Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on February 11, 2007, 07:45:33 PM
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Windshield fails, both pilot pass out, they wake up in a death dive and proceed to land. Look at the plane's damage
video (http://www.kfvs.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?clipid1=1213165&at1=News&vt1=v&h1=Emergency+Landing&d1=223734&redirUrl=www.kfvs12.com&activePane=info&LaunchPageAdTag=homepage&playerVersion=1&hostPageUrl=http%3A//www.kfvs.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunch.asp%3Fclipid1%3D1213165%26at1%3DNews%26vt1%3Dv%26h1%3DEmergency+Landing%26d1%3D223734%26redirUrl%3Dwww.kfvs12.com%26activePane%3Dinfo%26LaunchPageAdTag%3Dhomepage&rnd=45873301) :eek:
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Wow.
Strong indeed.
Wow.
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oops..my bad.
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tried number of times... sorry but video won't play at all
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video stops 1/2 through for me and I get an obnoxious casino commercial...
I bet the end was cool though...:confused:
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javascript:playVideo('1213165', 'Emergency%20Landing', 'v', 'News', '223734', 'Business', '', '');
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http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/SearchResults.asp?qu=pilot&x=0&y=0
first video
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NM. Cav reposted vid.
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Some chit.
Bet the pilot is an AH player used to landing with oil damage on the windscreen ;)
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Thx Cav, appreciated.
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Lucky guys in that plane. A slightly different deformation and structural failure pattern on either the tail or the wing and it never would have been controllable.
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good thing they did not have auto pilot on, they would be dead. that happened to a small plane few years ago, the plane flew until it ran out of fuel.
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Make sure your O2 masks are working before you dump cabin pressure.
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Unless the cabin depressurized slowly and the pilots were taken unawares they should have been able to drop to a lower altitude without passing out. It isn't immediate incapacitation on pressure loss. The O2 comment is also on the mark. it should have been available in mask format.
They are 2 very lucky guys.
:O
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For those of you who are just joining us:
The plane, owned by the "Assembly of Jesus" was positioning: just the pilot and f/o. The windshield cracked at 27,000 feet, so they dumped cabin pressure, started to descend, and put on masks. That's when they noticed the O2 wasn't flowing.
NTSB Identification: CHI07LA063
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, February 02, 2007 in Cape Girardeau, MO
Aircraft: Raytheon Aircraft Company B200, registration: N777AJ
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On February 2, 2007, about 1030 central standard time, a Raytheon Aircraft Company B200, N777AJ, sustained substantial damage during an uncontrolled descent and recovery from cruise at flight level 270. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The flightcrew reported that they depressurized the airplane after noticing cracking of the airplane windshield. They then donned their oxygen masks but were unable to obtain oxygen from the oxygen system resulting in their loss of consciousness. They later regained consciousness, recovered from the descent, and landed without further incident at Cape Girardeau Regional Airport, Cape Girardeau, Missouri. The 14 CFR Part 91 flight was operating on an instrument rules flight plan. The pilot and copilot were uninjured. The flight originated from Rogers Municipal Airport-Carter Field, Rogers, Arkansas, at 0939.
On-scene inspection of the airplane noted that approximately 2/3 of the left horizontal stabilizer and elevator were separated from the aircraft and 2/3 of the right elevator was separated but attached at the inboard hinge. The left and right wings were wrinkled. The left pilot windshield outer and inner ply were intact. The inner ply exhibited a shattered appearance with a crack at the lower right hand corner of the windshield. The cabin pressurization dump switch was in the dump position.
The oxygen system worked when it was functionally tested in accordance with Airplane Flight Manual.
Reply
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Lucky escape, but the Super King Air is a strong aircraft. There's one parked round the back of the hangar at the airport I fly out of. I'm not sure what happened but I think the pilot became disorientated in IMC and entered the usual spiral dive, then went VMC and pulled hard. The aeroplane looks OK until you get get close and see all kinds of funny angles. It will never fly again.
Interesting comment in the NTSB report about the oxygen working normally. Wonder if there is more to the story?
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Anyone have an idea of what the max speed rating of this plane is and what it may have gone up to?
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According to that report, they first dumped pressure and then donned O2 masks. If I recall my training correctly, at 27,000 ft the time of useful consciousness can be as low as 30 seconds and significant impairment can occur almost immediately, so it is very possible they were already hypoxic and unable to accomplish the oxygen procedures within seconds of dumping cabin pressure.
