Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on February 05, 2007, 12:11:24 PM
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General Kenney was the commander of the 5th Air Force in the SWPA threater. He maintained a daily log which became the basis for his book published in 1949, titled General Kenney Reports. Kenny is viewed today as one of the greatest combat aviation innovators of his era.
From "General Kenney Reports"; April-May 1943. Kenney reports on the first encounter with Japanese fighters by RAAF Spitfire pilots, transferred to Darwin from Britain.
"The Australian fighter and bomber squadrons were slightly worse off than those of the Fifth Air Force. Two squadrons of Spitfire fighters, flown by Australian pilots trained in England, had arrived and were going into action at Darwin. They were a grand lot of lads but I was afraid they were in for a rude awakening. They had already hinted that with the Spitfire they would show us how to shoot down Jap airplanes the way it should be done. They were obsessed with the maneuverability of the Spitfire and had been trained in the maneuver type of combat, or “dogfighting.” That was all right in Europe as the Spitfire would outmaneuver anything the Germans had, but it was not good in the Pacific war, where the light Jap fighter outmaneuvered everything we had. I told Bladen, the Darwin commander, to warn them, but I was afraid those cocky rascals would do as they pleased until they learned the same lessons the rest of the fighter crowd
have had to learn-the hard way.
On May 2nd, twenty-one Jap bombers escorted by thirty fighters made a raid on Darwin. The Aussies intercepted with thirty-two Spitfires and knocked down five Jap fighters and one bomber. We lost thirteen Spitfires, seven of which were shot down; three landed at sea from engine failure; and three chased the Japs too far to sea and had to land in the water when they ran out of gas. Just what I had feared had happened. The Aussies had tried to outmaneuver the Nip fighters in the air. It couldn’t be done, even with the highly maneuverable Spitfire.
I sent Bostock to Darwin to talk with the kids and tell them that, if they didn’t stop that dogfighting business, I’d send them to New Guinea to serve with the Americans and learn how to fight a Jap properly. The Aussies who had been fighting the Nips for the past year or so were all sore at the Spit crowd for not taking advice. I guess they had to learn the hard way. We Americans haven’t much to say along this line, either. We hate to take advice from anyone else and seldom do."
My regards,
Widewing
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Look up "Killer" Caldwell's interceptions. He would even attack from below but stay at a high speed if it was a mix.
Do you have more material on this btw?
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And those Aussies were flying heavier Spitfire Vc Trops with the big chin scoop. Even less able to turn with a Zeke in those.
Hurri drivers learned that same lesson earlier over Burma and in the defense of Singapore.
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Good accounts of the Hurry fightings in "Hurricanes over Burma".
Once the local mods got rid of the burocracy Hurry IIB by removing fixed fuel tank, several Mg's etc, it was excellently up to the game - but not turning.
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yeah, Chennault's autobiographical accout of CBI in1941/42 says just about the same.
AFAIK Chennault's Way of a Fighter wasn't reprinted so it is hard to find, but worth looking for
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I cant remember which book it was, either Johnnie Johnsons, Wingleader or another book Sigh for a Merlin, author I cant remember, when they heard about the staggering losses of the RAAF, couldn't help but wonder whether it was to do with the Constant Speed Props, that were giving the RAF a lot of problems at that particular time.
Though more than likely, as was indicated, the pilots thought "they'd showem" how its done.
p.s. From "The Spitfire, Mustang & Kittyhawk, In Australian Service"
5 shot down, 5 ditched to fuel starvation, 3 to engine failure/propeller runaways.
6 of the 8 where recovered. An immediate rethink in tactics ensued. i.e. Dogfighting was banned.
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Widewing
When I do a search on Amazon for that title two come up
This
General Kenney Reports by George C Kenney
and this
General Kenney Reports, A Personal History of The Pacific War by George C. Kenney
Are they the same book? The price difference is huge.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Widewing
When I do a search on Amazon for that title two come up
This
General Kenney Reports by George C Kenney
and this
General Kenney Reports, A Personal History of The Pacific War by George C. Kenney
Are they the same book? The price difference is huge.
I believe these are the same book. But, don't spend a dime on either unless you want it as a collector item.
You can download a free pdf copy here: General Kenny Reports (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/gen_kenney_reports.pdf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by FTJR
I cant remember which book it was, either Johnnie Johnsons, Wingleader or another book Sigh for a Merlin, author I cant remember, when they heard about the staggering losses of the RAAF, couldn't help but wonder whether it was to do with the Constant Speed Props, that were giving the RAF a lot of problems at that particular time.
Though more than likely, as was indicated, the pilots thought "they'd showem" how its done.
p.s. From "The Spitfire, Mustang & Kittyhawk, In Australian Service"
5 shot down, 5 ditched to fuel starvation, 3 to engine failure/propeller runaways.
