Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on February 10, 2007, 01:04:33 PM
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from an artical in CNN where puten is discussing how the US use of force across the world motivates rogue nations efforts to aquire nuclear weapons capabilities:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/10/putin.us.ap/index.html
And its not that I disagree with the dictator from Russia, because I think the US role in the world needs to be thoroughly reviewed and revised, but this one qoute really shows his true colors....
"This is very dangerous, nobody feels secure anymore because nobody can hide behind international law," Putin told the gathering.
I would take notice of the word "hide" in the above quote.
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When the US fades into impotence who will stand against communism/socialism/facism?
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"Hide"... Looking for this quote in Russian media. Probably translation fault, in Russian this phrase sounds silly.
Calling Putin a "dictator" is... hmmm...
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Originally posted by lukster
When the US fades into impotence who will stand against communism/socialism/facism?
....Nobody? :eek:
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I was wondering if it might not be a translation error.....seems too obvious.
Dictator? Well, Not really. But its worth watching to see how he steps down from leading Russia, what his role will be after he leaves office and who replaces him.
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http://www.mezhdunarodnik.ru/news/text-4979.html?print_version=tr - link in Russian. He said that noone feels secure now, noone can hide behind international law (justice) as behind a stone wall, use of force feeds a new arms race. Force domination makes nations seek for posession of WMD to protect them.
I don't care about what he'll do after 2008. There will be another "leader" following the same policy of national surrender and destruction :( At least he's not on the salary from Washington Party Commeetee as Yeltsin was, but he can't move any further then declarations like that one. All attempts for independant foreign policy are aimed at protecting privately-owned monopolies, controlled by a handfull of crooks :( Gazprom profits or another soccer team bought by Abramovich don't make me live any better.
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Originally posted by Boroda
....Nobody? :eek:
Well, there will be local opposition to the three isims should they be forced upon a people that do not want to embrace them but from what we've seen in the past of communism and socialism (nazis), resistance may become futile.
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Putin will catch a cold and die in a Kiosk outside of Kiev while on vacation.
Mother Russia will play glorious ballads for 3 days while exclaming how great of a Leader he was. There will be parades.
That's the Russian way right Boroda?
Bury him next to the Sailors of the Kursk. So that they may now have Peace.
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
Putin will catch a cold and die in a Kiosk outside of Kiev while on vacation.
Mother Russia will play glorious ballads for 3 days while exclaming how great of a Leader he was. There will be parades.
That's the Russian way right Boroda?
I don't know. He'll outlive most of us, no doubt. Kiev is not in Russia.
Originally posted by AWMac
Bury him next to the Sailors of the Kursk. So that they may now have Peace.
I only hope that Gorby and Yeltsin won't be buried at the Red Square next to Stalin. 90% of Russians will want to piss on their graves.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I don't know. He'll outlive most of us, no doubt. Kiev is not in Russia.
I only hope that Gorby and Yeltsin won't be buried at the Red Square next to Stalin. 90% of Russians will want to piss on their graves.
Are you saying you don't want them pissing so close to the butcher's grave?
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Originally posted by lukster
Are you saying you don't want them pissing so close to the butcher's grave?
Butcher's?
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Boroda if we send Jane Fonda there can she catch a cold?
;)
Mac
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Originally posted by Boroda
"Hide"... Looking for this quote in Russian media. Probably translation fault, in Russian this phrase sounds silly.
Calling Putin a "dictator" is... hmmm...
OK if he isnt or hasnt strongly moved in that direction.
What is he then?
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Originally posted by AWMac
Boroda if we send Jane Fonda there can she catch a cold?
;)
All Polonium was spent on Litvinenko :D So I think she'll be allowed to catch a cold, she didn't get a sun-stroke in Vietnam, did she? ;)
There was a great Soviet-Vietnamese movie made in 1985 IIRC, "Coordinates of Death", with an American actress visiting Haifon and an American pilot captured by Vietnamese alive (!!!) speaking on a press-conference about US war crimes...
I don't like what you guys did in Vietnam, and in many other places, but behaving like ms. Fonda is definetly inappropriate. We have got enough such political prostitutes here after Gorby, praising creatures killing us.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
OK if he isnt or hasnt strongly moved in that direction.
What is he then?
I said it 6 years ago here. He wants to be like Stalin, but lacks class. I mean - like Stalin who created a world's strongest power out of an illiterate "risky agriculture" country in 10 years.
He is another puppet caught by olygocracy. Russian nation genocide, monopoly support, killing industry and hi-tech production - it's what we can see behind the "imperial revenge" rhethorics. It's what you will never see in the news.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I said it 6 years ago here. He wants to be like Stalin, but lacks class. I mean - like Stalin who created a world's strongest power out of an illiterate "risky agriculture" country in 10 years.
