurri's not being used as frontline fighters, No Merlin Mustangs, No P38s. Guess that leaves about 80-90 percent Spits taking the fight to France.
It's all relative. Does that mean we need to base our percentages on total use during the war? Merlin Mustangs are gonna take a pretty good hit. There goes the 38L since it barely scratched the surface in the ETO before the war was over.....You can play the math any number of ways.
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I'm sorry ,did someone mention 109K-4's?:noid
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How many F4U-1Cs were built in WW2? a paltry 200. Thats a fraction of a percent of US fighters.
N1K2-Js? several hundred saw action, tops.
Doras? about 700 produced. Total.
You can add Doras, N1Ks and C-Hogs and you can get @1100 planes. Wow.
P-51Ds and LA-7s? none in action prior to May 1944, a year prior to wars end in the ETO.
P-38s? P-47s? you want to compare them to the total # of other fighters in the war? 1 in 9? not even close.
Yet, how many do we see in the MA?
LMAO
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Originally posted by Squire
You can add Doras, N1Ks and C-Hogs and you can get @1100 planes. Wow.
Not forgetting the less than 60 Ta-152's, or as has been discovered recently -
The extremely rare (20 or so) AH2 version of the 110 we have with the uprated motor (and how many of them do you see, they're all over the place in AH2).
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Aside from that, they're so easy to fly that they do allow a considerably inferior flier to get kills on a superior pilot.
How can he be superior and end killed ?
Not very logical.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
...What would the percentage be of Allied fighters over France in 41-42 for example?...
wats that have 2 do w/ anythings?
it wasn't France War II:mad::mad::furious:furious:furious:furiouswhere were all the spitfires in china:mad::mad::furious?
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I know guppy. Ive seen the clipped mk V. Its still not a true spitfire though ;) Im not saying its a bad plane, and im not disrespecting it, its just not a spitfire because it doesnt have the physical quality that the Spitfire is most famous for.
And Bronk, Squire, I have enough crap loading down my comp, I cannot record every one of my flights, and by the time I hit alt R the anomoly has already happened, and I have made my way away from this strange plane. Just keep your eyes open and you will see it. Heres a hint: Stop flying the Spixteen, and just watch others fly them. The only way I have ever beat a Spixteen is in a turn and burn. That is the only thing this plane seems to be bad at, but its bad enough that a Bf-109G6 can turn inside it, and even loop inside it in proper conditions. But here, JUST for you, I will record every single one of my flights and e-mail them to you so YOU can have a nice bogged down computer too, and YOU can sort through all 30 minutes, and all 100+ films, and find those 3 seconds where a Spixteen is defying physics. Would you like me to do that for you? Id be glad to.
This is still my favorite screenshot. Me in the Bf-109G6, some dweeb in the Spitfire. No I didnt scrape the ground and yes, I survived the whorde that chased me away from their base. How do you like THAT clipped wing?
(http://[url][/url])
(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/Luftwaffe%20Biatch.JPG)
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" No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating"
Well, I have seen a RL Spit IX take off and go almost straight into a loop, - I can't even copy that one properly in AH.
As for the 360 mph IN the climb, I'd like to see that on video.
And for this Bronk:
"There only 10,0038 P-38 produced.
Thats less than 1/2 the numbers of spits produced.
So by your logic we should see them 2x as often as the P-38."
You forgot the time in service. P38: 1942/43 to 1945, Spitty 1939 to 1945.
But, in the PTO the P38 was of course more common.....
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Originally posted by Angus
Well, I have seen a RL Spit IX take off and go almost straight into a loop, - I can't even copy that one properly in AH.
As for the 360 mph IN the climb, I'd like to see that on video.
Full span, right? I can imagine it, but suggested speed for a loop is 270. He must have leveled for a second or two, as Spitfire lifts off between 80 and 120mph. Again, sorry but I cannot afford the computer problems all of those recordings would cause, but from now on I will make a point of recording Spixteen encounters.
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A decent pilot in a Spit I would go from cruise into two consequtive loops. 3 have been registered. However, that is not takeoff speed.
The one I saw was a full span twin cockpit Mk IX (modded), and he was entering the loop while still over the runway.
Actually, I was watching lots of spits later on with a WW2 Ace at my side. I heard him muttering, - this ain't nothing!
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Originally posted by Serenity
I know guppy. Ive seen the clipped mk V. Its still not a true spitfire though ;) Im not saying its a bad plane, and im not disrespecting it, its just not a spitfire because it doesnt have the physical quality that the Spitfire is most famous for.
What do you mean a clipped wing Spitfire is not a true Spitfire?
What do you mean by 'it doesnt have the physical quality that the Spitfire is most famous for'?
Are you saying an extended wing Spitfire is not a true Spitfire also?
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Originally posted by Bronk
Well, IF we want to play numbers with planes .
There only 10,0038 P-38 produced.
Thats less than 1/2 the numbers of spits produced.
So by your logic we should see them 2x as often as the P-38.
Right you are! The difference is that you're not going to see a server full of P-38s like you do Spitfires. Even when the planeset is pretty much tailored to American ships, the P-38 comprises a very low percentage of the ships flown (as it should).
Straffo, an airplane can make up for pilot skill. The best pilot in the world, flying a P-47, won't ever touch your average F-15 pilot. That's a really extreme example, of course, but it's true. Unless the Spitfire pilot really don't know his stuff, it doesn't matter how good the P-38 pilot is. He's going to lose. If you don't believe me, we can arrange a duel in my server. It's pretty much lag-free and people respect the duel in there. I'll fly Spitfire Mark XIV (which I've never flown before) and you can fly the P-38. You will lose.
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A WW2 prop plane and a modern F15 are NOT in the same ballpark.
A Spitfire and a Jug ARE in the same Ballpark.
No Oranges vs apples please.
As for a Spit on P38, Try fighting Ack-Ack :D
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Contrary to what you may believe Benny, the Spitfire was a better pure air superority fighter than the P-38 was. It was more agile, with better accleration and much, much easier to fly and fight in.
The P-38 was, on the other hand, a much better strike aricraft and long range Fighter.
Thus, the fact that an average pilot in the Spitfire Mk VIII, Mk XIV or Mk XVI will beat an average pilot in a P-38J or P-38L should be no surprise at all.
Yet to you it is, oddly.
And no, an average Spitfire pilot in AH will be destroyed by a great P-38 pilot.
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Originally posted by Serenity
And Bronk, Squire, I have enough crap loading down my comp, I cannot record every one of my flights, and by the time I hit alt R the anomoly has already happened, and I have made my way away from this strange plane. Just keep your eyes open and you will see it. Heres a hint: Stop flying the Spixteen, and just watch others fly them. The only way I have ever beat a Spixteen is in a turn and burn. That is the only thing this plane seems to be bad at, but its bad enough that a Bf-109G6 can turn inside it, and even loop inside it in proper conditions. But here, JUST for you, I will record every single one of my flights and e-mail them to you so YOU can have a nice bogged down computer too, and YOU can sort through all 30 minutes, and all 100+ films, and find those 3 seconds where a Spixteen is defying physics. Would you like me to do that for you? Id be glad to.
(http://)
1st you better do a little research before you make accusations. I have a grand total of 8 kills and 2 deaths in the XVI. I use it fore base defense.
2nd if it's so stressful to hit alt+r I can see how much a problem the XVI is for you.
3rd here is my fav pic
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1155240639_tbm.jpg)
This should remind you once again its the pilot not the plane.
4th the Mk VIII performance is almost identical. Yet no whines about it.
It's all in your head.
Now for the obligatory teen comment. You're a teen you think you know more than you actually do. No worries you will grow out of it.
Bronk
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The VIII is a very good XVI killer.
