Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on February 04, 2007, 08:20:36 AM
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Ford is considering paying management bonuses (http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/ford-weighs-up-executive-bonuses-for-slashing-jobs/2007/01/26/1169594468285.html) after the largest annual loss in its 103-year history ($12.7 billion), and 40,000 jobs cut.
The workers that remain will rightly be asked to endure some kind of salary or benefit cuts, but this behavior is an example of what has me thinking the business model in America is broken.
Same kind of thing happened in Delphi's bankruptcy, only much worse. The demanded salary cuts were more than 2/3 of the worker's current wages, the retirees lost big in their pension (turned over to the PBGC), and jobs were moved offshore. All while top management raked in millions of dollars in bonus money.
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This stuff slays me, you will read they "need" to pay the bonuses to retain the top management, you know, the guys who lead them into such a horrible financial situation.
Yeah, you really want to retain those kind of leaders. :rolleyes:
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Were would cuts do the most good? Top management of union workers? Were to the other successful car companies make cuts? What other company pays the same salary and benifiets and survives? Is it the jap companies? the germans?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Were would cuts do the most good? Top management of union workers? Were to the other successful car companies make cuts? What other company pays the same salary and benifiets and survives? Is it the jap companies? the germans?
lazs
Not sure who you are addressing your question too, but rewarding leaders of failing companies is no cure.
A good leader would strive to find ways to deliver products the customer wants, he would look for everyway to make his company an efficient and innovative company utilizing technology and R&D to keep his product the best product at the best price possible.
Poor leaders spend time worrying about increasing their stock options, bonuses, and golden parachutes all the while handing out dictates that do not offer hope, and creating an office atmosphere requiring a yes-man mentality to survive.
Cuts may or not be necessary, but it would be impossible to sit here and state "cut management" or "cut production employees" without knowing the structure and staffing of an individual company.
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This is what I'm talking about!
We let this happen because everyone thinks that their voice does not count. Stifle the masses and the minority will follow.
Free America '08
Mac
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poor leaders should not even be retained much less rewarded. If a company does that then they deserve to fail. If the worker costs are not competitive then they need to be adressed... either by increasing production or cutting labor. If a machine takes the place of 5 workers then you can pay a very high salary to the person who runs and maintains the machine for instance.
pretty simple stuff really.
lazs
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However that is EXACTLY what happens Laz. Poor management gets incredible rewards because...they award it to themselves. Great system.
Ford is just the current, most recent example.
In my own experience, the exact same thing happened at Delta. It's a recurring event in US business.
I must say this gives me a chuckle wrt the recent "teh EvIl Unions" thread.
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no problem toad... if a company rewards it's management for poor performance or pays it's workers too much or pays too many of em...
They deserve to go broke.
Someone with more sense will fill in the gap they leave.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
poor leaders should not even be retained much less rewarded. If a company does that then they deserve to fail.
pretty simple stuff really.
lazs
Simple stuff? Not really.
I worked for LDDS (Long Distance Discount Service) and rode the elevator daily with Bernie Ebbers. Stayed on and we became WorldCom after the accusition of Wiltel. Later we merged with MFS and MCI. More and more accusitions.... Then the corruption set in.
Funny thing is WorldCom would do their layoffs in December and then have a job fair in January. Purpose was to eliminate positions and rehire into these positions paying less salary yet increasing the salary and stock options for the executives. Now they were sure they could get away with it all. Accounting started double billing customers thru IDB, MCI and WorldCom and beefing up their Quarterly Financial statements.
Although all of the internal audits of WorldCom showed imense growth it took a seperate independant audit to discover the scam. In the mean time Bernie as CEO decided to retire and take a BIG chunk of change with him. He was caught.
This is one example...
I left WorldCom before the crumble and moved onto Williams Communications. You can basically cut and paste from above, change the names and you have it. Rinse and Repeat.
Then with McLeodUSA. Twice as bad as WorldCom. Only no one went to prison. Prior to McLeodUSA going Chap 11 for the 2nd time within 4 Years the CEO and all of her cronies jump ship with outragous retirement benifits and salary. They also cut all of the customer service reps saying it was more cost efficient to move them to Cedar Rapids, IA. Did the Customer Rep Service move to Cedar after the layoffs? Nope it was outscourced to the Phillipines.
In the three examples I had given above, can you imagine how many Families were devastated by the actions of a few crooked CEO's and their cronies?
I was one.
Mac
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Here's the problem: GREED
The reason the problems are not solved is that no one accepts their own responsibility. Because of GREED.
Management feels that as management, they are entitled to every dollar they can get for themselves, regardless of the consequences, and regardless of how well they do their job.
Labor feels that as labor, they are entitled to every dollar they can get for themselves, regardless of the consequences, and regardless of how well they do their job.
And the Japanese are kicking ALL their tulips with good management and lean manufacturing.
Look, one side is no more or less guilty than the other here, and they can either stop pointing at each other and decide to do something, or they can all go look for a job.
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what is your point? that we need government control over how companies are run and what wages are paid?
If it is a bad company then you need to find another or accept that it may fold. Move on.
It is like you invest all your retirement in one companies stock and then act surprised when you go broke along with the company.
The solutions are all worse than the problem.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no problem toad... if a company rewards it's management for poor performance or pays it's workers too much or pays too many of em...
