Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VOR on February 14, 2007, 07:52:52 AM
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Mahmoud denies involvement, so this is an apparent ruse to bolster support for action against Iran for more oilz and Haliburton contractz.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/02/13/wiran13.jpg)
The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.
The sale was condemned in Washington and London because officials were worried that the weapons would be used by insurgents against British and American troops.
Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon.
Over the last six months American forces have found small caches of the £10,000 rifles but in the last 24 hours a raid in Baghdad brought the total to more than 100, US defence sources reported.
Full Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=JPKY4R41A1KIBQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml)
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Did they sell the rifle to anyone else?
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Sure, the CIA bought a few hundred and planted them around Iraq. Other than that, I dunno.
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did you ever hear of matching serial numbers?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Did they sell the rifle to anyone else?
Probably, but the timing is very suspect. I'd say that this is a clear indication (if not proof) of Iran's involvement, not that it should be a surprise to anyone. I am however a bit surprised at the carelessness of the Iranians.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
did you ever hear of matching serial numbers?
Were any matched?
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Yeah, would be nice to know if the SNs matched...not mentioned in the article.
If they do match, I would suggest politely returning them to the Iranians...the ones who bombed the Revolutionary Guards that is :D
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Originally posted by Viking
I am however a bit surprised at the carelessness of the Iranians.
I have to agree with you. Iran knew the west was watching this deal, so I assume they don't care whether they distance themselves from the evidence or not. It's actually quite provocative.
What I'll never understand is the political stance of denying everything when you and the world knows the truth and you know that they know that you know, etc.
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No one is really denying that "Iran" is involved. The question is "who" in Iran is involved and in what capacity?
This could go many ways. Corruption and little fiefdoms and such are rampant in the Middle East. Militias a good example. Alcohol (like Lebanese whiskey, beer, and Russian vodka) is commonly smuggled through Iraq to Iran. Opium and Heroin at times travels in the other direction on it's way to Europe.
In Iran you have to consider the intentions of it's government, it's religious leadership (a parallel government in it's own right), and the intelligence branches (which seems to be it's own shadowy power base, much like the one in Pakistan).
The question is if the arms from Iran are sanctioned by their government? Or by the religious leaders? Possible? Yes. No proof presented as yet. Iraqi forces can be getting that equipment from the black market or unsanctioned rouge groups. Iranian police and intelligence agencies may be well aware of the conduit these arms and munitions are getting to Iraq though, and chose to look the other way.
Iran is certainly providing monetary funds to Iraqi Shiis groups, which would facilitate them purchasing arms over the black market, which incidentally come from Iran among other sources.
Sorry, nothing in the Middle East is ever simple or straight forward.
And if they are, what course does the U.S. take? Openly confront Iran? Simple enough for Iran to restrict oil flow out of the Persian Gulf.... thus creating world-wide economic panic. They quite literally may have us over a (oil) barrel. That is the fault of America... it's citizens, it's (lack of) leadership in government, and it's self-involved corporate leaders.
Pick your cliche: Sow the sky, reap the whirlwind. Time to pay the Piper. So long as the United States is dependent on oil from the Middle East, it will cost America heavily in terms of taxpayer money and the lives of it's soldiers.
You want it simple: Oil = gold + blood. That simple.
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Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
That on 9/11 everywhre in iran there were demonstrations against the terroristic attack against the WTC - while the arabs were celebrating the attack could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the sunnite Al Kaida and that the mprisoned Al Kaida members in Iran are allowed to be interrogated by international analysts could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the Taliban could also be ignored.
Now the TV stations show that the bad bad iranians are delivering weapons to the shi ite iraquis.
But:
Why there are no reports that Saudi Arabia is the main financial supportor of Al Kaida and Taliban?
Why there are no reports that the pakistani secret police protects Mullah Omar - one of the most important leaders of the taliban. That in NW Pakistan the whole pashtuni region became the support centre for the Taliban who kill allied soldiers in SE-Afghanistan? That there are the main recruiting stations of the Taliban?
