Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: tedrbr on January 31, 2007, 02:34:14 PM
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GERMAN 88mm GUN
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/8%2C8-cm-Flugabwehrkanone_37.8.8_cm_anti-aircraft_cannon_37.JPG/800px-8%2C8-cm-Flugabwehrkanone_37.8.8_cm_anti-aircraft_cannon_37.JPG)
Specifically, the Flug abwehr-Kanone, or FlaK, 36 mounted to a Sonderanhaenger 201 trailer towed by a heavy tractor --- usually the SdKfz 7 half-track built by Krauss-Maffei. 8.8 cm FlaK 36 Entered service 1936-37. The earlier FlaK 18 was fielded in 1928, and the 88mm shell goes back to 1916 as an anti-aircraft shell. Most FlaK 18's were retrofitted with the 201 trailer and other FlaK 36 features.
The redesigned trailer Sonderanhänger 201 enabling faster time to action from the move. Could engage ground targets from its travelling position. Weight 7 tonnes. Rate of fire 15 to 20 rounds per minute. Produced by Krupp.
The eighty-eight was used in two roles: as a mobile heavy anti-aircraft gun, and in a more static role for home defense. In this latter role the guns were arranged into large batteries, directed by a single controller, and were moved only rarely.
Both the Flak 18 and Flak 36 had a high angle range of 35,100 ft.and a horizontal range of 16,200 yards. They could fire high explosive (HE), armour piercing (AP) or smoke shells. The weight of the projectile was 20 lbs. (HE) or 21 lbs. (AP and smoke). Muzzle velocity was 2690 ft. per second with HE and 2620 ft.with AP.
With APCBC, it could penetrate 130 mm of armour at 1500 yards.
Rate of fire 15 to 20 rounds per minute.
The crew was 11 men, consisting of layer, trainer, breechworker, fuse setter, and five ammunition supply numbers, plus the detachment commander and the tractor driver. When firing against ground targets two ammunition numbers became the range and deflection setters respectively, and the fuse setter became an ammunition number. The senior ammunition number was in charge of ammunition supply and was the detachment second-in-command.
There were tree methods of fire control, by radar or predictor though a data transmission system for AA fire, direct laying through the sights for the anti-tank role, and indirect fire in conjunction with a range-finder.
8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56.
Overall Lenght including muzzle brake:
17 ft. 15½ in.
APCBC Shell: 21 lb MV 2600 fps.
AP40 Shot: 16 lb MV 3070 fps.
HE Shell: 20 lb MV 2690 fps.
Combat History
Flak 36s made their debut in the notorious anti-tank role at Halfaya during the Battle of Sollum, June 1941. Firing from concealed positions at short range, they destroyed 123 out of 238 attacking British tank. The Germans claimed on British tank for every 20 "88" rounds fired at Halfaya.
Envisoned in-game:
Artillery has historically been known as the "King of the Battlefield" yet remains unrepresented in AHII. GV's in-game have up till now only had the Tiger tank with which to spend perk points, and some fighter pilots complain about their inability to detect and intercept high level bombers attacking their field, or heavy bombers attacking at tree top level.
The 88mm had a devastating impact on the battlefield, and should carry with it a high perk cost, so as to not see an overuse of it in the arena. Conversely, the system would be defensively weak as compared to tanks and armored vehicles in game due to exposed crew.
Limitations:
It would not very maneuverable or fast since the trailer and track combination are not speedy over open ground. The tractor/trailer arrangement with exposed troops manning it would be very vulnerable to incoming fire of any kind, slow traverse would not be very effective at close-in targets. High perk cost. Since code does not incorporate a tractor-trailer pivot point, the visual movement of the system will suffer (more resembling a long fire truck probably).... as would maneuverability in tight areas and over hills.
Advantages:
Effective in defense to "snipe" at long range, bombard towns in offense, and force buffs to higher altitudes. Gives the GVr's another vehicle to spend GV perks on, forces bombers off the deck. Way to defend spawn points.
The AA FlaK's used central firing control to dictate fuse settings on shells based on altitude and speed. The command would come down, and the shells would be set before loading and firing. In-game we have single players controlling these systems, and the code already exists for the 5-inch guns and puffy ack guns, so it would make more sense to use existing code to develop the 88mm cannon where possible.
Pic of FlaK-18 firing.
(http://wnet.suomi.net/kotisivu/harri.kaarre/images/88mm03.JPG)
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Thinking the 88 would be a whole lot less effective without the allied
VT fuzes that puffy ack currently simulates. Also the standard 88 mount
would be a ground attacker's wet dream...not much cover there.