They deserve to go broke.
Someone with more sense will fill in the gap they leave.
lazs
Yep, they go bankrupt. The top 22 dipshirts in the company (the ones that killed the company) take the money and run, leaving the rank-and-file with nothing. Delta? Enron? The story is always the same.
You see, Mullin has been employed by the airline for only five years and eight months. But a special pension plan that Delta's board created for top executives has credited him--shazam!--with another 22 years of service. Thanks to those phantom years, the 60-year-old CEO could walk away from the airline today and be entitled to receive a payout of about $1 million a year, starting at age 65, for the rest of his life.
And if the airline goes bankrupt, no problem: Special Delta-funded trusts protect the pensions of Mullin and 32 fellow executives from creditors. "During these very difficult times in the industry, the board decided that they needed to do something to retain qualified executives," explains a Delta spokesperson.
NIce touch there... their golden parachute is protectected from creditors. As for "retaining qualified executives"...bahwahahahahahaha. Qualified as Mickey O'Brannigan's pup maybe. Of course, they all left as soon as they were vested in the new system anyway. "Go on, take the money and run".
Yeah... that Union thread was a hoot.
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I agree with Savage that the root of the problem is greed, but disagree that the blame lies equally with both sides. Labor will bear the brunt of management's mistakes. While Labor's greed is punished, management's is instead rewarded handsomely. And the company is often ruined in the bargain.
The same thing happened at my last company. Big takeover by another company; talk of expansion soon dried up as merger integration costs climbed. Soon the talk was of benefit cuts and salary freezes, layoffs and offshoring. Then we found out the top executives had doubled and tripled their compensation while all this was going on.
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Labor's greed is NOT always punished. Explain how a 95% of your regular working wage for NOT working is punishment. Because that is the AVERAGE pay of a UAW worker around here who is NOT working. Not to mention the rest of the "buy out" programs and such. Again we have the one side saying the other is the only one that gets "golden parachutes". How can you reasonably expect any company to pay any employee 95% of their regular wage to STAY HOME AND NOT WORK? Labor OR management.
In most of these companies (and I've had the misfortune to work in a bunch of them and have friends in most of the others) if labor AND management were paid strictly for what they produced most of them would never make minimum wage. I'd LOVE to see the bunch of them on COMMISSION or paid per piece.
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Originally posted by Toad
However that is EXACTLY what happens Laz. Poor management gets incredible rewards because...they award it to themselves. Great system.
Ford is just the current, most recent example.
In my own experience, the exact same thing happened at Delta. It's a recurring event in US business.
I must say this gives me a chuckle wrt the recent "teh EvIl Unions" thread.
Uh, the same thing happens in politics. How many times have you actually agreed with a pay raise for our political leaders?
Unions do not help with this problem at all. I know union supporters like to rationalize this, as a reason unions need to exist, but I'll bet you any amount you like,the unions at Ford will not be abel to do a dang thing about this. Just like the citizens of this country cannot do a thing about our political persons granting themselves pay raises when tey do not deserve them.
This is all about greed. Pure, simple, greed. The only way to eliminate the symptoms (greed) is to kill the disease. And like any disease, the longer we allow it to fester, unchecked, the worse it will get until the host finally dies.
We are never going to cure it. The people who make all the rules also are the largest abusers of the system. No checks and balances to ensure anything is fair.
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No, the Unions won't change CEO compensation and all the other stuff.
All a Union can do is try to grab a bigger slice of the pie when there's a big pie.
And Union mangement teams are just as corrupt as CEO management teams. They make themselves as insulated and comfortable as they can too.
Which is why I always say the only thing worse than a Union is no Union.
The system suxxors, in both politics and in corporations. In the end, it's the average Joe that gets stuck with the bill and the problems from both situations.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Here's the problem: GREED
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
Greed is right.
Greed works.
Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
--- Gordon Gekko
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OMG calvin should pee on those d00ds lolol(http://www.naymz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Calvin%20peeing-785794.GIF)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Were would cuts do the most good? Top management of union workers? Were to the other successful car companies make cuts? What other company pays the same salary and benifiets and survives? Is it the jap companies? the germans?
lazs
Ford has a pension plan...The Jap corps do not..That's the main reason the big 3 are being undercut.
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Another point..the unions have absoluteley no say in product design or engineering.
Yeah..Blame the unions for Ford's own fault.
Ford Employee
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Another point..the unions have absoluteley no say in product design or engineering.
Design and engineering is where Ford (and GM to a slightly less extent) are t3h suck.
Compare a Toyota Camry with a Ford Five Hundred and a Chevy Impala at similar prices. Camry rules in almost all categories.
Ford want to not die? Build a better car first and it's market share will take care of itself.
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well.. we agree then... unions suck but they are only getting as much as they can before the company collapses unlike the evil management.
Ok.. unions do not design the cars.. management doesn't either.. engineers do. Good ones. but..
If labor costs are 70% for your car say and 50% for the competitions... as an engineer.. you are going to be asked (yes by management) to cut costs.
Some things are gonna be painless and not be noticed but at some point... you are gonna be making a very chintzy product compared to the competition and it is gonna show.
Perhaps it would be good to tie managements benifiets to the health of the company. We are kinda seeing this with say enrons guys going to prison... but.. it could be done.
