Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: AAolds on January 30, 2007, 12:06:46 PM
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Is it possible to add submarines or other maritime vehicles to the game? Would be cool depth charge a sub or sink a CV the old fashioned way.
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AAolds: A search of this bbs will reveal many posts on subs. Bottom line: HiTech has it on his to-do-list, but it was bumped way to the right in the production timeline, due to Combat Tour development. Follow the following link to an interview I did with HiTech for "The Wargamer" a few years back (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp) .
The third page has the info about submarines in it.
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I agree subs would be cool. But I'm willing to bet; not being a programmer, that it would be a royal p.i.t.a. to implement in this game the way it is structured.
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I think a U-boat that could catch a 30 knot plus task group would be
a fascinating vehicle to observe.
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I did not know subs had been covered already. I think I understand that in order for sub n such to be playable that much work has to be done and that it may not work out at all. Just adding my .5 cents to the wishlist.
King Tigers and Panther tanks would be cool too.
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Submarines can already be generated by 3D modelers like me, our problem is we can only attach it to a task group, and the submarine cannot dive, fire torpedoes, or use his periscope.
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Everyone pretty much knows, or should know they can be modeled. Silent service has been around for 20 years or more. The problem as I see it would be as outlined above, the diving. The AHII model has had a lot of problems with GV's spawning in trees & falling into holes in the terrain etc. It was explained that they "drop" from above onto the terrain when they spawn, a sub would be an easy addition if it was to be a surface vessel only, but diving with the current structure of the game? Like I said, I'm no programmer but I see where that would be a problem with the current structure of this game.
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(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/pics/NZ%20Navy.jpg)
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Why the periscope when they have eyes, or are those eyes hidden torpedoes?:cool:
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Originally posted by Denholm
Why the periscope when they have eyes, or are those eyes hidden torpedoes?:cool:
For submerged approach to target, of course!:rolleyes:
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I heard a rumor that those sheep had infrared eyes, no need for periscopes if you have infrared!:rolleyes:
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y they need to see if they got hidden nook launchers:rolleyes:
they just launch in the vincinity of their taget and bye bye :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Ever think about something? After you detonate a nuclear device, the area cannot be re-entered without radiation exposure for about 100 years. If you constantly detonate nuclear weapons all over the earth, humans will literally be squished into tin cans attempting to avoid radiation exposure.
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yep:t
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HELLO! YOU'RE A HUMAN!
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maybe im a computer:rolleyes:
nah ill just live on the future military base ON THE MOON:D
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When they build a base on the moon they will have to consider the fact that it takes 1 hour + to put on a space suit, and that's just to go to the local grocery store. Plus, if you were a computer, howcome do you have so many posts with incorrect grammar?
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Originally posted by Denholm
if you were a computer, howcome do you have so many posts with incorrect grammar?
no spellcheck?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Denholm
Ever think about something? After you detonate a nuclear device, the area cannot be re-entered without radiation exposure for about 100 years. If you constantly detonate nuclear weapons all over the earth, humans will literally be squished into tin cans attempting to avoid radiation exposure.
(Somewhat off topic, but I'll respond anyway with...) Not necessarily. An airburst causes much less fallout and long-term radiation than a ground burst. The atomic bomb that dropped on Hiroshima was detonated at approximately 5,000 feet (IIRC). That city, along with Nagisaki, are inhabited today (indeed, they began rebuilding them rather shortly after the war), although ground-zero is a park now. That is not to say some materials don't remain dangerously "hot" for decades (metal, for example), but the ground itself dosn't remain hot nearly as long as you think.
For your edification, air bursts are generally preferred because they cause much higher over-pressures than a ground-burst, while minimizing fallout (which can be nearly as dangerous to the attacker as the attacked). The exception would be hardened subterrainian targets, where you're looking to crater the area in the hopes of breaching the facility.
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Originally posted by Denholm
Plus, if you were a computer, howcome do you have so many posts with incorrect grammar?
I tried modeling him after Hitech, but I got more of a Hitech/Skuzzy superclone
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Originally posted by mentalguy
I tried modeling him after Hitech, but I got more of a Hitech/Skuzzy superclone
I Coad? :rolleyes: :rofl
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there r already AH subs.
it is always daytime so they r always running submergd:noid:noid:noid:O, etc.
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Don't see it happening.
Water model would have to be completely redone to include ocean floor. CV's already too easy to kill the way they are operated now. There would be endless calls for PBY's, air dropped depth charges, DD player control, DD depth charges, sonar added to radar, hedgehogs, more and larger convoys to attack....
Too much to the whole sub thing for what is essentially an WWII air combat game.
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That's pretty much what I always said, yet I gave up when the response was always, "Nuh uh!".
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HTC grandfather fought in WW2 and was a Submariner. HTC did say at a convention that he was going to add the sub sometime. No need to request it because it might just show up in the game.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
CV's already too easy to kill the way they are operated now.
