Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on February 04, 2007, 09:31:26 PM
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Ok enough is enough.
spent 4+ hours doing repairs for the last time on this Beat up old XFighter.
Now Im at the point where I HAVE to get a new Stick.
See I dont buy online alot. Im the type that wants to se and actually be able to touch and hold something before I buy it. so Im not real comforatble buying online.
so I been putting it off doing repair after repair.
But now Im backed into a corner
Considering no stores around me carry CH sticks I have no other option
Its gonna be a CH. that much I've already made up my mind about
Question is, Outside of buying directly from CH itself. Which online place is the most reputable to buy from?
Next question.
On the CH throttle I see it has 3 buttons on the far side.
Can these be programed to individual game functions?
Or are they strictly mode selector switches?
In my case I want ot use those 3 buttons for my rudder like I would use the S,D,and F keys on the keyboard
also I see alot of people preferring the Saitech throttle over CHs.
Why?
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for CH Products try these following sites:
http://www.provantage.com
http://www.securemart.com
http://www.newegg.com
yes you can program the front/fingers side of the throttle ( 3 buttons ) via keymapping individually for rudder use.......
I think people buy the Sateik stuff for the price....... but that is an opinion.......
also alot don't like the reach one needs on the CH sticks ( need a larger hand most claim )
I would say if your hand measured 7 1/2" or better, stretched out from wrist line to tip/end of your middle finger you should be ok with the CH sticks........under that and your reach would be a stretch for the farthest hats/buttons......unless you make a rest on the stick as some on here have done and posted pics of...
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I decided to go with the Saitek X52 over the CH stick only because of the price. According to the reviews that I read the CH is a better performing joystick but the Saitek is much more ergonomic. Apparently the CH is a close replica of an actual F16 stick so it is quite large. The X52 is adjustable and is designed to a bit more comfortable to use. The CH software is more versatile because it allows more control over keymapping but the Saitek software is easier to use.
If the CH stick/throttle would have been cheaper I would have gotten it. You can buy the X52, which includes the stick and throttle, for the price of just the stick or throttle from CH.
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About Saitech Vrs CH preferenceI was referring to the throttle comparison and prefrence of one Vrs the other
Fortunately I can and have touched and held the Saitech stuff.
But in every single store I've been in the pinky switch has been busted on the display model. which has been one reason why I'm not going Saitech on the stick
I might end up buying both, a CH stick. and a Saitech combo as pricewise it works out to about the same as if I went all CH (plus I get the benifit of having a spare stick)
But. if the general prefrence is for CH. then maybe I'll just go all CH
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I would say if your hand measured 7 1/2" or better, stretched out from wrist line to tip/end of your middle finger you should be ok with the CH sticks........under that and your reach would be a stretch for the farthest hats/buttons......unless you make a rest on the stick as some on here have done and posted pics of...
Combat and Fighter sticks are a bit of stretch for my thumb. Finger/wrist length is not I think as critical as across the palm with thumb extended.
Now that dimension from side of palm to tip of extended thumb is 6 1/2" for me. If it was 7" it would be no trouble at all ! As it is because I find that eight way hat such a stretch I use it for other keys and not the views where you need a comfortable setting for extended use.
The throttle on the other hand (literally if you wish!) is no trouble at all.
In another thread a CH throttle user has set their mini stick for Yaw which sounds quite an interesting idea. However I would urge all CH users to get the pedals and do it properly:)
Edit.
I thought I have some scrap 12mm MDF and so knocked up a rest after initial posting! It works and can now comfortably reach the top 8 way hat.
Too late to change habit though so I don't think it will stay.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/Myrest.jpg)
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Originally posted by Blagard
Combat and Fighter sticks are a bit of stretch for my thumb. Finger/wrist length is not I think as critical as across the palm with thumb extended.
