Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: badhorse on February 05, 2007, 06:59:38 AM
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What is the damage model for GV's?
There have been many times when I will shoot a tank with a panzer or Tiger and he will explode. But I get an assist because he had previously been straffed by an airplane. Even if he shows no apparent damge, ie. still moving, still shooting.
Does the kill go to whomever shoots the target first? I would think blowing someone's turret off causes more damage then a straffing run with .50 cals.
Just curious.
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the damage model is very strange but if a guy straffs a tank with 1000 .303 rounds although he dont do no damage it counts the hits.so your 1 tank round my kill the tank but he had 999 hits before u.
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I personally think the kill should go to the guy who inflicts the most damage. Not by bullet counts,lol:lol
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I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the GV damage model is WAY more complicated than the airplane damage model and not easily explained by anyone but HT or Pyro.
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Originally posted by rogerdee
the damage model is very strange but if a guy straffs a tank with 1000 .303 rounds although he dont do no damage it counts the hits.so your 1 tank round my kill the tank but he had 999 hits before u.
Bullets can bounce off armor. Just because hit sprites are seen does not mean damage was done.
Kill goes to the one who does the most damage.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Bullets can bounce off armor. Just because hit sprites are seen does not mean damage was done.
Kill goes to the one who does the most damage.
Strafe a tiger with a 110 till guns dry . The tiger will have/ can have NO apparent damage. IE no turret smoke no engine smoke.
Now have a friend hit it with a tank round and see who gets the kill.
I'll bet you get it in the 110.
Bronk
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Bullets can bounce off armor. If they do bounce off, they will not score their potential damage. Can does not mean the same as will.
In your somewhat obvious example, if you add up the equivilent damage potential in pounds of orndinance for the gun package of the 110 it would be nearly 3000lbs of ordinance. Some percentage of those rounds will score damage.
The strongest tank AP round is equilivent to 117lbs of ordinance. Do the math.
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Murdr I understand how it works. What I'm getting at is the damage model for GV need a bit of tweaking.
Since tanks take no real damage from HE rounds until AP used. (other than tracking them)
The kill should be awarded to either.
A. The player penetrates the armor.
B. The near instantaneous exposure to large amounts of HE. IE GP Bombs
Bronk
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I do agree that it's a bit odd that the guy who does no damage gets the kill.
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In that respect it is the same as the aircraft damage model. Just because part failure doesn't happen, doesnt mean there's "no damage". Don't tell me you've never been tracked or lost engines or guns from pure strafing?
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then why when I strafe a gv just 1 time with a hog, I get the kill 90% of the time when a gv or a bomb is dropped on it? Keep in mind that the hog that i fly is the -1 with 50cals. U telling me that a .50 cal is gonna do any damage to a tiger or panzer? Only thing i might do to either is track and even that a slim chance with .50 cals.
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I have never lost a turret or engine from HE rounds. That is in a T-34, panzer, or a tiger.
I have been tracked though.
AP from IL2's and 2D's are another story.
Bronk
Edit: I don't think tracking a tank would qualify as killing it. Crew ac still turn the tank to keep frontal armor toward enemies, and still fight.
Once engine is shot out it becomes much harder to survive.
Same can be said if main gun is out.
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That's the point- it's exactly like the aircraft model. The damage characteristics are completely different, yet even ineffective strafing (that which results in no damaged components) awards the kill to the fighter.
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HiTech has stated numerous times on here and at the con's the GV damage model is the most complex in AH. it details trajectory, angle of impact, velocities, thickness of armor in minute details, all that.
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Originally posted by Murdr
In that respect it is the same as the aircraft damage model. Just because part failure doesn't happen, doesnt mean there's "no damage". Don't tell me you've never been tracked or lost engines or guns from pure strafing?
The resulting effects are actually quite different when comparing GVs and planes. We do not talk about tracked / engineless tanks. A tank still driving and shooting has apparently no damage at all.