Its easy to blame Iran for this and that.
But to ignore the fact that so called US friends and allies like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the main supporters of Taliban and Al Kaida could result in very bad consequences.
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Originally posted by babek-
Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
But:
Why there are no reports that Saudi Arabia is the main financial supportor of Al Kaida and Taliban?
Why there are no reports that the pakistani secret police protects Mullah Omar - one of the most important leaders of the taliban. That in NW Pakistan the whole pashtuni region became the support centre for the Taliban who kill allied soldiers in SE-Afghanistan? That there are the main recruiting stations of the Taliban?
We buy a lot of oil from, and sell lot's of arms to, the first. Besides, the Saudi family been making a list of those "with them", and those "against them" for years..... I giggle with anticipation of the eventual "Night of the Long Knives, part duex".
We call the second an "ally" in the "Long War", and try to support it's "government" (the one calling itself the President, not the Intelligence agencies that do their own thing....). Going into Pakistan might topple it's "government".
See.... never simple.
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Do we think that an iranian/US war would turn out any different than the one we are in?
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Do we think that an iranian/US war would turn out any different than the one we are in?
Hi WH,
Does it matter what we think?
We thought Iraq had WMD's....(me I think they did and ditched em)
Tons of politicians , some running for a VERY high office agreed , stated they agreed , made speeches that they agreed , now say they didn't mean it or were lied to or whatever other excuse they can come up with to make them seem right or deny ever saying anything. EVEN if you have it on record.
We as the American people don't have a say other than a vote. Thats it.
And what we "Think" means nothing. Cause in the end , we're just going to be told what they want us to think and believe. Media will report what goes along with thier particular agenda.
We can think what we like and what we percieve to be the truth....and all we can do is vote that way....mean while.....Washington , State and Local governments will continue to screw us all.
Still though....I can't think of anyplace I'd rather live.
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we should bomb Austria
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Originally posted by babek-
Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
That on 9/11 everywhre in iran there were demonstrations against the terroristic attack against the WTC - while the arabs were celebrating the attack could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the sunnite Al Kaida and that the mprisoned Al Kaida members in Iran are allowed to be interrogated by international analysts could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the Taliban could also be ignored.
Now the TV stations show that the bad bad iranians are delivering weapons to the shi ite iraquis.
But:
Why there are no reports that Saudi Arabia is the main financial supportor of Al Kaida and Taliban?
Why there are no reports that the pakistani secret police protects Mullah Omar - one of the most important leaders of the taliban. That in NW Pakistan the whole pashtuni region became the support centre for the Taliban who kill allied soldiers in SE-Afghanistan? That there are the main recruiting stations of the Taliban?
Its easy to blame Iran for this and that.
But to ignore the fact that so called US friends and allies like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the main supporters of Taliban and Al Kaida could result in very bad consequences.
Easy...
Saudi = good
Iran = bad
Pakistan = bad but co-operative so then good
Tronsky
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Originally posted by babek-
Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
That on 9/11 everywhre in iran there were demonstrations against the terroristic attack against the WTC - while the arabs were celebrating the attack could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the sunnite Al Kaida and that the mprisoned Al Kaida members in Iran are allowed to be interrogated by international analysts could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the Taliban could also be ignored.
While they haven't openly supported the Taliban previously, there are reports they are helping the allies of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is the former prime minister that is responsible for a great deal of the attacks against coalition forces that Iran openly supports. Iran also allowed Al-Queda high ranking members use Iran as a transit point in escaping from Afghanistan. The old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is alive and well for the mullahs and the Revolutionary Guard, which are the true powers that govern Iran.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
While they haven't openly supported the Taliban previously, there are reports they are helping the allies of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is the former prime minister that is responsible for a great deal of the attacks against coalition forces that Iran openly supports. Iran also allowed Al-Queda high ranking members use Iran as a transit point in escaping from Afghanistan. The old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is alive and well for the mullahs and the Revolutionary Guard, which are the true powers that govern Iran.
ack-ack
That "the enemy of my enemy..." is an arab saying - surely not an iranian.
