Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Technical Support => Topic started by: Simaril on February 02, 2007, 12:31:42 PM
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Skuzzy:
We've emailed off and on about this problem for a very long time, and I've explored a wide variety of possible causes for my limited "TA/Orange vox deafness" over those months. The best we've been able to say is that the problem doesn't come from the AH server, and it isn't dependent on the individual account or computer; and that it resolves when I use a different ISP.
It's now apparent that the problem IS NOT limited to my ISP alone, since Airspro has the EXACT same problem, affecting ONLY vox reception ONLY in those two arenas.
We are up against a wall, though. It seems that somewhere along the line, either the transmissions themselves are being blocked, or some identifying tag is being stripped off from the vox transmissions. Whatever actually is causing the problem, it can't be addressed without some guidance from the people at HTC who know exactly what your proprietary systems do in order to link the FE data to the server.
And that's the core of the problem. I can't even hint at what area the ISP should look, without having some idea of what to look for. And on your side, if there are specific proprietary methods you guys use, I can understand why you'd be tight lipped about them.
It's absolutely clear that this is a non-random, explainable problem. For the people it affects: It ALWAYS happens in those arenas. It's LIMITED to only received vox, and nothing else; and it NEVER happens in any other setting. Logically, the answer must be in something common to TA and Orange's vox transmissions to the affected users, and in the details of those users' ISP technology.
As a non-techie, I can't go any farther. So what can we do? The deafness makes it hard for me to give or get training, since I can't just drop in to the TA and be effective. I just want to be able to hear local and ESPECIALLY squad vox in those arenas. By now my squaddies know about the problem, but at first some guys thought I had issues of another sort because I would "ignore" their attempts to talk to me. Who knows how many times that's happened with non-squaddies...
And who knows how many others have the problem and haven't said anything in here. Please help us out!
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I would bet there is more than just me and you having this problem .
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Is this thing on?
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Well, I'm not experiencing this problem, but i remember suggesting moving your PC to another ISP's connection in order to test the following:
That different arenas use different TCP/IP ports for VOX, and that your ISP is blocking/malforming whatever is coming in the specific port that is used for VOX for that one (or two) arena(s).
I never heard the results of the test, or an admission that different ports are being used. I think this is interesting.
Now then.
The next thing I would do is download and install TDIMon, a freeware app from someone now employed at Microsoft. Download it at: http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/TdiMon.html
Run it, and then run AH, and try to use VOX. Then alt-tab to see the TDIMon window. It should show all TCP/IP comminications, including ports, IP addresses, and the processs communicating on it. Save the output to a file.
Then move your PC to another ISP again and repeat this test. Save the results to a file.
If there are any new lines on the second test, then THAT's the VOX port.
Otherwise, you could also just list all the ports that are coming from the same IP address (or range) and report that to the ISP, since at least one of those is VOX.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that Skuzzy hasn't just said what the ports are to make your life easier - this sort of information is hardly a trade secret...
Anyway, I hope this helps. Let us know what happens.
-Warr
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I'm seriously doubting that its a port issue.
First, from what I understand, the same ports are used for incoming and outgoing vox -- so if it were a port porblem, both kinds of vox should be abnormal, but they NEVER are. Second, Skuzzy has elsewhere said that vox ports are randomly assigned at logon, in a range between 2000-6000 -- which would make my symptomns incompatable with a blocked port problem conceptually, since these probelms are ALWAYS in the same arenas, and NEVER anyrhing but received vox.
Also, using a command line DOS-like box command, my ISP tech people could show what ports were active. And --
1. Ports were registering as active on my computer, regardless of what arena I was in.
2. There were the same number of ports active in every arena (so none were invisible and blocked.)
3. On at least one occasion, the exact same port ended up being used by a blocked arena (the TA), and then was again selected as the active port in a normally functioning one when I logged in subsequently. In other words, the exact same port functioned fine in LW Blue but was not delivering vox in the TA.
It has to be something other than a port problem, it seems to me...
Now, I'm no tech wizard. Just doesn't seem logoically possible with the data available.
