Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hawco on February 14, 2007, 11:46:55 AM
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After reading the "Wheelgun or semi auto" thread I got thinking about when would you be able to use your firearm legally?
I know each state is different and that home defence would be a no brainer, But what about instances of that mall shooter in Utah? If you used a firearm to take him out, I'm presuming you would have dozens of Agencies, the ACLU etc all over your prettythang.
Or maybe you see a car jacking/ violent crime going on? what then?
I'm just curious to try and get a handle on some scenarios as to when you could use it.
I don't own a firearm, but I used them extensivley in my previous occupation and it was very clear cut (Counter insurency/ Rapid reaction team- Millitary)
But out in Civillian life, there seems to be more shades of gray than anything else.
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better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
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In all seriousness, if you have one available go take a CCW class in your area. That will likely answer your questions and it would be related to the pertinent state laws you would have to be familiar with. Even if you have no intention of carrying, the education shouldn't hurt you a bit.
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it's really a legal thing, check the NRA web site, they can explain better than me.
for you to be in danger the assaliant must show intent, have the means and have the ability to harm you.
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My instructor told our CCP class that if you are a victim of a crime on the street and you use your firearm in defense, be prepared to be a victim again in court.
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did u give him a hankie & tell him the politix of victimhood are for libruls b4 or after u laffd at him?
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It entirely depends on the law in each state. Here in WA they've got fairly sensible regs. You don't need a permit or license to own a firearm, you can carry at home or at work (if allowed by the company) without a CCP and the fee isn't completely horrific. Most CCP laws state you can not carry in certain areas, such as sporting events, churches, government buildings (city hall, courthouse) and the like. In certain states, they get a little anal about it. No carry on public transportation like buses or subways. In others, there's no trouble. About the only thing WA should add is a requirement for CCP class before getting the permit. As far as actually using your hog-leg, you can use lethal force to prevent a felony or bodily harm. That doesn't apply only to CCP holders, either; that's for everyone. If you have a firearm, you can use it at any time to prevent a felony you witness in progress or to protect someone from being injured or killed.
Car jacking? You're green to shoot only if the offender is armed and you've got a clear lane of fire. Say he's in the middle lane trying to jack someone else, with a school bus in the left turn lane. You can't fire until either you maneuver to clear the bus, or the bus moves out of the area. Say you're in a bank trying to get vacation cash and one of those "White Power" goobers tries robbing it. That's a felony (federal) so you can use your pocket cannon. Robber's armed with a Ak and wearing armor? Aim for the head. Home broken into? You can only fire if the perp is armed and is threatening you or another person in the house. You can threaten him with your howitzer, however, even if he isn't armed. Should he snatch a knife from your kitchen, well, buckshot doesn't tickle. This advice isn't from a Legal Eagle, and generally only applies to WA, so don't take it as gospel!
Xargos,
Again it depends on state law and how gnarly the prosecutor is going to get. I seriously doubt shooting a rapist to stop a rape in progress will get you thrown in the hoosegow. Same goes for firing on someone who's shooting at a cop. However, I've read of a few cases where the legal CCP holder was charged and convicted of murder because he did something stupid after a perfectly clean shoot. In one instance, the idiot decided to let the air out of a coke-addict's tires and got caught by said addict. He fired when Coke-boy charged him from across the street with a 28-inch club. Did Smart Guy stick around? Nope, he pitched his weapon into a river and hid out of town for several days before turning himself in. Combine that with an ultra-yuppie prosecution staff and you get a real mess. In another instance, a man was defending his very pregnant wife from the neighborhood addict with lethal force. Meth-boy was armed with a 4-foot length of heavy chain, Joe Schmuck with a .38 Special, range was about 18 feet. Shot him twice right there in the couple's own driveway. However, the neighbors told police that neither one of them lifted a finger to help the bleeding junkie. They just stood there while he bled to death, for 15 minutes until officers arrived. He was charged with negligent homicide and convicted. If he'd gotten his wife into the house and called the cops, he probably would've been cleared. Both of these instances were described by Massad Ayoob in the '93 Handguns Annual, so they are far from recent examples. Still, it could happen.
You do have one thing bang-on, though, Xargos. Some families will sue if you kill the person who attacked. Should this happen it can be a real crap-shoot; you might be found not liable, you might be found liable for literally millions. It really can go either way.
If you're going to carry concealed, be smart. Take the classes (Thunder Ranch in Lakeview, OR is spendy but well worth it, same for Gunsite in AZ) educate yourself on the legal-end of things, even have a sit-down with one of the prosecutors to get the full skinny if you can. Some lawyers offer a "free consultation" you can use; take advantage of it! Call 'em up and ask to speak with them about the legal side of using a CCP. Talk to officers, get their take on it. Things vary so much from state to state you really need to get an attorney's take on it. Most states have their CCP laws online, so hit their legislative website and take a gander. WA, for example, has reciprocity with about a dozen other states. A CCP permit issued in WA is good in those states, and their CCPs are good here. Florida has a non-resident permit available. Legally, it's a mess, so check!