Most strafing attacks on GVs donīt do any kind of damage. I have flown hundreds of Il2 strafing attacks vs GVs. There are countless instances where I failed to hurt a T34 or Tiger with my guns. The tank is still driving, still shooting and still has itīs tracks. A friendly tank finally engages the enemy, manages to kill it and - I got the kill credit. Without doing damage. I even got kills vs Tigers in pure MG armed fighters. I donīt think that this is fair.
And that is why I donīt strafe enemy tanks any more in presence of friendly tanks unless I have a decent chance to hurt them (Il-2 vs panzer IV ect.)
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Originally posted by Lusche
The resulting effects are actually quite different when comparing GVs and planes. We do not talk about tracked / engineless tanks. A tank still driving and shooting has apparently no damage at all.
Most strafing attacks on GVs donīt do any kind of damage. I have flown hundreds of Il2 strafing attacks vs GVs. There are countless instances where I failed to hurt a T34 or Tiger with my guns. The tank is still driving, still shooting and still has itīs tracks. A friendly tank finally engages the enemy, manages to kill it and - I got the kill credit. Without doing damage. I even got kills vs Tigers in pure MG armed fighters. I donīt think that this is fair.
And that is why I donīt strafe enemy tanks any more in presence of friendly tanks unless I have a decent chance to hurt them (Il-2 vs panzer IV ect.)
Same.
Bronk
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Only reason I chimed in was the example of 1000 .303's was incorrect in assuming that 1000 hit sprits on a tank in any way means 1000 rounds worth of damage was done.
The resulting effects are actually quite different when comparing GVs and planes. We do not talk about tracked / engineless tanks. A tank still driving and shooting has apparently no damage at all.
Sounds pretty much the same as a plane that has no appearent damage, but you shoot it down and get an assist for it.
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Yes but you can't pump a fully loaded 110 in an ac and get no visual clues.
:D
Bronk
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Originally posted by Murdr
Only reason I chimed in was the example of 1000 .303's was incorrect in assuming that 1000 hit sprits on a tank in any way means 1000 rounds worth of damage was done.
Sounds pretty much the same as a plane that has no appearent damage, but you shoot it down and get an assist for it.
You can damage a lot of components in a plane. Pilot, Guns, you can weaken the structure. And not any of that is visible.
We donīt have all that with GVs. When Tracks, engine & turret are stil fine, there is no damage at all. And no accumulation of .303 hits on a Tigerīs hull should result in a kill credit when another tank finally manages to kill that very Tiger.
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Ahh, I know why this happens. It's the tracks. They are a damageable component and can soak up a large quantity of damage from light cannon and MG which unbalances the kill awarding. I'll have to see if there's a way that HT can alter the awarding of GV kills to take that into account.
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Originally posted by Lusche
And no accumulation of .303 hits on a Tigerīs hull should result in a kill credit when another tank finally manages to kill that very Tiger.
.303's should not be able to accumulate any damage off a tiger hull, except for the turrent mg.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Sounds pretty much the same as a plane that has no appearent damage, but you shoot it down and get an assist for it.
If you hit plane with 1x7mm you do small hole and weaken structure a bit. If you hit tiger front armor with 1x7mm (12,20,30mm no matter) you do nothing at all. You dont ever deserve assist for it.
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Percentage bonus for crew compartment penetrations maybe?
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btw, not so long time ago we can kill panzer with 12mm :rolleyes:
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Yes , and I've noticed Straffing of GV's is starting to run rampant in the arenas now. rather than up a heavy a lot of players will just straffe the GV's with their planes hoping to steal the kill from their countrymen who are in Gv's or someone who actually has Ord. Pretty much sickens me to see this specially when I get bombed in my GV by enemy aircraft while they are doing it.