He is another puppet caught by olygocracy. Russian nation genocide, monopoly support, killing industry and hi-tech production - it's what we can see behind the "imperial revenge" rhethorics. It's what you will never see in the news.
and Stalin wasnt a dictator??
Yes its astounding what one can accomplish in 10 years when you hold a gun to the back of peoples heads and prove you are willing to use it against anyone who disagrees with you LMAO
---EDIT--
Show you are more then willing to use it against anyone you even THINK dissagrees with you
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
and Stalin wasnt a dictator??
Yes its astounding what one can accomplish in 10 years when you hold a gun to the back of peoples heads and prove you are willing to use it against anyone who disagrees with you LMAO
You exaggerate. And if he didn't do what he did - all Soviet people could be genocided by nazis after 1941 or by you guys after 1945. 1949 was a real dead-line for a bomb.
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
---EDIT--
Show you are more then willing to use it against anyone you even THINK dissagrees with you
As if it was not like that in the US...
Unfortunately, history proved that JVS was right :(
My own family suffered at that times, but at least I am alive.
1927: less then 10% of the population is able to read.
1937: developed industry, millions of engineers.
Miracle.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Butcher's?
Yeah, this guy: http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3058571.html
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Originally posted by lukster
Yeah, this guy: http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3058571.html
"Fifty years ago, on March 5, 1953, Josef Vissarionovich Stalin died. One of the world’s great genocidists, comparable to Adolf Hitler not only as a mass killer but also as an anti-Semite, Stalin was preparing a large-scale pogrom, the outgrowth of what is today known as the “doctor’s plot.”"
Outrageous lie. Next, please.
Calling JVS an anti-semite is a fantastic stupidity. Please try to employ your brain instead of quoting "hoover-dot-org". Why not "McCarthey-dot-com"?
Great genocidist my ass.
Let's better get back to discussing our beloved pale moth, eh?
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imop, Putin is right, and high class diplomat, He said it in polite way, not like Hugo Chavez,
Last year the starving primitive peoples of N.Corea built a nuke, few weeks ago chinesse shot down a satelite and Iran goes atomic next, or maybe already has them, and all of this cuz of bully american threats to nations that have nothing to do with 9/11,
imop a President should be a diplomat, should know to negociate, even with enemy, not just puke words and threats
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what is this "beloved pale moth"? that could be the title of a really cool song :aok
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I agree, he's right, WMD is the only refuge from "democratisation".
Zarin is cheaper then nukes and more effective in a battlefield. Nukes are only a terror weapon, mostly usefull against cities. Strange game: controlled media makes a scarecrow out of nukes, and then we have a positive feedback: radiophobia and scare of nukes that are mostly useless if owned by countries like DPRK. All by so-called "public opinion" that is simulated by big media corporations. Uroboros, a snake byting it's tail. So-called "democracy" Western style completely lost it's purpose. Totalitarism roxxor. At least it's honest.
Someone has to say that "We, all as one!"... Or wonder who's closer to this stage - West or East. Looks like East, led by Iran is more flexible and effective. Funny that Western leaders don't understand that Russia is in the same boat with them.
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Originally posted by Yeager
what is this "beloved pale moth"? that could be the title of a really cool song :aok
Comrade Putin.
Put In. Poo-Teen.
Put' means "way, road, route, way of reaching something" in Russian. unfortunately this way leads to nothing. A big mountain again gave birth to a ridiculous mouse (sorry - i can't remember a correct Latin spelling for this phrase).
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Boroda, ask the Ukrainians what they think of good old comerade Iosof Vissarionovich. He killed more of them than Hitler did Jews.
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Originally posted by Viking
Boroda, ask the Ukrainians what they think of good old comerade Iosof Vissarionovich. He killed more of them than Hitler did Jews.
I am half-Ukrainian myself. I don't think that we are two different nations.
My Grand-Uncle died in 1933 working in the country, typhus :( He just graduated from Dniepropetrovsk Mining institute.
Mu Granny told me a lot about "gladomor". How they had to keep their cow in a house at night and so on.
Q: Why do you think Stalin wanted to starve the second most important nation in the Union? The mainstay of Soviet Power? Was he insane?
NB: Millions of Russians died in 1932-33 at Volga region. No rain, bad harvest. Noone cares. Last mass starvation happened in USSR in 1947. Before the Revolution such things happened every 3-4 years, and noone gave a flying ****. Only Bloody Bolsheviks (tm) stopped it.
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Would someone enlighten me about this genocide(tm) by Uncle Stalin....
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You may be half Ukrainian by birth Boroda, but you're all Russian in mind. The Ukrainians sure think they're a separate country. As for Stalin … yeah he was insane. His most notable psychosis was extreme paranoia. Many people, especially military officers and high-ranking party members paid with their lives to satisfy his irrational fears.
