Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: IntIron on February 10, 2007, 11:19:30 AM
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Alright,
So, we have a decent assortment of US, German, Japanese, and Soviet planes. How about at least 4 Italian models to choose from?
The other two Italian planes I would like to see added to the arena are:
Reggiane Re.2005(Fighter)
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79(Bomber)
Both planes saw action(Although only about 750 of the Re.2005's were built) and a generally fairly decent planes. The SM.79 is to the Italians what the Spitfire is the Brits, so I think it would be a decent addition to the game.
Your friendly flyer,
Bill
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i would like the g55 centauro. best italian fighter of war. but there was a problem, only about a 100 were produce b4 armistice. but the centauro holds 3x 20mm, and 2x 13mm (or so i heard).
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I agree with titanic3 on this one. The G.55 was the best. About 130 completed version saw operational status before armistice. Was favored and considered better than any other German Bf109G's. A lightly perked plane. Good buff interceptor. A treat for Luffenwobble pilots as well as addition to Italian plane set.
Not too hard a sell, only 315 N1K2's produced, and we see how prevalent they are in LW arenas!! Besides, "The Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario was an Italian monoplane fighter/fighter-bomber for the Regia Aeronautica during the later parts of World War II. Only thirty-seven were built.." The G.55 was produced and exported after the war. The Re.2005 was not.
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero (Italian: sparrowhawk): If I was arguing for another EW bomber, this would be a good choice. Problem is, buff pilots need a second perk-worthy ride added. Since plane additions are so few and far between, I don't think I'd argue for an EW bomber before buff pilots got another perk ride, and you'll have plenty of argument from He-111 fans for an EW bomber.
Been argued in other threads: Thread Link (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197963)
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I wouldn't quote that number. So far the only reference I've seen quote that is Wikipedia. I've seen other webpages quote it, but saying they got it from wiki. I know there must be some reason somebody put that on wiki in the first place, but wiki's got numbers horribly wrong in the past (all user-submitted data, rememer?)
A non-wiki site has the following to say:
Deliveries of the G55 to the 53rd Stormo and the 353rd Squadriglia of the 20th Gruppo just started when Italy surrendered to the Allies on September 8, 1943. Because of Italy's surrender, the G55 did not see combat with the Regia Aeronautica. However, factories which were building the G55's were still under the control of the Republica Sociale Italiana (Salo Republic) in northern Italy, and several thousand were ordered. The G55 became the RSI's standard aircraft for their air force. Shortages began to develope as the DB 605 A-1 engines became scarce and only 105 FIAT G55's were produced by the time the Allies overran all of Italy.
Only about 100 made, but we know from other sources (even wiki) that many sat undelivered at the factories. There were probably less than 50 in service, or less.
Hey, I'd LOVE this plane, just trying to clarify the history a bit :p
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Cant Z1007 (where's Brady?) :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
....Hey, I'd LOVE this plane, just trying to clarify the history a bit :p
just to further clarify, the rest of that website says subsequent to the 105 mentioned a lot more G.55s were built before the end of the war, including a 5 cannon bird:eek::eek:and a torpedo carrying version:cool:
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No it says no such thing. [edit: I mean it mentions those types, but not that more were made]
http://www.comandosupremo.com/G55.html
It says "Other models developed based on the G55 which were the G55/II with 5 20mm cannons and the G55/S Torpedo Fighter, which carried one 2,176 lb Whitehead fiume torpedo beneath the fuselage. Both of these variations of the G55 flew in 1944."
Then it talks about post-war production. It says up to the allied over-running of Italy (that's after the surrender in 1943, that's all the way at the end of the war) only 105 had been produced (total).
EDIT: I don't have the book in question:
War Planes of the Second World War. Fighters; Volume Two: Author William Green. Hanover House: Garden City, New York. 1961
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Actually, the Wiki info on the G.55 seemed to have been copied directly from a book or magazine article about the Centauro, but I take Krusty's point about mis-information from Wiki.
Another site however states that the G.55 *did* see combat:
Before the armistice of September 1943, G.55s had participated in the defence of Rome with the 353a Squadriglia of the Regia Aeronautica. The postarmistice operations were rnamly with the Fascist air arm's Squadriglia 'Montefusco', based at Venezia Reale, then with the three squadriglie which formed the 2� Gruppo Caccia Terrestre, but losses were heavy, as a result mainly of Allied attacks on the airfields.
http://avia.russian.ee/air/italy/fiat_centauro.php (http://avia.russian.ee/air/italy/fiat_centauro.php)
Of course, part of the problem is the accuracy of the information and documents from a country that was being bombed and beaten by an allied push, resources being seized by occupying Germans, and the fog and confusion of war.