The unions are the lions share tho.. it costs more to build American cars because of the unions and we can't get around that. You just can't... In order to do so you would have to say that the jap manufacturers here... are evil and force them to unionize to level the playing field.
A level playing field in this case would mean... worse... but union... cars for everyone that cost more.
lazs
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Here's the difference (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/)
Each side will cherrypick the data that supports their argument but this chart makes it obvious to me that there's more than just "union" to this problem.
Healthcare or no healthcare?
Huge difference in number of retirees.
Much more time to produce a GM vehicle than a Toyo.
Average plant capacity utilization differs greatly as well.
There are decisions that have to be made and not all the mistakes can be placed at the feet of the unions.
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so toad... you don't think the union had anything to do with the time it takes to build a car or how much money is available to make the best use of the facilities?
I recall some of my experiances with unions where they were absolutely against any modernization that would lay off workers.
lazs
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using your link it would appear that the costs to build a vehicle are about double in labor for a GM union employee.. Health care costs are about 5 times as much...
The union demands "protected" jobs.. (useless but still drawing wages) while the toyota plants give bonus pay for production... the toyota plant is able to use more capacity of the plant with it's far lower labor costs by using overtime..
Tell me again what part is the managment part?
lazs
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Hmmm.... Toyota Tundra, Honda ST1300, and Polaris Victory Hammer in the garage...... guess this means very little to me.
American auto makers, and to some degree the aerospace industry, and a high portion of the high tech industry in the United States, all going to go the way of the coal industry and steel industry.
Lack of leadership, good business sense, and intelligence from industry and government.
Get used to it, adjust, and move on best you can.
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Originally posted by lazs2
so toad... you don't think the union had anything to do with the time it takes to build a car or how much money is available to make the best use of the facilities?
lazs
I think it has as much to do with managment/engineering as it does with unions.
For example, there are some really old US facilities and some really new Toyo facilities.
Many of those workers sitting around drawing pay and not going to work were idled by modernization of facilities. However, the fact remains that our factories are, in general, not as modern as the new factories the Japanese built here.
Additionally, I don't think our engineers are as sharp as theirs when it comes to production techniques.
What it all comes down to is that there are a lot of factors in this and not all of them lie at the feet of the union. The responsibility for failure is shared.
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Originally posted by lazs2
using your link it would appear that the costs to build a vehicle are about double in labor for a GM union employee.. Health care costs are about 5 times as much...
The union demands "protected" jobs.. (useless but still drawing wages) while the toyota plants give bonus pay for production... the toyota plant is able to use more capacity of the plant with it's far lower labor costs by using overtime..
Tell me again what part is the managment part?
lazs
The management part is the design/marketing part. They are getting their tulips handed to them in both categories. They build poor designs and use rebates to market same. It's clearly a factor, deny it as you like.
Also, what of the retirees? A huge expense for the US makers with pay and health care costs of retirees. The "new" Japanese companies have few retirees at this point.
So what do you do there to level the field Laz? These folks that gave their lives to the company in exchange for a contractually guaranteed retirement should be.. what? Turned out, cut loose with a firm handshake and a "too bad"?
Does the company get to abandon them?
It's another one of the multiple factors.
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It's like folk lined up at a pig trough. Too busy devouring the dollars to care about much else.
St. Paul is right that the love of money is the root of all evil.
All the Best,
hap
p.s. gosh how I wish our manufacturing base were back. I fear it is gone for good and all. Talk about demise.
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toad... I think that both management and labor have gone overboard and need to be adjusted.. I also believe that for unskilled labor... the union workers are getting paid far too much... the ones working for the jap companies seem to be doing fine and are happy.
You ask what I would do... I think it is too late to do much of anything if the unions won't adjust.
It won't be me putting em out in the cold or even the management. It will be the fact that they have killed the golden goose. How is a bankrupt company gonna help em?
Would you say that the japs management ruthlesslesly and relentlessly keeping the powerful unions our their factories was a wise management decision? Good management? It would seem so.
We can't really have this conversation unless you tell us how you feel about the jap management or the fact that they are not using the same crippling unions.
What would be your solution? force the japs to use the same crippling uinions?
if they did.. I can guarentee that their quality and engineering would go down if they tried to keep the same prices.
lazs
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I think you are missing that the Japanese are paying close to the same hourly rate as the US manufacturers, ~$4.35 less. That's not enough to explain GM losing $2300 a vehicle while Toyo makes $1500 a vehicle.
There are other intrinsic differences that cannot be laid soley at the feet of the unions.
First of all, Toyo makes better vehicles than GM. Big problem for GM right there.
Then GM's workforce is older...they've been in business longer... so their healthcare costs are higher. On top of that, GM probably has a better, more comprehensive healthcare program than Toyo USA. I suppose you can blame the unions for negotiating good healthcare packages but that seems a benefit worth having and should be a compliment rather than a complaint against the unions.
Then you come up against GM's inability to modernize their factories and produce cars as fast as Toyo. You can blame the unions for that but it's a management function, coupled with engineering the design of the car. Face it, Toyo is better at figureing out how to screw cars together than GM is.
Same with plant utilization, clearly a management function. GM is at 85% and Toyo is 107% with overtime. Which management team makes best use of the available capacity?
Which ties again into design/marketing. If GM built competitive vehicles, they'd be running their factories flat out like Toyo is. It's not that the market isn't there..it's that they don't have what the market desires. Not a labor issue there Laz.