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Ripsnorted:
The Kulak purges marked the beginning of the genocide in the Ukraine, but a series of developments was still to occur before the worst of the genocide, the famine, was to begin. The purges reignited the nationalism in the Ukraine that had been brutally crushed by Lenin 10 years earlier. It also instilled a deep fear of the Soviet government and any decree it sent out (History Place). The combination of these two things did not serve well for Stalin when, shortly after the Kulak purges, he announced his goal of collectivization. This policy called for the end of all private farms, and the construction of group farms under strict state control. Stalin began collectivization as a voluntary activity, expecting people to flock to one of the main ideals of Communism. He was greatly mistaken: only 4% of the empire's farmland had been brought under state control by 1929. At this time Stalin ordered the forced collectivization of all farmland (the History Channel). A massive propaganda campaign was launched by Soviet authorities, but to no avail. When words proved to be an ineffective weapon, they were replaced by guns. The GPU (Stalin's secret police; predecessors to the KGB) was sent into the Ukraine en masse, along with the same Red Army that had brought the land under Russian control during the civil war (History Place). Many farmers organized protests, at which the army would come in and fire warning shots. Sometimes, though, the soldiers fired into the crowd if it failed to disperse. The GPU, meanwhile, systematically hunted down and killed farmers who were leading protests (Ukraine Weekly). It wasn't long before the protests turned into full-scaled resistance: Soviet officials were attacked and killed by the Ukrainian people. Often, the ones who carried out the killings were not men, but women, who were not watched by the Russian authorities. Those already forced onto collective farms, like the women above in a picture obtained from a website memorializing Gareth Jones (who will be discussed more later), refused to work in the fields. Those caught resisting were declared kulaks and sent to Siberia (Ukraine Weekly). It quickly became apparent, though, that it was impossible to transport the whole population of the Ukraine to Siberia. Stalin's solution was to bring the gulag to them instead: by turning the entire nation into one giant concentration camp from which there was no escape. By the summer of 1932, 75% of Ukrainian farmland had been forcibly collectivized. That August, the quota for Ukrainian grain was increased by 44%, and the famine began (History Place). If the people of the Ukraine could not be forced into submission by guns, Stalin believed, perhaps hunger would work.
Shortly after the dramatic increase in the grain quota, the Ukrainian people began to go hungry. Soviet law stated that until the production quota for a collective farm was met, the food could not be touched. Nowhere was this more enforced than in the Ukraine. Even Stalin's closest allies in the region, the Ukrainian Communists, began begging for help. They were not going hungry, but they were living under the naive belief that the famine was not deliberately instigated. The ruler of the Soviet Union responded by purging the Ukrainian Communist Party and replacing the deported members with Russians, 100,000 of whom were used in order to gain a Stalinist majority and silence the protests (History Place). Stalin never hesitated to kill his allies: of the fifteen original members of the Bolshevik government, only he was still alive in 1938 (Ukraine Weekly). The Soviet authorities soon sealed the borders of the nation; no one could get in or out. This meant that any relief sent by Ukrainian nationals in North America was seized by the Russians before it could reach the people it was intended for. The entire nation quickly became one giant gulag (History Place). The GPU put strict travel restrictions in place within the country itself: most people could not leave their village without fear of execution (Library of Congress). The secret police and Red Army were present in every village, guarding granaries overloading with food that had yet to be shipped to Russia, and shooting any who dared to steal (History Place). Ukrainians who were not starving to death had their homes inspected by the GPU. If so much as a morsel of food was found, they were accused of stealing from the Soviet Union, denounced as a kulak, and sent to Siberia if they were lucky enough to not be shot on the spot. Much of the GPU's work was done for them by starving Ukrainians who murdered their neighbors if they believed unshared food was being stashed and hidden (History Place). Some Ukrainians tried to swim across rivers into the Polish-ruled provinces, but few succeeded. Most were too weak to make it and drowned in the process. Meanwhile, their countrymen watched helplessly from the other side of the river as piles of bodies (like the one above obtained from Hawaii University) rose up in plain site on the Soviet side (Ukraine Weekly). At the height of the famine, in the spring of 1933, it was estimated that 25,000 Ukrainians were dying every day. Many in the countryside risked their lives to get to cities like Kiev and Kharkov, hoping to find food. When they got there, though, there was none to be found. The death rate in the city was even higher than in the countryside, because disease came hand in hand with overcrowding (History Place). Hunger is indeed a powerful force, just as Stalin had predicted. Many of the once-civilized Ukrainians began committing the most savage act of all: cannibalism. One man recounted an experience he had in Kiev: "I saw a woman with . . . goods out for sale. Her goods consisted of jellied meat, frozen jellied meat, which she sold at 50 rubles a portion. I saw a man come over to her - a man who bore all the marks of starvation - he bought himself a portion and began eating. As he ate of his portion, he noticed that a human finger was imbedded in the jelly'" (Ukraine Weekly). As the population of the Ukraine spiraled downward, corpses began to pile up everywhere. One Russian woman brought in after the famine to repair wells described her experience, "'I saw villages that not only had no people, but not even any dogs and cats, and I remember one particular incident: we came to one village, and I don't think I will ever forget this. I will always see this picture before me. We opened the door of this miserable hut and there...a man was lying. The mother and child already lay dead, and the father had taken the piece of meat from...his son and had died just like that. The stench was terrific, we couldn't stand it, and this was not the only time that I remember such incidents, there were other such incidents on our trip...'" (Ukraine Weekly). One railroad worker described a grisly scene to interviewers. He said, "'Every morning at a fixed hour before dawn the trains would leave...the trains were empty...four hours later the trains would return and stop at a small way station, and then proceed on...all cars were locked and guarded by the secret police...one day the conductor...opened the door of one car slightly...it was full of corpses, piled at random'" (Altman 46). How many other millions of stories would never be told, drowned out years ago by hunger? Estimates for the final death toll in the famine range from 4.8 million to 10 million, but most agree on 7.4 million, with a margin of error of a few hundred thousand. This was one quarter of the Ukrainian population (History Place). Stalin achieved his goal for the short-term. Nationalism was crushed in the Ukraine. By the end of 1933, the quota was lifted and the worst was over (History Place). The biggest question surrounding the famine is its lack of publicity. How could an act of genocide this huge occur in the twentieth century and the world not know? The answer to that question is almost as evil as the act itself.
