Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on February 02, 2007, 04:30:54 PM
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I was really expecting to read about some outrageous demands the union wanted, since the company is doing well. But it boils down to this...
The company said its proposal included annual wage increases of 4 percent over three years. But part of the increase depended on the union agreeing to contribute toward health insurance coverage. Unionized employees currently pay no premium. It also would have doubled the company's 401(k) retirement plan contributions.
Oh. my. God. What a cruel company, how dare an employee have to...eek..contribute...to their health care!
Full article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_bi_ge/harley_davidson_strike)
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Good, maybe it'll drive the value of my 84 FLHTC through the roof.
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unions are a pariah, they need to go.
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I heard they were being outsourced to China.........
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I heard China was being outsourced to India
RTR
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You guys can beech all you like but I'll (again) point out the obvious.
1. Before there were Unions, there was incredibly BAD management. Bad management gave rise to Unions, bad management will eventually swing the pendulum back towards more unionization.
The pendulum is always moving between Unions and Management. Right now, it's swinging towards management. Eventually, Management will go so far out into left field that they themselves will force the pendulum to swing back. CEO salaries 500 times the lowest paid worker stuff will help reverse it.
2. It was the Unions that created the middle class in this country. Right now, the middle class is being destroyed along with the unions. Check your history books and see what happens to societies with no middle class, just an incredibly wealthy small upper class and a poor, huge lower class.
You may return to your anti-union rants with my blessing.
Oh...one last truism.... the only thing WORSE than a Union is....No Union.
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Unions CAN be a good thing.
It's what they've become that's the issue.
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Unions take the blame for alot of stuff. Here in Louisville, KY, where we have two Ford plants, I'm constantly hearing "The United Auto Workers union is causing Ford to overprice their vehicles, and is going to cause the downfall of the company".
If a company follows American principles by staying ahead of the competition technologically, then it will have no problem paying its workers a decent wage.
The *real* problem lies with engineers, designers, and company executives. In that they have not kept up with foreign auto makers.
As for Harley, who knows? Maybe all the baby-boomers who were buying bikes got too old to ride.
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Oh...one last truism.... the only thing WORSE than a Union is....No Union. Toad
That depends... look at the US auto industry. Unions are a factor in their crash and burn. It isn't as simple as reducing Unions to a truism. Every union is different.
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Unions and management are equally guilty. The companies are numerically top heavy, and most of the dead weight up at the top is also the source of poor decisions, besides there being too many of them. However, the unions have demanded too much for too little as well. Like anything else, it isn't one side, it's both sides. Both sides are full of greed, corruption, and malfeasance. The manufacturers can not afford management OR unions, and they have both. They've done it to themselves, all of them.
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Why would anybody buy a Harley anyway - plus motorcycles are dangeous.
I just dont see the point of this story.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why would anybody buy a Harley anyway - plus motorcycles are dangeous.
I just dont see the point of this story.
That sure was stinky bait there Grunherz.
Mark
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Toad and Savage. Ain't it the truth.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Unions take the blame for alot of stuff. Here in Louisville, KY, where we have two Ford plants, I'm constantly hearing "The United Auto Workers union is causing Ford to overprice their vehicles, and is going to cause the downfall of the company".
If a company follows American principles by staying ahead of the competition technologically, then it will have no problem paying its workers a decent wage.
The *real* problem lies with engineers, designers, and company executives. In that they have not kept up with foreign auto makers.
As for Harley, who knows? Maybe all the baby-boomers who were buying bikes got too old to ride.
No, the problem is the unions. It doesn't have anything to do with decent wage. The unions are parasytic vampires which enforce bogus programs that cost the US Auto Companies BILLIONS. That's billion, as in 1,000 million. The US Auto companies would INSTANTLY be 2x more competetive if they immediately trim off the Union and the bogus Union programs. If they trimmed it off (and by trim, I mean smash in the face with a sledgehammer), they could sell cars for half as much and still make a profit, as well as put their own money into research and development and make cars way better then the Japs could ever dream of.