(Just take less % of fuel, since the tanks are much bigger)
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the spitfire (the spitXVI especially) is fairly mediocre in AH. By no means is it a bad plane....it's simply not an uber one. The spitXVI has a top speed of 378....while it turns well its handling is a bit touchy on the edge. The VIII is far more deadly then the XVI (IMO) with the spit IX my favorite. If we look at the plane mix the hurricane is a much more deadly pure T&B plane then any spitfire. The FM-2 flies circles around any spitty and the Ki-84 will dominate the spitfire if the spitty is dumb enough to slow the fight down enough.
What I find amazing is just how dominant the 109E is over the spit I. We flew a bunch of 4 x 4's in the DA awhile back. not only did the 109E sweep but it did so 7-1 with the only kill registered on a 109 a pilot goof.
No question that the spits combination of speed view turn and acceleration make it a fine plane, both IRL and the game. But in reality a spit isnt anything other then a target much of the time. most of the guys who are really good in thr spitty's are really good in everything else also:)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Right you are! The difference is that you're not going to see a server full of P-38s like you do Spitfires. Even when the planeset is pretty much tailored to American ships, the P-38 comprises a very low percentage of the ships flown (as it should).
Straffo, an airplane can make up for pilot skill. The best pilot in the world, flying a P-47, won't ever touch your average F-15 pilot. That's a really extreme example, of course, but it's true. Unless the Spitfire pilot really don't know his stuff, it doesn't matter how good the P-38 pilot is. He's going to lose. If you don't believe me, we can arrange a duel in my server. It's pretty much lag-free and people respect the duel in there. I'll fly Spitfire Mark XIV (which I've never flown before) and you can fly the P-38. You will lose.
Actually it is impossible for a spit driver to beat a 38, the 38 can only lose. Now the pilot is by far the majority of the equation. But the only spitty that can beat a 38 (L) is the XIV. The spitty is by far the easier plane to fly but the 38 just owns it one on one. If you restrict things to a no extention dueling environment the edge goes to the spitty given avergae pilots on both sides....but in a dueling flat merge anything goes....only time the spitty sees the 38 thru the gun site is on that 1st merge...
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Originally posted by humble
the spitfire (the spitXVI especially) is fairly mediocre in AH.
Wooot bring 25 lb boost to the Mk XVI cus it's mediocre.
:D
Bronk
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It's more about the guns and hitting distances in this game, rather than a problem with the plane itself IMO.
What if people can't hit worth crap outside 200 yards like its supposed to? Then even a small advantage in speed would be enough to justify flying a faster plane over a Spitfire. However, in AH the firing distances of average grade pilots are commonly as far out as 400 yards, with some great marksmen shooting out far as 600~800 yards to bring enemy planes down. Me, I've personaaly been shot down countless times by 50cals from more than 600 yards out, upto about 800 yards max.
Ofcourse, this is an improvement when you think about AH1. In AH1 the hitting distances were even further out, 500~600 yard shots were the norm where a casual spraying of cannons at distances would still have a high probability of bringing enemy planes down.
Compared to AH1, the pilots who fly other planes nowadays have it easy when fighting planes like the N1K or the Spit. In the old days, the slow speed of the Spit didn't matter much. Just a little bit of alt advantage, just enough to bring you upto 500~600 yards distance and bam, easy kills. It wasn't uncommon seeing people land some 10~20 kills in a single sortie with planes armed with either Hispanos or 50cals (or both!) back then.
But anyways, the hitting distances in the game are still more than twice of that in real life. This means people who are fighting planes like the Spitfire has to always reserve enough E to stay at least 400~500 yards away from it at all times - especially if you want to drag it into a vertical and grab a decisve advantage over it.
But what if 200 yards was enough? What if being over 200 yards was enough to stop worrying about "sprays" or "sniper shots"? Then I'd bet the Spitfire wouldn't be hated this much. Getting inside of 400 yards isn't so hard with any Spitfire in the game. However, getting really close, inside 200 yards, isn't so easy in Spitfires against much faster planes.
If that be the case then I think the Spitfire wouldn't be so much as popular as it is now. What's the use of a superior maneuvering plane, if it still isn't fast enough to really bring yourself into optimum firing range?
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I'm not sure Kweassa.
When you factor in Lag that 600 shot might have been 400-500 depending on lag. I know that you're on the other side of the pacific so I assume lag times for you should be significant.
I can only speak for myself but most of my kills are 200 out. So I assume on the other guys front end I might appear to be between 200-400 possibly in high lag circumstances 600.
I wont get into different gun performances in game because that's another minefield.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
You take any pilot that's decent (not even "good") from any other plane and put him in a spitfire, and he becomes a god, killing left and right. You take any decent pilot from a spitfire and put it in any other plane and he will become the lowest of the greenhorn newbies.
Not true.
I've flown mostly Spit XVI's since they were introduced. My K/D is usually slightly over 1 (1.3 or so) in a Spit XVI. Over the past few camps I've been flying other planes. Now this is just off the top of my head but my K/D in other planes is much higher (almost 2 in FM2, 3 in Spit V, 4-5 in Hurri IIC, 4 in TA152H, 2 in P-51D, 2 in P-51B, 4 in FW190-A8, etc., etc., etc.). Don't believe me? Go look at my expanded stats.
The Spit XVI isn't the easy button you all think it is.
The P-51D, FW190-D9 and others are faster. The Hurri's, Spit V, FM2, N1K and others turn better. The 190's roll better. Some of the ME109's climb better and the Spit XVI almost holds onto E too well. It's easier to pull into a blackout if your not careful than any other plane I've flown. The XVI, like other Spits is also fragile. It can't take many hits in a fight. The fuel load is relatively small and, while it's got a deadly gun package, the ammo clip is smaller. People also become over-confident in a Spit XVI, willing to engage in fights that maybe they shouldn't be in. Finally, it's always got a target on it's tail. People LOVE to shoot down Spit XVI's.
What the XVI is is a well balanced machine. It's not the best at anything but very very good at everything. It can B'n'Z as well as it can T'n'B but you still have to be careful in your match-ups and be well aware of your opponents strengths. It (as I mentioned above) holds E like no other plane so you have to know how to control it but if (when) you bring your guns to bear, look out opponent.
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My 2 cents worth here, I actually think the spit 9 is way better than the 16, escpecially at 15k+, might be wrong (and I probably am) but it just feels a better aircraft than the 16.
The only time I ever really have to worry at 15k+ spitwise is when a 14 or a 9 show up at that alt
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The Spit IX starts shining above 20K.
And low alt, the XVI is A KILLER, - as in real life. Decently fast, good accelerating, turns well, packs a punch and rolls well, climbs well too! Mediocre? On a 1v1, equal merge, low level, not many can beat it.
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like you said "decently fast, good acc, good turn".... like any plane its the pilot who matters most. I probalby can beat 80% of the spit XVI drivers in a 1 on 1 at any alt in a hog. Those I cant I'm not gonna beat in anything else....i'll beat em in an F6F or C-205 also....
Well flown Ki-84 will eat up a 16 so will a 38....yak totally owns it. The real key here are you fighting a duel or just lilling. The spitty will win a "duel" but if you take away the "dueling rules" the spitty wont see anything after the "merge".
Now obviously pilot skill is the big variable, a real good spit driver will get a few overshoots. The hispano's certainly can reach out and touch you...but thats only way the spitty wins...
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Originally posted by Serenity
Im basing this on the fact that:
1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude
2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds
3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating.
I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things.
I think somebody has taken the "High" out of Aces High a little too seriously . . .
Unless you have films I call Bull$hi+ on all three.:confused:
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Unless the Spitfire pilot really don't know his stuff, it doesn't matter how good the P-38 pilot is. He's going to lose. If you don't believe me, we can arrange a duel in my server. It's pretty much lag-free and people respect the duel in there. I'll fly Spitfire Mark XIV (which I've never flown before) and you can fly the P-38. You will lose.
