Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bsdaddict on January 31, 2007, 12:42:26 PM
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oh joy. a new draft bill has been introduced in the House. If I wasn't exempt I'd be getting worried. Universal National Service Act of 2007 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.393:)
parents, how do you feel about the prospect of your kids being enslaved?
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the democrats want a draft, vote no in 08.
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I get angry every time I see a bill like this. What a waist of taxpayers money. When war is declared, doesnt John Q Public enlist? When a state of emergency is declared the government usually is the one to drag their feet. I just don't see the point of some people wasting their time writing this stuff. Lets hope it doesn't get burried with some other bills getting signed.
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Originally posted by Kuhn
Lets hope it doesn't get burried with some other bills getting signed.
my money's on this getting attached to some new domestic abuse bill, or something similar that has a big emotional pull that our representatives just can't vote against...
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Rangel has been talking about restoring the draft ever since 9/11. Unfortunately I am not exempt from this particular bill.
"To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security..."
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I am not against the concept of mandatory national service, but the feds might want to talk to the states first. This subject is at least worthy of a good healthy debate among intelligent adults..................oh SNAP!
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it better fail.
To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to make permanent the favorable treatment afforded combat pay under the earned income tax credit, and for other purposes.
WTF amend the IRS code, what does that have to do with a draft? and see how they craftly add or in civilian service [/b] to make seem like you get a choice :rolleyes:
I think I read about this guy Rangel before, early in the month. Another congressman said Rangel submits this bill every year trying to get a draft started. Story pretty much indicated the bill had no chance of being passed
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Well we are at WAR ya know.
Good way to drive down costs, we have many 3rd world folks working for slave wages to keep the cost of our stuff down.
It will work with the military as well, if you have a pool of millions to draw from, you can cut compensation by 70% and still have a hard time placing all the bodies.
shamus
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Originally posted by Airscrew
it better fail.
WTF amend the IRS code, what does that have to do with a draft?
Military pay does not currently count as earned income when calculating if someone is eligible for the Earned Income Credit. Congress has been trying to get that changed since at least '03. Unfortunately, it always gets bogged down with amendments and ends up dying in committee.
Shame on Rangel for trying to squeeze it into his draft bill where it will fail. He should nut up and submit it as a stand-alone measure.
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the democrats need the draft. The problem with being against the war is....
The people who are actually fighting the war are not against it... no kerries throwing someones medals down and that sort of thing... No crowds of ex soldiers and those who fear they might become soldiers to show on TV..
Nope.. the soldiers think the war is the right thing soooooo... being against the war is seen to be against the troops at this point...
Not good for democrats... they need lot's of anti war soldiers so that they can say they "support the troops" by cutting and running...
The "cut and run" policy and "support the troops" at this point in time are at loggerheads with each other.
lazs
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I'm for the draft. 110%. No exemptions, no deferments. Everyone 18 to 23 serves 5 years. What else can they do that's worthwhile, really?
All the Best,
hap
p.s. All in the 3 branches of government are first in line for kids, grandkids, and great grandkids to serve.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The people who are actually fighting the war are not against it... no kerries throwing someones medals down and that sort of thing... No crowds of ex soldiers and those who fear they might become soldiers to show on TV..
Nope.. the soldiers think the war is the right thing soooooo... being against the war is seen to be against the troops at this point...
I may have missed the sarcasm bit being set, but to make a blanket statement like that shows a complete lack of clue. Just because the soldiers fight the war does not mean they support it, nor think it is right. Tennyson has the definitive quote:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die
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Originally posted by Hap
I'm for the draft. 110%. No exemptions, no deferments. Everyone 18 to 23 serves 5 years. What else can they do that's worthwhile, really?
All the Best,
hap
p.s. All in the 3 branches of government are first in line for kids, grandkids, and great grandkids to serve.
sounds like you don't want a military that can fight, you want a military that will not be sent into battle. Thats what rangel wants.