Especially the mullahs and the revolutionary guards are fanatic shi ites.
The Al Kaida defines all shi ites als sub-humans who should be eliminated.
Just check the quotes of Al Zarkawi in his videos before he was finally killed.
The Taliban used the same definition.
The sunnite Al Kaida operates in iraq with suicide attacks against shi ite targets - like mosques, market paces, recruiting stations and so on.
Its propaganda to say that Iran an the sunnite terrorists would cooperate in any way. They are enemies - defining each other as heretics.
So - no room for the arab saying.
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Originally posted by babek-
Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
Yea....Sure Babek. Maybe if your a nazi?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Quotes....(The Good Guy)
“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,”
“There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world, ... The World without Zionism.”
“As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,”
"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets."
We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."
"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless."
"The West claims that more than six million Jews were killed in World War II and to compensate for that they established and support Israel. If it is true that the Jews were killed in Europe, why should Israel be established in the East, in Palestine?"
# "If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"
"Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."
Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."
"[There is] no significant need for the United States."
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And yet there are 20 odd synagogues, a jewish MP, and 1 of the 4 jewish charity hospitals worldwide all in Tehran...
Tronsky
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Good point, Tronski. The guy's crazier than we thought.
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Cav, this is the part where you take this opportunity to see things from a different perspective.
Aristotle:
"I is the mark of an intelligent mind to be able to entertain an idea without necesarily accepting it."
Like you were supposed to when that thought-criminal rattled your cage for all it was worth.
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Originally posted by babek-
Ok - Iran ist the bad guy.
That on 9/11 everywhre in iran there were demonstrations against the terroristic attack against the WTC - while the arabs were celebrating the attack could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the sunnite Al Kaida and that the mprisoned Al Kaida members in Iran are allowed to be interrogated by international analysts could be ignored.
That Iran always fought against the Taliban could also be ignored.
Now the TV stations show that the bad bad iranians are delivering weapons to the shi ite iraquis.
Its easy to blame Iran for this and that.
See thats the mistake GW made with his axis of evil speach.
He didnt bother to seperate the Iranian government from its people.
The people of Iran held the demonstrations.
The government was and is still very much our enemy.
Though the A of E speach may very well have turned its people against the US too
GWs people should have known better. In politics it isnt always what you say as much as it is how you say it.
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Originally posted by moot
Cav, this is the part where you take this opportunity to see things from a different perspective.
Like you were supposed to when that thought-criminal rattled your cage for all it was worth.
Okay Moot. I'm a Lutheran. But let me entertain the idea from another perspective. Say....A Jew's....
Hmmmm. He's still the enemy. And an even bigger prettythanghole.
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Both the Austrian Government and the CEO of Steyr have confirmed that no enquiries have been made by the US authorities regarding the serial numbers of these alleged rifles. One wonders therefore how Tony Snow et al quite so sure of these allegations, given that these particular weapons are so widely sold and copied.
Source. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/wiran114.xml)
One wonders if the guns in question are being stored in the same location as Saddam's mobile WMD labs, his shopping basket full of nigerian yellowcake and the flowers with which the Iraqi populace were supposed to welcome their liberators back in 2003?
Meanwhile, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Pace admits that while he's sure Iranian fighters and materiel are finding their way into Iraq (not unsurprisingly given the inability of the US to maintain security), he has seen no evidence to suggest that this is the doing of the Iranian government.
Source. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6413967,00.html)
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I understood your post as putting babek in the same basket as mashmoujinahad & co.
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So ... you're invading Austria next? heh.
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Originally posted by ramzey
we should bomb Austria
NO BLOOD FOR BEER! :noid
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Wednesday that "a part of the Iranian government" is involved in sending deadly explosives into Iraq but acknowledged he didn't know whether top Iranian leaders were responsible.