Were there many? No. Did they engage in combat? I believe they did in limited numbers --- but then, so did the N1K2. Argue that the N1K2 also cover the N1K1's?... fine, G.55 can cover the G.50's.
All things considered, I think the G.55 would be a valid edition to the game. It would be a sweet little nich ride. Not another German, American, or English plane. A nice bomber interceptor. Good enough a plane to be exported after the war. Just an opinion.
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Oh, to be sure they saw combat. I wasn't arguing that point. I was going on about numbers, only :)
EDIT: Oh and just looked, turns out I own a book with some info on the G.55. According to Gunston (not the best, but still decent) only 105 were made, as well.
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Betting 105 may be completed during the war number. Or delivered. Or went operational. A lot of nearly finish ones were captured, or waiting to be delivered, or probably finished after armistice and were among those exported after the war (up until 1948).
So, numbers will vary. Operational, delivered, finished, uncompleted models, plus those that were destroyed on the ground at the factories and marshaling fields.
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Actually I'm betting the exact opposite. I'm betting that's the total and a large portion of that was captured at the factories before they could be delivered.
Keep in mind it was a scarce airplane.
When they talk about Me262s they say 1400 produced (or whatever) but only 800 ever got to units. When they talk about the Ta152 they say 80 produced, but only 12 saw action. When they talk about He162s, they say 300 produced but only 2 units were equipped with them (and maybe a Hitler Youth group, there's some reference to this, but precious documentation as they were burning paperwork at the time).
So when they say 105 produced I'm taking that as "were counted as finished at the factory" and whether they ever got shipped from the factory is another matter.
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who cares it was a ww2 bird add it
along with the "FRENCH" d.520
french have no birds
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here is G.55/S in RSI markings
(http://www.giemmesesto.org/images/aerei/FiatG55s/02G55Slonatepozzolovistalaterale.jpg)
kick bellybutton torpedo figher:O:aok :aok :aok :aok:cool: :cool: :cool:
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I found the number built via this link: http://www.answers.com/topic/reggiane-re-2005. I accidentally read number ordered(750) as opposed to those built:37.
Sorry about the mistake.
Your friendly aviator,
Bill
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Originally posted by TwinBoom
who cares it was a ww2 bird add it
along with the "FRENCH" d.520
french have no birds
Probably because they fell so quickly, and were deemed inferior. The one plane that was actually up to standards (d.520) was the minority plane, and captured versions of it were only deemed fit as advanced trainers for LW pilots that were going to transition to the Me109.
I'm not denying the fighting spirit of the french pilots, but the invasion of france was very much a ground war (and over almost instantly).
The French aircraft served no purpose in the war, when you consider the war as a whole. It's like the Polish resistance. It was THERE, and people fought and died, but for the most part it was an ant under the wheel of the Nazi war machine.
I don't see a place for french planes in this game, at this time.
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Paris just called. They are trying to figure out to whom on these boards they can surrender to.
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/sign0181.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
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they can surrender to all ppl playing AH lol
Sacre Blu! (not sure if i spelled right)
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You pplz keep mentioning numbers produced as if its a limiting factor for involvement in this game... do yourself a favor crunch the numbers on how many ostiwinds where produced and involved in combat.
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It doesn't matter what we already have, or WHY we have it (and some are in there not because they're common, but because they needed to be competitive in early AH1 days).
It does matter what we get in the future, and WHY we get it.
You really can't account for the choices made over 5 years ago when AH came out. You CAN account for the new choices made now, and in the future.
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no YOU cant.. you cant decide jack squat about what is IN or isnt IN this game Krusty. You have exactally as much power here as a numbers person actually according to HTC's rules of input if i recall us multi year vets have very little input.
All we do here is speculate and at some small level satisfy our unheaded pleads for aircraft we will never see.
On that note we need the B-29 :)
Krusty the WWII expert
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IMHO -
The Re.2005 and G.55 are very close in performance to the C.205, so I'm not sure we'd gain much having these added. They all use the same engine (a DB605 clone) and other than having a bit more armament (an extra 20mm and the ability to carry bombs) I'm not sure there would be much to gain from all the modeling effort.
The SM.79 might be interesting to play with if we had the right variant. The early war models would be easy meat, but there were some later variants with more powerful engines and a forward firing 20mm cannon. The SM.79 was supposedly unparalled as a torpedo bomber (think JU88s on steroids). Again, I'm not sure we'd gain much from all the modeling effort that would be required.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Eagle, the G.55 would have more cannons, more ammo, and have a better performance above 15k (where a lot of the bombers were).