Now that dimension from side of palm to tip of extended thumb is 6 1/2" for me. If it was 7" it would be no trouble at all ! As it is because I find that eight way hat such a stretch I use it for other keys and not the views where you need a comfortable setting for extended use.
The throttle on the other hand (literally if you wish!) is no trouble at all.
In another thread a CH throttle user has set their mini stick for Yaw which sounds quite an interesting idea. However I would urge all CH users to get the pedals and do it properly:)
Edit.
I thought I have some scrap 12mm MDF and so knocked up a rest after initial posting! It works and can now comfortably reach the top 8 way hat.
Too late to change habit though so I don't think it will stay.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/Myrest.jpg)
thanks for posting an example, Blagard.
I just used wristline/bottom of palm to middle finger tip as a rough gauge, mine is 8 1/8th /8 1/4 estimate and my dimension from side of palm to tip of extended thumb is 7 5/8" or tad more for me. I figured a lil less than the size of my hand and people would still be okay with the reach of the furthest buttons/hats......where as I have no problem at all, also I have pretty good dexterity as well since I play at the guitar.......( <---means I am no Brad Paisley or Prince )
Dred, as for the Satek HOTAS, I see alot of people posting they like them, but I have never personally tried any outside of the ST290 model, and I have seen alot of post saying where after some use they fail/break.......same can be said for a few post on CH Products, but from my experience CH will last you a lifetime if you are not an Yank n Bank Hamfisted type flyer.....or get mad and throw the thing across the room.......
personal opinion is the way people fly , some are smooth and precise, their equipment will probably outlast a jerking yanking type flyer's stick 3 or 4 to 1.......
btw, the weblinks I posted are usually far cheaper on full HOTAS setups than going thru CH directly......
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Originally posted by Blagard
The throttle on the other hand (literally if you wish!) is no trouble at all.
In another thread a CH throttle user has set their mini stick for Yaw which sounds quite an interesting idea. However I would urge all CH users to get the pedals and do it properly:)
Would love to get a set of pedals and will too at some point.
But this is the slow season for me right now. and while I have money comming in. Its not exactly hand over fist.
And while I dont need the wifes permission, to buy what I want Not that I would seek it to begin with LOL
I do realise I have to exhibit at least some sort of fiscal responcability.
$200 right now is about the limits of my wallet.
the stick is a must. The only debate is do I complement it with a set of pedals, or the throttle?
Based on the way I fly, I've identified my single largest shortcomming as my throttle work. So The throttle would be much more usefull to me then if I just got the pedals.
If I got the pedals qnd not the throttle. my hand would still be all over the keyboard for throttle RPM settings , trim, Vox etc.
whereas if I have the throttle, and can use those forward buttons for the rudder. I have easy access to everything without having to look or fumble around the keyboard.
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A couple of thoughts. The current X-52 is running less than $100 now. The new X-52 Pro is between $185 and $199. Both have adjustible handrests and access to the stick hats is very good. I've had both the X-45 and X-52 over the years and have never had any problem with the pinky switch, it's probably broken in the stores because of some hamfisted shopper has tried to move the handrest adjustment without knowing what they're doing. Have not had the opportunity to try out the X-52 Pro but have heard very good things about it. They've changed the spring mechanism to a progressive type and changed the spring cup to metal so the movement remains smooth and it's a bit stiffer than the X-52. They also changed the overall style a bit by going all black and selectable colors for the buttons and more metal controls. Might be worth a look.
Regarding the access to the CH stick's controls, I think it is based on the F-16 stick grip. If so and the size and layout has been copied that is probably the source of the control access issues. The real F-16 stick is down on the right side of the cockpit, not sitting up in front of you on a desk. The angle that your arm makes is very different since the stick is too high for it's design. That's probably is what's creating the problem, I'd bet that if you could find a way to put the stick base lower down and near your right knee the access would't be as much of an issue.