As I said, there's plenty of mud to go round. Both management and labor have been wallowing with pigs.
The point is that BOTH sides are at fault.
I am CERTAIN of this: If labor agreed to work for free for a year to "save" GM, the designs wouldn't change and the price of the cars would either stay the same or go up and management would give themselves a gazillion dollar pat on the back in the form of bonuses, stock options and golden parachute retirement. And you know that's true.
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Originally posted by Dago
This stuff slays me, you will read they "need" to pay the bonuses to retain the top management, you know, the guys who lead them into such a horrible financial situation.
Yeah, you really want to retain those kind of leaders. :rolleyes:
They are being paid bonuses becuase they came up with plans that would reduce cost...
great plans like cut employee's wages....
:D
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I dunno Toad, even if GM had more efficient ways to build a car, they still could not fire anyone, thus there would be really no cost savings to even try and find a better way to build a car.
Dunt get me wrong. While I am no fan of unions, I am also no fan of management whose only desire is to bilk a company for as much as they can, then bail and leave the mess to someone else.
I am not going to go back through the union argument. I am just thankful to work in a state where I do not have to be a member of one to get a job.
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I think you are missing that the Japanese are paying close to the same hourly rate as the US manufacturers, ~$4.35 less. That's not enough to explain GM losing $2300 a vehicle while Toyo makes $1500 a vehicle.
The rate at which a person gets paid is different then what it costs an employer.
Someone may be making 10 dollars an hour, however he costs the employer roughly 25 dollars an hour with fees, taxes, health insurance, workman's comp insurance... The list goes on and on.
The union workers may be making 4.35 dollars more an hour, but they're probably costing hundreds more in unseen costs.
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Depending on the compensation package the usual burden rate for labor is between 2.5 and 3.5.
This means a guy making $10 per hour is costing the company $25 to $35.
UAW is probably on the high side of this number, so an auto worker in the $20/hr range is costing $70.
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MT, that would apply to the Toyo wage as well, then, correct?
Except it doesn't as is evidenced by the age of the workforces and the difference (partly as a result of age) in healthcare costs, etc., etc., etc., etc.
Laser, a lot of those "unseen" costs are common to both companies, like taxes.
The point, if you read it, is that there are many reasons for the disparity and not all of them can be placed on the union. Mangement has it's share of waste, stupidity, theft and deriliction of duty.
If you think they don't, you're only fooling yourself.
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Between the crooked unions and the crooked management, it is a wonder we are manufacturing anything in this country anymore.
But, at the rate of departure, we probably will not be manufacturing anything by the end of this decade. The crooked mamagement will be rich. The crooked union leaders will be rich. The employees,...uh,..well,...hmmm.
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I've worked in many different types of manufacturing companies including union shops and non union shops, large scale product as well as small. That burden rate would be correct for all of those companies, so the rate for Toyo would likely be the same, but I've been wrong before... I think it was August...
of 1980.
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last time i checked china led the world in the production of steel, the USA and japan were tied for second.
tied for second in the world wide production of steel.
not bad for a "service economy" that's "exporting" jobs.
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toad... if you read the link you gave you will see that the total wage package cost is about twice as much for GM as for toyota.
lazs
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Legacy costs are what are killing the U.S. auto companies here right now, they have 4 times as many retirees as employees .
GM and Ford have some of the most efficient plants in the country but under utilization drives up the unit cost.
They also have some of the least efficient, old, technologically deficient plants that they are trying to close.
Look at GM in China, they are the big kid on the block, making money hand over fist in brand new plants, of course their biggest customer is the government of China who is buying all the Regals that can be produced.
The products are for the most part boring but they only have so many design and engineering dollars to work with.
Maybe a bankruptcy with the inevitable shedding of retiree pensions and medical obligations is the only way out.
BTW, the jobs bank that everyone likes to bring up as the poster child of UAW inefficacy and arrogance was initially proposed by GM management.
shamus
PS: I posted this and forgot about the original post, yes management's attitude at Ford, Delphi, GM etc., you know the "we deserve bonuses while the Corp goes down the drain" attitude is rather odd.
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Originally posted by john9001
last time i checked china led the world in the production of steel, the USA and japan were tied for second.
tied for second in the world wide production of steel.
not bad for a "service economy" that's "exporting" jobs.
Uh, you do realize much of the metal we produce is being shipped to other countries so they can build manufacturing to handle all the business being brought thier way from U.S. companies?
For all the things other countries like to say we do poorly, it is widely recognized we have some of the best steel (quality and strength) manufacturing in the world.
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Foreign Countries are paying these CEO's off in an effort to distroy the middle class of America, thereby destroying America. I say these CEO's need to be hung for treason.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
The crooked mamagement will be rich. The crooked union leaders will be rich. The employees,...uh,..well,...hmmm.
...uh...well... will be working for peanuts at jobs that are going nowhere.
The same thing that always happens.
Cheerful, ain't I? :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
toad... if you read the link you gave you will see that the total wage package cost is about twice as much for GM as for toyota.
lazs
Delve into the "why" of that statement and you'll see it's not just the unions Laz.
Older workforce, more retirees, higher health care costs job bank/full pay initiated by management (as shamus pointed out..thx)....
