Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ramzey on February 12, 2007, 08:54:08 PM
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Im looking for info , how often and how big problem it cosed.
I know there was a problem with buhons and avia's. but im not sure about regular german models.
any hints appreciated
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Involved in some anti-LW debate on some other board, eh?
However, there was a Finnish 109 pilot who had forgot his oxygen mask when he went on an intercept mission and when he went higher he had to hold his mouth against the oxygen outlet to remain conscious because of thin air. He did pass out but regained consciousness begore he hit the ground. The story is probably on Finnish Virtualpilots' web page.
This leads me to believe there was no exhaus fume problems in properly serviced 109s. It was probably a problem in some individual aircraft of various manufacturers and was caused by airleaks in gaskets between cockpit and engine compartment. Hope this helps. :)
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I know that La-5s and Typhoons both had this problem pretty bad.
Haven't heard anything about it regarding any other aircraft though.
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Several WWII planes had problems with exhaust fumes. As an example the Brewsters in Finland required some modifications to decrease exhaust fumes in cockpit (same was noted in the British tests). Apparenly the Bf 109G also had some problems; below is a quote from "Lentäjän Näkökulma II":
"Pienemmillä, koneen vastuksen kannalta edullisimmilla, nopeuksilla lentämistä hankaloitti sytytystulppien nokeentuminen ja ohjaamoon tulviva pakokaasu"
Perhaps Charge can translate that to avoid anti-LW debate.
gripen
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No please go ahead Gripen. Nice fuel to flames and I could spoil it if I touch it.
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I've never heard about it in wartime P-38s, but back in 2000, Lefty Gardner's P-38 had a bit of exhaust in the cockpit when doing the runup. In the video, the narrator says something like, "I was more than a bit startled at the smoke that entered the cockpit, but Lefty shrugged it off with a nod."
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Yeah, I wouldn't expect it often if at all from aircraft that don't have an engine in front of the cockpit.
(I was gonna say multi-engined, but then I thought of thr German and Italian tri-motors)
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In the case of the P-38, the smoke would almost certainly come from the heater (both heaters on later models). When the engines caught fire, fire and smoke could come from the heaters and fill the cockpit.
I would hazard a guess that some slight exhaust fumes in the cockpit was a normal thing for an airplane of the era and would not significantly affect the pilot. Certainly I've never heard fumes included in any criticism of the Me-109, even when the pilots complained about the lack of comfort in the cockpit.
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"I would hazard a guess that some slight exhaust fumes in the cockpit was a normal thing for an airplane of the era"
You might not believe this Benny, but for once I agree with you. I find it hard to believe if there was not anykind of smell from engine compartment, fuel, oil, exhaust, coolant etc.
Maybe that was the case in early Tiffies too. To my knowledge none were lost because of pilot passing out because of fumes although it was considered a problem (maybe in door cockpits only, dunno..).
I'd say that an older aircraft with tired fuselage and overly vibrating engine could well develop a leak to firewall from which the exhaust could seep into cockpit. Be it fatal or not I'd find it disturbing...
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Bob Tuck was about to go up in a Tiffie for a test flight when a phone call pulled hi away, so he told another pilot to take it.
That pilot augered it so hard there were only bits of him recovered, but in testing a piece of his liver Tuck said they found enough carbon monoxide to kill an elephant.
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Originally posted by Charge
No please go ahead Gripen. Nice fuel to flames and I could spoil it if I touch it.
Wasn't it you who started to talk about anti-LW debate because ramzey just asked the question?
Anyway, the quote says that exhaust fumes did enter to the cockpit of the Bf 109G in cruise.
gripen
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The only complaints I have heard about fumes in the cockpit of the 109 was about propellant gasses from the engine cannon.
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I found this interesting cuz i never heard about 109 problem with exhaust fumes.
Unless someone show me a book about Do335 , and autor there state 109's have this problem and was not solved till end of war.
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a lot of modern piston planes use the exhaut shroud as a heat source for 'pit heating.
bad idead if you got any corosion in there.
i just wear a hat...
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Originally posted by Viking
The only complaints I have heard about fumes in the cockpit of the 109 was about propellant gasses from the engine cannon.
If that is the case, then exhaust fumes could certainly find their way into the cockpit.
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"Wasn't it you who started to talk about anti-LW debate because ramzey just asked the question?"
Yes, so? I wouldn't have if I'd known it hurt your feelings.
"Anyway, the quote says that exhaust fumes did enter to the cockpit of the Bf 109G in cruise."
And where is that quote from?
Too bad they forgot to mention it in the manuals:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Manuals.html
Not that I consider manuals to be the most reliable source for performance or armament or the use in practice -they probably tended to be outdated quite fast. But I'd expect such major hazard to be mentioned in the manual.
:p
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
If that is the case, then exhaust fumes could certainly find their way into the cockpit.
Yes and I suspect they did, but probably not to a dangerous degree or we would have heard a lot more about it.
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Originally posted by Charge
Yes, so? I wouldn't have if I'd known it hurt your feelings.
Hm... ramzey's question has nothing to do with anti-LW debate, but apparently you saw it like anti-LW.
Generally exhaust fumes caused problems for all air forces, including LW.
Originally posted by Charge
And where is that quote from?
"Lentäjän Näkökulma II", p. 247.
Originally posted by Charge
Too bad they forgot to mention it in the manuals...
There are plenty of issues which are not mentioned in the manuals nor in the web sites.
gripen
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there is nothing about it in the Cessna 170 book
the guy i know that died of cockpit CO was driving his C-170
moral of the story: if you're an A&P & a cheapskate, maybe dont work on your own plane.
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My point isn't that it was or was not a problem, my point is that it probably wasn't more of a problem for the Me-109 than for other planes. We know that taking off and landing was more of a problem for the Messerschmitt than for most fighters, because references to it are found in abundance. So if the exhaust was more of a problem for the 109 than for other ships, one would expect references to it to likewise abound.
Of course I have no data whatsoever, so I'm not saying that it was or was not a problem. I'm just pointing out that there's been no data presented to indicate that the Me Hundertneun was more prone to having smoke or fumes in the cockpit than any other kite.
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unlike a groundloop, CO is colorless & odorless
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Of course I have no data whatsoever, so I'm not saying that it was or was not a problem. I'm just pointing out that there's been no data presented to indicate that the Me-109 was more prone to having smoke or fumes in the cockpit than any other kite.
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Wasn't a resent crash of a 109 blamed on CO?
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Originally posted by Karnak
Bob Tuck was about to go up in a Tiffie for a test flight when a phone call pulled hi away, so he told another pilot to take it.
That pilot augered it so hard there were only bits of him recovered, but in testing a piece of his liver Tuck said they found enough carbon monoxide to kill an elephant.
Seems like it was standard practice with Tiffies to get the oxygen mask on right away because of this, at least for a time.
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Gripen's quote is from a paragraph discussing fuel consumption and flying time. The quote translates as:
"Flying at lower, air resistance wise more advantageous, speeds was awkward because of the soot forming into spark plugs and the exhaust fumes flowing to cockpit."
Should that be interpreted as "cruising speed" or even more slowly?