Also, I've got the Saitek pedals and I love them. I've never tried CH pedals but from those that I've heard from that have tried both they prefer the Saitek. Mostly I think this has to do with them having greater width than the CHs. When you do get around to pedals you should also take a look at them.
Edit: forgot to mention but I've used Newegg several times and have never had any problems at all.
Mace
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Regarding the access to the CH stick's controls, I think it is based on the F-16 stick grip. If so and the size and layout has been copied that is probably the source of the control access issues. The real F-16 stick is down on the right side of the cockpit, not sitting up in front of you on a desk. The angle that your arm makes is very different since the stick is too high for it's design. That's probably is what's creating the problem, I'd bet that if you could find a way to put the stick base lower down and near your right knee the access would't be as much of an issue.
Mace
Mace brings up a good point here. I have my CH stick sitting to my right with the top of the base about mid thigh high, and that is still a little high. I can reach all of the buttons and switches with no problems, and I don't have real large, or real small hands. It's just that my wrist is cocked up a little bit which can get uncomfortable after flying for any extended time. When I have the time I plan on lowering the stick so that the top of the base is at the same height as the top of the seat cushion. I feel that by lowering the stick about 2-3" will make it more comfortable for me.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Based on the way I fly, I've identified my single largest shortcomming as my throttle work. So The throttle would be much more usefull to me then if I just got the pedals.
The throttle is by far the better investment than the pedals IMO.
The CH Contol Manager Software will enhance the Stick/Throttle combination no end. FYI I use the throttle wheel on the Stick for RPM setttings otherwise not a lot of use for it when you have the pro-throttle!
Generally I do not use the Throttle mini-stick although it is currently mapped as a mouse. So I think using it for rudder could be a real possibility and worth at least trying, especially if you can comfortably use the joystick eight way for horz views so a button on the throttle can give you "up" to combine with it.
Best of luck!
Originally posted by Mace2004
Regarding the access to the CH stick's controls, I think it is based on the F-16 stick grip. If so and the size and layout has been copied that is probably the source of the control access issues. The real F-16 stick is down on the right side of the cockpit, not sitting up in front of you on a desk. The angle that your arm makes is very different since the stick is too high for it's design. That's probably is what's creating the problem, I'd bet that if you could find a way to put the stick base lower down and near your right knee the access would't be as much of an issue.
This made me think that if a lower position is not practical then perhaps a "ramped base" to sit the joystick on may help. I gave it a try packing one side of the base up with books and it really does improve access to the top buttons for people who might otherwise struggle. Because the angle of your arm to the joystck is now different, it feels that a lighter grip by the fingers rather than the back of the stick sitting in the palm of the hand.
I intend to give this a trial after making something to replace the books!
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Tried this place for CH Products? http://www.pilotshop.com/flight-simulation-controls-joysticks-c-53_202.html?osCsid=e688ae462fd409433e89463c060e3ab1 (http://The Pilot Shop) They seem to be at least $10 bucks cheaper than any where else I've seen.
While I was spoiled by my old analog CH F-16 HOTAS and Pedals, costs forced me to go to Saitek's X52 with the adjustable hand stick... tons of buttons, wheels, and hats to program, and IMHO... it's far easier programming the X52 than the F16-combat stick and pro-throttle. Saitek's X52 HOTAS (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/x52.htm) Couple that with their new Pro Flight Rudder Pedals (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/proflight.htm) , and you got one hot system for half the CH price.:aok
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The other thing to remember if you can't stretch to pedals is that the X52 has a twist-grip rudder option. The CH sticks don't have that option.
Twist grip rudder - whilst not as good as pedals - is miles better than using the keyboard or some rotary knob.
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i bought a fighterstick, throttle quad., and pedals from provantage. came in quick and prices were great.
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Ok its done.
From Pro Advantage I ordered the CH Fighterstick
(http://www.provantage.com/fullsize/10016405.JPG)
and Pro Throttle
(http://www.provantage.com/fullsize/10016400.JPG)
Including S&H it came out to $199 even and claims it will be her ein 3-5 business days.