Not true. An average Spitfire driver only has a slightly better chance of surviving than a new, untested Spitfire driver against an experienced good stick in a P-38. Why is that you may wonder? The experienced P-38 driver is going to know not only the strengths and weaknesses of his plane but of the Spitfire as well. For example, if I was to stumble across an average pilot in a Spitfire, I'm going to keep the fight fast, above 300mph IAS so my better high speed maneuverability comes into play and use the vertical as much as possible. Or, if the fight is going to be an Angles fight off the merge, then I will try and get the angles fight as slow as possible, below the 150mph IAS range so my better slow/stall speed handling over the Spitfire comes into play.
This is something that is lost on the average to new pilot. All they know is that the Spitfire can turn but they don't know it's weaknesses and that is something the experienced pilot will use against the average pilot. He's not going to know that the optimal speed range to turn fight in a Spitfire is at medium speeds. He's not going to know the P-38 peforms better in the vertical than his Spitfire, etc...
That is why 99% of the time the experienced P-38 driver will beat the average Spitfire driver.
ack-ack
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BOTTOM LINE SPITFIRE CAN OWN JUST ABOUT ALL TYPES OF PLANES. ESPECIALLY 109 WHICH IS MY FAV TO SHOOT DOWN. DOES ANY 1 HAVE A GROUP PICTURE OF THE 71ST EAGLE SQUADRON?
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Originally posted by Movie
BOTTOM LINE SPITFIRE CAN OWN JUST ABOUT ALL TYPES OF PLANES. ESPECIALLY 109 WHICH IS MY FAV TO SHOOT DOWN. DOES ANY 1 HAVE A GROUP PICTURE OF THE 71ST EAGLE SQUADRON?
You can make that statement with just about any fighter in this game.
ack-ack
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That is why 99% of the time the experienced P-38 driver will beat the average Spitfire driver.
The above statement is not entirely correct. According to the large consensus of people who've actually encountered such 'experienced P-38 drivers' in the MA quite frequently, this should be the full version of the above statement;
"That is why 99% of the time the experienced P-38 driver will beat the average Spitfire driver by either starting off with a 10k alt advantage, or using friendly pilots as cherrypick bait"
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Originally posted by humble
like you said "decently fast, good acc, good turn".... like any plane its the pilot who matters most. I probalby can beat 80% of the spit XVI drivers in a 1 on 1 at any alt in a hog. Those I cant I'm not gonna beat in anything else....i'll beat em in an F6F or C-205 also....
Well flown Ki-84 will eat up a 16 so will a 38....yak totally owns it. The real key here are you fighting a duel or just lilling. The spitty will win a "duel" but if you take away the "dueling rules" the spitty wont see anything after the "merge".
Now obviously pilot skill is the big variable, a real good spit driver will get a few overshoots. The hispano's certainly can reach out and touch you...but thats only way the spitty wins...
From beginning to end, boulderdash and rubbish!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The above statement should be rephrased:
"That is why 99% of the time the experienced P-38 driver will beat the average Spitfire driver by starting off with a 10k alt advantage"
This, is correct.
Nope, no alt advantage needed. A good, experienced P-38 driver will the majority of the time against an average pilot, no matter what the average pilot is flying. The experienced pilot is going to know what to in various situations and maneuver accordingly to get the angle, the average pilot will most likely not and will die as a result.
The same can be said of a good, experienced Spitfire pilot against an average P-38 pilot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Movie
DOES ANY 1 HAVE A GROUP PICTURE OF THE 71ST EAGLE SQUADRON?
YES!!!!! Why are you yelling?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1170196518_71squadron.jpg)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Right you are! The difference is that you're not going to see a server full of P-38s like you do Spitfires. Even when the planeset is pretty much tailored to American ships, the P-38 comprises a very low percentage of the ships flown (as it should).
Straffo, an airplane can make up for pilot skill. The best pilot in the world, flying a P-47, won't ever touch your average F-15 pilot. That's a really extreme example, of course, but it's true. Unless the Spitfire pilot really don't know his stuff, it doesn't matter how good the P-38 pilot is. He's going to lose. If you don't believe me, we can arrange a duel in my server. It's pretty much lag-free and people respect the duel in there. I'll fly Spitfire Mark XIV (which I've never flown before) and you can fly the P-38. You will lose.
With a broke (again :() rotator cuff I won't be able to fly in your server neither in the MA :cry
Plus I'm far from a superior pilot , now if Ack-Ack or Murdr want to drop in your arena I think you will learn something about superior pilot in inferior plane.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The above statement is not entirely correct. According to the large consensus of people who've actually encountered such 'experienced P-38 drivers' in the MA quite frequently, this should be the full version of the above statement;
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That is why 99% of the time the experienced P-38 driver will beat the average Spitfire driver by either starting off with a 10k alt advantage, or using friendly pilots as cherrypick bait"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now you have to understand that I'm a longtime Spit historian, with my focus being the guys who flew the XII. It's ingrained in me their operating procedure, which was to fly below the 109s and 190s hoping they came down.
I do this with my 38G all the time and hope the Spit drivers come down. I wait for em to come down from behind, time the break, roll back their direction and hope that they'll turn back in.
All the 38 drivers i fly with are of the same mentality, that alt is just time consuming. We'd rather fight from a disadvantage then waste time getting alt to the fight.
Does it mean I've never bounced anyone? Nah. But I like it when the other guy is coming down to try and pick me. Beating him, is much more satisfying.
And unless flown by an experienced Spit driver, I feel like I can handle any Spit in my 38G. But I can also tell within the first turn or two whether or not I'm on trouble. 90% of the time its not an experience Spit driver.
That being said, if I get in a Spit I feel the same way. I prefer the VIII though.
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Originally posted by Angus
From beginning to end, boulderdash and rubbish!
More then happy to put it to the test.......
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Now you have to understand that I'm a longtime Spit historian, with my focus being the guys who flew the XII. It's ingrained in me their operating procedure, which was to fly below the 109s and 190s hoping they came down.
I do this with my 38G all the time and hope the Spit drivers come down. I wait for em to come down from behind, time the break, roll back their direction and hope that they'll turn back in.
All the 38 drivers i fly with are of the same mentality, that alt is just time consuming. We'd rather fight from a disadvantage then waste time getting alt to the fight.
Does it mean I've never bounced anyone? Nah. But I like it when the other guy is coming down to try and pick me. Beating him, is much more satisfying.
And unless flown by an experienced Spit driver, I feel like I can handle any Spit in my 38G. But I can also tell within the first turn or two whether or not I'm on trouble. 90% of the time its not an experience Spit driver.
That being said, if I get in a Spit I feel the same way. I prefer the VIII though.
I think the underlying reality is that speed is the spitties biggest problem. 90% of all spit drivers keep to much E...your not gonna out run the other guys guns. all that speed, climb and acceleration is useless to most spit drivers. What they cant do is slow the darn thing down enough to for anything else to matter.
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Originally posted by straffo
now if Ack-Ack or Murdr want to drop in your arena I think you will learn something about superior pilot in inferior plane.
They both have, and both beat me repeatedly in fair fights. However, it was often close enough that I feel confident that I could beat at least one of them if I were flying a Spitfire Mark XIV.
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Originally posted by humble
like you said "decently fast, good acc, good turn".... like any plane its the pilot who matters most. I probalby can beat 80% of the spit XVI drivers in a 1 on 1 at any alt in a hog. Those I cant I'm not gonna beat in anything else....i'll beat em in an F6F or C-205 also....
Well flown Ki-84 will eat up a 16 so will a 38....yak totally owns it. The real key here are you fighting a duel or just lilling. The spitty will win a "duel" but if you take away the "dueling rules" the spitty wont see anything after the "merge".
Now obviously pilot skill is the big variable, a real good spit driver will get a few overshoots. The hispano's certainly can reach out and touch you...but thats only way the spitty wins...