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Originally posted by Pyro
Ahh, I know why this happens. It's the tracks. They are a damageable component and can soak up a large quantity of damage from light cannon and MG which unbalances the kill awarding. I'll have to see if there's a way that HT can alter the awarding of GV kills to take that into account.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
TY Pyro.
Bronk
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That's what Ive been saying. There are parts on the tanks that absorb damage from gun fire. Do you guys think Im freaking stupid? Tried to tell you guys that if you hit the freaking armor it wont score damage if it fails the penetration model.
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Murdr, it was never about "actual" damage but who got the kill credit. I always knew the MGs dont do real damage, but they got you the "kill".
But anyway, it now seems the problem my see a fix in the future. TY Pyro! :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
That's what Ive been saying. There are parts on the tanks that absorb damage from gun fire. Do you guys think Im freaking stupid? Tried to tell you guys that if you hit the freaking armor it wont score damage if it fails the penetration model.
No murdr ,I think you just missed what we were getting on about.
See Lusche's post.
Bronk
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No I did not miss what you were talking about. I chimed in to correct an incorrect statment that had absolutely nothing to do with you, and you chose to pick at my accurate post.
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Interesting Pyro, hope you guys can strike a happy medium on this.
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just a question to think about.what if u unloaded a full load of a flack gun on frontal armour of tiger. in my opinion it eventually should weaken the hull enough to penetrate. even though it is h.e. it would take little bits of armour for each round.if hits were scored in a small area it should do the job.IE i was in a flack, when i came upon an afk panzer.I drove up behind him and shot him with the full load of 37's at point blank range hitting the same point should eventually pounded a hole but it did not.
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Actually, speaking for myself I only knew that sometimes I strafe a tank and I get an assist, which told me that I was doing (some at least) damage. I've never gotten a kill on a tank (that I know of) and would have probably thought it odd that I had if it didn't happen until later.
But I kinda doubt that everyone who strafes a tank is hoping to steal a kill from a more deserving player. I'll bet there are many like me who up to this point strafe them because it's there, and seemingly not paying attention to me so I can get away with it.
Grue
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Originally posted by jon
just a question to think about.what if u unloaded a full load of a flack gun on frontal armour of tiger. in my opinion it eventually should weaken the hull enough to penetrate. even though it is h.e. it would take little bits of armour for each round.if hits were scored in a small area it should do the job.IE i was in a flack, when i came upon an afk panzer.I drove up behind him and shot him with the full load of 37's at point blank range hitting the same point should eventually pounded a hole but it did not.
If you get behind a pnzr in a flak, 15 or so rounds in the gas tank will kil it. Tigers are a different story...i havnt figured out how to kil them in a flak yet but you can immobilze them by taking out tracks and/or engine.
LTARcnuk
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Looking at the constant hits in the same place issue:
If you hit a tank with a round, it checks if it penetrates the armor. If it does, it counts damage toward parts that would be impacted.
If it doesn't, it's a nocount. Nothing happens. Period.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Looking at the constant hits in the same place issue:
If you hit a tank with a round, it checks if it penetrates the armor. If it does, it counts damage toward parts that would be impacted.
If it doesn't, it's a nocount. Nothing happens. Period.
Did you read pyro's post?
Bronk
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.303's or .50cal for that matter against a Tiger tank, you might as well throw ping pong balls at it.
Now Rockets & ord's are a different matter.
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In my experience no airplane can kill a heavily armored vehicle with only it's guns, no matter what gun package it's carrying as long as the vehicle driver moves into a "safe" spot within the hull (i.e. a place where he is fully surrounded by armor plate with no vision outside through any openings in the hull).
This includes moving behind the seats in an Ostwind (or Panzer... can't remember for sure if you can get behind the seats in a Panzer) which obviously have armor plated backs or moving forward and down in a Tiger (ducking under the view port).
Light vehicles also cannot kill you while in these positions.
I've survived enemy fighter and light vehicle onslaughts doing this on many many occasions guarding a map room. My turret and/or pintle might have been out, my engine gone and I may have been tracked although I don't ever remember losing a hull gun.