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The first five year plan was launched by Stalin in 1928. Fundamental in this plan was the collectivization of farms. When the Ukrainian farmers resisted, Stalin launched his brutal famine. This genocide was much more complex than the Holocaust. Aside from racism and anger, Stalin had other reasons for his mass murder, all of which were meant to benefit Russia. These goals for the famine included:
• Successful Collectivization of the Ukraine; the most fertile area in the Soviet Union
• The crushing of Ukrainian nationalism and the dominance of Russia over the other Soviet Republics
• The successful exportation of enough grain to finance the five year plans
• The repopulation of the Ukraine by Russian Communists and the destruction of the Ukrainian people
Through his famine policy, Stalin successfully collectivized almost all of the Ukraine, the most important agricultural portion of the U.S.S.R. (History Channel). In 1928, Stalin had announced the first of his five year plans for the Soviet Union. The plans were timetables for the rapid industrialization of the Soviet Union and had strict quotas for all raw materials in Russia (History Channel). Without all farms, mines and factories under state control, this plan would be impossible (History Place). After the famine, nobody in the Ukraine dared to challenge his collectivization policy. As the above map (obtained from the History Place website) shows, Russia is a vast land, towering over the Ukraine. The Soviet Union of 1932 contained Russia, the Ukraine, Belorussia, and Transcaucasia (divided in 1936 into Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan). This "Union" was more like a Russian Empire, but Russian propagandists tried to hide this from outsiders (History Channel). The Ukraine was second to Russia in population and wealth, and was therefore the most dangerous to Stalin (Ukraine Weekly). Through the Ukranian famine and genocides similar to it (The Kazakstan Famine, The Muslim Deportations) Stalin assured that Russia would dominate the Soviet Union and would not be challenged by nationalism (Infoukes). As part of his plan to destroy Ukrainian nationalism, Stalin promoted colonization of the land by ethnic Russians (Ukraine Weekly). The best evidence of this is the most recent census taken in the Ukraine: over 22% of the people there are ethnic Russians (Grolier). Many of these Russians are descendants of the settlers who arrived in the latter stages of the famine. In Section 14 of Chapter 2 (page not available) in The Ninth Circle of Hell, Olexa Woropay described a clash between surviving Ukranian orphans and ethnic Russian schoolchildren. The orphans ambushed the settlers and severely hurt them, saying, “‘You have murdered our parents by hunger, and occupied our houses. Go away from our homes! Go away from our village!’” The schoolmaster of these orphans was imprisoned for twelve years following the incident. His crime, according to the Soviets, was his failure to teach his Ukrainian students proper love of “the fraternal Russian people” (Woropay). Possibly the most important and diabolical reason for the famine was Stalin’s five year plans (History Place). The famine assured that all farms would fall under state control through forced collectivization. A second function of the famine, though, was to finance the construction of mines and factories. During the famine, Stalin was able to export vast amounts of grain to various nations all over the world. He was able to offer extremely low prices to nations full of starving people (remember that the famine took place from 1932-33, in the midst of the Great Depression). With the money Stalin made from the grain exports, he purchased machines from the very same nations. It is easy to see that the Western nations, including the United States, benefitted from the famine, as the result was massive amounts of grain that could be given to starving citizens and thousands of manufacturing jobs that could be given to the unemployed (History Place). The five year plans helped to make the Soviet Union, with Russia at its heart, one of the most powerful nations on earth in only a little more than a decade (History Channel). Stalin was no stupid man, and he perfectly manufactured the famine to ensure that Russia benefitted as much as possible. Vital to his plan was the secrecy of the Western media.