As I said earlier, there's mud on both of them but it certainly isn't solely the unions at fault here.
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A law should be past that no company can give out bonuses if that company has laid anyone off in the past two years.
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Need to find a nice cushy Govt job where you can sit for weeks in a 4 Star Hotel, Per Diem allowances of $10 for Breakfast, $20 for Lunch and $30 for Dinner...cruise around in a new 2007 Suburban, unlimited Corp Card and have unquestionable access to FAA sites and Systems via a Secure VPN access on the new Compaq nx7400 Laptop that sits near my new Corp Cell Phone...
Life is teh Sux...
:cool:
Mac
Amazing what you can do on a "Beefed Up" Resume....
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Originally posted by Xargos
A law should be past that no company can give out bonuses if that company has laid anyone off in the past two years.
A law should be passed that anyone who thinks government involvement in business is a good idea will be banished to france.
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Government already gets involved, they give them big tax breaks. While us middle class must decide between paying for our medication or food.
P.S. And don't insult me like that. I despise Socialism and Communism more then anything else in the world.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Government already gets involved, they give them big tax breaks. While us middle class must decide between paying for our medication or food.
P.S. And don't insult me like that. I despise Socialism and Communism more then anything else in the world.
Who cares about tax breaks when we shouldn't be taxed at all?
What do you think socialism is? Socialism is you believing you know better then someone else's free choice. And then legislating away that free choice.
Don't argue that you hate socialism when you are a proponent of it.
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If a company knowingly does something that hurts this Country then I say they need to be reeled in. The biggest problem with this country is we have to many laws and those laws are only enforced on certain people. Just because I don't believe owners of big companies should rule this country does not make me UnAmerican.
P.S. I have to agree with you on the taxes though.
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And giving out bonuses hurts this country how?
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People work for a company for 20 or 30 years and have earned their retirement then have some new CEO come in and steal that money is OK with you?
Those retired people then have to get help from the Government which hurts this country.
I don't believe people should be rewarded for running a company into the ground.
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You've been conditioned to equate a company's bonus with a very small number of people stealing the company's money.
They are not one in the same.
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Someday lasersailor184 I pray you have to work for a living.
Mac
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^
Give him time; the real world has a way of changing viewpoints. :)
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toad... Of course it is not entirely the unions fault but... the lions share is. The health care and other costs you mention are all driven by unions.
If your cost per hour for an employee is twice that of the competition then your engineers and management have to be either twice as clever or twice as ruthless or a combination of both... I don't believe it is possible for either GM or toyota to be twice as clever as each other.
The result is that the labor costs drive the quality and the management of a company that has to compete. You have to ask your engineers to cut corners.
You can't say we don't have the talent... Look at breakthrough ideas like the new vette and Mustang and even.. the ecotech motor where lot's of money was put into research and damn the profits... sadly... if the labor was cheaper tho... there would be profits on some of these projects along with better quality control and materials... if that were true... no other car company could compete.
We have the best engineers and designers in the world. They are constricted by cost.
Sadly.. the worker is good too... he is no worse than the American building toyotas... But... because he costs so much... he has less time to make sure the job is done right and he is throwing inferior quality parts together on a line that can't be shut down to modernize and can't afford to pay him overtime as easily as his competition... If GM offers bonus's to it's workers like toyota.. it would have to be over and above the already insane wage and benefit package that the unions have gotten over the years.
When it fails.. when it all falls apart.. the unions will die too... thousands will be jobless... the unions don't care any more than management and are bending even less while having an even larger effect on the collapse.
The unions will be just as much to blame as management... maybe more so... and... they care as little as the management does.
They are not socialist saints.. they are mainly high living gangsters in union management. Every bit as evil as the worst enron exec.
lazs
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Well, we're just gonna disagree Laz.
I think if you cut out the difference caused by retirees, for example, the situation would be a lot closer. And, has been pointed out, the "job bank" where idle workers still get paid was a management bargaining goal.
What do you do with those retirees? They worked their lives for the company with the understanding that the retirement would be there. It was a part of the package all those years. Now do you just cancel it because a newer company came in without those legacy costs? When is a deal a deal? This is why any retirement funds should be held in the employees own name.
You think labor wears the lion's share of the blame. I think the mud is essentially equally distributed. The difference is the idiot managers will walk with literally tens of millions of dollars when the company fails, the union bosses will have hundreds of thousands and the everyday working stiff will get nothing but the shaft.
Without abusive management, there'd be no unions.
Unfortunately the only thing worse than a union is ..... no union.
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well... what does toyota do with it's retirees? Why aren't you all upset with toyotas evil management who is consigning their workers to hell on earth?
We do partially agree on the last statement.. but... I think the idea of unions is bad. I think the idea of collective barganing is good.
There should be some way to negotiate fairly. There are groups who do this... professional barganing units.. Arbitrators... Many companies use an "interest based" negotiating style now where everyone lays their cards on the table.
lazs
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as for retirement... the worst examples are those of both union plans and management plans... the very worst are when employees are conned by either unions or management.
enron and the unions who take the money and run.. only a fool would put their entire retirement stake in either.
If a kid at 20 puts $50 a week in a 401 k for instance (he is making $25 an hour don't forget doing unskilled labor) he will be so rich when he retires that it won't matter how bad the unions or the management or social security screwed him.