6 of the 8 where recovered. An immediate rethink in tactics ensued. i.e. Dogfighting was banned.
iirc, it was in Sigh for a Merlin , Neville Duke's book or the book by that guy the was played by David Niven in the movie....JEFFREY QUILL!!!1 - LOL I REMEMBARD IT:aok :aok :aok that there were a lot of Spit V problems cause the W&B stuff had changed with the new planes, but a lot of the old erks were still using Spit I W&B charts (or something like that)
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Sigh for a merlin is from Alex Henshaw, and is hard to get.
I have a book from Duke, and another one from Quill, both very good.
Test pilot and Spitfire - a test pilot's story.
Highly recommended.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I believe these are the same book. But, don't spend a dime on either unless you want it as a collector item.
You can download a free pdf copy here: General Kenny Reports (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/gen_kenney_reports.pdf)
My regards,
Widewing
I still may buy a copy. I love stuff online but at the same time never trust it. The little booklet Tommy Mcguire wrote about combat tactings in the pacific was online as well but its gone now as far as I can tell. So for this I will prolly buy the book, that way I have it forever.
Thanks for the link!!
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Originally posted by Angus
Sigh for a merlin is from Alex Henshaw, and is hard to get.
I have a book from Duke, and another one from Quill, both very good.
Test pilot and Spitfire - a test pilot's story.
Highly recommended.
i forgot to mention to you how good "Tony" Jonsson's book was:aok:aok:aok:aok:cool::cool::aok:cool::D
that good:O
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All they had to do was try this game to discover it wouldnt work :)
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Widewing
Thanks for the link, I printed that whole thing out and have not stopped reading since.
Awsome read from a General who knows his stuff.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
The little booklet Tommy Mcguire wrote about combat tactings in the pacific was online as well but its gone now as far as I can tell.
Thanks for the link!!
it's still online, just do a search for Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific and you'll find plenty of sites that have a copy. If you can't just send me a PM and I'll email you a copy.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
it's still online, just do a search for Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific and you'll find plenty of sites that have a copy. If you can't just send me a PM and I'll email you a copy.
ack-ack
Thanks
Ack, I found it again.
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Originally posted by Debonair
i forgot to mention to you how good "Tony" Jonsson's book was:aok:aok:aok:aok:cool::cool::aok:cool::D
that good:O
Good thing you liked it.
I rather found it good too, - actually very much like him in RL, modest and witty.
Anyway, popped in for a completely other reason. Does anyone of you IJN/IJAAF guys have any solid data on the a6m's roll rate?
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Originally posted by Angus
Good thing you liked it.
I rather found it good too, - actually very much like him in RL, modest and witty.
Anyway, popped in for a completely other reason. Does anyone of you IJN/IJAAF guys have any solid data on the a6m's roll rate?
Benny posted a chart that has its basis in NACA report 868, I have plugged it in below. Look carefully and you'll see the Zero at the bottom of the heap. Below the modified chart is the original from the report.
(http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/Roll%20chart.jpg)
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/NACA868RollRates.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
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Wow, always thought the P-47 roll rate was higher than that by comparison.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Wow, always thought the P-47 roll rate was higher than that by comparison.
When flying as bomber escorts, P-47s were usually flown at high speeds and high altitudes. At 400 mph, it rolls almost as fast as an Fw 190. At 450 mph, it's about dead even. Plus, the 190s suffered from greater adverse yaw. We should also note that the P-47N was a faster roller than the earlier models.
Likewise, at 400 mph, a P-47D-10 could complete two rolls in the time that a Spitfire Mk.IX used to complete one roll.
At high altitude and high speeds, where it was engineered to perform its best, the P-47 was very fast on the ailerons.
At 200 mph down on the deck, its rate of roll was merely average.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bear in mind roll rates are tied to indicated speed, not true air speed.
At 20,000ft, 400 mph true is about 290 mph indicated, and the Spitfire and P-47 have almost identical roll rates.
Normal combat speeds at altitude tend to be on the left side of that graph, which is why the AFDU concluded the normal wing Spitfire generally rolled better than the P-51, and why the Fw 190 is generally regarded to be the best roller of them all, by a considerable margin.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Bear in mind roll rates are tied to indicated speed, not true air speed.
At 20,000ft, 400 mph true is about 290 mph indicated, and the Spitfire and P-47 have almost identical roll rates.
Normal combat speeds at altitude tend to be on the left side of that graph, which is why the AFDU concluded the normal wing Spitfire generally rolled better than the P-51, and why the Fw 190 is generally regarded to be the best roller of them all, by a considerable margin.
AFDU test of P-47C vs Spitfire Mk.IX, Typhoon 1b, Mustang X and P-38F (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html)
My regards,
Widewing
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Very nice :) :aok