Gonna be weird getting used to a new setup after using this old TM X Fighter for the last almost 10 years.
but its at the point where I literally have components superglued into place now so even if I had to change them...
It would be an adventure.
the control isnt what it used to be. to the point where when I pull. even ever so slightly it "jumps" up often higher then what I want. Meaning Im missing alot of shots I should be making unless Im flying completely steady
It will be interesting to see how much more precise I can be now
not to mention being able to do both the throttle AND the rudder at the same time.
so far for mapping my plan is all view and gunnery options will be maped to the stick.
Onthe throttle will be...throttle, flaps, Rudder input and probably trim and Vox if its doable that way.
Any other suggestions?
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God how I hate.... ermm, envy you Drediok. That's like my old analog gear what passed on...
*wonders if voodoo can resurrect the throttle as he stares out back wher the mound of dirt is settling*
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I mapped the views to the throttle hat and don't use the hat on the stick for anything. Still only touch the keyboard to type.
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Originally posted by Odee
God how I hate.... ermm, envy you Drediok. That's like my old analog gear what passed on...
*wonders if voodoo can resurrect the throttle as he stares out back wher the mound of dirt is settling*
beleive me. I've envied alot of people who had full setups.
While I was always happy with this stick, And I still like the ovrall button layout even more then the stick Im getting. (I'd rather have extra buttons then extra hats on the stick)
This has been a long time comming. Alot of cannibalizing parts from alot old Top Gun sticks to keep this one going. Though I wish I had figured out sooner that you can upgrade the red pushbutton switches with ones from Radio shack for about $2 a pair alot easier then trying to replace that little box.
But we're talking literally years of repairs here.
All but one of the screws that hold the stick itself the part you hold onto are long since stripped and its mostly being held together with electrical tape. And Im my last remaining good 4 way hatswitch with is now superglued into place because the internal parts that hold it in place broke off. Same thing with the switch the trigger button presses against when you pull the trigger.
So. There are the final repairs I am going to be able to do to it.
Hell I've been threatening to get a new stick for at least two years
LOL I think I've paid enough dues to be deserving of a new setup now. Bitten the bullet long enough
.;)
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
While I was always happy with this stick, And I still like the ovrall button layout even more then the stick Im getting. (I'd rather have extra buttons then extra hats on the stick)
I've seen this statement several times on these boards regarding the CH fighterstick, and I'm kind of perplexed by it. I look at each hat as 4, buttons , even more with the option of mapping differant modes when using the CH throttle and stick.
I have more buttons than I can use on the throttle and stick and with the addition of TrackIR I have even more empty "buttons" on my stick.
SIK1
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'd rather have extra buttons then extra hats on the stick
I do not use even the eight way hat on the stick as a hat, I just use the positions as buttons as SIK1 indicated. You have to remember as well that each hat point can be programmed in many different ways to achieve almost anything you want except auto kill!
Action on press or release or both, single action or key held type response, key combinations, macro's, different commands on press and release, the variations are endless.
What you will be overlooking if you have not had the throttle with buttons before, is just how useful it is to control views with combinations of stick and throttle hat/buttons.
So keep an open mind on how your hands will work together and be prepared to experiment by saving different configurations as separate templates so you can go back to favorites and modify them a bit before saving as yet another template. I have got down to just one now with the occasional trial one to check out alternative ideas. The hats are so positive in action, the only one where you may accidentally hit an adjacent control is the 8 way type!
Half the time I cannot remember what most switches do if I am thinking about it, play the game and you end up flicking hats and buttons by second nature, auto pilot way!
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Ok flew a bit last night with the new setup.
THIS is gonna take some getting used to LOL
I have to fight the urge to move my hand to the keyboard
Didnt do too bad overall. First flight I managed 3 kills in a 109F and still had over 100 Cannon rounds left throttle sure does help in getting behind someone and staying there.:aok
I dont have all the stuff mapped out yet.