I'm afraid I have to disagree with several things. A Spit16 EASILY out-classes a Yak-9U in everything but max speed. It turns smaller circles, much smaller. In terms of acceleration, the Yak is waaay behind. Ditto for sustained climb. Roll rate is a gimmie for the Spit. The Spit decelerates faster than the Yak as well (it's been tested).
"but if you take away the "dueling rules" the spitty wont see anything after the "merge." That's because the smart Yak driver is already headed to a different sector.... ;) Maybe even a different map if the Spitfire was a Mk.VIII.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid I have to disagree with several things. A Spit16 EASILY out-classes a Yak-9U in everything but max speed. It turns smaller circles, much smaller. In terms of acceleration, the Yak is waaay behind. Ditto for sustained climb. Roll rate is a gimmie for the Spit. The Spit decelerates faster than the Yak as well (it's been tested).
"but if you take away the "dueling rules" the spitty wont see anything after the "merge." That's because the smart Yak driver is already headed to a different sector.... ;) Maybe even a different map if the Spitfire was a Mk.VIII.
My regards,
Widewing
Heh.
Humble, you're just a very good pilot, and probably most of the Spit pilots you meet aren't as good as you.
This thread started out with the honest question of why the Spit is viewed by many (obviously not by the Spit Mafia!) as a dweeb plane. I asked that question myself back in 1996 - wish I could remember who the guy was who gave me the answer. To most of us, the Spit gives the modestly competent pilot a huge advantage over any other modestly competent pilot - and that's why it got the reputation.
Or at least, so it seems to me.
- oldman
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MarkVIII a much tougher nut then the XVI IMO. WW I dont fly the yak much so I might be mistaken. Last time I flew it was when a guy asked how you fight a spit16 in one {except for a hop earlier today}. If I recall my answer was "carefully" but with the understanding the yak controls the fight. I think the operative comment in the original statement was the "80%". I run into very few decent...let alone really good spitXVI drivers. Obviously there are some...as a general rule I engage any spit (especially the 16) at any alt under any initial E state in any plane. While I get my leg chewed off from time to time the vast majority of the time the spitty isnt flown to the optimum. I'm much more wary of Ki-84's, C-205s, F6F's and assorted 109's....
Looking at the gonzoville charts I cant disagree with you...but the 16 has the same advantage vs the F6F.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Heh.
Humble, you're just a very good pilot, and probably most of the Spit pilots you meet aren't as good as you.
This thread started out with the honest question of why the Spit is viewed by many (obviously not by the Spit Mafia!) as a dweeb plane. I asked that question myself back in 1996 - wish I could remember who the guy was who gave me the answer. To most of us, the Spit gives the modestly competent pilot a huge advantage over any other modestly competent pilot - and that's why it got the reputation.
Or at least, so it seems to me.
- oldman
I dont see myself as anything but "above average". There are easily 100 guys I cant touch. i'm pretty good across the board in that I can fly a 205/109/Ki-61 etc against any plane is set and make the other guy use his plane to its potential to beat me. But I've had plenty of good fightsd and been toasted as well by many guys (you included:)). I have a tough time ever saying "so and so" beat me because he was in a spit. 90% of the time he beat me because he did something right....or I did something wrong...or both.
Now if we fly a 5 minute fight and somebody sucks that least bit of E out of me and stomps me into the weeds then I just go wow....what a great E fight. but I know that in the end I simply ran out of plane. So the question then becomes what could i have changed earlier to avoid that.
The german flyer in 1943 fighting a spitXIV in his g6 didnt get to call the other guy a dweeb....he figured it out or he rode home in a pine box. I guess I just feel that if the other guy is relying on his plane to do his killing he's giving up his greatest potential advantage....himself.
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I don't get where you P-38 guys have been flying. I've rarely found a P-38 that stood any knid of chance against me in a Spit XVI and guess where I almost always beat them... in the vertical! The P-38 has no where near the climb rate of a Spit XVI and if you take them into a spiral climb they are toast.
The only explanation that I can come up with for that statement is that the P-38 can pull a tighter turn with flaps at the top of a wing-over but thats it.
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Originally posted by Movie
BOTTOM LINE SPITFIRE CAN OWN JUST ABOUT ALL TYPES OF PLANES. ESPECIALLY 109 WHICH IS MY FAV TO SHOOT DOWN. DOES ANY 1 HAVE A GROUP PICTURE OF THE 71ST EAGLE SQUADRON?
I fly the Ki-61 in the LWA's. I have a 3 K/D in it. I don't vulch, so I guess the Spit's, and La's I'm bagging are "average pilots"? Not by the kill messages, they aren't. But "I suck" as most will put it. :aok
So until then, "The Next Time When Ego's Flare!"
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
They both have, and both beat me repeatedly in fair fights. However, it was often close enough that I feel confident that I could beat at least one of them if I were flying a Spitfire Mark XIV.
How do you know? You have admitted that you've never flown the Spitfire Mk XIV (14, in case of confusion). It is a much, much different animal than any other Spitfire, yet you seem to assume that it is just a Spitfire, and that is the same assumption that crappy Spitfire pilots make about it.
There is not a plane in AH that I have not flown. That you are making pompous claims while not having at least tested the various aircraft takes a lot of the credibility out of your argument.
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You make a good point. However, the fact that it is faster, climbs better, and accelerates quicker than the P-38 are enough for me. I can always win a fair fight if my ship has those three attributes over my opponent. Never mind turning. How about you join my server sometime and we'll put it to the test?
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I'm not saying the Spit XIV isn't very potent, it is. It is just totally different from the Spit VIII or XVI. I wouldn't use it as a representative Spitfire as it is at one of the extreme ends of wartime Spitfire performance.
I agree it has the advantage on the P-38, but only if flown to its strengths. If it tries to go vertical the P-38 should demolish it as the high torque makes it hard to be effective in that fight. It is also the worst turning Spitfire by a wide margin, giving the P-38 an even better shot at killing it via angles. Like all full span Spits, its roll rate is nothing to get excited about, especially at speeds over 350mph.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I fly the Ki-61 in the LWA's. I have a 3 K/D in it. I don't vulch, so I guess the Spit's, and La's I'm bagging are "average pilots"? Not by the kill messages, they aren't. But "I suck" as most will put it. :aok
So until then, "The Next Time When Ego's Flare!"
KI-61 is a formidable foe for even the best Spit XVI pilots. KI-61 will out-turn it and is faster. If I remember right it's nearly as good, if not better in a climb too. I try to use fast extending passes against them because they'll eat you alive in a turn fight but so will a lot of planes.
Spit V's another story.
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Originally posted by Karnak
If it tries to go vertical the P-38 should demolish it as the high torque makes it hard to be effective in that fight.
Huh? Have you ever flown these planes? Spit XVI will outclimb a P-38 easily.
Or are you talking about diving? If so have you ever heard of throttle control?
Just wondering.
BTW, to whomever above said they stay low in their 38 to bring the Spit down to them and force the overshoot I saw a 38 about 5K below me one night. He went to the deck and turned his tail to me. I chopped throttle and floated in on his 6. 3 rounds and he was done. Nice tactic.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
KI-61 is a formidable foe for even the best Spit XVI pilots. KI-61 will out-turn it and is faster. If I remember right it's nearly as good, if not better in a climb too. I try to use fast extending passes against them because they'll eat you alive in a turn fight but so will a lot of planes.
Spit V's another story.
Ki61 is not faster than the VIII, XVI, or XIV. It might be faster than the spitIX at certain altitudes(?), but it is a slow plane, on the order of a hurri2c or the spitv. I don't think it turns much tigther than a spit, but even if it does it has stability issues, and its performance is generally sub-par.
I still like flying it, though!
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Huh? Have you ever flown these planes? Spit XVI will outclimb a P-38 easily.
Or are you talking about diving? If so have you ever heard of throttle control?