Stalin, of course, would not be able to continue his lucrative deals with the west if the people of those nations discovered the extent of his atrocities in the Ukraine. He needed the media to be silent. As has been shown before, Stalin was an extremely intelligent man. If he was not, he would not have been able to rise to power and would not have been able to conduct such a profitable genocide as the Ukrainian famine (History Channel). He knew very early on in his reign that he would need a respected reporter in the west whom he could count on to be his voice. He found that man in Walter Duranty. Duranty was a rising reporter who had already achieved a small level of success. He was The New York Times correspondent in Moscow, and was exactly the kind of person Stalin was looking for: an ambitious reporter with a large ego. He was hand-picked by Stalin for an exclusive interview in 1931, in which they discussed the five year plan. Thanks to the interview and the subsequent stories surrounding it, Duranty received the Pulitzer Prize in 1932 (Pulitzer-Winning Lies). In early 1933, while the famine was reaching its peak, a young Welsh journalist named Gareth Jones traveled to the Ukraine. He had been hearing rumors of a bad famine in British reporting circles, and had decided to see for himself if it was true. When he arrived in March, he went by foot from village to village, horrified at what he saw. At the end of the month, Jones filed a report describing the suffering of the Ukrainian peasantry that was published in many major western newspapers, including the New York Evening Post and The Manchester Guardian (Gareth Jones Biography). Stalin’s secret was out. The Soviet dictator was not nervous, despite the fact that millions of people had just found out about his genocide. He had a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter on his side; his opponent, Jones, was in his twenties, just a few years removed from college. On March 31, Duranty published his rebuttal to Jones in the New York Times. In it, he defended Stalin and attacked Jones, saying that Jones had greatly exaggerated the amount of Russian suffering (Duranty, along with the rest of the world, referred to all people in the Soviet Union as Russians; this is precisely what Stalin had hoped for) in order to make a name for himself. The world was faced with a choice: would they take the word of a twenty-something writer, or would they believe a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter? As one could guess, Duranty’s story is the one that won out (Gareth Jones Biography). Six weeks after Duranty’s rebuttal, the Times agreed to publish a counter-rebuttal by Jones. In it, Jones showed evidence (such as letters written by victims) that the famine was indeed occurring. Shortly after this piece, Stalin banned him from ever again setting foot in the U.S.S.R., and he never got the opportunity to retrieve more evidence (Gareth Jones). Bernard Shaw, a respected British reporter, decided that he himself would go to the Ukraine and inspect the happenings there. He was led on a tour by the Communists through model villages full of plump Ukrainians. He had no way of knowing that the people he saw were not peasants, but members of the Communist Party elite and the secret police. Had he strayed from the tour, as Jones had, he would have found country roads littered with corpses, and families with but one survivor, teetering toward death. Instead, he followed the tour and came back to Britain with a good impression (The History Place). After Shaw’s “inspection” of the Ukraine, the GPU arrested six British engineers working in Moscow and charged them as spies. The trial, of course, was open to the media, but only if they did not mention the famine in their stories. Correspondents had to decide between reporting on the famine, which meant being denounced by two of the most respected journalists in the world, or reporting on the trial, an easy story that would enhance their careers. Just as Stalin predicted, they all chose the latter (The History Place). The famine was once again a secret, and to a large extent, it still is.
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Despite the fact that the United States Congress passed a resolution in 1988 that stated that genocide occurred in the Ukraine, many people today still deny that the event ever took place. They insist that the story was made up by the Ukrainian community because of the guilt it feels for having collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust (In Search of a Soviet Holocaust). Unlike Holocaust deniers, these people have legitimate arguments:
• Why does the world trust a young writer fresh out of college more than it does a Pulitzer Prize winner?
• Aren’t these the same Ukrainians who participated in the Holocaust during World War Two?
• Why would Roosevelt recognize choose to recognize the Soviet government if he knew that genocide was occurring in that country?
• Isn’t it possible that the famine really did occur but was caused by the peasants themselves when they refused to work on collective farms?