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Originally posted by Auger
Tennyson has the definitive quote:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die
Tennyson was a poet not a solder.
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It's a revised draft bill. I would like to see some additional categories of comparative service like Fire and Police as long as they are serving in a state recognized department.
Major difference is the inclusion of women from what I saw. I saw there is no exclusion for full time college enrollment, critical job deferment or sole surviving son / daughter. Otherwise it's the same lottery draft we had before.
I really don't have a problem with it, then again I am very much in favor of the Heinlein paradigm of service to grant full citizenship and the right to vote. You can live here if born here but unless you are willing to place body at risk to defend it or perform other civic service considered comparable you don't govern it or vote.
It's hardly what I would call enslavement, then again I'm not chicken little.
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Originally posted by Hap
I'm for the draft. 110%. No exemptions, no deferments. Everyone 18 to 23 serves 5 years. What else can they do that's worthwhile, really?
All the Best,
hap
p.s. All in the 3 branches of government are first in line for kids, grandkids, and great grandkids to serve.
To revolt, that's what we're good for. It's about time we cleaned house on the socialists.
I am one person who will not run to canada if this bill or similar draft bills get enacted. You'll see me on the steps of congress running this country within days.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You'll see me on the steps of congress running this country within days.
Batta Boom!!! :)
I finally get your humor
:rofl
shamus
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
To revolt, that's what we're good for. It's about time we cleaned house on the socialists.
I am one person who will not run to canada if this bill or similar draft bills get enacted. You'll see me on the steps of congress running this country within days.
Did you register for selective service?
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I'm Exempt! I'm EXEMPT!!!
Ohhh yeaaaah Baby!!!!
Wait a minute....
I served 20 Years already in the Army....
Nevermind.
Mac
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http://www.schoolhouserock.tv/Bill.html
This should unbunch your undies.
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Well see, if you submit to national service, then you get to kill a whole pile of Bugs. Once yer done that you can become a citizen and you could even vote!
Oh...wait..nevermind, that was in a movie, sorry for the confusion......carry on.
RTR
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Oh my god, enslaved!!!! Forced to do public service in the defense of the nation that will protect them their entire life!!!
Oh teh Horrarz!
Sheesh:rolleyes:
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I think I'm just going to join the Coast Guard.
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the Coast Guard is fun, you get to stop boat loads of bikini clad girls and "inspect" them.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Did you register for selective service?
I did. My views have changed since then. If it ever got the point where they started drafting (a real full out war), I think I would have volunteered. But I won't be able to say until that day comes.
But the one thing to incur my wrath is to not let me have a choice.
Anyway, in PA at least, you can't get federal grants and loans for college without being registered for selective service.
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As having served 19-1/2 years military, full and part-time, and in places where I got shot at on occasion, I've no problem with national service being a requirement.
I'd have a whole lot of ways you would qualify for it: School teacher = time served. Volunteer or full time fireman or paramedic = good to go. Work at the local animal shelter = okay, next. Police officers = done. Same for doctors and medical techs. Fire forest fires for a season or two. Volunteer at a youth center. Drive for the elderly or deliver them meals. Lot's of possibilities.
Basically anything that comes under the realm of public services, emergency response, or volunteer activities would count toward time served in performing national service. Pick up trash along the road on weekends. Clean up a dump site. Lot's of ways you could get "credit" or "exemption" from service.
Want to buy your way out of it rich kids? Sure... mail the check here, and no, it's NOT tax deductible!
We don't need national service? Maybe not, but I think the nation as a whole could benefit GREATLY from national service, and certainly many of the young adults could benefit from such activities, even if forced to do so. Sense of community? A sense of pride in accomplishment?
Flip side, there would have to be a lot of oversight for many of these activities and a screening process. No good deed goes unpunished.
And to any of you about to cry about "YOUR FREEDOM"..... I'll remind you that your freedom did not come free. It's paid for in blood and sacrifice. Doing some volunteer service seems a pretty cheap price.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --- George Orwell
Time for the rest to pitch in.