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/global.gif)
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Originally posted by Yeager
better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
I dunnu, would YOU want to be judged by 12 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/confused0043.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
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Some states allow people to shoot to protect property & life, others are more strict... depends where you live.
Not too log ago here in LA...
Random citizen William A. Masters II was walking his dog at 1am, carrying CCW w/o a permit. Strolling along Masters wrote down the license plate # of a vehicle he believed belonged to two suspects (later ID'd as Cesar Rene Arce and David Hilo) he observed spray painting an underpass. Masters continued on his way.
Noticing Masters had noted their plate #, Arce & Hilo angrily confronted Masters, producing a screwdriver. Fearing for his safety, Masters produced a gun killing Arce and wounding Hilo.
The DAs office ruled Masters acted in self defense and cleared him for the shooting, then promptly charged him for carrying a loaded firearm in public (12031PC), a misdemeanor.
edit: wanted to add Masters paid a fine, about $500 I think, and got his gun back. So the .gov here in LA will basically tax you $500 to defend yourself. In reality the $500 "fine" is more symbolic than anything, the .govs way of sending that message that protecting yourself is frowned upon.
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You couldn't pay me enough to live in Kalifornia.
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Originally posted by flakbait
It entirely depends on the law in each state. Here in WA they've got fairly sensible regs. You don't need a permit or license to own a firearm, you can carry at home or at work (if allowed by the company) without a CCP and the fee isn't completely horrific. Most CCP laws state you can not carry in certain areas, such as sporting events, churches, government buildings (city hall, courthouse) and the like. In certain states, they get a little anal about it. No carry on public transportation like buses or subways. In others, there's no trouble. About the only thing WA should add is a requirement for CCP class before getting the permit. As far as actually using your hog-leg, you can use lethal force to prevent a felony or bodily harm. That doesn't apply only to CCP holders, either; that's for everyone. If you have a firearm, you can use it at any time to prevent a felony you witness in progress or to protect someone from being injured or killed.
Car jacking? You're green to shoot only if the offender is armed and you've got a clear lane of fire. Say he's in the middle lane trying to jack someone else, with a school bus in the left turn lane. You can't fire until either you maneuver to clear the bus, or the bus moves out of the area. Say you're in a bank trying to get vacation cash and one of those "White Power" goobers tries robbing it. That's a felony (federal) so you can use your pocket cannon. Robber's armed with a Ak and wearing armor? Aim for the head. Home broken into? You can only fire if the perp is armed and is threatening you or another person in the house. You can threaten him with your howitzer, however, even if he isn't armed. Should he snatch a knife from your kitchen, well, buckshot doesn't tickle. This advice isn't from a Legal Eagle, and generally only applies to WA, so don't take it as gospel!
Xargos,
Again it depends on state law and how gnarly the prosecutor is going to get. I seriously doubt shooting a rapist to stop a rape in progress will get you thrown in the hoosegow. Same goes for firing on someone who's shooting at a cop. However, I've read of a few cases where the legal CCP holder was charged and convicted of murder because he did something stupid after a perfectly clean shoot. In one instance, the idiot decided to let the air out of a coke-addict's tires and got caught by said addict. He fired when Coke-boy charged him from across the street with a 28-inch club. Did Smart Guy stick around? Nope, he pitched his weapon into a river and hid out of town for several days before turning himself in. Combine that with an ultra-yuppie prosecution staff and you get a real mess. In another instance, a man was defending his very pregnant wife from the neighborhood addict with lethal force. Meth-boy was armed with a 4-foot length of heavy chain, Joe Schmuck with a .38 Special, range was about 18 feet. Shot him twice right there in the couple's own driveway. However, the neighbors told police that neither one of them lifted a finger to help the bleeding junkie. They just stood there while he bled to death, for 15 minutes until officers arrived. He was charged with negligent homicide and convicted. If he'd gotten his wife into the house and called the cops, he probably would've been cleared. Both of these instances were described by Massad Ayoob in the '93 Handguns Annual, so they are far from recent examples. Still, it could happen.
You do have one thing bang-on, though, Xargos. Some families will sue if you kill the person who attacked. Should this happen it can be a real crap-shoot; you might be found not liable, you might be found liable for literally millions. It really can go either way.