Just wondering.
BTW, to whomever above said they stay low in their 38 to bring the Spit down to them and force the overshoot I saw a 38 about 5K below me one night. He went to the deck and turned his tail to me. I chopped throttle and floated in on his 6. 3 rounds and he was done. Nice tactic.
Vertical does not mean climb
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Is in no way a dweeb plane.
The flying characterisitcs make it easier for newer pilots yes thats why it is popular.
Skilled pilots in spitfires can pretty much beat anything if it doesnt runaway.
The people that up a spitfire and HO everything they see are just giving it a bad rep.
I'd rather fight a good spit pilot than a good LA7/P51D/190D pilot anyday.
Because of the speed issue the fight is fun and not spent chasing someone who will extend, run and then come back into the fight when you break or engage someone else.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Huh? Have you ever flown these planes? Spit XVI will outclimb a P-38 easily.
Or are you talking about diving? If so have you ever heard of throttle control?
Just wondering.
BTW, to whomever above said they stay low in their 38 to bring the Spit down to them and force the overshoot I saw a 38 about 5K below me one night. He went to the deck and turned his tail to me. I chopped throttle and floated in on his 6. 3 rounds and he was done. Nice tactic.
That was me who said that about getting the Spits to drop on me. I don't recall saying it worked every time :)
I do recall saying that I liked the challenge of trying to defeat those guys with the advantage. Clearly you were smarter then the average Spit XVI driver. Most blow on by way too fast. So yeah under the circumstance it is a nice tactic.
So lighten up francis. Where's your Minnesota nice? :)
BTW fo those talking about clipped Spits. The latest warbird depot calender for February. No it's NOT and XVI but it's a clipped wing, tall tail Spitfire LFIXe. Same bird as the XVI but with the Rolls Merlin instead of the Packard version.
(http://www.warbirddepot.com/images/calendar/fighter1_1024f.jpg)
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A Spit pilot doesn't always face just one opponent, and with many around, there are good odds that the Spit can not run away.
Also bear that in mind....
Actually one evasive maneuver used by Spit drivers was a conkscrew climb.
No one would follow, so if the bandits were many and co-alt this was the only way out.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Huh? Have you ever flown these planes? Spit XVI will outclimb a P-38 easily.
Or are you talking about diving? If so have you ever heard of throttle control?
Just wondering.
BTW, to whomever above said they stay low in their 38 to bring the Spit down to them and force the overshoot I saw a 38 about 5K below me one night. He went to the deck and turned his tail to me. I chopped throttle and floated in on his 6. 3 rounds and he was done. Nice tactic.
Just because a plane has a better climb rate doesn't mean it has better vertical performance.
As for those P-38 pilots you've run across, they sound like they didn't know what they were doing in the Lightning. And I'm sure you're stretching the truth just a wee bit.
You want to kill a Spifire in the P-38?
Keep the fight fast, above 300mph IAS or faster.
Use vertical maneuvers to gain an angle
If you can't fight at high speed, fight at stall speeds. Works great on the deck, Spitfire can't dive out for speed and runs a greater risk of spinning in because it couldn't get enough speed to recover from a stall. Using the Cloverleaf maneuver is great for this. Great tactic to use against the Spitfire XVI.
And the most important tip is...
Keep the fight out of the medium speed range. Spitfire will chew up a P-38 in this range. Fight high or low...
Basically, using the strengths of the P-38 while exploiting the weaknesses of the Spitfire. Of course, if the Spitfire driver is as good as the P-38 driver then things can get really exciting and usually boils down to who made the first mistake or who was able to squeeze more out of their plane.
ack-ack
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sorry lads to be a bit forward but your all getting this out of context. say what you like it takes a skill to fly these planes real or in game and yes there is some easyer than others but the planes with the more agility and ease of flying, arent they the truely great planes. a good plane should be a well tuned machine that the pilot can trust and be confortable with. im not going to pick a plane that i find harder to fly why would i do that i love all models of spits im british so ofcourse i will but the fact that the spit 16 can do things it has no right to be doing is an acoplishment. and another thing all spits take a bit of flying but for me they suit my style of flying nothing to do with "oh th spit 16 can do this and that so im going to fly it" i fly it becouse in my eyes its a fu*king killing machine and it doesnt deserve to be called a dweeb plane so please DONT BE CALLING BRITISH PLANES NAMES except the disasters lol
:aok
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sorry lads to be a bit forward but your all getting this out of context. say what you like it takes a skill to fly these planes real or in game and yes there is some easyer than others but the planes with the more agility and ease of flying, arent they the truely great planes. a good plane should be a well tuned machine that the pilot can trust and be confortable with. im not going to pick a plane that i find harder to fly why would i do that i love all models of spits im british so ofcourse i will but the fact that the spit 16 can do things it has no right to be doing is an acoplishment. and another thing all spits take a bit of flying but for me they suit my style of flying nothing to do with "oh th spit 16 can do this and that so im going to fly it" i fly it becouse in my eyes its a fu*king killing machine and it doesnt deserve to be called a dweeb plane so please DONT BE CALLING BRITISH PLANES NAMES except the disasters lol
:aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Ki61 is not faster than the VIII, XVI, or XIV. It might be faster than the spitIX at certain altitudes(?), but it is a slow plane, on the order of a hurri2c or the spitv. I don't think it turns much tigther than a spit, but even if it does it has stability issues, and its performance is generally sub-par.
I still like flying it, though!
It's not that slow. It WILL turn with Spit 5's. I've done it without flaps, but with chopping throttle. The Ki61 is more than Par in terms of the whole planeset. It is one of the BEST planes for E Management in the game, but is rarely used. Like EVERY plane it has it's weakness.
But the one thing 99% of the people forget to do, is drain as much of both wing tanks before fighting. If you can, you'll have NO PROBLEM turning and keeping E longer.
BTW, I've run down La's, 38's, a 262, and many Ponies in this. It can be done, but again since "I suck" I'll grab another beer and continue to laugh as I continue to fly it against "superior planes" and shooting them down.
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Originally posted by Widewing
There's nothing wrong with the Spitfire Mk.XVI's flight model, especially with regard to speed, climb and acceleration.
My regards,
Widewing
I wish someone would explain the turn performance to me though. I've run the Gonzo charts on all the Spit variants (including the Seafire), and they just seem "odd".
The Spit XVI and VIII turn almost identically, despite the clipped wings on the XVI. The Seafire, which used to turn almost identical circles with the Spit V, now turns more like a Spit IX. The Spit V has the best turning performance of all the cannon-armed Spits, but the Spit IX (which was a V with an improved engine) has the worst turning performance.
I'd just like to have some real data so that I know what I'm flying (or fighting). First thing I'd like to know is what wing each Mk we have is using - I assume the Spit XVI is a clipped "E" wing because of the armament. Are all the others "C" wing models, or are the ones without 250lb bomb racks actually "B" wing models? Which Merlin engine is supposedly in each model?
I'm with Krusty a bit on this - I've seen some odd things done in a Spit XVI, and I too have been caught from behind in a 109K4 wondering "how the heck he could have caught me at that speed" after pulling out from a dive. I'm not saying definitely that something is screwy with the flight modeling, but I'd like to see some testing done and posted.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I'm with Krusty a bit on this - I've seen some odd things done in a Spit XVI, and I too have been caught from behind in a 109K4 wondering "how the heck he could have caught me at that speed" after pulling out from a dive. I'm not saying definitely that something is screwy with the flight modeling, but I'd like to see some testing done and posted.
EagleDNY
$.02
This is why you need film. You have no idea what that spit's E state was.
I don't want to hear "he just lifted.". One thing I like to do is go to a capped base shallow dive in get lots of smash , run in low along my base and hope a vulcher is foolish enough to follow. Or foolish enough to think he is going to out zoom me.