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Yeah, the way the FlaK actually fused their shells for AA fire would be really tough to model well in AHII..... central fire control getting altitude and speed and sending to the guns. They'd set the timer on the fuse, load, fire. I think the current 5 inch gun or puffy ack code would work well enough for these purposes in the game, without having to model everything from scratch.
And no, no real cover. Very vulnerable to close-in attack and strafing runs.
It's what it is. Long range artillery, manned puffy ack, and a means to terrorize GV's (or even off-shore CV's) at long range. Powerful offense, weak defense. Serves multiple roles.
Imagine the panic among GVr's when an 88mm opens up on them, or a bomber crew low over a base when 2 or 3 come out of the hangar. Even vulchers will have to worry more when VH comes back up on a capped base.
Probably should be limited in-game to firing only while stopped too, not while moving.
And it should cost perks to prevent overuse.
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Yes yes yes yes yes
88!!!!
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The 88 has probably been the second most ask GV in AH besides the Sherman. I would like to see the 88 towed by a german halftrack. This would just be so cool.
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If I had the power, I would choose to code the 88 into the game instead of the sherman, just to hear the whines and cries on the BB :D
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I still want the panther!
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Agree, 88 & half track to pull it would be ideal.
Imagine what 3 of those would do to a town from a couple of miles out. :)
You'd need a couple of panzers, & ostwinds for local GV & Aircraft cover.
Once the town is mostly down the panzers could roll in to call targets for you.
Let you know of any enemy GV's inbound, etc.
YES, come on HT BRING IT!
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Due to limited mobility and the fact that just about anything can oneshot these, Why perk them? Was it also taken into account that these required an addition hauler for the ammo? Otherwise with stock strapped ammo on the actual gun you have maybe 20-25 shots in the ammo crate. So m3 resupply would be vital.
90prf
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Will one reason to perk it is because it has an 88mm like the tiger. Its gun would be able to take out any tank in the game with 1 shot and could probably take out a tiger with one or two shots. Imagine this, theres a mission of 20 Panzers 10 tigers 10M3s and 5T34s. They all start invadeding this base and the next thing you know when you get about a mile to base, you see 20 88mm cannons being deployed at the base for defense. The next thing you know, half your panzers are down, all but 2 tigers killed or disabled, the T34 guys are hiding saying "Hell no" and the M3 are running out in the open trying to get supplies to some disabled tigers, but then they get shot. What a complete failure to a mission, because the 88mm wasn't perked and like 20 people took the 88mm gun for base defense. If you perk it maybe half the tiger then that would decrease the usage. Yes it may be week because the gun crews are exposed, but it has a deadly gun like the tiger and go up against any tank or plane in the game.
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its not like a few he rounds into the base wouldnt take care of that. Low ammo load, slow mobile, long targeting, and no ammo would make this a juicy target. A t34 could close range on this to get a solution all too quick.
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A manned 88 mm or 5" ground gun does not need the proxy fusing when firing AA it just needs a timer function for fuse setting.
When in the gun what ever control is set to normally set the engine rpm on an AC can be used to set the time delay on the fuse. The readout could be in seconds or the read out could convert the fuse delay time to an equivilent range to detonation.
I would love to see a truck (studebaker) that could tow a load of stuff (88mm, 5", rocket launcher) and have generous ammo capacity.
Whilst on the move the truck should be very vulnerable IMO.
However once the gun is deployed it should be camoflaged and without icon.
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Originally posted by VooWho
They all start invadeding this base and the next thing you know when you get about a mile to base, you see 20 88mm cannons being deployed at the base for defense.
If the guns had to be towed to a location then deployed (even on an airfield) and were vulnerable during deployment then their use as a rush defence would be limited.............indeed the incoming vehicles would be picking them off.
If they were dug in and waiting then it could be come interesting but I have never seen 20 players in GV's dug in and waiting anywhere.....plus a few 5"' guns over the hill and firing in Land mode with the aid of a spotter should make life interesting for stuff thats "dug in".
Indeed 5" artilery firing in land mode would force the defence to come out and find it............
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Then on the flipside multi 88's firing on a cv group would make short work of escorts. My grandfather told me most tigers were pretty much dug in and use as defense so the whole camo and no icon thing shouldnt apply here.
I do have a idea that how you sit on rearm pad for 30 seconds, say if you stay immobile for 3-5min you can get a prepped position. History tells us that as soon as uncamoed 88's were located rangers were deployed to disable them because of the potential they had once dug in which almost required carpet bombing at that point.
Im still a AH newb and I see ALOT of stuff on wishlist, how often are these seen reality? And when and what were they? Also do we have a list of stuff thats in the works?