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The TA's voice server is located on port 4000.
Start Aces High II, then connect to the TA.
Minimize Aces High II
Open a command box (Start->Run->Command)
Type "netstat -an"
Look in the left column for "UDP". The see if there is a corresponding line with 0.0.0.0:4000 in it. That means you have a connection to the voice server. The IP address is null, due to it being UDP, which is stateless.
If that line is missing, then, you are not connecting to the voice server, for whatever reason.
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Thanks Skuzzy! Will try as soon as I can tonite.
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I did that , it shows that I am connected . I got a screenshot when I did it . Here it is .
I tryed my name in V channel also , nope doesn't work in Training today either , then alt tabed to do the command .
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1007_1170713186_vox.jpg)
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You have a local UDP connection to port 4008. What is that?
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Donno for sure . I "did" have MSN messenger on , I got another pic with it shut off . My avast! is on in both pics .
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1007_1170714215_vox2.jpg)
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I got yet another pic with avast! shut off too . Nothing running on this pic but AH2 in the Training MA .
I did check vox again in Training before I alt tabed and with my name in the V box it didn't work .
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1007_1170714652_vox3.jpg)
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Do me a favor and close down anything that may be running. You have some rather bizarre listeners running on TCP ports and you have way too many local and stateless UDP connections.
My computer's netstat has 10 TCP entries, and 7 UDP entries.
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I shut off everything I could , had 20 processes left running when I took this last screen shot .
I am on wireless two way to a grain leg up town , then wire to my ISP . I have had it for 2 years now , works pretty good most all times .
As you can well guess this is getting a bit over my head now now .
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1007_1170715760_vox4.jpg)
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OK, ran the test...I also am showing a null connection to 4000.
My list has almost 40 entries -- I'm too embarrassed to post it, and my usual pic hosting site has been infested with a trojan. I'll try to clean things up, but what is the next step in figuring out the problem? It looks like we both have connections to the voice server (which logically had to be true anyway since OUR outgoing vox could be heard by others)...
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Just for giggles, have either of you toggled the "Use Wave In" option of the game for voice?
I am trying to figure out how in the world you guys are getting so many open connections on your computers. Particularly the UDP stuff. Because UDP is stateless, any application setting on a port can eat the UDP on an inbound port.
For everyone's edification, here is my netstat. This is Windows XP Pro, at the desktop, with file and printer sharing enabled. I removed the name of my home computer for my own protection. :)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/skuzzy/mynetstat.gif)
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Skuzzy:
Again at work, but I don't think I have that checked.
I guess I'm wondering if this is the right tree to bark up. I've documented that the problem is present on 3-4 computers, with 3 different accounts (mine, my son's old account, and my son's current account).* I've also demonstrted that the problem is always present when connecting through my home ISP, and never when connecting with the same computer with a different ISP at work. Meanwhile, spro has found no problems with vox when he uses dialup from the same computer that has vox problems when on high speed connection.
With all that, it just seems tough to argue that the problem is with a computer setting. It's present on too many machines, that have only the ISP in common -- and its absent with the same machines when a different connect is used.
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well, in accordance to what u saying sim, I want to bet that your DSL/Cable modem also has a firewall built into it and might be blocking that port or ports that are required. I know my DSL modem has a firewall in it along with my router. the Modem I have the firewall disabled but not in my router. In the router I just have the ports opened up for AH.
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But Dogg, if the ports were being blocked, wouldn't --
1. The connection be prevented on my computer -- so port 4000 wouldnt show up? But, it clearly does! And,
2. Wouldnt it affect ALL vox equally -- send and receive are on the same port, but the problem only affects receive; and wouldn't all arenas be affected, since skuzzy says that the vox server is 4000?
Again, i'm not a tech guy but I've having some trouble with the logic. The pieces don't seem to fit for this being a port problem , no matter that ports are a common source of difficulty.
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Actually Sim, VOX runs on a different port for each arena. My bad for that one. The voice port for each arena is fixed. Unlike the game ports which can be very random.