The deniers raise very interesting questions, and they deserve answers (In Search of a Soviet Holocaust). There, however, answers to every one of those questions. The world today should definitely trust Gareth Jones over Walter Duranty. There is currently a large campaign to revoke Duranty’s Pulitzer. It has been discovered that some of Duranty’s superiors at the Times knew that he was lying about the famine and considered firing him, no small thought considering he had won the Pulitzer Prize less than a year before. During the Jayson Blair scandal at the prestigious newspaper, the editors themselves said that his lies were nothing close to the level of Duranty’s (Pulitzer-Winning Lies). It is true that many Ukrainians rejoiced when the Germans marched through in 1941. One has to remember, however, that the Germans had liberated the Ukraine from Russia less than a quarter of a century before. When the Nazis occupied the Ukraine, it had been less than a decade since the famine. The people were finally free of Stalin, the man who had tried to wipe them out just eight years earlier. It is also true that many Ukrainians participated in the Holocaust. Again, one must remember that Trotsky, who had led the Red Army to victory during the civil war, was Jewish, as was a large portion of the secret police. Despite the fact the Jews had suffered just as much during the famine as their countrymen had, the Nazi propaganda convinced the people otherwise (Infoukes). This sympathy for the Nazis ended, however, when the Ukrainians began to be used for slave labor in the fields in order to feed the German people. Many Ukrainians began to participate in guerilla warfare against the Germans, and were as instrumental to Russian victory in the east as the French Resistance was to the Allied one in the west (Grolier). It is also true that Franklin Roosevelt,above, one of the most revered presidents in American history, chose to recognize the Soviet Union for the first time in the midst of the famine. As discussed before, though, the United States had a lot to gain by turning a blind eye to the famine. Roosevelt turning a blind eye to genocide is no earth-shaking revelation. Any high school history student knows that the United States, with Roosevelt as its leader, refused to allow Jewish refugees into the country during the Holocaust and made no effort to liberate the concentration camps in western Germany. Perhaps the strongest argument that could be given by genocide deniers is that a famine did take place, but was a result of the peasants refusal to work on collective farms. Something similar to this happened in Kazakstan just before the Ukraine famine took place: the herders there murdered all of their livestock rather than give it to Soviet authorities, and 1.5 million starved to death. There are, however, some major flaws with this belief. The famine in the Ukraine stopped at the Russian border, where just across the river there was ample food. There was no death rate for Russian communists on duty in the Ukraine; if there was no food, these people should have died along with the peasants. Nikita Kruschev, Stalin's successor, admitted that genocide took place in the Ukraine from 1932-33. Many peasants across the Soviet Union refused to work on collective farms, and while a large amount of these people were sent to Siberia and died there, the only other regions stricken by famine were Kazakstan and the Northern Caucasus (where Ukrainians are an ethnic majority). Even if the famine did occur as a result of the peasants’ refusal to work, it is not as if the Soviet government did anything to alleviate the suffering by raising the grain quota 44% (History Place). By looking at the facts, one can conclude that the famine definitely happened and was definitely an act of genocide.
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
• -Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945 (A Lutheran priest in Nazi Germany)
Today’s Ukraine is very different than the one of 1932. It has a large amount of industry to accompany its agriculture. Its large Jewish minority is now almost non-existent, decimated by two genocides in 13 years. A large Russian minority now resides in the nation, especially in the cities of Kiev and Kharkov, where Ukrainian is rarely heard on the streets. More than half of the nation’s people now reside in urban areas. The struggle for independence finally ended in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed upon itself and its republics peacefully withdrew (The History Channel). The famine (and the Nazi Holocaust that followed) dramatically changed the nation. If there is any important lesson to be learned from the famine, it is this: GENOCIDE CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE MEDIA STAYS SILENT. The most important weapon in fighting genocide is words. The above quote from Martin Niemoller, obtained from the Campaign to End Genocide’s website, describes this very well. Gareth Jones risked his life to tell the western world about the famine. When he did this again in 1934 in an attempt to tell the world of Japanese atrocities in Manchuria, he was killed. The official story is that he was kidnaped and murdered by local Chinese bandits, but there are many who believe that either Russia or Japan was behind his death (Gareth Jones Biography). Had Walter Duranty written out of humility instead of fear and greed, millions of lives might have been saved. Like so many other genocides given little media coverage, the famine remains unknown today to most of the world. There are two main genocides that come to mind when thinking of the media’s power to save lives: The Congo and Yugoslavia. At the turn of the century, while the Belgians were murdering millions of Congolese, the media reported savage stories of Belgian soldiers amputating the hands of their victims who did not agree to work. A worldwide uproar forced King Leopold II of Belgium to end the massacre. In Yugoslavia, the bodies of Bosnian and Albanian victims were photographed and shown in TIME magazine. The uproar that followed resulted in an American-brokered peace treaty to end the Bosnian genocide and a NATO bombing campaign over Serbia that ended the killing in Kosovo. The instances of genocide in the twentieth century that are most widely discussed are the Killing Fields of Cambodia and the Holocaust. In both instances, the massacres were ended by an invading army: the Allies ended the Holocaust at the conclusion of World War Two and the Vietnamese ended the reign of Pol Pot after their invasion of Cambodia in 1977. Both liberating armies invited the world media to photograph the horrible atrocities they discovered, and today those images appear in most western textbooks (Campaign to End Genocide). The last significant abuse the Russians committed in the Ukraine was the Chernobyl disaster. Chernobyl was a nuclear power plant that suffered a meltdown in 1986. The Soviet leaders did not evacuate the area because they thought doing so would be an embarrassment. The lives of the Ukrainian people in the area never seemed to matter to them. Only after western scientists noticed a large amount of radiation in the air did the secret get out, forcing the Russians to evacuate the area. The disregard for the Ukrainian residents is still killing people today, eighteen years after the meltdown (Infoukes). The Chernobyl story is just another example of the media’s importance in protecting human rights. If the western reporters had spoken up during the famine instead of worrying about their careers, the western people would have forced their governments to end trade with Stalin, and the famine might very well have stopped. Instead, 7.4 million Ukrainians died needless deaths.