90prf
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Originally posted by bzek74
Due to limited mobility and the fact that just about anything can oneshot these, Why perk them? Was it also taken into account that these required an addition hauler for the ammo? Otherwise with stock strapped ammo on the actual gun you have maybe 20-25 shots in the ammo crate. So m3 resupply would be vital.
90prf
I suggested the perk cost to prevent overuse or abuse in tank town and EW arena.
Yes, it would be slow and defensively weak, but with the range these things had over everything else? Imagine the gun and halftrack parked in a barn on a hill overlooking an enemy base from 5-10 klicks out? Or lying in ambush in a tree line to advancing GV's. The reach of the 88mm with the FlaK's was much further than those on the tanks.... longer barrels, probably much higher muzzle velocities.
Offer it, but limit it.... if it proves to be less effective or a hangar queen, drop the perk cost. Easier to drop a perk afterward, than institute the cost to the howls and whines on the boards after the fact.
Part of the reason I suggest the FlaK-36, is I'm also "crusading" for more things for buff drivers to spend their perks on; from adding the A-26b and C Invaders to allowing the purchase of up to an additional 3 drones for a formation.
Shake things up a bit in the arenas, and give both the GVr's and Buff drivers something more to spend their perks on. Tiger is pretty strong now.... King Tiger would be ludicrous. Artillery and land-based manned puffy ack are not represented yet. Stalin Organ would be cool too, but that would be a one-shot deal.
Some of the sources I've seen note that the FlaK could be fired from the trailer while still in travel mode (not moving, but not deployed). Probably a lot less accurate that way, and the new trailer I listed made deployment rather quick compared to most arty pieces.
As to camouflaged and no-icon, I didn't think the existing game code could handle that. No opinion on it either way.
I know getting anything from the wish list is a long shot, additions have been very few and far between, so I try to ask for things that might be reasonably done with the tools at hand, or get the most out of it: hence, asking for both B and C models of Invader (1 plane, 2 roles, both a perk sink), and 88mm that can be used for multiple purposes.
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Originally posted by Tilt
A manned 88 mm or 5" ground gun does not need the proxy fusing when firing AA it just needs a timer function for fuse setting.
When in the gun what ever control is set to normally set the engine rpm on an AC can be used to set the time delay on the fuse. The readout could be in seconds or the read out could convert the fuse delay time to an equivalent range to detonation.
I figured the code was already there for auto puffy ack or 5" AA fire, and was following the KISS principle --- new additions being few and far between these days. Figure use what is already coded when possible.
I can see where you are going with that..... and that would work great, given a means to determine altitude other than fire and wait for puff. In AA role, the 88mm was commanded by central fire directors..... they guys with funky looking binos set a meter apart to determine range and altitude. Translating that to a aiming scope somehow. Or maybe it is left at guesstimating.
Also, limiting a GV in the form of an 88 FlaK-36 to fire when sitting still only, and not moving. And cammo deployment. Can't see a lengthy deployment time though, not in a game with 30 sec rearm pads and other shortcuts. Just bringing the FlaK vehicle to a full stop would work for me.
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Originally posted by bzek74
Im still a AH newb and I see ALOT of stuff on wishlist, how often are these seen reality? And when and what were they? Also do we have a list of stuff thats in the works?
90prf
Well AH1 at the start had way less rides (1/2 ?) so some of the wishes have seen reality....the 110G2 has been a shock to me when I first looked at the ordonnance, 2nd shock was to kill a town with it, a single 110G2 could kill a town alone no wonder they got em bigger in AH2 :P
More recently many people were asking for a clipped wing spitfire, including me. I regret it now :cry they still remodeled all the spits so I kill 16's with a good old 9 :t
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Heh, heh.
The 88 rules.
Mount it on a Ju 87.
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Thats a big gun. Would rule at range for sure vs tanks.
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Originally posted by VON BRAUN
Heh, heh.
The 88 rules.
Mount it on a Ju 87.
I'm kinda arguing for a combination of A26B and A26C Invader in another thread. The B model had an option for a 75mm cannon with 20 rounds among it's load outs, and I know a lot of bomber and attack pilots have been asking for a potato gun..... so.......
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The 88 has probably been the second most ask GV in AH besides the Sherman. I would like to see the 88 towed by a german halftrack. This would just be so cool.
German halftrack would not be powerful enuff to tow 88 flack...you need a prime mover like a Sdk-7 or a Sdk-11
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Originally posted by Tilt
However once the gun is deployed it should be camoflaged and without icon.
Thought about this some more... how would that be modeled? Don't think it would work in this game. Simply put, you are sitting at the perspective of the driver's seat of the tow vehicle or the gunner seat of the 88mm, and all you can see is the camo cover over you.
And if the camo cover is handled like other objects, you trying to fire past it will detonate the shell (some ways around that, but none really elegant solutions.