Full Story (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/14/iraq.iran/index.html)
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Originally posted by Momus--
One wonders if the guns in question are being stored in the same location as Saddam's mobile WMD labs, his shopping basket full of nigerian yellowcake and the flowers with which the Iraqi populace were supposed to welcome their liberators back in 2003?[/URL]
While I don't necessarily agree with all you said in your post, that part was damn funny! :lol
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Originally posted by cav58d
Okay Moot. I'm a Lutheran. But let me entertain the idea from another perspective. Say....A Jew's....
Hmmmm. He's still the enemy. And an even bigger prettythanghole.
Babek is an enemy of the Jews?
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Originally posted by cav58d
Yea....Sure Babek. Maybe if your a nazi?
(...)
I dont think that i am a national-socialist. I also havent rounded up homosexuals, jews, gipsies and/or communists and put them into Arbeit-macht-frei-camps to butcher them.
Nor did the iranians in their history.
In contrary - even while under the influence of the German Reich under the regime of Shah Reza I of the Pahlavi dynasty the iranian jews were not hunted. OK - the iranian homosexuals and the communists were - but thats another topic.
The iranian jews were and are part of the iranians and their history. Thats the reason why still new synagogs are build in Teheran.
Many prominent israeli politicians were born in Iran before they started their career in Israel - even the israeli president Mosche Katzav.
But that was not my question.
Actually the US-troops are fighting in Iraq against the suicide-bomber terrorists of Al Kaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
And its a fact that the shi ite Iran is the bitter enemy of the fundamentalistic-sunnite Al Kaida and Taliban, while Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan are strong supporters of these terrorist organisations who kill and wound so many US-soldiers.
So my question was:
Why there are no TV-reports about this fact? That the so called "friends of the USA" Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are supporting the Al Kaida and the Taliban?
Its OK, that there are reports of the bad Iran. But why not - alt least - also reports of how Saudi-Arabia and pakistan not only helped to keep the US-enemies Al Kaida and taliban alive but helping them to be able to fight and kill US-soldiers until today?
Is such a fact not worth to be reported or is there a reason why this shouldnt be reported?
That was the simple question - and while you brought many quotes of what the iranian president said I couldnt find any answer to the question I put in into the discussion.
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the problem isn't persia. as babek states the persians have historically been very open, very laisse faire with regards to other cultures and religions. the problem is compound several nutjobs and the bad influences of a bloody, filthy religion ushered in by the arabs some 1450 odd years ago when the arabs finally quashed the sassanian empire at what was arguably the height of persian civilization.
keep in mind that if you are white your roots can be traced to persia.
oddly enough or perhaps predictably enough it was the openess of persian society that allowed the murderous arabs the ability to gain access to the culture.
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The truth is there is no truth. In the complex world of political alliances and religious dogmas and idealogies, particularly the middle east. Nothing is quite as it seems.
There is a tendency among many people to try and simplify things into good guy/bad guy scenarios. To soundbyte everything into simple slogans.
Presidents do it all the time and eventually look ridiculous. Like or not Babek. The President of Iran is not helping his country's image with his ludicrous anti Israeli pantomine. His absurd comments on the holocaust demonstrate he's either an idiot or a cynical liar. He really is a theatrical bad guy and plays into the hands of people who want to believe the worst about Iran. But he was elected by Iranians and we must assume he represents their views. If he goes out next election we know different. But right now like one or two other blowhards he is playing the anti American card for all it's worth.
On the other hand President Bush fell into the same trap but unlike Iran. America is a resolutely free country and even his generals contradict him. His credibility is shot.
A couple of years from now, US President XXXXXX (fill in the gap yourself) could be visiting Iran to be greeted by cheering crowds of Iranians waving the stars and stripes. During his visit he condems the actions of country X (a former ally) and promises drastic measures against them if they won't cease and desist.