To those union lackees, that does NOT mean pay the workers bad wages. But for example, right now there are thousands of workers who sit in a cafeteria and earn a salary. Because of the Union, they sit there and get paid to do nothing.
But they won't. The Unions will continue to suck the Auto Companies dry, until the companies collapse on themselves. And instead of letting the crash happen and letting capitalism take over, the US Government WILL bail them out and the cycle will start over again.
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I used to belong to a union, Teamster's local 480. While the union did some good things for us, we got good wages, and we had reasonable breaks, there was so much abuse that went on it was sickening. It eventually killed one company I worked for, and that cost my parents their farm, as my Dad worked for the same company, and we both lost jobs.
I watched the IBEW take the GE plant here from 1600 workers and the best benefits in the area down to the point where it closed 3 months ago. GE actually had better benefits than Nissan, and the compensation package exceeded what Nissan paid here. The union came in, and a plant that had not missed a delivery in 35 years couldn't deliver on time on a bet. Sure, management went to crap too, and in the end they were as bad as the union, but the union started the slide.
Eventually, UAW will kill the Peterbilt plant here too. I'm really surprised they haven't already. They cost Peterbilt millions when they went on strike a few years ago. I was working for a tier one supplier of PACCAR, the company that owns Peterbilt. We were working a solid 65 hours a week making killer money keeping the supply up, because Peterbilt was swamped with orders, and had a SIX MONTH back log. The UAW went on strike over a small increase in benefits, and by the time the strike ended 7 months later, all the orders were cancelled, and diesel went up, so it never really recovered. The Peterbilt employees went back 2 weeks before Christmas for a cut in pay AND in benefits. The union employees got 1st shift back, then went on strike a year later because of the non union employees on 2nd shift.
But then you have poor management that makes everything worse. The tier one supplier I worked for was so poorly managed that they wasted enough to double the wages of every employee on the floor with ease. Management is now filled with idiots with MBA's that have no idea about reality in business. With engineers who have no idea how things actually work. And with short sided accountants who can only see the per part cost of production as they can generate it with book figures that have no basis in reality at all.
Common sense has left BOTH sides, and neither shows signs of finding it again.
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Looks like Peterbilt was the real loser in that deal. How much did they save by forcing a strike over a "small" increase?
Too much of anything isn't good. Too much Union, too much Management. Neither one is a good thing.
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When you figure that the what PACCAR would have had to pay over the next few decades if they'd given in on the health care issue, it may have hit a very high price. You have to understand that UAW members are now getting 95% or more of their pay if they DON'T work. They're also getting "buy out" packages to encourage them to retire that approach 95%.
No doubt Peterbilt took a major beating. But the Madison plant was closed for 8 months, the UAW employees earned around $100 a week strike pay, as opposed to around $850 a week if they'd worked 40 hours.
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I really dont buy the argument that every workplace needs a union.
And others have pointed out, management and unions can point fault with each other.
But in the case of this issue...the employees do not want to contribute to their own health plan? I just find that to be absurd, if not arrogant.
Yet on the other hand...the parent company of American Airlines posted a nice profit after mechanics, pilots and flight attendants agreed to huge concessions so that the company would survive. What does the company want to do? Reward their management with big bonuses. Huh? What did they give up to make the company successful?
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Originally posted by LePaul
I really dont buy the argument that every workplace needs a union.
Of course not, if they treat you good there is no reason go union. Which is why companies without unions offer a good wage and benefits. It keeps them happy and keeps them from going union. A big reason for that is the unions, without them there would be no reason to offer good wages and benefits if there was no fear of going union. The unions actually help keep non union wages up.
Unions, the people who brought you the weekend
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I though HD weas an employee owned company...
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i though the japanese bought it about 15 years ago....
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Originally posted by Debonair
i though the japanese bought it about 15 years ago....
Nah, that was Rockefeller Center
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Originally posted by Gunthr
That depends... look at the US auto industry. Unions are a factor in their crash and burn. It isn't as simple as reducing Unions to a truism. Every union is different.
One need to look no further than GMAC to see what screwed GM up.