So film or it's "bullflop".:D
Bronk
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E can be a strange thing
I did not think it was possible but I hit 600mph in a TA152 the otherday.... It was only for a second and I had to be REAL careful pulling out of the dive (she was creaking like hell) but I made it out in one peice.
Surely a Spitty with a big enough dive could get pretty dam fast....
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I wish someone would explain the turn performance to me though. I've run the Gonzo charts on all the Spit variants (including the Seafire), and they just seem "odd".
The Spit XVI and VIII turn almost identically, despite the clipped wings on the XVI. The Seafire, which used to turn almost identical circles with the Spit V, now turns more like a Spit IX. The Spit V has the best turning performance of all the cannon-armed Spits, but the Spit IX (which was a V with an improved engine) has the worst turning performance.
I'd just like to have some real data so that I know what I'm flying (or fighting). First thing I'd like to know is what wing each Mk we have is using - I assume the Spit XVI is a clipped "E" wing because of the armament. Are all the others "C" wing models, or are the ones without 250lb bomb racks actually "B" wing models? Which Merlin engine is supposedly in each model?
I'm with Krusty a bit on this - I've seen some odd things done in a Spit XVI, and I too have been caught from behind in a 109K4 wondering "how the heck he could have caught me at that speed" after pulling out from a dive. I'm not saying definitely that something is screwy with the flight modeling, but I'd like to see some testing done and posted.
EagleDNY
$.02
First easy part - XVI's had an improved stiffer spar, and other refinements to the wing that made it generally less flexible than the 'c' wing. Thats why the clipped XVI can turn with the VIII.
[edit] Just remembered - It was also suggested in a thread a long time ago that some of the Mk VIII's F.E. had incorrectly been based on an VIII with extended tips, but no idea what came of the discussion.
Wings - Engines by service date (roughly)
I - 'a' wing - Merlin III?
V - 'b' wing - Merlin 46
IX - unversal wing - Merlin 61
Seafire IIc - 'c' wing - Merlin 46 (not sure where the data came from for this one, but appears to a mix of a Seafire Ib and IIc)
VIII - universal wing - Merlin 66
XIV - 'e' wing - Griffon 65
XVI - clipped 'e' wing - Merlin 266 (U.S. Made Merlin 66) NB: Ours is actually based on a Merlin 66
Wish they'd fix the XIV and give it climb it actually had!!!!
Should also point out that there have been various debates about Spit IX wings regarding 'c' wings, universal wings, and what some call the improved universal wing.
Also that contrary to what kit manufacturers would have you believe a IXc never existed, only the IX and IXe.
To further complicate things pilots themselves would often refer to Merlin 61 Spit IX's as IXa's, and Merlin 66 Spit IX's as IXb's.
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Originally posted by mussie
E can be a strange thing
I did not think it was possible but I hit 600mph in a TA152 the otherday.... It was only for a second and I had to be REAL careful pulling out of the dive (she was creaking like hell) but I made it out in one peice.
Surely a Spitty with a big enough dive could get pretty dam fast....
In another Spit related thread one day someone was trying to tell me they could make me rip the wings off a Spit XVI. I argued that I'd black out first and never have the opportunity to rip them off (I never had in a XVI even though I've pushed well past the point of creaking and shuddering).
Well, a week or so later I was chasing a fast bogie from alt, I think it was a 190. The nose wanted to lift, the airframe was creaking and the plane began to shudder but I was gaining ground and kept the peddle to the metal chasing this guy down. I don't know what speed i was actually going but it had to be well over 500 IAS.
Then I noticed the guy was diving to his field ack and, not wanting to become ack bait I decided I better pull out. I barely touched the yoke and immediately both wings snapped off.
I was flying with a squad mate in another XVI who stayed up top. He couldn't believe it.
Proved me wrong. Funny thing about E and yes, you can get a XVI cooking in a dive.
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You don't have to be in a high-powered dive to rip spit wings off. I've done it at 300 or so just by pulling too hard on the stick. It's very annoying.
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Originally posted by Krusty
You don't have to be in a high-powered dive to rip spit wings off. I've done it at 300 or so just by pulling too hard on the stick. It's very annoying.
Only if you are damaged before or maybe continously overstressed your plane. I have yet to lose a wing by any other means than bullets or trees. I even tried to shed my wings at speeds 300-350mph, without success.
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It might have been that they were stressed, but I've done it without taking hits (and sometimes after taking hits). It's common enough that I always throttle back when I start creaking, and I ease up on my stick pulling when I creak. I'd rather blow my position than rip my wings off, eh?
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Originally posted by Krusty
You don't have to be in a high-powered dive to rip spit wings off. I've done it at 300 or so just by pulling too hard on the stick. It's very annoying.
Like I said, I've pushed well past the point of airfrme tolerence many times and never ripped the wings off a Spit (although it was common in AW), which was why I argued the point so adamantly in that other thread.
The day that I did they didn't actually rip, they snapped off at the wing roots as soon as they caught a little air.
I can't believe they would come off at 300. If you pull too hard at 300 you will simply black out.
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I wish someone would explain the turn performance to me though. I've run the Gonzo charts on all the Spit variants (including the Seafire), and they just seem "odd".
The Spit XVI and VIII turn almost identically, despite the clipped wings on the XVI. The Seafire, which used to turn almost identical circles with the Spit V, now turns more like a Spit IX. The Spit V has the best turning performance of all the cannon-armed Spits, but the Spit IX (which was a V with an improved engine) has the worst turning performance.
I'd just like to have some real data so that I know what I'm flying (or fighting). First thing I'd like to know is what wing each Mk we have is using - I assume the Spit XVI is a clipped "E" wing because of the armament. Are all the others "C" wing models, or are the ones without 250lb bomb racks actually "B" wing models? Which Merlin engine is supposedly in each model?
I'm with Krusty a bit on this - I've seen some odd things done in a Spit XVI, and I too have been caught from behind in a 109K4 wondering "how the heck he could have caught me at that speed" after pulling out from a dive. I'm not saying definitely that something is screwy with the flight modeling, but I'd like to see some testing done and posted.
EagleDNY
$.02
Turning radius as posted on DokGonzo's page are based upon the testing of one pilot. I sometimes generate a smaller turn radius testing the same aircraft. Sometimes a bit larger. One can fly too deep into a stall buffet, which actually increases the radius while reducing the turn rate. To get a more accurate collection of data, more testing needs to done by different pilots, with the best repeatable data being used.
When I test them, I find the SpitVIII turns a smaller radius than the SpitXVI by about 24 feet. Not much, but enough. It's also more stable at the limit, which I find to be of greater value than the minor turn radius advantage. You push the SpitVIII a bit harder than the SpitXVI.
The Seafire has had it's flight model adjusted to reflect the correct weight (it is 13% heavier than the SpitV). Thus, it doesn't turn like a SpitV.
I find that SpitIX turns as well as the SpitVIII, but in a sustained circle contest the SpitVIII's greater power can be decisive.
My regards,
Widewing
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DkGonzo's site, using Mosq's turn radius datas lists the Spitfire numbers as follows;
* Spit8: 568ft normal, 448ft flaps
* Spit9: 632ft normal, 433ft flaps
* Spit16: 567ft normal, 450ft flaps
* Spit14: 629ft normal, 509ft flaps
The data above seems a bit erratic, in that the relationships of the planes' turn radius is something like " (Spit8 = Spit16) < (Spit14 = Spit9) ". Logically, the Spit8 and the Spit9 should be near identical, since the Spit8 is essentially a Spit LF9. The Spit16 should have a somewhat larger radius than both the Spit8 and the Spit9, with the Spit14 coming in last.
Now, compare above numbers with my own test numbers below. This is in no way an attempt to defile Mosq's efforts, but rather a presentation of a 2nd opinion. My turn radius testings uses a purely mechanical method which takes away as much human skill factor as possible.