Why can't a union auto worker afford a 401k? Why can't he buy and pay for a house in his lifetime? Why can't he buy other property or make other investments? why does the management or the unions or the government have to do it for him?
lazs
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The average price of Toyota vehicles in the US is almost $5,900 more than the average price of a GM vehicle.
The day GM builds and markets vehicles that the American public is willing to pay the same average price they pay for Toyota vehicles, GM will make a profit of $3,500 each and eliminate the overall losses. That profit would cover GM's healthcare liabilities and even pay for those bonuses.
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average price means nothing rolex and you know it. they would have to be compared on a like basis. luxury, weight, HP , features warranties... a whole host of items.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... what does toyota do with it's retirees?
They have very few retirees in their US organization. That's the point; they essentially don't have that legacy cost. That's not anything the unions did; it's just a fact of when the companies respectively started.
Why aren't you all upset with toyotas evil management who is consigning their workers to hell on earth?
Toyo USA doesn't have unions for one primary reason: they offer a pay/benefit package very close to the one the UAW workers get. The details differ but the end result is that a Toyo worker and a UAW worker have a comparable standard of living. If the union weren't setting the pace though, you can bet Toyo would be offering less. They offer just enough so that there's no real need for a union. That's pretty smart management, don't you think?
There should be some way to negotiate fairly. There are groups who do this... professional barganing units.. Arbitrators...
I was involved to some degree with negotiations. I'll just answer this by saying anyone can be bought. I've seen it happen. Negotiating a billion dollar labor agreement....... how far would a million in a Cayman or Swiss bank account go towards getting management the contract it desires? Pocket change to management; freedom to the seller/negotiator.
Many companies use an "interest based" negotiating style now where everyone lays their cards on the table.
Yeah, I saw that one too. That one was the longest negotiation of them all.
they would have to be compared on a like basis. luxury, weight, HP , features warranties... a whole host of items.
Just like you have to compare a multitude of factors and variables when considering what "labor" truly "costs". You hold retiree expenses against GM as high labor cost that Toyo doesn't pay. However, the only reason is that GM has been in business here much longer than Toyo USA and actually has a large number of retirees. That's not GM's fault, not any union fault...it's not anyone's "fault"; it's just a fact of life.
Oh, 401K's are fine IF your company offers one. My company did not for a very long time. Further, at my company, they wouldn't or couldn't put my retirement into a 401K in my own name. You could put part of YOUR income in with a small company match up to a certain percent. If it was possible to have had my contractual retirement funds put in a 401K in my own name, I'd rent a furball arena from HT with my spare change. :) Didn't happen that way though... at least my CEO made tens of millions when I lost my retirement though. That thought comforts me when I'm low.
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do you call it bad management when management enters into a contract agreement with the UAW that allows a UAW worker caught red-handed, by management, mainlining heroin in a company bathroom stall, on company time, to not only keep his job, but be paid to attend rehab? (this really happened in Detroit.)
or do you call it a union that makes preposterous demands... ? i think both sides lost touch with reality. this kind of thing kills the industry just as sure as making cars that are unappealing.
don't mean to be a stick in the mud... but there are many commercial endeavors that do not need unions because employees are treated fairly by management - and if they did have one, the employees would ultimately suffer from those rapacious style of unions run by goons who do nothing but constantly file petty grievences and create adversarial relationships uneccesarily. these would probably be smaller to mid sized companies and governments. Some of them certainly need to be unionized, but definately not all them need unions.
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If you're disagreeing with me, I don't think you just typed anything I with which I'd disagree.
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well, i have a problem with your truism "the only thing worse than a union is no union." seems to imply that management is never fair with employees... which is what many of the type unions I don't like would have us all think. the pro, pro, PRO union mentality that i've seen in Detroit. if that isn't your take - well, kindly ignore my comment Toad... :)
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Am I pro union? Not really; OTOH I am certainly not anti union either.
I wish we did not need unions. Unfortunately there can be no doubt that we do need unions to counter management excess.
Also, like it or not, unions set the standards by default. As I mentioned, Toyo USA jobs wouldn't be as good as they are (however good that is) without the UAW. Toyo gives them just enough to keep them close to UAW standards.
So, as I said. The only thing worse than an union is no union. We're screwed with them but we're more screwed without them.
Every company? No. Some companies have intelligent, compassionate mangement that tries to take care of their employees. Damn few of those that I can see on the big stage though; it's mostly the smaller companies that manage that.
Nonetheless, it's indisputable that the unions set the standard and indeed, created our work week lifestyle (40 hours/weekends off), some sort of health care, etc., etc. So, again, many of the "good" non-union companies owe their workers standard of living to the unions.
Like women, you can't live with 'em and you can't live without 'em.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Someday lasersailor184 I pray you have to work for a living.
Mac
The funny thing is that I've held better jobs than you have.
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Unions exist in places where management deserves them.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
well, i have a problem with your truism "the only thing worse than a union is no union." seems to imply that management is never fair with employees...
you need a history lesson, look the homestead steel strike. Carnegie, Frick.
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toad... I am not sure what you are saying by "anyone can be bought" I have been involved in more than a couple of negotiations myself and it sure looked like the union was being bought or whatever to me. Unions have a history of being bought and not just by management.