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Originally posted by Viking
You may be half Ukrainian by birth Boroda, but you're all Russian in mind. The Ukrainians sure think they're a separate country. As for Stalin … yeah he was insane. His most notable psychosis was extreme paranoia. Many people, especially military officers and high-ranking party members paid with their lives to satisfy his irrational fears.
Zdoroven'ki buly, blya.
Russian or Ukrainian in mind - please, STFU and let me decide. I am more Ukrainian then Russian, as everyone says :) You don;t have any idea about it anyway. Keep your mouth shut - and you have a chance to look clever.
Stalin: paranoia and irrational fears. Hmm. He won, didn't he? Maybe he was right? Trotskiy's dreams implemented in China were muuuch worse then what we had here.
My Grand-Father was one of the officers (commanders) that you mention. Brigade commander, cavalry. Spent two years in BAMlag, 32-34. All charges removed. He was an Imperial Army leutenant (kornet), 2nd Lieb-Dragoon Pskov Regiment, Riga front, 1916-17, happend to be a Regiment Chief of Staff and then - regiment commander, so it happened. Red Army since 1918, Red Banner Order number 123, regiment commander in 2nd Cavalry Army in Civil War. Fortunately he retired after prison.
Most of the officers you mentioned were nothing as commanders in modern war. Like Marshall Bluher who got executed for being deadly drunk during the lake Hasan conflict with Japan.
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Originally posted by Boroda
As if it was not like that in the US...
.
Miracle.
And when exactly was it like that in the US?
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Viking, too many chars.
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wow....can article be any more of anti-Russian propaganda?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Keep your mouth shut - and you have a chance to look clever.
My mouth is shut, it's my keyboard you need to silence. Fortunately I live in a free society where I can say and write what I want without fear for my life … Unlike a certain big neighbor to the east in past years, and perhaps even today to some degree.
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Originally posted by Viking
My mouth is shut, it's my keyboard you need to silence. Fortunately I live in a free society where I can say and write what I want without fear for my life … Unlike a certain big neighbor to the east in past years, and perhaps even today to some degree.
LOL!!! :D
Again, look at my sig.
Unlike You, I really can say and do whatever I want. It's Russland, dude. The country that sent it's marines to liberate you in 1945.
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Originally posted by ghi
imop, Putin is right, and high class diplomat, He said it in polite way, not like Hugo Chavez,
Last year the starving primitive peoples of N.Corea built a nuke, few weeks ago chinesse shot down a satelite and Iran goes atomic next, or maybe already has them, and all of this cuz of bully american threats to nations that have nothing to do with 9/11,
imop a President should be a diplomat, should know to negociate, even with enemy, not just puke words and threats
Every program you just mentioned started well before Bush was even elected.
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Originally posted by Boroda
[BUnlike You, I really can say and do whatever I want. It's Russland, dude. The country that sent it's marines to liberate you in 1945. [/B]
they sent them in Romania also, to liberate and bring 50 years of comunism missery, i did taste it,
Sometims in think the allies just delayed the birth European Union with 50 years, Hitler was mad but he wouldn't have lived forever
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Originally posted by Boroda
My Grand-Father was one of the officers (commanders) that you mention. Brigade commander, cavalry. Spent two years in BAMlag, 32-34. All charges removed. Fortunately he retired after prison.
Am I reading this right Boroda? Are you saying your Grandfather was thrown in prison for two years? And why was that?
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Am I reading this right Boroda? Are you saying your Grandfather was thrown in prison for two years? And why was that?
Too tired to answer your other questions, that are very interesting and constructive.
I am a late kid, born in 1972, Father, Yuri Anatoliyevich - born in 1926, Grandfather, Anatoliy Nikolayevich, born in 1889.
He was sent to a labour camp in 1932, for "Czarist officers coup" that was an obvious nonsence. Father says he was lucky to be in the first line of "repressions". After he was released with all charges abandoned - he was a commander of a horse-breeding farm in Rostov-on-Don region, in a rank of a Major (instead of a Brigade General), there were no "ranks" in Red Army then, only positions.