* Spit8: 560ft normal, 466ft flaps
* Spit9: 571ft normal, 460ft flaps
* Spit16: 599ft normal, 443ft flaps
* Spit14: 666ft normal, 546ft flaps
The numbers are more or less as expected with this version of test results.
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I'm not saying that the numbers on that site are correct or incorrect, but a few things to remember are that those numbers measure sustained turning circle, and do not account for turn time. Of course, usually larger engine means a wider circle but a faster turn, so that still doesn't explain the Spitfire's crazy turns on that site. I'd expect the heavier Spitfires, because of their improved engines, to have the widest turns but best acceleration and climb and also the best turn times (which that site doesn't list). With that in mind, I'd be more inclined to believe that Kweassa's numbers are more correct. Kweassa, how did you measure the turn circles' diameter?
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Radius.
My figures can be defined as;
"tighest sustained turn possible on highest throttle setting at constant speed"
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I'm not saying that the numbers on that site are correct or incorrect, but a few things to remember are that those numbers measure sustained turning circle, and do not account for turn time. Of course, usually larger engine means a wider circle but a faster turn, so that still doesn't explain the Spitfire's crazy turns on that site. I'd expect the heavier Spitfires, because of their improved engines, to have the widest turns but best acceleration and climb and also the best turn times (which that site doesn't list). With that in mind, I'd be more inclined to believe that Kweassa's numbers are more correct. Kweassa, how did you measure the turn circles' diameter?
Those numbers do factor in turning time. Time is a key variable in the equation. You need to know speed and time to calculate turn radius.
If I fly three continuous circles and it requires 50 seconds at an average speed of 120 mph, I can determine the average turn radius.
120 / 60 = miles per minute, or 2.0
2.0 X 5280 = feet per minute or 10,560
10560 / 60 = Feet per second or 176
176 x 50 = total distance traveled or 8800 feet
8800 / 3 = circumference of average circle or 2933.33 feet
2933.33 / Pi (3.14) = diameter of circle or 934.18 feet
934.12 / 2 = radius of circle or 467.09 feet.
With a stop watch, calculator and proper technique, anyone can measure their turn radius. Proper technique is the most important factor. This requires a disciplined scientific approach or the data will reflect only the skill limits of the pilot and not the limits of the aircraft.
Kweessa uses the same equation, but I recall that he uses stall limiter, which takes the pilot out of the equation. However, this limits how hard the plane can be pushed. You can always turn a smaller circle with stall limiter off. His circles will be bigger, but he will not have pilot induced anomalies. Thus, the relationship between the aircraft is maintained, if not exactly reflective of their absolute performance.
My regards,
Widewing
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I've just spent about twenty minutes thinking about that and poking at Calculator. I'm no good with mathematics, so help me understand. It is impossible for an aircraft to traverse the same circle as another aircraft in a shorter period of time? No, that can't be right. So how do you know if one ship completed the circle slower than ... no, that doesn't make sense. Let me try again. I've always thought that a ship that has a wider turn, by completing that turn faster, could out-turn another airplane which has a tighter turn. But your calculations seem to say that this is impossible. How can you calculate which aircraft will complete the same turn quicker ... argh, my head hurts. I'll get back to you on this.
Okay, I've figured it out, I think. Taking your hypothetical fighter which can complete a sustained turn in 17 seconds at a speed of 120 M.P.H. with a diameter of 952 feet, I did the same calculations only at a speed of 145 M.P.H. This fighter only took 14 seconds to make the same 952 foot diameter circle. They both completed the same circle, but the second fighter did it three seconds earlier and therefore out-turned the first one. The problem with the charts the list only turn radius or diameter is that they do not specify speeds and times. As I just calculated, two aircraft with identical turn radii can have different turn times.
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I remember postin a question about turn circles and calculations and getting good answers. Was years ago, but should be able to find.
I posted and the title was something like "G load and turn calculations".
Anyway, this of the Ki61:
"It's not that slow. It WILL turn with Spit 5's"
I think this is not correct but would be nice to know. Spent quite some time turning a Spit VIII with a Ki61 yesterday, - quite a few circles and I had him.
And the Spit V turns quite a bit better...
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You've got me thinking more about this, and you are right - the faster spitfire can turn a 360 in a shorter time even though the circle isn't as tight. I see this phenomenon all the time when our horses make a move on the outside going into the far turn and come out in the lead going into the stretch ;) -- they are a little slower than spitfires, but the principle is the same. A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).
Which is why it is quite useful to understand the concept of Corner Velocity.
My regards,
Widewing
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A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).
It's also a double edged sword.
In terms of offense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you will soon cross his 3-9 line. It gives the defending enemy plane a very favorable opportunity to turn into you and reverse the situation by scissors.
In terms of defense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you can't turn tight enough to stay out of the enemy's lead angle. You may ultimately be able to turn out of his reach with a faster turning speed.. but the chances are you'll be shot down before that happens. The enemy has a gun solution on you.
...
IMO, this is the reason why so often the simplistic turn radius, is usually more important than either the turn rate or turn speed. Maintaining a better turning rate may greatly benefit when a pure 1vs1 duel happens, with two planes of comparable performance starting off from an equal altitude and entering a classic merge. However, in the no-holds-barred world of MA combat, its almost always either you attacking someone else, or someone else attacking you. More ofthen than not you rarely have the leisure to stay around your favorable corner speed, and in many cases will be forced to turn as tight as possible.
I've felt the importance of maintaining an overall better turning rate first-hand, during those instances when I was forced into a 1vs1 situation against better pilots. It makes a lot of difference in those kinds of fights. But considering such fights are rare, and more often than not avoidable, frankly I think its not a very practical concept IMO. Its almost always the radius of turn - instant or sustained - that is important.
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Dweebfire, dweebfire, burning bright...
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Hey whats the most manuverbale spitfire?:noid
(http://www.adrenalin.bc.ca/wings/pix/spitfire.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
In terms of defense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you can't turn tight enough to stay out of the enemy's lead angle. You may ultimately be able to turn out of his reach with a faster turning speed.. but the chances are you'll be shot down before that happens. The enemy has a gun solution on you.
IMO, this is the reason why so often the simplistic turn radius, is usually more important than either the turn rate or turn speed. Maintaining a better turning rate may greatly benefit when a pure 1vs1 duel happens, with two planes of comparable performance starting off from an equal altitude and entering a classic merge. However, in the no-holds-barred world of MA combat, its almost always either you attacking someone else, or someone else attacking you. More ofthen than not you rarely have the leisure to stay around your favorable corner speed, and in many cases will be forced to turn as tight as possible.
I've felt the importance of maintaining an overall better turning rate first-hand, during those instances when I was forced into a 1vs1 situation against better pilots. It makes a lot of difference in those kinds of fights. But considering such fights are rare, and more often than not avoidable, frankly I think its not a very practical concept IMO. Its almost always the radius of turn - instant or sustained - that is important.
I've noticed this. For years I've been trying to master the ability to effectively turn at my corner turning speed while the other guy turns at maximum angle of attack with full flaps. I've never been able to actually out-turn a roughly equal pilot in a similar airplane while doing that (even going around and around for minutes), but I have been able to suddenly move into the vertical a second before he fires, and watch him wallow in his now-inferior energy state. It's my second best defensive maneuver, actually. I'll try to post a film sometime.
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Fly spitfires, lalas and nikis all ya want. Id rather land one kill in most other planes than 10 in any of the 3 dweeb rides. :)
If you like quake or counterstrike then the 3 dweeb rides are perfect.
:D
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Originally posted by VooWho
Once I was doing 500mph in a dive with a P51D and over shot a spit 16 flying straight probably doing about 275-325mph and I pulled up and climbed at 525mph and the 16 beat me at a climb and shot me down. I don't know how, but it did. I climbed like 6k and started stalling (HEHE I got this noob) then I look back and his 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 900, 800, 700, then BOOM! Thats why I hate it so much. Its just a bug always following you around, and you can't get it away from you.