I do agree with MT that unions exist where management deserves em... the only trouble is... like a contract killer.. they are hard to get rid of once they aren't needed or deserved... they are a very final and harsh solution to a problem... sorta like nukes.. no one wins.
401k? you don't need the employer for em. anyone can open up some form of savings and be rich when the retire.
and costs... it still boils down to the fact that GM spends almost twice as much per hour for labor per hour than toyota... If you aren't getting twice as much out of em you are gonna have to cut costs somewhere else. Quality is no 1... but in this case... it is number one thing to go down the crapper.
lazs
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My biggest problem with unions is that NO ONE should have to belong to one in order to be employed. In some States you have to belong to one in order to be a State employee, while in others you'd get fired for just talking about it. I think that's wrong on both ends.
P.S. Does anyone have info on how much the heads of the major unions make in this country a year?
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you need a history lesson, look the homestead steel strike. Carnegie, Frick. - John
i read the capsulized story of the strike. what is the take-home lesson from this?
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i read the capsulized story of the strike. what is the take-home lesson from this?
the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits.
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Government troops helped him do it. If I remember correctly the US troops set up machine guns around the camp and mowed the workers down.
And who said Big Companies don't rule this country?
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the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits. - John
What about it, John? Does that relate somehow to what I told Toad?
By the way, I've been a union member all my life, in different industries. I remember working in sheet metal fabrication in Detroit in the 70,s and using overhead cranes to unload mill coils fresh from the steelmills off of semi tractor/trailers... and specifically the time period when wildcatters were delivering the steel and would come in SHOT UP from Teamster snipers on I-94.
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Originally posted by lazs2
toad... I am not sure what you are saying by "anyone can be bought"
I'm saying anyone can be bought and further I'm saying that professional negotiators with no ties to the group they are negotiating for, that don't have to live under the contract they negotiate are easier to buy. Union leaders can be bought too, I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying outside negotiators can be bought more easily.
they are a very final and harsh solution to a problem... sorta like nukes.. no one wins.
I think I've been saying that very same thing. Where do we differ?
401k? you don't need the employer for em.
Well, yes you do, actually.
The 401(k) plan is a type of employer-sponsored retirement plan in the United States and some other countries, named after a section of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code. A 401(k) plan allows a worker to save for retirement while deferring income taxes on the saved money and earnings until withdrawal.
anyone can open up some form of savings and be rich when the retire.
That's possibly true; you're not just going to plunk a bit of money a week in a savings account and be rich. You'll need more return than that. I think an important point here, however is that all the IRA stuff was instituted pretty much AFTER the present UAW retirees were vested in their company plans. The ones the company promised to pay as part of an overall contract package that both sides agreed upon and signed.
and costs... it still boils down to the fact that GM spends almost twice as much per hour for labor per hour than toyota... If you aren't getting twice as much out of em you are gonna have to cut costs somewhere else. Quality is no 1... but in this case... it is number one thing to go down the crapper.
Again, what of all those retirees? Just tell 'em "too bad" and quit paying them? Is that a fair deal? Is that right while the managers continue to reward themselves quite handsomely with millions and millions?
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Returning to the original topic for a minute, Toyota and other Japanese company executives don't get bonuses or salaries even close to their American counterparts. Tens of millions of dollars that would have gone into the pockets of a few are better invested in equipment to keep the company competitive. The argument by American car executives that multi-million dollar bonuses and salaries are necessary to retain good people doesn't wash. If that were true, how are competitors earning profits with such "non-competitive" people in management? Toyota gives company performance bonuses to all the employees, not just the executives. I believe Toyota workers in Kentucky got a Christmas bonus of over $10,000.
About half of Toyota vehicles sold in the US are still made in Japan, where the cost of living is almost 50% higher and Toyota has long-standing retirement obligations. And they still have to ship the cars to the US, pay import duties, ship them to dealers after entry and still manage to make a profit. There are many differences in taxes, healthcare, retirement and stockholder expectations between the two societies, though. Japanese workers keep more of their earnings because they pay less in taxes and pay only a fraction of the cost in the US for healthcare.
GM and Ford have almost $100 billion combined in unfunded post-retirement medical liabilities. That gets to the heart of the real money problem for any company doing business in the US. As long as the healthcare and tort law systems remains as they are, nothing will get better for the companies or the workers.
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Originally posted by john9001
the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits.
What a crock of **** john! The take home lesson is that if people feel it is their right to STEAL what is not theirs, they'll attempt to kill in the process. THANK ****ING GOD it was put down. We'd be a communist paradise if it wasn't. Where you don't own anything.
I wish I could have been there, to shoot those outrageous union members myself. I'm glad their strike failed.
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We don't own anything in this country anyway, all the government has to do is accuse you of selling drugs and they seize your house, car, boat, funds and dog. And because they seized your funds you can't hire a good lawyer. And if you think you own your house try not paying your property tax, the government will show you who really owns it.
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rolex is making some sense... so long as we have our system our labor will cost more.
Toad.. there are IRA's that people can invest in that are tax deffered... you don't need an employer to do it.
As for you guys saying we need unions or the management would be having the local cops shoot everyone up? that is against the law... the union doesn't have anything to do with stopping management from killing employees... in fact... with the mob connections of various unions in the recent past.... probly more people got killed because of unions than would have without em.
With unions... nobody wins. With bad management... nobody wins. Both realize this in some dim way and both try to suck as much out of the host before it dies as they can.