He graduated from Warsaw University in 1914, studied there because he wasn't allowed to go to the Uni in metropolitan Russia - he didn't study in classic Gimnasia, so he could study further only in Polish Kingdom. In 1914 he went to a Cavalry College, studied together with a Serbian prince who later became a Yugoslavian king. Got to the front-line in 1916, and as a young officer became a "regiment adjutant" to prince Kropotkin, who was ignored by officers community for "adultery". His own errand soldier suddenly turned to be a regiment commeetee chairman in 1917, and A.N. became a regiment commander for a couple of months, until that errand told him to run away quikly - or he'll be killed... Worked in Voronezh as an attorney assistant until Trotskiy's decree to hire all former Imperial officers into Red Army, went up in ranks to a regiment commander (again) and earned a Red Banner order #123 in 1920... Became a Cavalry brigade commander by early 1930s, then - sentenced for imaginary "coup".
At the same time my other relatives served in Volunteer Army on the other side, Granny's Father had to emigrate to France, where he died in 1969...
Family story. So it goes...
I am the first "civilian" in a family, not an officer, in 3 generations, on both Father's and Mother's sides. When I went to MSTU in 1989 I thought I'll wear a uniform after graduation, I studied to become a weapon engineer. Interesting times.
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Ukrainian are Polish
Happy new year Boroda ;)
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Originally posted by ghi
they sent them in Romania also, to liberate and bring 50 years of comunism missery, i did taste it,
Sometims in think the allies just delayed the birth European Union with 50 years, Hitler was mad but he wouldn't have lived forever
IIRC Romanians where a part of nazi's army invade Russia?right?
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Hi again, Boroda! :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
Too tired to answer your other questions, that are very interesting and constructive.
I am a late kid, born in 1972, Father, Yuri Anatoliyevich - born in 1926, Grandfather, Anatoliy Nikolayevich, born in 1889.
He was sent to a labour camp in 1932, for "Czarist officers coup" that was an obvious nonsence. Father says he was lucky to be in the first line of "repressions". After he was released with all charges abandoned - he was a commander of a horse-breeding farm in Rostov-on-Don region, in a rank of a Major (instead of a Brigade General), there were no "ranks" in Red Army then, only positions.
He graduated from Warsaw University in 1914, studied there because he wasn't allowed to go to the Uni in metropolitan Russia - he didn't study in classic Gimnasia, so he could study further only in Polish Kingdom. In 1914 he went to a Cavalry College, studied together with a Serbian prince who later became a Yugoslavian king. Got to the front-line in 1916, and as a young officer became a "regiment adjutant" to prince Kropotkin, who was ignored by officers community for "adultery". His own errand soldier suddenly turned to be a regiment commeetee chairman in 1917, and A.N. became a regiment commander for a couple of months, until that errand told him to run away quikly - or he'll be killed... Worked in Voronezh as an attorney assistant until Trotskiy's decree to hire all former Imperial officers into Red Army, went up in ranks to a regiment commander (again) and earned a Red Banner order #123 in 1920... Became a Cavalry brigade commander by early 1930s, then - sentenced for imaginary "coup".
At the same time my other relatives served in Volunteer Army on the other side, Granny's Father had to emigrate to France, where he died in 1969...
Family story. So it goes...
I am the first "civilian" in a family, not an officer, in 3 generations, on both Father's and Mother's sides. When I went to MSTU in 1989 I thought I'll wear a uniform after graduation, I studied to become a weapon engineer. Interesting times.
Very interesting information Boroda, as you've said often your experience is very different from those of us in the US. Our history seems much "simpler" than yours. I know what you mean of assuming you'd wear a uniform, it does become a family "tradition". My Father, Uncle, both Brothers and I have all been Naval Officers. My Son graduates from college in a few months and get's his commission as an Ensign and then is off to flight training. My daughter just started college this year and she'll get her commission in 2010.
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Originally posted by ghi
imop, Putin is right, and high class diplomat, He said it in polite way, not like Hugo Chavez,
Last year the starving primitive peoples of N.Corea built a nuke, few weeks ago chinesse shot down a satelite and Iran goes atomic next, or maybe already has them, and all of this cuz of bully american threats to nations that have nothing to do with 9/11,
imop a President should be a diplomat, should know to negociate, even with enemy, not just puke words and threats
.. did Bush do this before or after he melted the polar caps? lol LOL
like this would never have happened if the US didn't have to go to war against a non complying UN resolution Iraq ... sure it would not have...
the more the entire region shows just how unstable it really becoming, the more I feel we need a HUGE military presence based in Iraq.
ps
Russia is against the US in the beginning of the end but comes around and assists the powers of righteousness to defeat the dragon in the end.. But by then I do not think it'll be peaches and cream for many of us left behind...
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Originally posted by Yeager
"This is very dangerous, nobody feels secure anymore because nobody can hide behind international law," Putin told the gathering.
uh o, they gittin the jumper cables out, they gonna start up their tank..
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Yay - another Stalin vs. Hitler hijack thread - If I had a ruble for every time this has come up, I could buy a Big Mac!
Side by side, the lesser evil was Hitler. in Total Evilness of course.
Putin is a puss in comparison.