I also suspect that as they awoke, one of them pulled back on the controls before being alert enough to properly assess attitude and airspeed, so they may have ripped the tail off themselves. The failure pattern (ripped off stab and wingtips bent up) don't look to me like a "simple" overspeed.
None of this is particularly unusual or unexpected during or after a hypoxia event, except the fact that they survived. The expected result from a chain of events like this is death. Getting on oxygen immediately and if possible BEFORE dumping cabin pressure is absolutely critical, as is descending immediately.
Also of note is that pressure breathing is required above around 25,000 ft otherwise your lungs will not absorb enough oxygen. So even if there was plenty of unpressurized oxygen flow when they donned the masks, a bad mask seal or a delay in descending to a lower altitude could have still resulted in hypoxia and unconsciousness. This is why unpressurized military aircraft are limited to 25,000 ft and below. Pressure breathing is not comfortable even when properly trained on a recurring basis.
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Originally posted by john9001
good thing they did not have auto pilot on, they would be dead. that happened to a small plane few years ago, the plane flew until it ran out of fuel.
Payne Stewart's final flight (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/stewart/stewfs14.htm)
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They were lucky to gather that in. Under FAR 23 pressure breathing apparatus is only required if the aircraft is certificated to fly above FL400. Aircraft certificated to fly between FL250 and FL400 can use diluter demand equipment.
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Im curious to whether windshield heat was on prior to take off, and if not, did they throw it on in cruise, resulting in the spidering? If not, possibly a short in the heating, and if touched, the differential temps resulted in the webbing. Going to be interesting to read the final report.
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Cav check your King Air's checklist for a cracked windshield. I think you'll find that these guys didn't do much right and are lucky to be alive. The very last thing you want to do is dump the cabin in this case but rather maintain a positive differential in pressure.
Also...take this and run with it to be sure to check your oxygen system prior to flight and make sure it's been turned on properly. This has to be done on every flight (IIRC you fly a B200 or 300?)
Brush up on the procedures. At your next recurrent this will likely be talked about (it already is being talked about in depth) to great extent and its also noteworthy because having windshields blow in King Airs is not a terribly uncommon thing. I've seen 2 taxi back home and know personally 4 other drivers who have had them blow.
At first I thought to myself that they bunged up a roll and over G'd the airplane pulling out of the ensuing dive. That didn't explain the broken windshield but even more to question is their actions following the routine abnormality of having a windshield panel blow. As you know there are 2 panels and having one pop on you will pucker you up...but its no reason to panic.
Cav - did they send you to school or what other training have you gone through on the airplane?
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In the Metro with have the windshield heat on low from the time we start the engines to when we exit the runway. We had a windshield spiderweb, we saw a spark followed by the crack. I don't think that having the windshield heat on was the cause for it's failure.
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if ur up in teh class A, the windshied should have some sort of opaque protective cover, like maybe some old F4U or P-47 headrests
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Originally posted by eagl
I also suspect that as they awoke, one of them pulled back on the controls before being alert enough to properly assess attitude and airspeed, so they may have ripped the tail off themselves. The failure pattern (ripped off stab and wingtips bent up) don't look to me like a "simple" overspeed.
Good point, that makes sense.
So how many g's do you think they pulled to wrinkle the wings like that?
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At least 1/2 less than it takes to pull the wings off totally. :O
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Good point, that makes sense.
So how many g's do you think they pulled to wrinkle the wings like that?
most planes in the normal category are limited to +4 -1.5 Gs with a 50% safety factor, so maybe over 6, but if they had other stuff failing on the plane maybe it sukt so maybe less than 6, unless the failures we caused by outside factor such as collision with a micrometeoroid, then back to over 6
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Originally posted by Debonair
most planes in the normal category are limited to +4 -1.5 Gs with a 50% safety factor, so maybe over 6, but if they had other stuff failing on the plane maybe it sukt so maybe less than 6, unless the failures we caused by outside factor such as collision with a micrometeoroid, then back to over 6
LOL, so enough to make them pass out again.
I bet they held their breath on the aproach and landing just to go for a third pass-out.
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I just want to add a few notable exceptions, not trying to contradict anything you have said.
-B-17 crews (unpressurized) sometimes flew at 30,000 feet, and a few times even higher.
-A few tough individuals have climbed Mount Everest (30,000ft) without supplemental oxygen.
Originally posted by eagl
According to that report, they first dumped pressure and then donned O2 masks. If I recall my training correctly, at 27,000 ft the time of useful consciousness can be as low as 30 seconds and significant impairment can occur almost immediately, so it is very possible they were already hypoxic and unable to accomplish the oxygen procedures within seconds of dumping cabin pressure.