Hell I keep forgetting where I have stuff mapped out.
Im sure I'll be changing as I go along as Im trying to set things to where they feel natural to me.
The stick is very nice. much more precise.
Some initial impressions.
While I am able to reach the 8 way hat without much difficulty. I beleive the 8 way had would be better served where the 4 way castle hat is located. And vise verse
It just feels like it would be more natural there.
Dont suppose there is a way to switch the two is there?
Im betting all the thumb hats are placed on a single circuit board making that impossable
Ive seen alot of debate over the stick positioning High stick Vrs low stick.
I agree that it is easier to reach the 8 way hat in the low stick position. but the handrest is designed incorrectly for that.
While the hats are positioned for a low stick position. the handrest is is setup for the high stick position. and the two just dont jive quite right.
Whats needed there. and what I will add is not a way to raise the entire handrest up but rather just then back of the handrest (the part that is closest to the player) in the shape of a wedge with the wider part of the wedge near the player, tapering off toward the front.
I figure some self hardening clay will do the trick nicely and I will be able to customise this to the shape of my hand creating a perfect fit
The stick. with the exeption if the 8way hat placement overall is great though. I am sure I will get used to it over time
Other then the handrest position. the only other flaw I see in the sticks design is the lack of a two stage trigger button.
the trottle as I've said works great.
all in al the single largest obsticle I see is just getting used to the new setuip and remembering where I programed everything.
So I figure while I will have no shortage of kills my knife fighting is gonna be a bit awkward for a while.
Only problem now is I want a set of pedals.
which after this purchase I just cant afford right now LOL
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Dont suppose there is a way to switch the two is there?
No
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
While I am able to reach the 8 way hat without much difficulty. I beleive the 8 way had would be better served where the 4 way castle hat is located. And vise verse
It just feels like it would be more natural there.
Dont suppose there is a way to switch the two is there?
Agreed the Stick 8 way is too high, but now that you are experimenting, just try using the throttle eight way for views and a hat or button on the stick for staight up / down. I use the low 4 way for up and down. When using the throttle 8 way you actually have the up position for look left, down for look right, and push away to right for forward (all others are obvious intermediate positions). Believe me this is the natural way to use that hat! If it does not work for you, nothing is lost in trying.
I also found that mapping progressively helped. i.e. get your primary buttons / hats sorted out first and leave the rest unmapped for filling in once you get the important ones sorted.
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DREDIOCK,
Check out the
http://www.ch-hangar.com/
Two stage trigger mode for the FighterStick
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197864&highlight=stage
I have a small hands and I must use a ~0,5inch foam spacer to reach comfortably the 8 way hat.
(http://warezhouze.1g.fi/Here/controls/Fdesk64.jpg)
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Ya know, suddenly I don't feel quite so small anymore. I have small hands for a guy. So small that I have to buy womens gloves to get a proper fit. Yet I can reach all the hats, and buttons with no problems on the CH gear. :rofl
Makes me wonder if Drediok is altitude challenged, or just an extremely well spoken youngster. :O
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Originally posted by Odee
Ya know, suddenly I don't feel quite so small anymore. I have small hands for a guy. So small that I have to buy womens gloves to get a proper fit. Yet I can reach all the hats, and buttons with no problems on the CH gear. :rofl
Makes me wonder if Drediok is altitude challenged, or just an extremely well spoken youngster. :O
I have no problems at all reaching the 8 way. or any other hat It just doesnt feel natural up there. like it belongs there. And the handrest isnt designed correctly.
If I hold the stick as though it were a gun. My pinky rests fin on the hand rest. my thum reaches the 8 way perfectly. but farther back in the handrest there is a 1/2 inch gap.
when I make my adjustments I'll post a pic but what I am saying is to rest the hand comfortably and perfectly on the rest the back of the rest. that is, the part closer to the player. should be higher then the front part of the rest where the pinky switch is.