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eagl, I think the phrase you are looking for is 0h noes!
Sandy, don't go throwing logic out in a pandemonium thread.
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Originally posted by AWMac
I'm Exempt! I'm EXEMPT!!!
Ohhh yeaaaah Baby!!!!
Wait a minute....
I served 20 Years already in the Army....
Nevermind.
Mac
Don't be so sure..I got a nastygram from Selective service when I was
19 saying I hadn't registered. I wrote one back replying that I had indeed
registered and that if they didn't like it, they could contact me via my
commanding officer at Lowery AFB :rolleyes:
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I know I wouldn't have wanted to serve with guys who didn't want to be there. You guys are forgetting the effect ditching the draft had before. The armed forces had to become competetive, they had to attract people. It was the free market at work. If you've got a volunteer force you've gotta treat 'em better, pay 'em more, help their families more, buy 'em better body armor, etc., and unless things have changed in the last 10 years, enlisted guys have it rough enough.
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Korea has a two tier system... They have regular military officer and enlisted, and their mandatory service (conscript) enlisted troops. It seems to work out well.
A 2 year service tour would in my opinion cure a lot of social problems we have in the US, and it would return the stigma against those who run for public office after having skipped out on their military service.
Imagine that... everyone learning the true meaning of self discipline, honor, and respect at a young age, while gaining an appreciation of what it means to serve a nation that both needs your service, and protects your freedom. Oh yea that would totally ruin everything!
0h t3h No3s!
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Originally posted by lazs2
the democrats need the draft. The problem with being against the war is....
The people who are actually fighting the war are not against it... no kerries throwing someones medals down and that sort of thing... No crowds of ex soldiers and those who fear they might become soldiers to show on TV..
Nope.. the soldiers think the war is the right thing soooooo... being against the war is seen to be against the troops at this point...
Not good for democrats... they need lot's of anti war soldiers so that they can say they "support the troops" by cutting and running...
The "cut and run" policy and "support the troops" at this point in time are at loggerheads with each other.
lazs
Exactly right
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Originally posted by eagl
Korea has a two tier system... They have regular military officer and enlisted, and their mandatory service (conscript) enlisted troops. It seems to work out well.
A 2 year service tour would in my opinion cure a lot of social problems we have in the US, and it would return the stigma against those who run for public office after having skipped out on their military service.
Imagine that... everyone learning the true meaning of self discipline, honor, and respect at a young age, while gaining an appreciation of what it means to serve a nation that both needs your service, and protects your freedom. Oh yea that would totally ruin everything!
0h t3h No3s!
Self discipline, honor and respect are things you need to choose to follow. You can't force it on anyone. Especially if they have no choice as to whether or not you serve.
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Tell that to Israel. ;)
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Explain this 'Selective Service' thing please. Im a bit confused.
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Bringing the draft back is the stupidest thing in the world. Keep the military all volunter. Granted there are troops deployed that do not agree with the war BUT they did volunter to serve, signed a contract, and are expected to do their jobs. If they want out, fine kick em to the curb with NO benifits and be done with them. There are plenty more people willing to take their place.
15 years active duty and a combat vet. Unfortanatly I'm being medicaly retired next month due to a heart problem but I served to the best of my ability for as long as I could and I'm damn proud to say I voluntered for combat duty.
Last thing I want to see is a bunch of cry babies in MY military.
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Not just military service they are talking about.
2 years military is one option, the other is civilian service.
So long as civilian service has a broad range, i don't have a problem with it, and am in favor of it.
Consider anything related to fire, rescue, medical, and law enforcement to be included. Consider workers in the education system. Those that keep utilities operating in emergencies and bad weather.
Coast Guard. Those that fight forest fires. Part time and volunteer firemen, paramedics, and so forth. WWII often exempted oil workers and farmers from service, as these were strategic needs.
Part-time national service could be volunteering to clean up trash, or be involved with building homes for homeless. No end to the kinds of volunteer work.