There ya have it; subs would never get a chance to fire a shot unless they auto-spawned in range of the nearest fleet.
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Actually, subs could be allowed to spawn from ports, or satellite ports (sort of like PT's spawning from certain bases), and have a certain zone into which they could spawn. Much like the Germans did in the Battle of the Atlantic, people could use scout planes to spot the CV groups and figure their general heading. Then the scout reports would give the players spawning subs an idea where to spawn. The sub then sets up a patrol route to intercept the CV group. The sub would get one, maybe two chances to shoot before they CV group passes them by. If the sub gets in a couple of hits, the CV group would then be slowed by damage, and the sub gets a chance to finish the job.
Programming the ASW aspect is the hard part. That and whatever they want to do about a fire control computer.
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Im afraid that including subs would either take a huge ammount of programming and totally change the whole gameplay, or it would be way to simplistic and arcade like to drive them. Taking subs up to, or even close to that of Silent Hunter 1 would prolly be a nightmare.
Im all for adding more types of boats tho, including landing craft that could take tanks. They could spawn abit off shore, and when they hit the beach you could just hit a key and you get transferred to the tank driving position.
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Go here http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp to read what Dale said about subs. He describes a bit how they would likely work. Yes, it would be an ambitious project, but one that he wants to do at some point. From what he told me, it sounds like there would be a fleet-like element -- call it a "wolfpack" that would move on the map like the current task force (albeit a bit slower). Players could set way points to move the wolfpack into position, then players would spawn a uboat from that location. At that point, you would make attacks on your targets.
In addition to torpedos, subs back then carried deck guns (usually 3-inch, but one French sub actually had twin 8-inch guns), machine guns, and mines, so they would not necessarily be limited in how they could be used. While slow underwater, they were considerably faster on the surface. Indeed, many night attacks were carried out surfaced. So, subs could be used to set up minefields in chock-points or to discourage bringing fleets close in shore. Remember too the rather unhistorical employment of fleets in AH, cruising back and forth off an enemy base. In this case, subs could literally surround the enemy surface fleet and fire salvos as the crossed back and forth (ducks in a shooting gallery). Sure, you'd have to be lucky to get carry out a successful intercept and attack on the open oceans, but our AH fleets spend little time in that element. Instead, they are used in litoral waters, where slow "pig boats" (US term for diesel-electric subs) are most effective.
The biggest challenge for HTC would be surface ASW, since that requires direct player control of a DE or DD, implementation of sonar, hyrdophones, and myriad of other details in modeling the surface and subsurface environment. Nonetheless, it would be a great addition to the game.
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Also, there is another slight challenge. Firing the torpedoes. The torpedo's fins were adjusted so that the torpedo would fire out straight then start heading say 10º to the right. This is so that the sub's could hit a moving target. I do however have a suggestion.
Make the periscope the "F6" view, and give it the regular bomber calibration mode. Except this time the calibration mode has to lock onto it's target, the sight has to remain steady as you mark the point. The distance of the target from your location is measured, the speed of the moving target as well. Then the calibration mode will automatically adjust the torpedo's fins to align the torpedo with it's target.
That way we won't have this complicated method of attempting to adjust the fins ourselves.
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Subs could be modelled like CVs in that anyone can take control. When not in control they run on the surface, when you take control you have the option of diving. The aim is to move the submarines to the vicinity of where you think the enemy fleet will be.
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Reality check: we can't get maps and planes from wish list added to the game as it is, with all that would need to be changed in the water model to allow subs in the first place is a daunting task..... and ASW operations are not a visually cued fight, unlike everything else in the game right not. Adding sonar, player controlled destroyers, the list goes on.
To build a WWII combat sim on that scale, and to do it right, I think you'd have to consider starting over with an AH-3 project, not adding onto the existing game.
And, by reports, TOD is getting the lion's share of time right now.
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...but there's no harm in discussing stuff and providing feedback - maybe giving HTC ideas as to how to extend AH.
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well, from that Interview posted above, I think Dales time scale has gone out of the window! For AH 1.08 in 2001
The biggest change I will be doing will be submarines in the next year.
Bitty out there eh? But shows that their coming. Just sit tight and wait!
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we need subs someday...but too much programing
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If I was a moderator, you'd have been banned for spamming ages ago.
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Benny, we have the freedom to give HTC feedback on what we would like, the majority of us agreed that adding submarines would require too much programming. I once thought of the things that would have to happen if we wanted subs a long time ago. It settles back to:
1. Water tiles need to be updated to support "diving".
2. User Operated destroyers would have to be added.
3. SONAR would have to be applied to the destroyer to locate submerged submarines.
4. Depth charges would be demanded instantly, therefore would have to be added along with the release of the subs, destroyer, and SONAR.
The majority of us agreed it's simply too much that has to be done to have the submarines appear in-game. Yet we all knew it would be interesting to see sumbarines in-game.