If you're going to carry concealed, be smart. Take the classes (Thunder Ranch in Lakeview, OR is spendy but well worth it, same for Gunsite in AZ) educate yourself on the legal-end of things, even have a sit-down with one of the prosecutors to get the full skinny if you can. Some lawyers offer a "free consultation" you can use; take advantage of it! Call 'em up and ask to speak with them about the legal side of using a CCP. Talk to officers, get their take on it. Things vary so much from state to state you really need to get an attorney's take on it. Most states have their CCP laws online, so hit their legislative website and take a gander. WA, for example, has reciprocity with about a dozen other states. A CCP permit issued in WA is good in those states, and their CCPs are good here. Florida has a non-resident permit available. Legally, it's a mess, so check!
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/global.gif)
Things are a little different here in Indiana. You may use a firearm to prevent certain felony crimes, typically dangerous ones. I don't think that you would be cleared if you shot someone trying to steal your neighbors car. You must be extremely cautious though, because if you fatally wound the person, better have your ducks in a row. In order to be cleared in the event that the subject dies, you must reasonably believe that yours, or someone elses life is in danger. I personally take the stance that if someone decides to break into my house in the middle of the night, no matter what the intent is, my family is in danger. I don't care if they are armed or not, they will be fired upon with extreme prejudice. If you fire upon them though, make sure it hits their front half, because if you hit them in the back of the thigh, it is assumed by the prosecutor that the subject is running away, and therefore cannot be posing a threat. Lawsuit city!
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My take on the mall shooting is this. Guy A walks into a mall and starts randomly blasting away at people. Guy B has a CCW and a valid permit. Guy B is 100% justified in the use of deadly force because he is within range of guy A and guy A is threating everyone including guy B with deadly force.
I KNOW I would have popped him and not thought twice about it. Once I knew the subject was down for the count I would have unloaded my weapon, placed it on the ground and waited for the cops to show up with my permit and ID in my hand.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
I dunnu, would YOU want to be judged by 12 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/confused0043.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
getting harder and harder to do that anymore around here.
Doctors cant even get an exemption
I've been hearing rumors they arent going to allow your death to be an excuse anymore either;)
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If you believe the Brady campaign you'd think that we in Florida have open season on Brits and other foreigners vacationing in our state. I wish, and I'd start with all the folks driving cars with Ontario plates. We've got snowbirds out the butt down here all saying Ehh and driving with their lights on. The flock could use a little thinning. In a special deal we'd off all the extra New Yorkers as honorary foreigners....only problem with that is most of them are registered to vote both in NY as well as Florida so some politician would probably take issue.
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Flakbait, I can understand your remarks towards me since I have not been back on the BBS after two years absents. But let me state very clearly that I believe you have a duty to protect yourself, and others, from those who wish harm towards others. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I was simply stating what my instructor said, and he is the number one SLED instructor for the State of South Carolina.
And it just might be that I'm really too drunk to be saying anything sensible after a half bottle of scotch.
I love all of you... even you commie democrats., hiccup.
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We all have a duty to protect our fellow citizens from any kind of tyranny... You have to do what is right no matter what.
If you are unsure what is right or want the laws defined or simply wish to know as much as possible then you are being smart and cautious... such a person would take a concealed carry course.
In the end.. he would take what he learned and use it but still.. he would do what is the right thing.
lazs
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
getting harder and harder to do that anymore around here.
Doctors cant even get an exemption
I've been hearing rumors they arent going to allow your death to be an excuse anymore either;)
Why not it, works for keeping them voting in places like Chicago.
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Originally posted by Yeager
better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Originally posted by tedrbr
I dunnu, would YOU want to be judged by 12 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?
It's funny, your post appears to be arguing that it is better to be dead and carried by 6 pallbearers than it is to risk facing an incompetent jury.
I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's the logical deconstruction of your post.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Or maybe you see a car jacking/ violent crime going on? what then?
If I see a violent crime going on.. I'd think.. ooops they should have been carrying... my gun and all I have done to carry it is for my protection and my families protection. If you want protection.. call the police.. they should get there some time today.
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It seems like you would have to think through the legal implications, deal with the incident and then think about getting your story straight for afterwards all at the same time. Makes me wonder if it's even worth the while, what happens if you get some Proscecutor that's up for election for instance? Looks like you would be screwed big time, there's just no clear right or wrong really is there?
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Do the right thing, worry about consequences later. If society punishes you for doing good, then society needs to be changed. The best way to handle these problems is head on, so stay honest, be straightforward, and don't plot and plan a hundred ways to CYA.
Just do what's right.
If a gunman is shooting up a mall and either of my sons had a pistol and knew how to use it, I'd be proud of him for killing the shooter. I'd also expect him to be unflinchingly honest and cooperative with law enforcement afterwards.
If you find that lying is the solution to your problem, then how good of a solution can it be?