Also, port 4000 (the TA voice port) on your computer is being opened by the client (the game). I just wanted to be sure it was being opened. It is not considered a hard error if voice cannot run on the client.
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Mini-hi-low jack.
When I do the netstat -an it just flashes the result screen. What can I do to keep this up for saving purposes?
This a sign something else is going on or just a setup thing on my end?
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Skuzzy, just an FYI everyone I know (whole squad, and others from the dueling ladder) always lose UDP the second we enter the DA, no matter who it is, or when we go in.
that has started in the past few weeks, but it is a recent occurrence for literally everyone I know.
VOX also doesn't work, but I'd guess it has something to do with losing UDP the second we enter.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Actually Sim, VOX runs on a different port for each arena. My bad for that one. The voice port for each arena is fixed. Unlike the game ports which can be very random.
I KNEW IT!!! I guessed this was the case at least a month ago. Thanks for the info Skuzzy.
*THIS* is why some arena's VOX is fine and other's aren't for you on these ISP's, if you ask me.
So here's where I would go.
Ask Skuzzy to list what the different VOX ports are for the different arenas.
Then go to the ISP and say "hey, what are you doing with Port 4000 that is different than port 4001 (or whatever ports Skuzzy says are used where VOX works)."
Then let the ISP figure it out.
I really think the ISP is filtering port 4000 in some way that it isn't for other ports, and this filtering is screwing up the VOX routines.
-Llama
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The ports are not cast in stone llama. We just got through moving arenas around to make them more efficient. The ports changed.
They can change when we change the size of an arena, or if we add an arena.
The thing is, the ports we use are all open for public use. That said, if another application happens to use a port we are using, or vice-versa, things will break.
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I don't think it's a port issue on the firewall, unless the firewall is not stateful. My home firewall runs a version of BSD, with no special ports opened for AH2. I haven't had any issues with VOX or anything else in the game.
One thing that you may want to try is a traceroute to the arena servers using UDP. Windows tracert uses ICMP, but you need to use UDP and port 4000. I'm not having any luck finding a Windows traceroute program that both uses UDP and allows you to pick the destination port. In Linux, the command 'traceroute -p 4000 hostname' will do what you want. If you have a Linux test drive CD, like for Ubuntu, it will be able to do it. You could also download an ISO and burn a boot CD.
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Originally posted by fuzeman
When I do the netstat -an it just flashes the result screen. What can I do to keep this up for saving purposes?
This a sign something else is going on or just a setup thing on my end?
It sounds like you are running netstat from the Start/Run menu. Type 'cmd' in the Run field first, then type the netstat command in the command window that should be running.
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Ok Skuzzy here u go , pic with "wave in" unchecked . All the other pics had it checked off .
And no vox in Training again with "wave in" unchecked just now .
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1007_1170794561_vox5.jpg)
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Yep vox works for me in Training useing my backup dialup from same isp , just checked it .
Weird .
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My ISP said they do not block ANY ports between 2000 and 6000. Period.
And I just want to be clear on this -- I have had this problem for literally 3 years. In that time, according to skuzzy's post, the ports used by the TA have changed repeatedly -- but even with those changes, the problem ALWAYS affected the TA and nothing else. (At least until orange came about.)
Next, I have had this problem on four different computers over this time frame. They do not have much in common at all, except that they connect to the internet through the same ISP.
Now, the same computer that cannot HEAR vox (sends just fine, remember) in the TA can hear absolutely fine with a different ISP. Makes software port conflicts very hard to accept as the problem== SAME computer, after all. And, from what I understand, both incoming and outgoing Vox uses the same port.
If the same port is used for both, how could a problem with only one be caused by a blocked port????
I have poiinted this out repeatedly, and it seems to me that this combination of facts makes the port VERY unlikely (almost logically impossible) to be the source of the problem. I don't understand why folks can't either tell me why this logic is flawed, or talk about something other than ports!!!!
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It seems to me -- as I've suggested several times -- that the problem seems logically most likely to come from removal of a tag, or blockage of a things carrying the tag, that tell AH "this is TA received vox." I can't see how anything else could do this in this particular way...but again, I'm not a tech guy. I'm stuck using general logic, and unfortunately I can't see how these other suggestions could result in what we see.