How do you think a 190A8 pilot think about the 16??
What you describe happen to the 190A8 pilot even if a HurriIIc is on his tail. :rolleyes:
Otherwise, i dont know many people who call all Spits a dweeb plane.
When the SpitV got derated a bit(the former dweeb Spit) the Spit16 came and show a better turn performence and stall handling than the full wing Spits, what afaik is a real big mistake.
But to talk about Spits as dweeb planes in general is absolut BS!!
To survive in a SpitV and even SpitIXc need a pretty good defencive skill, cause this planes are so slow.
Sure they fly nice, turn tight etc, but there is only the Spit16 left that behave very strange, but in oposide to the La7 i can outrun it in a 190A8.
There are other, more dangerus Dweeb planes!!
Tempest, F4U-4(mainly due to the "magical flaps"), F4U-1C and La7 comes to mind, but even the HurriIIc we can call a dweeb plane, if we compare it with the other 1941-mid44 planes. At low level it outclimb the following planes particular by easy: P40, SpitV, SpitIXc, A6M2, A6M5, F4F, 109E, maybe more. The following outclimb it by a little: 109F, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8 maybe more. This in combination with its tight turn and very small E-bleed make it to one of the best 1941/42 fighters. In a 190A8 you can get crazy while tying to get into a advanced positon. Specialy if we compare the SpitV with the HurrII we can see the strange behaviour.
But there are even dweeb 109īs. The 109F4 almost perform with a Spit14 and overcome the 190A8 by easy. Even in a dive the 190A8 have probelms to get rid of the F4 althought it have almost 500HP more power and 1500kg more weight and even after the 190A8 did gain 2k distance and start to a smooth upzoom with more speed, the 109F still will outzoom it.
If i compare the 109G6(our DB605 seems to have 1475PS) with the F4 we see a same strange result. The G6 have more power, more inertia, but the F4 outzoom the G6 and even the G2 fly rather like with 1310HP in relation to the F4. While the G2 perform rather good vs the SpitIXc and other mid/late war planes.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I've noticed this. For years I've been trying to master the ability to effectively turn at my corner turning speed while the other guy turns at maximum angle of attack with full flaps. I've never been able to actually out-turn a roughly equal pilot in a similar airplane while doing that (even going around and around for minutes), but I have been able to suddenly move into the vertical a second before he fires, and watch him wallow in his now-inferior energy state. It's my second best defensive maneuver, actually. I'll try to post a film sometime.
Hi Benny,
there are only a few propeller planes that have a better turn performence at higher speed than the current stallspeed, at least while a powered flight.
Almost only planes with a bad propeller for slow speed(no constant speed prop) will have this effect.
In oposide to Jet planes, propeller planes in general dont have a other cornerspeed than the stallspeed, while horizontal turning.
Thats caused by the decreasing propeller thrust with increasing speed, while the jet thrust remain rather constant. Only a few planes gain more drag advantage by flying faster, than they lose thrust at same time.
But to outturn a oponent by using the corner speed even dont work in jets, cause althought you might have more G as result, you aslo use a wider radius, so the turn rate dont will increase.
Though, to know the cornerspeed, or in case of the propeller planes, the speed of smalest drag, is very usefull for a more tactical dogfight. While B&Z but also while defencive manouvers thats very usefull.
Actually iam not sure if this effects are realy modeled in AH anyway.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
....there are only a few propeller planes that have a better turn performence at higher speed than the current stallspeed, at least while a powered flight....
i think if you start banking at stall speed you'll either start decending or begin a spin cause you lose vertical lift, plus you lose pull some Gs so there is more weight to carry around the turn...
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My biggest problem is not knowing the weights and power settings. For instance, testing of the real P-38 indicated that corner turning speed was 230 M.P.H. However, that changes with weight, power, and altitude. I have no idea what it is for my 16,000 pound P-38L on the deck at War Emergency Power.
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pylits in combat weren't looking it up on a table or e6b, they were just owning it around the circle fast as they could. if u watch the DG you can find your best configuration for turning pretty fast
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Originally posted by Debonair
i think if you start banking at stall speed you'll either start decending or begin a spin cause you lose vertical lift, plus you lose pull some Gs so there is more weight to carry around the turn...
Of course you 1st bank and then aproache the stall while a turn.
Benny, simply get the plane close to a stall, then you will get the best result regarding the radius and turnrate while a sustained turn. Of course you will turn much better as long as you have swing.
Best sustained turn speed is what you are looking for, not "cornerspeed".
The speed of smalest drag you need if you wanna make effective E-fight, cause at this speed the airframe turn and climb most effective, but as i wrote before, in a propeller plane this dont result into a real "cornerspeed", like in Jets. In Jets the cornerspeed is also tend to be the best climb and turn speed, cause the thrust is rather constant, while the thrust of a propeller plane decrease much with increasing speed.
So althought the speed of smalest drag is maybe at 230mph, the best climbspeed is at around 160mph, simply cause the propeller produce much more thrust at 160mph than at 230mph. The drag advantage at 230mph dont count much in relation to the thrust lost.
Only if you be already fast and you wanna keep as many energy as you can, you can use the speed of smalest drag.
Greetings,
Knegel
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To answer the original question here (http://www.eel.homechoice.co.uk/film1238.ahf) is a film demonstrating the dweebiness of a Spit 9. Its 30 mins long but the dweebiness in question happens in the first 10 to 12mins.
The highlights are -
Diving on a 3.5k Spit 9 from 10k in a Yak U but unable to catch it even though I reach 500 mph.
Spit 9 accelerating by 60 mph even though in a sustained flat turn pulling up to 5gs.
Accelerating by 127mph in 5 secs in level flight after turn fighting on the deck.
Approx 1,429 attempts at HO's in 12 mins.
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Spit 14s my ride, love it and I dont give a damn what people say:D
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Originally posted by devil956
Spit 14s my ride, love it and I dont give a damn what people say:D
I love the spit 14 also...no bombs but the one of the best dogfighters in the game...Its got the guns, turn rate and speed...Awesome aircraft
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14 is great, but hardest model of the spits since it is not a "pull on the stick" kind of plane. Tough to control at slow speeds and very dependent on the WEP.
A real 5 minutes wonder, second in that respect only to the P47-N.
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XIV is great, be even better if they fixed the climb rate and turn rate problems with it.
Still not worth a perk price (even if it was at 21lbs boost) considering down low where the MA mess is it's nothing special.
It's true environment is up over 25k where it really starts to shine.
Strangely enough every other true high alt plane, P-47N, Ta-152 are free, hmmmmmm.
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kev...u diversion of 5 perks are free.....gotcha
id say the same thing
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Originally posted by spikes
kev...u diversion of 5 perks are free.....gotcha
id say the same thing
:huh :huh :huh :huh
Can anyone translate this gibberish?
Bronk
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no
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Originally posted by Serenity
Im basing this on the fact that:
1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude
2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds
3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating.
I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things.
Must have been that Spit Varient with JATO... 10k and 500mph in 60 sec....
your kidding right?
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Originally posted by stickpig
Originally posted by Serenity
Im basing this on the fact that:
1) no plane can hover upside down, doing 50 mph TOPS and losing no altitude
2) No propeller plane can take off, climb 10,000 feet, all the while accelerating to 500mph in under 60 seconds
3) No propeller plane with the weight of a Spitfire and an engine of that era can begin an 80 degree climb at 120mph and reach 360mph IN the climb while still accelerating.
I have seen a Spitfire XVI do all of the above things.
Must have been that Spit Varient with JATO... 10k and 500mph in 60 sec....
your kidding right?
RE: number 2 -
Considering its top speed is around 404mph at 21k, I find it extremely hard to believe one took off and accelerated in a climb to 500mph.