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But then you have poor management that makes everything worse. The tier one supplier I worked for was so poorly managed that they wasted enough to double the wages of every employee on the floor with ease. Management is now filled with idiots with MBA's that have no idea about reality in business. With engineers who have no idea how things actually work. And with short sided accountants who can only see the per part cost of production as they can generate it with book figures that have no basis in reality at all.
Well said , I see this every day at work now compared to even 10 years ago .
Case in point > They buy "cheaper" steel and then we break more drill bits , so they then buy "cheaper" drill bits to offset this . Plus with there new idea of cost reduction of not buy good coolant in our machines and not changing it like it should , everything is harder to get production on time with out more breakage etc .
Then the kicker , ahh Yes we will buy from China , just assemble here , of corse it's cheaper now as they have "@ucked it up so much now , no one can do it as fast as we used to .
One year they decided to quit buying good oil that had seal expander in it to help with leaks . They all pated themselves on their backs , cause they saved that extra money for a that quater . Then 10 years later you should see our coolant as the loving oil leaks into it . I ask if that really was a "cost" saver in the long run and if we could have someone come to our Co meetings and decuss it , I just wanted "someone that gives a **** to come" . Nope no one came . My boss at that time said he guessed "no one really gives a ****" and went on with the meeting :(
You get a bit pissed when they always say it's the "workers" not working hard enough :furious
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Sadly, if my time consulting has taught me one thing, it's that assclowns have a greater percentage chance of survival in the boardroom than they do on the shop floor.
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Whats funny is that by FAR the great % of union employess are government workers---they are the LEAST needful of such a thing
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Originally posted by bj229r
Whats funny is that by FAR the great % of union employess are government workers---they are the LEAST needful of such a thing
Source?
IIRC, only 8-10% of the workforce is unionized at all.
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Retention wasn't your strong point, was it?
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The Teachers Union is the reason our kids are so dumb.
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Originally posted by sluggish
Retention wasn't your strong point, was it?
I work for the federal government. I've heard there are union employees, but I've never met one, not once in fifteen years.
Now, if by government employees, you meant teachers... again, I'm going to have trouble with that number. AFAIK, the U.S. government is the single largest employer in this country. I could be wrong though.
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Originally posted by Xargos
The Teachers Union is the reason our kids are so dumb.
Hmmm.. are the unions the reason why teachers spend 6-8 years becoming qualified to be teachers?
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Teachers Unions are the reason why many of the worthless teachers are in the classroom. Just because someone has been teaching at a school for 20 our 30 years does not mean they are any good.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Teachers Unions are the reason why many of the worthless teachers are in the classroom. Just because someone has been teaching at a school for 20 our 30 years does not mean they are any good.
Oh no... I'm talking 6-8 years of college and post-graduate education to just get in the door.
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Teachers here keep wanting to shorten the school day.:mad:
and want to make summer vacation longer.
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I think people should be judged on how good they are, not by how long they have been there.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Teachers here keep wanting to shorten the school day.:mad:
and want to make summer vacation longer.
Well, around here they just keep lengthening the school year. My next-door neighbor is a teacher. She busts here bellybutton during the school year and it's far more than a 8-4, 40 hour a week type job.
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Originally posted by Xargos
I think people should be judged on how good they are, not by how long they have been there.
I agree. But the problem is figuring out how good they are.
There are so many variables to testing, and the comparisons of tests that I can't really offer up a solution.
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With teachers they should be judged on how well their students learn. If their students are doing poor, that means they are poor teachers.
School is not a assembly line.
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Originally posted by Xargos
With teachers they should be judged on how well their students learn. If their students are doing poor, that means they are poor teachers.
School is not a assembly line.
...and you're going to use what exactly as a metric? Grades? Test scores?
Oh... and school isn't an assembly line. It's a series of gates. Each student spends one year at a particular level and then they are advanced regardless of their readiness for advancement. Fast kids are slowed down and slow kids just move up even when they're unqualified.
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Whatever the test is the Teachers Unions should have no say in it.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Whatever the test is the Teachers Unions should have no say in it.
Hmmm... you would choose some other people? Hopefully some other experts in the education field? Hmmm... let's see... an expert in education that is not a teacher.