You put in your time. All at once, or a little at a time until you meet your commitment.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Anyway, in PA at least, you can't get federal grants and loans for college without being registered for selective service.
You must have read about that...If you partook personally wouldn't that make you a socialist?
shamus
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Bringing the draft back is the stupidest thing in the world.
I disagree though some of what I read in here qualifies.
All the Best,
hap
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"civilian service "? what your really saying is create 'make work' jobs for the minorities.
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Originally posted by Maverick
then again I am very much in favor of the Heinlein paradigm of service to grant full citizenship and the right to vote.
It's always seemed strange to me that there's an open green card lottery, but no opportunity to get one through service.
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Originally posted by moot
It's always seemed strange to me that there's an open green card lottery, but no opportunity to get one through service.
That is odd, that's how my Father got citizenship, resigned a commission in the Canadian army to become a NCO in the US army during WWll.
shamus
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Not just military service they are talking about.
2 years military is one option, the other is civilian service.
So long as civilian service has a broad range, i don't have a problem with it, and am in favor of it.
Consider anything related to fire, rescue, medical, and law enforcement to be included. Consider workers in the education system. Those that keep utilities operating in emergencies and bad weather.
Coast Guard. Those that fight forest fires. Part time and volunteer firemen, paramedics, and so forth. WWII often exempted oil workers and farmers from service, as these were strategic needs.
Part-time national service could be volunteering to clean up trash, or be involved with building homes for homeless. No end to the kinds of volunteer work.
You put in your time. All at once, or a little at a time until you meet your commitment.
FYI the Coast Guard is a branch of the military....not civil service.
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Originally posted by Shamus
That is odd, that's how my Father got citizenship, resigned a commission in the Canadian army to become a NCO in the US army during WWll.
shamus
Nowadays, selling your bellybutton to a tour or three on some frontlines is just not good enough :p
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Originally posted by Hornet33
FYI the Coast Guard is a branch of the military....not civil service.
coast guard is in the dept of homeland security.
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Originally posted by john9001
coast guard is in the dept of homeland security.
I'm gona go out on a limb and say no, the Coast Guard falls under the Department of Defense.
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The bill is garbage. I don't believe service should be manditory, but I do see merits in requiring it for full citizenship (ala Heinlin's "Starship Troopers"). Military service shoud remain voluntary, and selective (i.e. with high standards of admission). Even if you don't tie the voting franchise to it (though at the very least I would make it a requirement to hold public office), there should be very significant benefits to volunteering, such as funding for higher education, access to low interest home loans, permanent tax credits, and perhaps even early access to apply for social security benefits. I believe it MUST be voluntary, or else it is no better than indentured servitude. I also believe that if you volunteered under such a system, you could not be turned down; i.e. the government would have to find you something you could do for your service commitment, regardless of your physical/mental abilities. A minimum of two years would be sufficient. Failure to fulfill your tour, start to finish with no break in service (short of some catastrophic health reason), would entail no punishment; however, it would permanently disqualify you from the benefits of service...period.
Bottom line is, people in this country (USA) do not in general appreciate the blessings of citizenship, or the sacrifice that created and sustained our liberty.
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In Starship Troopers, everyone who volunteered was able to do those things. Even the dumbest person in the world could earn citizenship if they volunteered and stayed in for the alotted time. They always found *something* for you to do.
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Originally posted by john9001
coast guard is in the dept of homeland security.
That is correct. In 1967, the CG moved to Department of Transportation. Then in 2003 it was transferred to the Department of Homeland Security. However, it's members fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), and during time of war can come directly under the control of the DoD.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Bottom line is, people in this country (USA) do not in general appreciate the blessings of citizenship, or the sacrifice that created and sustained our liberty.
I agree. I'm surprised so many are against a mandatory draft. I really don't get it.
Sacrificing a few years of one's life to serve in our Armed Forces sounds great to me.
Giving one's self to something greater and more important than one's self is praiseworthy.