Even if you gave this GV and external view, like manned ack, and TG mounted guns, I'm not sure that a camo cover won't get in the way of using the sight to use direct fire, or in AA role. Indirect fire would work using clipboard map I would guess in any case (again, like 5" gun).
With or without an icon another matter. Comes down to the code that needs to be used, I suppose. There are terrain in AH II maps that map your icon hard to pick up as is from the air. In any case, that big fireball when you fire will give your position away for miles around anyways, so not so much of a factor.
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The Flak36 is a suburb choice IMO, both for AA and AT roles.
I would also suggest adding these to help protect the flak batteries from strafing A/C and Jabo's.
(http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/anowe/wirbelwind_1.jpg)
(http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/unx/unx80027.jpg)
(http://www.smhq.org/history/sdkfz-flak.jpg)
(http://ee.heavengames.com/albums/Renders/SDKFZ_7.jpg)
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Id rather have the flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz :)
(http://www.geocities.com/adc3003/kugelblitz/kugel087.jpg)
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Thought about this some more... how would that be modeled? Don't think it would work in this game.
Lets assume that you are driving your truck and wish to deploy your 88mm towed gun.
Quite simply you stop the truck and hit the number 2 (move me to gunner position 2). If your not stopped nothing will happen.
Then a little fixed AI routine takes over that sticks you by the gun as it is unhitched from the truck and the truck driven to one side, the gun turned round and some cammo netting erected over both. How much AI and how much graphics is down to how "pretty" HTC would like to make this.
This would take 30 secs
The gun will end up pointing in the same direction as the truck originally was with some degree of lateral movement allowed by the netting and degree of dig in.
The netting object would be "soft" ie stuff goes through it. However the earth work will be hard. The camo object wil be visually solid however such that folk cannot see through it. The camo will take on the same ground aspect as the "tile" the vehicle and artilary are currently on.
By hitting 1 (return to driver) the whole process is reversed again taking 30 secs.
If the truck has been destroyed then pressing 1 achieves nothing and you are stuck there until you return to tower.
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Again, in hopes of actually getting additions like this, and the A-26 in another thread, I try to follow the KISS principle: "Keep It Simple Stoopid".
While what you describe would be a great way of doing it, having one vehicle break down into two separate, destroyable vehicles is probably more complication than would be acceptable for an addition to the existing game, the way it is modeled now. The separation and deployment I can actually see a graphic for that (tow vehicle moves off at slight angle, trailer outriggers deploy, cammo net and sandbags appear), but the two separately destroyable objects is where I really see the problem..... might be simpler to keep it all one object in practice, even if visually separated.
I would not even expect much articulation, if any, between the tow vehicle and the trailer, in turning and moving, as well as they being permanently hitched together for simplicity.
Same reason I figured existing puffy ack or 5" gun code could be used to create a FlaK36 addition, rather than trying to model closer to the timed fuse they actually used. End effect is about the same.
And I would find that all acceptable to get the FlaK36 in a multi role GV for manned puffy ack, bombardment artillery, and long range direct fire weapon. Eye candy is great and all, but for an online game like this, I'll accept a few shortcuts for functionality, or to even just get the addition.
Camo. I could go either way on this one. Stop the Flak36 and deploy (O - like Open Doors) .... movement disables firing? (but what if graphics a little twitchy for the user?)..... camo or no camo. Either is a darker mass on the terrain with occasional fireball above it as it fires.
More eye candy is always preferable, but just getting the addition to the game at all is the hard part.
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MOIL and Nilsen.
I can appreciate both of those submissions, but since we already have manned field ack, Osties, and M-16 quad .50's (not the same as those two vehicles, I know) ..... AND since additions to the game are so few and far between.... I try to find submissions that can have multiple roles to please multiple people. Also areas that have not been addressed yet. If we were likely to see more GV's added, those would both be great choices..... but would we really want the LTARs to have access to those?
:confused:
FlaK 36:
* manned puffy ack to defend fields and bases, and possibly force buffs higher;
* give GVr's another toy, a long range direct fire weapon;
* add artillery to the game finally.
Similar to my A-26 Invader thread
* Another perk worthy bomber for buff drivers who don't care for Arado.
* Attack bomber version better than any other.
* B-version with 75mm nose cannon option for those wanting a plane mounted spud gun.
* C-version a perked penetration bombers better than Ki-67, B-26, and B-25
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YES!!!!!!
I would love for this to be implemented into the game!
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Yes, I am very good in GV fights...but not long range shots...like at a town..artillery will be very nice to see in the game...I assume it will be a risk to take it out because of lack of armor it had...but it could do some damage.
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These are all great ideas IMO:aok