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I would have to go back to see whane the TA was last changed. There is a good chance it has been there for 3 years, but I cannot confirm that until tomorrow.
The DA may be the other arena which has not been moved for a very long time. All the other arenas have been moved around recently. for sure.
And if you can go to a different ISP with the same computer and it works, then that pretty much isolates the problem to be in your ISP's network, or in your local arena network router. I am assuming you did not use the same router to connect to another ISP.
I beleive your ISP is not intentionally blocking that port. Howeer, they could be running some type of monitoring software which could be the problem. Is your Internet connection PPPoE based?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I would have to go back to see whane the TA was last changed. There is a good chance it has been there for 3 years, but I cannot confirm that until tomorrow.
The DA may be the other arena which has not been moved for a very long time. All the other arenas have been moved around recently. for sure.
And if you can go to a different ISP with the same computer and it works, then that pretty much isolates the problem to be in your ISP's network, or in your local arena network router. I am assuming you did not use the same router to connect to another ISP.
I beleive your ISP is not intentionally blocking that port. Howeer, they could be running some type of monitoring software which could be the problem. Is your Internet connection PPPoE based?
Skuzzy, would the ISP doing something really make a difference in like 10 people form various parts of the country / ISP's?
not trying to be rude, or callous, but everyone on the dueling ladder I have met with and everyone in the "Army of Muppets" lose UDP within seconds of entering the DA, and also not have VOX working from the get go.
I (and most of the others I have spent time with there) have not gone to the TA, soI don;t know if there is a difference, but I can assure you this happens every single time we go to the DA.
we have resorted to using Yahoo messenger chat to do VOX while in there, because none of us can get anything to work.
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I never have a problem with any of the arenas. Let me state this very clearly.
If there is a problem with the voice server code, and there is always a chance of that, it will effect everyone in the same exact manner. When inconsistent results are happening with software, it is usually caused by other issues.
I am still concerned about the few netstat's I have seen posted. They have an unusual amount of network connections to ports which are not standard connections for Windows. Do you guys have any idea as to why your computers have so many open network connections? I would be very concerned about that.
The problem with most people and VOX is eas8ily traceable to the use of router's which cannot support UDP over NAT. Most consumer grade routers do not support UDP over NAT properly, if at all.
If you are liosing UDP, then VOX cannot work. The loss of UDP is simply due to packet loss on the connection. Wireless connections are prone to this failure. Improperly configured LAN's can cause packet loss. Consumer routers which have not been power cycled for long periods of time will have problems.
I can go on and on about what can cause UDP protocol problems. Sim has already figured out that the problem he is having is ISP related. Not a lot we can do about that and his ISP has absolutely no incentive to figure out what the problem is. And I can only guess as to what the problem is.
I am really not sure what you guys think or want us to do about this. And I guess that is what I am trying to figure out,
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Skuzzy, I ran a netstat on a freshly reinstalled computer but have few programs other then windows installed.
Nero
MSN messenger
Trilian
XP Smoker
And all the window updates minus IE 7
When I ran netstat I got the same results as Airspro.
Now when I shut down alot of the non essential services and programs like Nero, MSN, Trilian, I then get same results as U as far as netstats. I have no problem with vox or lost of UDP though in any situation.
I have Verizon DSL 3 meg DL and I am using a linksys wrtgs ( believe this the router model number) wireless router but I am wired and my son's computer is wirelss to the network. Again we both have no problem. I was just curious about the netstat on my machine. It could be his router like u said not fully supporting UDP in both directions. When he connects through dialup he essentially is bypassing the router.
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I guess all I'm looking for is some hint to give to the ISP. "IT doesn't work" doesnt help them any more than it helps you... and if they have no idea where to look for a problem that could be almost anywhere, they aren't likely to try hard at all.
On the other hand, the 2nd and third tier tech guys seemed capable, interested, and motivated to try to help. (Kinda refreshing for a corporate tech support system!) One guy got the link to sign up for a 2 week and try to reproduce the problem at home!