I really don't know what the answer is but rolex hinted at it...
tort reform would go a long ways... by that I mean... "first we hang all the lawyers" they breed rapidly so this would have to be done every 10 years or so.
You could base the hunting season on how thick the "attorney" section of any metropolitan phone book was. When it reaches 5% of the total pages... time for a lawyer hunt to thin the herd.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Toad.. there are IRA's that people can invest in that are tax deffered... you don't need an employer to do it.
Sure there are....now. Point is that IRA's are relatively new to the retirement scene if viewed through the lens of someone who worked for GM from 1960 to 1995 and is now retired. That guy was counting on his "company retirement". Probably never figured he would need an IRA.
A lot of what you cite as a difference is "legacy" costs like these that a relatively new start up like Toyo USA doesn't have. What's the answer? Hose the retiree and steal the money he was promised? Same with healthcare really.
Both realize this in some dim way and both try to suck as much out of the host before it dies as they can.
I pretty much agree with that. However, I'd add that management will continue to bleed the host without regard to exterior events. As we've seen, the CEO's have no shame. Enron, Worldcom, the list is long.
See if you agree with this: If the Ford unions gave up hundreds of millions of dollars in concessions to save the company, the CEO would then award themselves tens of millions for "saving the company".
You know it's true. And Joe Average worker has seen it so many times that he's totally sick of it and unwilling to give those bast tards another hog trough to clean out.
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I agree... but... let's reverse it... if the management all took huge cuts and the company went into a huge profit cycle.... the unions would ask for a monstrous salary and bennie package for the next contract based on "company profits"
go on... you know they would... everyone does.
Nope... they are stuck in a cycle off distrust and both have good reasons to be that way. In the end... there will just be a lot of people out of work and a lot of people going broke.
neither side will give an inch.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I agree... but... let's reverse it... if the management all took huge cuts and the company went into a huge profit cycle.... the unions would ask for a monstrous salary and bennie package for the next contract based on "company profits"
lazs
I know of a particular example where a union gave up wages and benefits until and if the non-union employees got a raise or the execs took bonuses.
Wanna guess which one happened first?
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OMFG r u a delta pilot??
LMAO
PWNT!!!1
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Originally posted by Toad You know it's true. And Joe Average worker has seen it so many times that he's totally sick of it and unwilling to give those bast tards another hog trough to clean out.
Ding!
Give the Man A Cookie,
hap
p.s. Trenchant Sir Toad
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if the unions are so guilt free in this then how do you explain that unskilled workers are making so much money and are getting twice what comparable workers get?
None of that bothers me... everyone should get what the market will bear... but in this case.. it appears that the union is getting more than the market will bear and is about to kill the golden goose. it does boil down to that in the end. Salaries at the top won't do the dragging down. Incompetence? sure.. but not a few million a year here and there...
Like teachers... they are overpaid for what they do and... like teachers they control the wages and have a lock.. I hope that public schools fail too.. They would of course but... the public school union workers have made a pact with the devil (democrats) and so are untouchable at this point.. either way...
cars or schools.. with those unions.. we all lose. we get failed industry and stupid kids.. I don't think management is the root cause of either.. it is the unions and government interferance.
lazs
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Story in our local financial rag down here yesterday that three academics had made the startling discovery that CEOs were willing to sacrifice long-term shareholder value in order to make short-term revenue targets.
Wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry - those professors must have been the last three people on earth to get the news.
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Just food for thought... when the Mustang was re-introduced... it was handled like a Skunk Works operation. Small, compact team, fast decision making. It came in under budget, ahead of schedule, and turned into their best seller. (note: my g/f owns one... and the car sucks, badly... but the project itself was marvelous).
Beauracratic oversight is what kills projects and companies. You can lump crappy CEOs & Union bosses into this category.
When Management or Unions get involved, problems get alot more expensive and time consuming.
When the government gets involved, it becomes far, far worse.
Check out Skunk Works by Ben Rich. Kelly Johnson's rules to live by apply to many different businesses. I run my company with similar rules, and our growth rate is tremendous. It also helps that our products are not nearly as complex as aircraft :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think management is the root cause of either.. it is the unions and government interferance.
lazs
Which came first, piss-poor management or unions? Answer that honestly and you have your root cause.
We will agree to disagree.
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Originally posted by lazs2
if the unions are so guilt free...
lazs
What thread are you reading, Lazs? No t a single person in this thread has made a claim that the unions are guilt free.
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toad... even a cursory look at management in the 18, and 19th century will show that management was not only greedy but... they were unlawful.
obviously.. they were the "root" of all labor/management problems... that does not mean the the unions are now free to cause their own problems.
shooting workers using federal troops is not really a "management" thing so much as it is an unconstitutional thing. When this happened the government was just as much to blame as management.
To say that a loss of union power would return us to a century or more ago is not really very relevant. To say that the unions have to exist or workers will be slaughtered by union troops is not really relevant either.
Just as the "root" cause for unions was bad... no... evil.. management and government willing to go along for growth... the "root" cause of todays problems in the auto industry and the teaching industry is...
the unions.
The fact that neither side will budge from their grasping greed means that we will see industries fail and education standards continue to drop.
I will continue to buy older cars, invest in property and send my grand daughter to catholic school.. the rest of you are on your own.
lazs