Okey dokie.
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As long as those educated people are not in the Union or are not paid by them in any way.
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So you think the Union should have ALL say over education and not the masses?
Just because someone has a degree does not make them smart.
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So... let's see what we have here.
Xargos, I gather that you believe that a teacher that is part of a union should have no say whatsoever about the standards of education, and because of this belief you in turn have decided that anyone that disagrees with this can only believe that a only teachers that are part of a union should have any say at all.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Oh no... I'm talking 6-8 years of college and post-graduate education to just get in the door.
Sandy,
This is incorrect. It takes a BA to qualify for teacher and get hired. Once hired there are continuing education requirements that result in an MA and credits above since the continuing education requirements don't go away. It's not unusual to see an older teacher with tons of credits above a Masters.
Lots of folks complain bitterly about teachers yet have never set foot in the classroom after they graduated themselves. They have no idea of the requirements or what the job entails. Pity, they should really try it out and see how it is on the other end of the classroom. It's not as easy as they might think.
Frankly it's few parents that are actively engaged in seeing to their own childrens education. They can't be bothered to make sure their own kids know that mom and dad are concerned that the kids do well or even show up. It's far easier to blame the teacher for not educating the kids that don't want to learn.
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Originally posted by Xargos
So you think the Union should have ALL say over education and not the masses?
Just because someone has a degree does not make them smart.
The "union" does not make the educational standards the school has to meet. The state sets the standards and tells the schools what they will be teaching and to what level as well as how many days in the classroom. The curriculum is not "union" driven, it's state driven.
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Not in California, Mav. My next door neighbor spent a couple of years getting her credentials in order even after her BA.
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Sandy,
If you are an education major you get the accredidation with the BA. Unless they made a change lately that's what I was told for CA as well. Now if you change majors or switch to teaching after the BA it takes a couple years or three, that's what I did since I already had a BS. By the time I was done I only had 6 credits to go for the MA in Curriculum. So I got them while student teaching.
The state is also the one who sets the teachers standards and evaluates the credentials of the applicants.
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My neighbor majored in childhood development.
...that said, I'm quite prepared to defer to your expertise and accept the fact that I'm wrong and I exaggerated.
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That's a related but different major. She in Elementary?
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Yeah... think she's teaching fifth grade right now.
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What a joke.:mad:
http://www.ccsdschools.com/
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Originally posted by Xargos
What a joke.:mad:
http://www.ccsdschools.com/
You'll have to be more specific.
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Never mind it's a long story. The superintendent is a piece of trash.
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It takes more than an allegation to determine that.
BTW what soured you on education? Are you currently in school?
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http://www.prince.org/msg/105/201835
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So there was a successful suit against the district. How does this make the superintendant "trash"?
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What does it matter what my education level is? I've meet a lot of people with no common sense who have degrees, people that couldn't find their way out of a paper bag.
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There is more to it but I can't find any links to them right now.
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Originally posted by Xargos
What does it matter what my education level is? I've meet a lot of people with no common sense who have degrees, people that couldn't find their way out of a paper bag.
That's not what I asked you though. I asked you what soured you on education and if you were currently in school.
I've met plenty of "educated idiots" and just plain idiots as well. That's not what I was asking about though.
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Sorry Maverick, I misread your reply.
I thought you asked me what my education level was.:o
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My sister has two kids, 11 & 14, one is in public school the other in private. My sister is a part-time teacher at the private school. She has even less money then I do and can not afford to put both her kids into private, she can't afford the one kid even. The only reason she is able to is because they give her a discount because she works there. The one that is in private school was put there because he was doing so poorly in public and they were not willing to help my sister in any way, she would try to talk to the teachers but they acted like she was bothering them and gave my nephew a hard time because his mom cared about his education. He is doing very well now in private school. They 11 year old on the other hand has teachers that just adore him and he is doing very well now in public school. I am very worried about next year though because he wont have the same teachers.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm.. are the unions the reason why teachers spend 6-8 years becoming qualified to be teachers?
No.
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This is the High School I went to and the one my older nephew would be going to if he where not in private.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8269678033654065825