I also suspect that as they awoke, one of them pulled back on the controls before being alert enough to properly assess attitude and airspeed, so they may have ripped the tail off themselves. The failure pattern (ripped off stab and wingtips bent up) don't look to me like a "simple" overspeed.
None of this is particularly unusual or unexpected during or after a hypoxia event, except the fact that they survived. The expected result from a chain of events like this is death. Getting on oxygen immediately and if possible BEFORE dumping cabin pressure is absolutely critical, as is descending immediately.
Also of note is that pressure breathing is required above around 25,000 ft otherwise your lungs will not absorb enough oxygen. So even if there was plenty of unpressurized oxygen flow when they donned the masks, a bad mask seal or a delay in descending to a lower altitude could have still resulted in hypoxia and unconsciousness. This is why unpressurized military aircraft are limited to 25,000 ft and below. Pressure breathing is not comfortable even when properly trained on a recurring basis.
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Shrimp,
You're right. But don't forget a few things...
Every everest climber who goes up without O2 has trained for many many years to acclimatize for that environment. There are massive physiological changes that have to occur to be able to do that.
The experiences(and mysterious deaths) of those WWII pilots and the early jet pilots directly led to a lot of very strict rules. Another issue with high altitude flying is the potential to get the bends. It took years of research and collaboration between diving and flying pioneers to figure out what was going on there and to set limits. We know now that 25,000 is the max safe altitude for unpressurized aircraft because bad things happen to even highly trained and acclimatized pilots above that alt.
I know of highly experienced T-37 pilots who nearly died following just 2 1.5 hour sorties above 23,000 ft, due to the bends. As a student, I personally experienced moderate hypoxia at 17,000 ft following an oxygen regulator failure, and the only thing that saved me was the instructor in the seat next to me because I wasn't experienced enough to recognize the early symptoms. I sure as hell know those symptoms now, but the first time you are in that situation it is unlikely you'll recognize the problem until it's far too late.
Our training shows us that even doing simple math (what is 5+7?) for more than 30 seconds above 23,000 ft without oxygen can be impossible. The first time I went through altitude chamber training, I thought I was doing fine for 2 minutes but after I went back on oxygen, the instructor showed me what I'd written... Apparently at 23,000 ft without oxygen, 2+2 equals four thousand plus some other meaningless squiggles :rolleyes:
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FlightSafety has the equipment now where you wear a mask similar to your regular oxygen mask. They can manipulate the mixture of oxygen to nitrogen so you simply wear it and they take you up or down in altitude. You really get to see the symptoms take hold of you and you're just along for the ride.
When I was down there for my initial last April they had the brochures out. When I asked about the extra cost because I was on a full service contract (what...no happy ending?!) it wouldn't cost anything more. I took the course which chopped a few hours out of an afternoon. The other guys from my company were in their own sim at the time so it was friday night, had no job and had nothin' better to do so I went and got hiiiiiiiiigh...altitude.
When you see it in the debriefing room on the monitor (Camera records your actions, mics record your voice and instant telemetry shows what your controls and the airplane are doing) its a sight to see.
Even filling out the worksheet they gave us before hand with some circles to draw, math problems to complete (like eagl said...2+2 doesn't equal 4 when you're hypoxic) and so forth.
Comparing an acclimitized mountain climber to your average joe pilot in an airplane isn't a fair thing. I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere close to the summit without oxygen. Neither would 99.9999999% of people on Earth.
TUC is a big deal, but it does get better the lower you go. I've found that I was capable of functioning "normally" below FL180 for an extended period of time (15 minutes of that "altitude" when undergoing training) without any seriously adverse effects. When they brought us back down from altitude we were at 28,000' and they told us to look at the PFDs in the airplane sim. They brought us right back down to sea level oxygen percentages and the color vision returned to our eyes. It's hard to describe but before they did it they appeared normal. When they upped the O2 levels the dull colors of the old t.v. set turned into a bright new HD plasma screen. It was incredible. Neither of us had realized or noticed that symptom from the get go. I'd started with tingly fingers somewhere above FL180 and was thinking a little slower when it came to answering questions on the worksheet.
I'm going to have to go back and see if I can find the worksheet. As we debriefed we noted what altitudes we were experiencing as we progressed and it was pretty funny to see me try to copy a sentence, draw a circle or add numbers.
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after glass panels, cockpit sherpa is the next big thing