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I am with adding them as surface ships...they just roam with the TG
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The 3D designers in the Free Multiplayer (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=61) forum can make one such as that. I know I can, I'm just too lazy right now to even try. NOTE: As far as I am aware, you wouldn't be able to fire any torpedoes, only man guns on top of the submarine.
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the guns on the crusiers...say those?
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I wouldn't do that, most submarines only had one or two really huge guns.
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oh, I didnt know that...thought they were smaller guns
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Most WWII subs had no more than one large deck gun, though large is a relative term; it tended to be in the 3 to 5-inch range. Additionally, they mounted one or two smaller calibre guns, such as 20-mm, as well as several machine guns. All but the deck gun were primarily for air defence; the big deck gun was used to take targets were risk of counter attack was minimal, and to sink cripples. A notable exception was the French submarine Surcouf, which mounted two 8-inch guns in a forward turret (http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/FrenchSubmarineSurcoufthe.html). She was a monster by WWII standards and carried a seaplane for scouting.
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Originally posted by Rino
I think a U-boat that could catch a 30 knot plus task group would be
a fascinating vehicle to observe.
It's easy. Just be in front of the Task Group. Not that any of us actually have the patience to lay in wait lol.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Rino
I think a U-boat that could catch a 30 knot plus task group would be
a fascinating vehicle to observe.
Since the submarines would be an individual player operated unit, it would spawn like a PT boat. Either you could scout in a plane and spot an enemy CV group yourself, or listen to scout reports from other players on your country channel. Then you look and find the submarine spawn point that gives you the best chance of a fairly quick and sure intercept, and you spawn there and let the CV group come to you. It isn't like submarines actually chased down armed naval vessels in World War II anyway, they laid in wait or patrolled the shipping lanes and took positions in order to let the enemy come to them. And the Germans use Focke Wulf 200 Condors to scout in the Atlantic.
Also, the submarine, because of the stealth and power factor, would be a perk item, you'd have to earn perks in PT boats or maybe as a ship gunner. Figure a submarine would have between 16 and 24 fish, with 6 forward and 4 aft tubes, similar to a Tang class sub. With that, you could take out the CV and the cruiser, and maybe a couple of the destroyers. The CV group would have to have some sort of ASW capability, maybe the ability to spot the sub via SONAR, RADAR, and visual, along with possible air scouting. Then the group would change course and engage the sub with guns on the surface or depth charges. Sinking the sub would also be a way to earn perks to get a sub with. Many of the old diesel/electric boats were faster on the surface, so the speed on the surface would be an incentive for the sub operator to run on the surface, besides charging the batteries to operate submerged. That would give the group a chance at spotting the sub on the surface. Once the sub is forced to dive, it can't out run the group, it must outsmart it or out maneuver it. Or get really brave and try to shoot its way out with torpedos. The very low profile of a sub would make it hard to hit on the surface, and with a 5" deck gun, it could duke it out with 1 or 2 destroyers.
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HTC's idea was different. He suggested a wolf pack controlled in a similar way to a fleet. I thought that was a neat solution as subs are so slow.
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I really enjoyed Captain Virgil Hilts' idea. It sounds very neat, although it would be time consuming trying to make it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Once the sub is forced to dive, it can't out run the group, it must outsmart it or out maneuver it. Or get really brave and try to shoot its way out with torpedos.
I think thats the problem we all talked about...How couold we make it dive...would need major changes.
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make it use similar to aircaft controls trouttle controls power and u dives like u were diving in a airplane
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But the problem with this is that you would need to redo the water tiles completely...on all the maps...that alone is hard to do.
You see a CV go through the water..it has its little wake...while the water around it is still.
Plus the fact...when you dive...how would you see around you
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parascope?
and the water tiles wont have to be changed that much just add the "sea floor" below the water tiles and have it so u cant see unless u use a parascope (can be seen by someone with a keen eye):confused:
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true...or ext view..just make it above water
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This is the bug with the water tile.
If you have a map where there is a water tile elevated, take a PT and swim into it. You will FALL THROUGH IT. You won't go over it, through it, but you will fall through it. If a sub tried to dive on the current water tile coding we have right now it would never stop diving.
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Perhaps the diving would just be a replay of set scene - a short vignette. The sub captain would watch this from outside with little control (maybe turning) until just the periscope rmains then he can take control again.
Why does a sub need to physically 'dive' at all anyway? It could just gently change shape from 'sub on the surface' to 'decks awash' to 'periscope only'. Nothing need actually go under water, the bottom of the sub is truncated at the water's surface. Is this similar to the PT boat now?
On the other hand - that's still a chunk of programming either way .
I seem to recall that subs of the period could only cruise at 4-5 knots with the periscope up because of vibration in the mast. Max speed submerged was pretty darn slow too - 7-11 knots I think. I can't remember the details.
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Look out, we'll have people wishing for orions after we get this one!:cool: