Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: cav58d on February 06, 2007, 08:58:56 PM
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Well this is applicable for all aircraft, but the 190 series really sticks out. How many times have you been behind someone, about to move in for a kill, and they stick stir. (Pull back on stick, full aileron and rudder deflection in same direction). Some of these insane spins, snaprolls, whatever you want to call them would be damn near impossible to recover from in RL, yet in here guys can just fly away.
How about adding a disorientation effect, or making the pilot immediately black out when he pulls one of these BS maneuvers?
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Originally posted by cav58d
Well this is applicable for all aircraft, but the 190 series really sticks out. How many times have you been behind someone, about to move in for a kill, and they stick stir. (Pull back on stick, full aileron and rudder deflection in same direction). Some of these insane spins, snaprolls, whatever you want to call them would be damn near impossible to recover from in RL, yet in here guys can just fly away.
How about adding a disorientation effect, or making the pilot immediately black out when he pulls one of these BS maneuvers?
Ermmm
Cav no need to use aileron.
Mash full left rudder pull back on stick.
Its called snap roll.
I don't think it's bs, desperate,but not bs. All thats need to get out of it is opposite stick and rudder input.
Bronk
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I see it a lot on p51s for some reason. That and negative-G outside barrel roll bs.
It gets very annoying. I open fire earlier now, helps cut down on it. I've also seen it so much I can still estimate where to shoot and hit them while they do this. Sometimes.
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Fine...Maybe the maneuver is easy to recover from, but the pilot disorientation isn't unless your sean tucker.
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Fine...Maybe the maneuver is easy to recover from, but the pilot disorientation isn't unless your sean tucker.
Works both ways cav.
What about the insane amount of Gs some of the pilots pull? They rocket down from directly above your head 5k high, reaching 500mph, squirt a few rounds, and then pull stick on the border of blackout, maintaining 5Gs for many seconds and then rinse and repeat. Spitfires entering a high speed chase, with the pilot pulling 3G to left, changing 4G to right, entering -3G maneuvering and then pulling back for +5Gs again and again and again ad nauseum.
So if pilot fatigue ro disorientation in maneuvering should be done, then it should be done to all planes at a same rate. Currently, all our AH pilots are the ideal superman, can pull up to 50pounds stick pressure at any given length of time, with any amount of frequency, on and on and on. Now imagine that's gone suddenly.
That would not only cut down on the numbers of the stick stirring folk, but it will also impact a lot of the planes in a very fundamental way.
Personally, I'm all for it. But you might get to hear a lot of whine on how the Spits or Las or Nikis can't maneuver anymore, because their pilots get to tired while pullig high-G turns.
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I guess its a double edged sword.
Another new arena for another day, right.
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Actually, snaprolls are pretty nice for evading the HO, and not as a desperation move, either.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I see it a lot on p51s for some reason. That and negative-G outside barrel roll bs.
Implement the dust and rubbish from the cockpit floor floating up into their eyes.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Fine...Maybe the maneuver is easy to recover from, but the pilot disorientation isn't unless your sean tucker.
i'd have to wager trained combat pilots got more aerobatic & upset recovery practice than the lazy8s & chandelles you did for your CPL.
in all the books i've read by pilots nowhere have i seen "after those two evasive manuvers, i was ready for a nap"
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Originally posted by cav58d
Well this is applicable for all aircraft, but the 190 series really sticks out. How many times have you been behind someone, about to move in for a kill, and they stick stir. (Pull back on stick, full aileron and rudder deflection in same direction). Some of these insane spins, snaprolls, whatever you want to call them would be damn near impossible to recover from in RL, yet in here guys can just fly away.
Dont played in Warbirds, didnt you? Image 190 with worst connection you ever see stirring his stick like mad and you will know how regular 190 with good connection flew in Warbirds. I mean, AH network code is quite good.
But i tend to agree, some improvements in stirring prevention would be welcome. It becomes far more common practice than before.
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Originally posted by Debonair
i'd have to wager trained combat pilots got more aerobatic & upset recovery practice than the lazy8s & chandelles you did for your CPL.
in all the books i've read by pilots nowhere have i seen "after those two evasive manuvers, i was ready for a nap"
Factor in also that if they lose they die and there is further motivation to struggle beyond the normal limits of an aerobatic pilot. Adrenaline can do wonders. But there are stories of exhausted pilots having to be helped out of the cockpit after missions.
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What does it mean "190 blackouts"? Are the stick stirrers a special problem to you when flying a 190 or what? Stick stirrers in 190s maybe?
-C+
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Any plane with a sufficiently high roll rate can look warpy to an adversary when it (the high roll rate) is used to maximum. 190s have the highest roll rate through a pretty wide speed range so these are the ones that get noticed the most. You don't have to "stick stir" for this to happen.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Works both ways cav.
What about the insane amount of Gs some of the pilots pull? They rocket down from directly above your head 5k high, reaching 500mph, squirt a few rounds, and then pull stick on the border of blackout, maintaining 5Gs for many seconds and then rinse and repeat. Spitfires entering a high speed chase, with the pilot pulling 3G to left, changing 4G to right, entering -3G maneuvering and then pulling back for +5Gs again and again and again ad nauseum.
So if pilot fatigue ro disorientation in maneuvering should be done, then it should be done to all planes at a same rate. Currently, all our AH pilots are the ideal superman, can pull up to 50pounds stick pressure at any given length of time, with any amount of frequency, on and on and on. Now imagine that's gone suddenly.
That would not only cut down on the numbers of the stick stirring folk, but it will also impact a lot of the planes in a very fundamental way.
Personally, I'm all for it. But you might get to hear a lot of whine on how the Spits or Las or Nikis can't maneuver anymore, because their pilots get to tired while pullig high-G turns.
I have found once you enter black out conditions a few times in a fight. They start happening with less g and last longer.
So I'll say fatigue is modeled in, to some extent.
Bronk
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Factor in the circumstances of high rate of change of G? not only positive to negative but side to side.
How about POV buffet
If G increases faster than (eg) 1 g per sec then the POV head point moves to the extreme of that point..............roll left and the POV hits the right window........ roll right and the POV hits the left window...........
Upon impact stars appear before pilots eyes and these fade after 3 secs when the POV returns to normal......................
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Better yet, make them little tweeting birds. :D
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Originally posted by Saxman
Better yet, make them little tweeting birds. :D
nice! haha
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Just for chits and giggles.
I went off line and tried doing various types of rolls. All in an FW 190 A-5.
aileron only = 1 g steady
stick and rudder = 2-3 g Probably due to the fact I cant perform them perfectly lvl.
aileron rudder = 3-4 g Plane actually cork screws and not a true roll
None of these I could see as a disorientating to a trained combat pilot.
Now I did try some negative G roll type maneuvers .
Stick forward type of stuff. All these produced red out FAST.
Once again the more of these types of moves were done . They began sooner and lasted longer .
All these moves are easily countered . Do a large barrel roll and reengage .
Doing these move the target WILL lose sight of you. Giving you ample time to set up the next pass.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Old Sport
Factor in also that if they lose they die and there is further motivation to struggle beyond the normal limits of an aerobatic pilot. Adrenaline can do wonders. But there are stories of exhausted pilots having to be helped out of the cockpit after missions.
i once almost peed in my pants after landing in Spokane
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How about POV buffet
If G increases faster than (eg) 1 g per sec then the POV head point moves to the extreme of that point..............roll left and the POV hits the right window........ roll right and the POV hits the left window...........
Upon impact stars appear before pilots eyes and these fade after 3 secs when the POV returns to normal......................
I think this idea has some real merit!
IMO it could be summarized as "increased amount/threshold of pilot head movement during change of course while extreme maenuvering". Currently, our AH pilot has a really sturdy, stiff neck... changing direction of roll left and right like mad, still doesn't amount up to the POV shaking more than just a few inches left and right. Observe the gun sight, and even with quite rough maneuvering the pilot's "gaze" is still mostly fixed on the gunsight.
If sudden, abrupt, violent change in course during maneuvering amounts up to larger changes and shifts in the POV then it'd effect both the attacker and defender. Should be interesting to see how it works out.
My guess is, from the defender's perspective, the 'stick stirring' will shake his head around very hard, and it'd might actually become very disorienting to keep exact track of your relative position in the airspace - and potentially dangerous if you are at deck.
From the attacker's perspective, I think it'd become quite more difficult to change the plane's attitude violently and land snapshots at the same time. Like, a Spit16 is chasing a Fw190, the 190 rolls 180 degrees violently to the opposite direction. If the Spit16 pilot follows the sudden roll, his head would swivel to one side, throwing off his POV, and thus the gunsight won't be visible at that moment. So he won' t be able to land a really aimed shot at the 190, until after the rolling momentum is done and his POV is once again fixed at the gunsight.
...
ps) if we go even further, I think we could ask for the 'humanistic' POV to be implemented in AH as well.
This POV can be seen in 1C's IL2 series when you are not flying at the "gunsight view" mode. The 'gunsight view' sort of 'mechanically' locks the pilots neck at the gunsight - feels exactly the same as AH POV. However, when it is turned off the pilots neck moves around in accordance to the attitude of your plane in flight. Violent maneuvering shifts the POV around a lot, gentle maneuvering shifts the POV very little. You can see this by looking at the gunsight and how it 'floats around' wildly when you maneuver hard, but moves around only subtly when you maneuver gentle.
If for anything, this implementation would probably help people understand why hitting maneuvering planes were so hard in WW2.
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Just for chits and giggles.
I went off line and tried doing various types of rolls. All in an FW 190 A-5.
aileron only = 1 g steady
stick and rudder = 2-3 g Probably due to the fact I cant perform them perfectly lvl.
aileron rudder = 3-4 g Plane actually cork screws and not a true roll
None of these I could see as a disorientating to a trained combat pilot.
The question is what would have happened if the pilot did all of those moves in random order, alternating left to right, at a pace of less than 5 seconds for all three maneuvers, and kept doing those move at that rate for over 30 seconds straight in what AH gamers affectionately referr to as "stick stirring"?
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Also something else I noticed .
If you move sick left to right at a moderate pace guess what happens ?
The piper moves about in the sight glass. So I guess head movement is modeled.
The question is what would have happened if the pilot did all of those moves in random order, alternating left to right, at a pace of less than 5 seconds for all three maneuvers, and kept doing those move at that rate for over 30 seconds straight in what AH gamers affectionately referr to as "stick stirring"?
I'd guess 1 of 2 things would happen.
1. "don't move stick rapidly" deal
2. The pilot would lose so much air speed it would be basically helpless.
These moves are IMHO opinion last ditch or when you catch the attacker at the last sec moves.
I also believe a lot of snap rolls appear as stick stir due to smoothing code.
Kweassa now a question for you.
Have you ever seen an aerobatics demonstration?
I have seen more violent moves pulled one after the other at air shows.
All one after the other.
Bronk
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Have you ever seen an aerobatics demonstration?
I have seen more violent moves pulled one after the other at air shows.
How many of those violent moves you saw were pulled off by a 10,000-pound warplane with 1,800hp worth of engine power while travelling at 300 miles per hour at 500ft altitude?
Besides, stunt flights are choreographed. The pilots use the same basic patterns and routines over and over again. Fighter pilots are trained to respond to a variety of situations, but real combat is something entirely different from repetition of pre-arranged stunt routines.
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4g is 4g, it doesn't care if you're in the shuttle or an RV8.
Excessive G has the same effect on the human body.
Bronk
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Try being punched in the belly as you know the punch is coming, and then being punched again totally unexpectedly.
Besides, aside from the controversial 'fatigue', the 'disorientation' as Tilt mentioned in his suggestion isn't exactly something it one can train to ignore. A pilot may be trained to not succumb into the queasy effects of disorientation and recover quickly from it when it ends, but that doesn't mean he can keep his neck stiff and POV locked to the gunsight as his 190 rolls in alternations of left and right in 1 second intervals.
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Originally posted by Bronk
4g is 4g, it doesn't care if you're in the shuttle or an RV8.
Excessive G has the same effect on the human body.
Bronk
1G is 1G but I guess the Kweassa meant the situation.
Continuous high G maneuvers at low alt:
- well practiced aerobatic ROUTINE with extreme lightweight specialized sport plane front of the OooAaaaing people.
or
-eye-to-eye with enemy fighter, behind the lines in 10000lsb fighter plane, loaded with gas and ammunition while ground fire trackers are passing left and right.
The G's are much more 'heavier' in last scenario.
(edit)
BTW
The control forces in different situations is something what we don't need to worry.
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stick stirring sux,, I mean sit still so I can hit you!!!!!!sheeesh
no,? dont we sound a little silly?, if your flying a 190 mustang is meat on the deck, use those 500 cannon rounds to stop his stirring perminatly, well for that sortie anyway.....
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I was trying to focus on the rate of change of g............
We know that pilots can tolerate various levels of g..........
However whilst G is the product of linear or radial acceleration it also has a rate of increase & decrease that can tests the pilots ability to compensate.
Exagerating to make a point............
We can be certain that in roll a pilot could compensate a g force of 4g.
But what if his manouvre was so violent as to incur a shift from 0 to 4g in half a second?
Would he so intuitively be able to resist it? I think not.
Now consider flip rolls we have a 4 g rolling manouvre in one direction and we reverse to a 4 g rolling manouvre in another............
G force may never have exceeded 4 g but infact have transitioned from a clock wise to anticlockwise shift in much less than a second.
I would suggest that the POV could move violently during such manouvres and possibly if such manouvres were sustained that the kneck muscles would not be able to sustain such reversals beyond a few seconds. Indeed of course in RL they would not be sustained....the weakoned pilot would instinctively temper his manouvres agianst his ability to avoid smashing his head around the cockpit.
I read above anecdotal summaries regarding the abilities of acrobatic pilots and experienced fighter pilots to with stand various complex high G manouvres.
Even conceding these points I would advise folk to watch the in cockpit video shots of pilots during the Red Bull air racing competitions......... here you will see high speed high g reversing manouvres executed by the best of pilots knowing exactly what they are about to do and how they must compensate. However equally you will see these pilots that are harnessed to a level greater than an average WWII pilot suffer violent head movement in some reversing manouvres whilst able to "hold steady" under sustained higher G manouvres.
I am equally reminded that F1 drivers wire their helmets to their shoulder pads to help resist the same effect (although this is a two dimensional problem in an F1 car)
Hence to summarise its not about G force alone its a consideration of the rate of change in G force when under violent manouvring
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Thanks Tilt, you've nailed in on the proverbial head (!).
What you've summarized was exactly the point I was trying to make, were it not for my limited brain/mouth coordination.
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How can you create 4Gs in a roll? :huh
Or is it a 4G barrel roll?
I don't think you can intentionally create 4G sideways acceleration in an aircraft -thus the race car example is not valid either.
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
How can you create 4Gs in a roll? :huh
Or is it a 4G barrel roll?
I don't think you can intentionally create 4G sideways acceleration in an aircraft -thus the race car example is not valid either.
-C+
With a simple aileron roll none is.
In my examples given I stated I couldn't do snap rolls perfect. Since I'm pulling back on the stick and adding rudder. I'm guessing there is a bit of up added to my rolls.
With the aileron rudder roll It looks more like a very tight barrel roll. So G is produced the most.
As to the 4g latterly , no idea. But I bet 38's and hogs produce quite a bit with their rudder arrangements.
Bronk
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I get more annoyed with the infamous "spit flop"...you know, where the
300 mph spit 16 sees you 600 on his 6 and pulls what looks like 12Gs into
the pure vertical.
I wouldn't mind it so much if from that moment on the spit view would
be stuck in max zoom forward due to the forehead being inbedded in the
reflector glass :D
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Originally posted by Rino
I get more annoyed with the infamous "spit flop"...you know, where the
300 mph spit 16 sees you 600 on his 6 and pulls what looks like 12Gs into
the pure vertical.
I wouldn't mind it so much if from that moment on the spit view would
be stuck in max zoom forward due to the forehead being inbedded in the
reflector glass :D
If he is pulling +g ,wouldn't his head be pushed into the headrest?
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
I see it a lot on p51s for some reason. That and negative-G outside barrel roll bs.
It gets very annoying. I open fire earlier now, helps cut down on it. I've also seen it so much I can still estimate where to shoot and hit them while they do this. Sometimes.
I wish I could remember the pilot's name, but there was at least one ace who used the outside barrel roll to evade and reverse. He described it as enduring the unendurable red out, then recovering to make the kill.
Stick stirring, however, is maddening. It's all some guys have though...the good news is that you reel them in, even if they have a faster plane by centering on the stupid maneuvering and finally getting a shot.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Fine...Maybe the maneuver is easy to recover from, but the pilot disorientation isn't unless your sean tucker.
Or Ozzie Osborne Ooooooohhhhh:rofl