The point of this being that no amount of ammo outside of ordinance or another tank shell will penetrate the armor of an Ostie, Panzer or Tiger (I haven't found the "safe" spot in a T-34 but rarely use them).
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
In my experience no airplane can kill a heavily armored vehicle with only it's guns, no matter what gun package it's carrying as long as the vehicle driver moves into a "safe" spot within the hull (i.e. a place where he is fully surrounded by armor plate with no vision outside through any openings in the hull).
This is a misconception. Your vulnerabiltity in a GV is not depending on your current position. Staying in the commanders position does not make you more vulnerable to attack. (Did you note that you never got "Pilot Wound", regardless of being protected by armor or not?)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
In my experience no airplane can kill a heavily armored vehicle with only it's guns, no matter what gun package it's carrying as long as the vehicle driver moves into a "safe" spot within the hull (i.e. a place where he is fully surrounded by armor plate with no vision outside through any openings in the hull).
This includes moving behind the seats in an Ostwind (or Panzer... can't remember for sure if you can get behind the seats in a Panzer) which obviously have armor plated backs or moving forward and down in a Tiger (ducking under the view port).
Light vehicles also cannot kill you while in these positions.
I've survived enemy fighter and light vehicle onslaughts doing this on many many occasions guarding a map room. My turret and/or pintle might have been out, my engine gone and I may have been tracked although I don't ever remember losing a hull gun.
The point of this being that no amount of ammo outside of ordinance or another tank shell will penetrate the armor of an Ostie, Panzer or Tiger (I haven't found the "safe" spot in a T-34 but rarely use them).
Care to test this against a hurri 2d vs panzer?
I am more than willing to prove that theory wrong.
Bronk
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I've seen rockets bounce off tiger
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
In my experience no airplane can kill a heavily armored vehicle with only it's guns, no matter what gun package it's carrying as long as the vehicle driver moves into a "safe" spot within the hull (i.e. a place where he is fully surrounded by armor plate with no vision outside through any openings in the hull).
This includes moving behind the seats in an Ostwind (or Panzer... can't remember for sure if you can get behind the seats in a Panzer) which obviously have armor plated backs or moving forward and down in a Tiger (ducking under the view port).
Light vehicles also cannot kill you while in these positions.
I've survived enemy fighter and light vehicle onslaughts doing this on many many occasions guarding a map room. My turret and/or pintle might have been out, my engine gone and I may have been tracked although I don't ever remember losing a hull gun.
The point of this being that no amount of ammo outside of ordinance or another tank shell will penetrate the armor of an Ostie, Panzer or Tiger (I haven't found the "safe" spot in a T-34 but rarely use them).
HT has stated before, it does not matter where in the GV you are. you cant hide.
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Originally posted by Pyro
Ahh, I know why this happens. It's the tracks. They are a damageable component and can soak up a large quantity of damage from light cannon and MG which unbalances the kill awarding. I'll have to see if there's a way that HT can alter the awarding of GV kills to take that into account.
Wow!! Much more than I expected. Thanks Pyro.
:aok
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When, if, a round of any kind penetrates a "soft spot" it doesn't just dissappear. It fragments or ricochets around the crew compartment doing damage. Another game that focuses more heavily on the ground war in WW2 models this very intricately. I believe there were many instances in RL where 50 cal did damage to PzIV and earlier models. The IV in most areas had no thicker armor than did the PzIII.
Given that the focus here is the Air War......I say the effects are modeled pretty well. But I don't know squat about coad..
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Originally posted by Bronk
Did you read pyro's post?
Yes. My post is a different subject. His is damage to tank parts. Mine is armor penetration without regard to damage; if you sit in a T-34 and plink a Tiger all day in the same spot with AP rounds, they will never penetrate.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Care to test this against a hurri 2d vs panzer?
I am more than willing to prove that theory wrong.