Minor design flaw really
By altitude challanged? I can only assume you mean height.
Im almost 5'9". 5'8 3/4" to be exact
So if you compare me to someone who is say 6'7" yea. Im altitude challenged :p
BTW Im 45 years old. a mere youngster to an 80 year old LOL
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Originally posted by Xjazz
DREDIOCK,
Check out the
http://www.ch-hangar.com/
Two stage trigger mode for the FighterStick
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197864&highlight=stage
I have a small hands and I must use a ~0,5inch foam spacer to reach comfortably the 8 way hat.
(http://warezhouze.1g.fi/Here/controls/Fdesk64.jpg)
Ok now take that same idea only instead of a flat peice of foam which raises the entire rest up and thus farther away from the pinky button. Taper it towards the dront of the stickso its thinner at the pinky switch.
Then see if that feels even more comfortable and natural for ya
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Odee,
It's not question about do I reach the 8 way, because I do. It's all about how confortable the usage is.
DREDIOCK
The spacer is sloped a bit from pinky side. Other switch is my Saitek X35T throttles shift button.
(http://warezhouze.1g.fi/Here/controls/spacer_switch.jpg)
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My MDF rest as it ended up to allow access to pinky button whilst raising the back.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/Myrest2.jpg)
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While I am able to reach the 8 way hat without much difficulty. I beleive the 8 way had would be better served where the 4 way castle hat is located. And vise verse
I know Grimm converted his 4-ways to 8-ways on his CH stick. The only difference between the switches is the plastic guide under the button. The 4-ways have a + shaped guide that limits the movement. When he trimed the corners of the guide, it works like an 8-way. I don't have a CH stick to look at, but I know it only took him a few minutes with a dremmel to do the modification.
Gunner
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I have done it on my old gameport fourway to convert to eightway.
I would not recommend this on brand new USB gear unless it is a proven modification that does not upset the CH CM Software. In any event not until the warranty has expired!
The guide is in fact like a diamond shape. By removing material from the slanting sides until it is nearer square shape it allows both switches to operate at the same time i.e. you remove the red area as sketch below.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/CH-Mod.JPG)
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Originally posted by Blagard
My MDF rest as it ended up to allow access to pinky button whilst raising the back.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/Myrest2.jpg)
that is exactly what Im talking about
Did pretty much the same thing with a peice of scrap extruded polystyrene board insulation I had laying around.
Works perfectly.
Now if I can only get used to having a throttle and so many buttons.
Im sure to my family I now look like an epeleptic when I fly now LMAO
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Originally posted by Blagard
I have done it on my old gameport fourway to convert to eightway.
I would not recommend this on brand new USB gear unless it is a proven modification that does not upset the CH CM Software. In any event not until the warranty has expired!
The guide is in fact like a diamond shape. By removing material from the slanting sides until it is nearer square shape it allows both switches to operate at the same time i.e. you remove the red area as sketch below.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/CH-Mod.JPG)
Where were you with this mod 2 years ago? LOL
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Clay works PERFECTLY
for $2 I picked up some black "Sculpey" clay at "Micheals" craft store took me all of about a minute and a half to mold it to just the way I want it and to my hand perfectly.
It sticks without glue without falling offand I can lift it off and bake it in the oven if I wish to make it hard.
For now Im going to leave it soft and play the game for a while and make sure I like the feel. If I dont like it I can simply peel it off and remold it till I get it just right. Then Ill lift it off and bake it to make it hard.
I picked up some of that "Handitak" reusable adheasive (kinda like clay but more sticky) to affix it in place. that way if I ever decide I dont like it. I can just pull it off.
No tools needed.
im tellin ya gents. This is the way to go. Its fast,easy, cheap and feels more comfortable then even the original handrest because the top part is molded to the shape of my hand perfectly.