"skycaptn" you're simply not seeing the point. I'm not saying I have any control over their decisions. I'm saying YOU don't understand that the reasons they MAKE decisions can change. The problem lies not on my end for your lack of comprehension.
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Krusty, you get 1 more 20mm cannon, and a higher service ceiling in the G.55 vs the C.205 (41K vs 37K), but other than that the difference looks to be pretty small. The "extra ammo" I expect is from the 3rd 20mm cannon since you get 200 rnds in each of the wing mounted cannons on the C.205
The C.205 is a bit faster (399 vs 391 mph), but that might be the result of the extra weight. Both rides are using the same engine - a Fiat RA.1050 RC58, which is a clone of the DB605A-1. The G.55 has the greater wingspan, so I expect you are right about the high altitude performance, but the climb performance I am reading about leaves a bit to be desired (6000m in 7 min, 12 sec / under 3K ft/min which I know I can beat in the 205).
I'll try it out if is shows up, but there are probably much better rides out there to spend the modeling time on.
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The DB605 engine was quite powerful. I think it'd climb better than 3k fpm. Hell the C205 does over 4k fpm below 5,000 feet alt.
It's a bit heavier, but the weapons are internal so there's not any additional drag (unlike 109 gondolas -- probably one major reason LW pilots loved it). The wing guns would have 250 rpg and the hub I have read also had 250rpg.
50% more firepower and it doesn't run out before the other guns. I'd call that a big improvement against any target :)
I don't know much about the performance, the climb the weight etc, but I think the big wing and the other subtle differences meant it could turn better than the C2 and it was more stable while turning.
I wonder if it had longer range than the C2?
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Slightly longer range for the G.55 - 746 miles on internal fuel vs 646 for the C.205 Re.2005 is like 786 miles on internal fuel.
I wonder if they had different blower gears or something for the motor for better high-altitude performance. I also wonder what octane fuel the Italians used and if they had a high-octane fuel for high-altitude.
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Considering the time they were produced I'd say they were using B2 fuel (about 90 octane??). The engine might have been geared for higher alt, yes, as different 109s had different gearings.
If not then it might just have been a bit of streamlining, making the airframe less draggy at higher alt = more speed, maybe.
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no wai:eek: :eek: drag changes with altit00ds? no wondar roflcopers only fly low:noid:noid:noid
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I mean it's more streamlined, period. And this means at higher alts it'll be faster (where the air is less dense). It was just a guess.
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The G.55 has a larger span and more wing area than the C.205, so I think we'd be seeing differences more along the lines of the difference between the 190D9 and the TA152. From what I'm reading the G.55 has a slightly higher wing area than the Re.2005 as well.
Hey, if they show up, I'll try 'em. I try to fly axis rides a lot just because I think they are harder to master and be successful in - having a few new ones available wouldn't bother me any.
EagleDNY
$.02
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once again krusty ur wrong on the d520 it was a remarkable plane
they were defeted simply due to skill and quantity of the luftwaffe
a german late war arena horde if you will
but it was a very important part of ww2 and if it was crap as u put it the germans woulda just scraped them or destroyed them
but they were used as trainers by the germans
secondly they saw much action with other countries and the
french freedom fighters so in closing
add it and the g55 if nothing else but for scenerios and early and mid war
arenas to fill the large gaps in inventory
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The D.520 wasn't exported. None were transfered before the armistice, as the French were fully defeated as a government, and part of the amistice included turning over all military weapons to Germany.
So I doubt D.520s served "in other countries" with "freedom fighters" as you put it. Even if the pilots could go fly for other people, the aircraft were turned over to Germany lock stock and barrel.
Before the armistice a Hurr1 pilot was doing a recon mission or patrol over the French coast. He notes seeing a flight of 5 of the new Dewoitines coming and attacking him. They mistook him for German. Regardless he was easily able to lose all 5 in his Hurr1 by zooming and climbing above them.
Doesn't say too much for its performance if a Hurricane Mk1 can do this.
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The Dewoitine D.520 was a French fighter aircraft that entered service in early 1940, shortly after the opening of World War II. Unlike the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406, which was at that time the Armée de l'Air's most numerous fighter, the Dewoitine D.520 came close to being a match for the latest German types, such as the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Because of a delayed production cycle, only a small number were available to meet the Luftwaffe.