Bronk
Sure, I'm game.
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I was under the impression from what little I'd read that the incidents of ground attack planes damaging tanks was normally damage to the engine compartments, causing damage to the fuel delivery system and the occasional fire, not necessarily destroying the tank, but rather causing damage that could not be so easily repaired in the field while under fire. I also got the impression that taking out the support vehicles was a much simpler and more effective way of dealing with tanks, since a tank without gas or ammo is just a lawn ornament.
Anyone who has read more or knows a bit more on the subject care to chime in? I don't know the specifics of armor and penetration capabilities of the various ammo, but it seemed to make a reasonable amount of sense.
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Originally posted by Lusche
This is a misconception. Your vulnerabiltity in a GV is not depending on your current position. Staying in the commanders position does not make you more vulnerable to attack. (Did you note that you never got "Pilot Wound", regardless of being protected by armor or not?)
My experience is different then.
If I stay in the turret in an Osti I will be killed by enemy aircraft gunfire.
If I move into the hull I won't.
Turrets in Panzers and Tigers are safe from enemy gunfire as are hull guns in all three vehicles.
Maybe I'm wrong but this is how the game has played for me and I've spent 100's of hours in GV's.
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Well, I have about 6000 kills in GVs now and I did experience no difference. I always stay in commanders position when under air attack.
But as any personal experience is subjective, let me cite the man who designed this program:
Originally posted by ghi
If you are on MG position in Tiger when bomb hits, die eassy.
2 passes of concentrate cannon fire in IL2,on the same track disable the tiger,
Originally posted by hitech
This is false. It dosn't matter what postion you are in.
HiTech
That statement can be found in this thread (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173715)
(And if the driver of a GV would be a vulnerable part, you should experience a PW every now and then)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Sure, I'm game.
pm me a time you want to test this in the da.
EST
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
pm me a time you want to test this in the da.
EST
Bronk
Don't have PM active and don't have account info to change it at work. Will try to set it up when I get home but will be late tonight. I'll try to PM you once i get it set-up.
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Personally I think they should do away with assist and give the kill to the one who actually destroy's the plane or GV. Nothing more irritating than chasin down a plane or GV that has no apparant damage kill him and get an assist. HT please do away with assist, they suck.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I was under the impression from what little I'd read that the incidents of ground attack planes damaging tanks was normally damage to the engine compartments, causing damage to the fuel delivery system and the occasional fire, not necessarily destroying the tank, but rather causing damage that could not be so easily repaired in the field while under fire. I also got the impression that taking out the support vehicles was a much simpler and more effective way of dealing with tanks, since a tank without gas or ammo is just a lawn ornament.
Anyone who has read more or knows a bit more on the subject care to chime in? I don't know the specifics of armor and penetration capabilities of the various ammo, but it seemed to make a reasonable amount of sense.
I think you have covered all the basics. MG fire getting through engine grills, the occasional oddity of the hinges on a hatch getting hit so that hatch falls off and bullets rattle inside, rattling the crew so much they abandon their vehicle (suicide, really) or crash -- not too many ways to actually "kill" a late-war tank directly with MG fire, and all of them flukes or due to crew panic rather than the power of the MGs. (Halftracks, most armored cars, and thin-skined early-war tanks are, of course, a different story.)
You can do as you say and make them run out of gas, and/or jam up roads by killing soft vehicles so the armor can't move. Then the crews would again abandon the vehicles rather than be surrounded by advancing enemy troops.
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And the verdict is yes you can kill a panzer with a 2d.
No matter what position you hide in.
BaldEagl for being a good sport.
Not to mention a willing target.
Bronk
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I take it all back. Bronk and I tested my theory in the DA tonight and he killed me easily in his second pass. Me inside the hull of a Panzer, Bronk in a Hurri IID.
It had never happened to me before but I'm a believer now. Now I'd like to know if guns less than 20mm would do the same.