That's politics and life in general, shifting sands. Is Iran the bad guy? Yes. for now. Next week, who knows.
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Originally posted by FBplmmr
NO BLOOD FOR BEER! :noid
I dunno. Even liberals might dissagree on that one ;)
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(http://www.simonsays.com/assets/isbn/0689874332/C_0689874332.jpg)
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Originally posted by cpxxx
The truth is there is no truth. In the complex world of political alliances and religious dogmas and idealogies, particularly the middle east. Nothing is quite as it seems.
There is a tendency among many people to try and simplify things into good guy/bad guy scenarios. To soundbyte everything into simple slogans.
Presidents do it all the time and eventually look ridiculous. Like or not Babek. The President of Iran is not helping his country's image with his ludicrous anti Israeli pantomine.
(...)
And again my question:
I accept that you define Iran as an enemy - thats Ok for me. Logical with the arguments you pointed out.
The question was: Why not defining also Saudi-Arabia and pakistan as enemies. There are much more and reliable proofs that these countries support extremely the Al Kaida and the Taliban than the MDW-proofs of Iraq or the iranian austrian superrifles.
But no one seems to care that with the help of Saudi Arabia and pakistan the Al Kaida terrorists and Taliban terrorist are able to hurt and kill US-soldiers.
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Originally posted by babek-
The question was: Why not defining also Saudi-Arabia and pakistan as enemies. There are much more and reliable proofs that these countries support extremely the Al Kaida and the Taliban than the MDW-proofs of Iraq or the iranian austrian superrifles.
because you eliminate your enemies one at a time, or are you impatient and want everything done yesterday.
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Interesting strategy.
So instead of eliminating the main supporters of Taliban an d Al Kaida one by time it is wiser to eliminate Saddams Iraq (which was a brutal regime but far away from supporting both groups who were involved in 9/11) and now Iran, which is an old enemy of Al Kaida and taliban?
Thats a strange logic...
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Iran is not the enemy, the govt of iran is the enemy, you work to change the govt, it's much cheaper that way. the same with saudi-arabia.
such things take time, what is your hurry?
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Many iranians also dont like the government.
There have already been elections where Ahmadinedjads puppets suffered severe losses - like Bush in the recent innerpolitic elections.
But there is one thing you should know about iranians. In the moment when foreigners attack Iran the people will end any opposition and support the actual government. So this would only help Ahmadinedjad. Sometimes I think that Mr. A. hopes that Mr. B. attacks Iran in order to stabilize the Mullah regime.
The same happened when Saddam and his arabs invaded Iran. In these times Iran was in the middle of an inner political fight. The shah and his SAVAK-terorregime have been deposed and many groups were fighting for power.
All these ended in the moment, when the arabs attacked Iran. And so Khomeini and the mullahs could stabilize their regime.
The same will happen again.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
And yet there are 20 odd synagogues, a jewish MP, and 1 of the 4 jewish charity hospitals worldwide all in Tehran...
Tronsky
And didn't the Iranian government a few years ago hold a witch hunt against their Jewish population? I seem to recall reading about mass arrests and trials for them being "Zionist spies" and allies of the "Great Satan".
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And didn't the Iranian government a few years ago hold a witch hunt against their Jewish population? I seem to recall reading about mass arrests and trials for them being "Zionist spies" and allies of the "Great Satan".
ack-ack
There were also reports in the last year that all iranian jews had to wear a yellow badge - ordered by the iranian parliament.
Finally it became clear that such a nonsense was never planned or performed but lies published by exile iranians.
The iranian jews have been always seen als iranians by the iranians. By those from the pre-islamic time and those of the islamic time. The iranian people are not only the aryan iranians - like the persians, medians and kurds - but also the non aryan people - like semitic arabs, semitic jews or turkish azerbeidjani.
These all are iranians and were never isolated and killed like the jews in european nations, where often jews were seen as foreigners although they lived for generations in the country.