Battle of France
The Groupe de Chasse I/3 was the first unit to get the D.520, receiving its first planes in January of 1940. These were unarmed and used for training. In April and May they received 34 production machines, which proved to be very popular with the pilots. In tests against a captured Bf 109E-3 (which didn't develop full power) the D.520 proved to be 20 km/h slower, but had better high speed manoeuvrability. The D.520 matched the turning circle of the Bf 109 but displayed nasty departure characteristics, spinning out of the turn repeatedly during the tests while the Bf 109 owing to its slats could sustain the turn on the edge of the stall easily.
When Germany invaded France and the Low Countries on May 10, 228 D.520s had been manufactured, but the Armée de l'Air had only accepted 75, as most others had been sent back to the factory to be retrofitted to the new standard. As a result, only GC I/3 was fully equipped with the D.520, with 36 planes. They met the Luftwaffe on May 13, shooting down three Henschel Hs 126s and one Heinkel He 111 without loss. GC II/3, GC III/3, GC III/6 and GC II/7 later completed their conversion to the D.520 and all took part in the Battle of France. A naval unit, the 1st Flotille de Chasse, was also equipped with the D.520. GC II/6 and GC III/7 converted to the D.520 but too late to see action.
By the time of the armistice at the end of June, 437 D.520's had been built and 351 of these had been delivered. In that time they had 108 confirmed kills and 39 probables, losing 54 to enemy action. As French resistance collapsed in the middle of June, GC I/3, II/3, III/3, III/6 and II/7 flew their aircraft to Algeria. Three more, from GC III/7, escaped to Britain and 153 machines remained in France.
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Under Vichy
In April 1941 production was started again and in June, 550 were ordered to replace all other single-seat fighters. The plan was to have the D.520 eventually equip a total of 17 Groupes with 442 aircraft, three Aéronavale escadrilles with 37 aircraft each plus 3 training units with 13 aircraft. As per terms of the Armistice with Germany, all improvements were prohibited and planes of the new batch were similar with the ones manufactured one year earlier.
D.520s of GC III/6, II/3 and naval escadrille 1AC faced the allies during the Syria-Lebanon campaign in 1941, where they claimed 31 kills over British and Australian planes, while losing 11 of their own in air combat and 24 to AAA, accidents, and attacks on their airfields.
During Operation Torch, GC III/3 (who was really GC I/3 renamed, as the previous unit with this designation had been disbanded) opposed the Allies over Oran, while Flottile 1F saw some action versus the US Navy over Casablanca. Many planes were destroyed on the ground.
Late and postwar service
In December 1942, as French forces formerly under Vichy had sided with the Allies, there were 153 D.520s left in French hands in North Africa. They flew a few patrols during the Battle of Tunisia, but were considered obsolete, and their radio sets were incompatible with Allied equipment. From early 1943 on, they were relegated to training duties at the fighter school in Meknes, and progressively replaced by Spitfires and P-39s in combat units.
During the liberation of France, a few examples abandoned by the Germans were used by ad hoc units in ground attacks against the isolated German pockets of resistance on the Western coast.
Postwar, those that remained in France were used as trainers, serving in this role until 1953.
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Foreign users
As the German forces invaded Vichy's so-called "free zone" in November 1942, they captured 246 D.520s; additionally, a new batch of 130 was built under German occupation. Some were used by the Luftwaffe for training purposes. The Germans also transferred 120 D.520s to Bulgaria and 60 to Italy.
Operators
Bulgaria
France
Germany: Luftwaffe
Italy
Specifications (Dewoitine D.520C.1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 8.6 m (28 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 10.2 m (33 ft 6 in)
Height: 2.57 m (8 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 15.97 m² (172 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,036 kg (4,489 lb)
Loaded weight: 2,676 kg (5,900 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 2,780 kg (6,129 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45 liquid-cooled V12 engine, 690 kW (930 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 535 km/h (289 knots, 332 mph)
Range: 1,250 km (675 nm, 777 mi)
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.3 m/s (2,820 ft/min)
Wing loading: 167 kg/m² (34.2 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 257 W/kg (0.156 hp/lb)
Armament
Guns:
1× 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon
4× 7.5 mm (0.295 in) machine guns
References
Danel, R.; Cuny, J.. Docavia n°4: le Dewoitine D.520. Editions Larivière.
Ehrengardt, C. (2004). Les avions français au combat: le Dewoitine D.520. Aéro-Editions.
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I still want my Fiat Cr.42
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KU prepare for krusty`s non-sense excuse why it wont be added lol
sweet plane like this :)
(http://www.jg2.de/skins/images/cr-42.jpg)