So what can I tell them to look for? That's what I need to take it to the next level. What are the ports for Orange, and the time frame for TA at 4000?
AND: How is received vox different from sent vox? (That seems to me to be the most important question of all -- if sent vox gets through, and received does not, then the problem is most likely to be solved looking at what's different between them, right?)
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BTW -- if HTC decides that the information needed to solve this problem moves into the "proprietary information, not disclosable" region -- I'm absolutely fine with that, and understand completely.
After all, at the end of the day, the only ones who've come forward about this problem are Spro and me. And -- as they say in the movies --
...the problems of two little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world...
:lol :lol
and if the quote applies, I am DEFINITELY "Rick", not Elsa!
I would appreciate anything you can do to help narrow the focus (and improve the success rate) of my tech conversations with the ISP. And if we run up against the proprietary wall, just say so -- so we know where things stand, and we can stop bothering you about it!
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I would think they all would work , or none would if the problem is on my end .
I will when I have the time check with my isp and show them your netstat Skuzzy , and ask them why mine is so differant .
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Originally posted by Simaril
...snip...
I would appreciate anything you can do to help narrow the focus (and improve the success rate) of my tech conversations with the ISP. And if we run up against the proprietary wall, just say so -- so we know where things stand, and we can stop bothering you about it!
Skuzzy --
You've posted the Port number for the TA. Could you also release the port number for Orange Vox?
Also -- ran into a third person with the problem, a relative newb with ranger or soemthing in his handle. (Sry, I'm awful with names on the first pass). If/when I track this down with the ISP I'll be sure to post so all affected can get it worked out with their own ISP.
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How about HTC changing the port number of the LWO Ma vox port number so that both LW MA would work for me ?
I really don't fly at all in the other areas . Could that be done ?
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Originally posted by Simaril
Skuzzy --
You've posted the Port number for the TA. Could you also release the port number for Orange Vox?
Also -- ran into a third person with the problem, a relative newb with ranger or soemthing in his handle. (Sry, I'm awful with names on the first pass). If/when I track this down with the ISP I'll be sure to post so all affected can get it worked out with their own ISP.
Would appreciate knowing both the port for TA and for LW Orange, so I can call the ISP and have the best chance for solution.
Thanks Skuzzy
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I just wrote my ISPMangement this trouble ticket >
"I am on your wireless plan . I am having problem getting uploaded data and downloaded data on port 4000 for about 2 weeks now . In other words the problem showed up about 2 weeks ago . I can't get vox in the game I play "Ace's High" to work in two of their rooms . It does work on the "backup" dialup you have . I have asked their "IT" guy to help and we have a fairly good thread with alot of info on it , here
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198179
I am airspro in the thread and Skuzzy is Ace's High IT guy .
I am gonna write one more post on this saying I have contacted you , if you would please post in the thread and tell Skuzzy that you are trying to work out the problem .
ATM I am at a loss what to do next as it seems somewere from me to Ace's High the wireless broadband is blocking port 4000 :( "
I am hopeing that they can help get this fixed . They have been pretty good at everything I have asked so far :)
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I just got home and read my email >
I have made an exception for your modem so that this port should now be accessible. Please let me know if you have any further issues.
That was from my isp , went and check both the LWO and Training now both work again .
Thanks "Jimmy" from ISP Mangement and Skuzzy
Donno how it got shut off but it's working fine now .
A big thanks to Skuzzy for putting up with me .
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Was thinking 'bout this on the way to work - possible the Vox channel got squelched? Easy enough to check, try /.unsquelch all.
Regards,
Optiker
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I lost vox during a flight Sunday night. Lastnight I still had the same problem, so I turned of my computer and router, after that, vox worked fine.
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After some hemming and hawing, my ISP also unblocked port 4000 -- which the tier 2 techs didnt realize was blocked at all.
My vox reception is now fine.
RASH:
While vox loss often requires a relog, sometimes you can correct the problem by opening a text window and typing .resetv.
Many guys swear it never does anything, but I've had some success in getting vox function back.