All the Best,
hap
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Originally posted by Hornet33
FYI the Coast Guard is a branch of the military....not civil service.
Thought Coast Guard still served 2 masters, Department of Transportation and Defense Department, while also involved with Customs and Immigration, DEA, Homeland Security, ad infinitum.....
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Artist/Band: Ochs Phil
Lyrics for Song: Draft Dodger Rag
Lyrics for Album: There But for Fortune
Oh, I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and a-keepin' old Castro down
And when it came my time to serve I knew "better dead than red"
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:
CHORUS
Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, and my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
Yes, think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a-goin' to school
And I'm working in a DEE-fense plant
I've got a dislocated disc and a wracked up back
I'm allergic to flowers and bugs
And when the bombshell hits, I get epileptic fits
And I'm addicted to a thousand drugs
I got the weakness woes, I can't touch my toes
I can hardly reach my knees
And if the enemy came close to me
I'd probably start to sneeze
I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, and my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
Yes, think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a-goin' to school
And I'm working in a DEE-fense plant
Ooh, I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
Onething you gotta see
That someone's gotta go over there
And that someone isn't me
So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell!
Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
I'll be the first to go
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How about a tarriff or force the world bank IMF to fund Blackwater. They could become like WalMart, except for mercs. And without greeters at the door.
When the next hurricane comes through and displaces all those casino workers, Blackwater can just set up tents and an obstacle course. If you make it through the course in good time, you get shipped on a plane for basic training. Automatic $50k/yr. No health insurance, but they do provide a nice first aid kit. Then, into the streets of Baghdad or Tehran with you!
Solves the overpopulation problem, avoids the draft, allows shareholders to profit. It's all good! Maybe a reality tv show could get tacked on for recruitment purposes.
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Originally posted by Shamus
You must have read about that...If you partook personally wouldn't that make you a socialist?
shamus
It's socialism if I demand that other people pay for my education. Taking advantage of it just makes me smart...
Just kidding.
With my family's tax bracket status, the majority of my tuition is paid for by loans. I'm not going to complain if the government wants to give me grants to go to school. But then again, I'm not going to ask that they do or whine if they pull them.
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Well Rangel is trying to make a statement* more so than pass this bill.. in any event this bill is clearly unconstitutional..
Know your rights...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Now looking at the above, unless you have been duly convicted, or some form of voluntary contract has been formed, any type of conscription is illegal.. (note the terms... it says "shall exist" thats very clear.. and cannot be rebuttaled thru ambiguity (some may claim the scotus decision in the early 1900's, but when no basis is given with exception to opinion**, that decision could be fought to be revisited very easily today)
Now whether you agree with this or dont, its on the books ... infact we fought a civil war over this topic..
IMO if the clowns want to force conscription, then go about the proper way; amend the constitution, then make your bill...
Until that happens.. someone comes a barking draft.. dont get mad.. go on the record (certified mail) explaining your rights.. (not priviledge) if ******* pursues, sue... that simple..
PS: people will say well vietnam there was a draft etc.. korea, ww2 etc.. this was all before the internet and self education,(most people were poor and signed their name X, brave new world now..) most cases were fought on objector status as opposed to constitutional rights of non slavery.... aka 13th admendment. If this was revisted as it was in Arver v. United States, 245 U.S. 366 (1918) today... it would be clearly overturned..
* - Rangels trying to point out the uneven demographic of todays volunteer force, not force a draft...
** - heres the opinion for yourself..
"Finally, as we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement."
"Supreme and Noble duty statement" sounds a whole alot like opinion of the court and not the law.. (nowhere in the constituition does it claim noble duty from its citizens) the highest law of the land says no in the form of the 13th admendment.. this is bolstered by the 9th admendment which closes the door on opinion based power grabs like the Arver Vs United States. Do we follow the constitution or some man pulling the power grab over illiterates back in 1918 ... you decide...
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Interesting Doctor. I'll have to look that up later.