Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: tedrbr on February 14, 2007, 05:04:45 PM
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Don't you hate when photos show up with few details to go along with them? It's frustrating isn't it.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/wacoearly.jpg)
Well, apparently not too far off. Eagerly awaiting my first "flight" in it. Not sure I'm too crazy about the skin though.
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Hmmm. We're getting a Korea arena too? That's a Korea marked A26 despite the removal of the red bar in the star and bar.:noid
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decent photoshop ;)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a26binvader.jpg)
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Oc, your avatar is so kyoot it makes my teeth hurt...
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Photoshop, Octavius? No, no PhotoShop involved.
Nice catch Guppy35.
Guess this one may have been better?
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a26new7gc7.jpg)
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I meant from a separate game.. right? :) Very nice model though!
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looks like it would be a good town killer.
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The A26 still looks like an A20 with 2 extra guns in the nose to me.:noid
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would be a cherry ride
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Originally posted by nirvana
The A26 still looks like an A20 with 2 extra guns in the nose to me.:noid
And the additional 6 .50's in the wings? Or 6K bomb load? Or 355 mph top speed at 15 K? Rockets? B model with 75mm in nose?
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14 50 cals [homer simpson voice] mmmmm carnage [/homer simpson voice]
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I think I have that skin in my FS2004 hanger. I'll have to check.
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Wants b25h 75mm cannon can hear gv whines now
http://www.gunships.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=toprated&cat=0&pos=5
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Originally posted by rod367th
Wants b25h 75mm cannon can hear gv whines now
http://www.gunships.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=toprated&cat=0&pos=5
A-26B had option for 75mm nose gun too. All 30 block 5's delivered that way. More field refits possible, especially those Invaders with the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers", who were often refitting B-25's with 75mm's in their AO.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a26-213-1.jpg)
Hornet33 - I think I have that skin in my FS2004 hanger. I'll have to check.
Not yet, unless you are in the Project.
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Basing it on aesthetics, it looks like an A-20;)
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Special nose load-out?
(http://www.amer-net.com/731st/moonshot.jpg)
wrngway
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^^^^^
:rofl
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
Special nose load-out?
(http://www.amer-net.com/731st/moonshot.jpg)
wrngway
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Cheek guns.
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Feh. you got nothing on my B-29 pic.
I mean... the secret development shot on the B-29 that i posted.
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<----manages to stifle impending coffee spewage, LMAO!!:rofl :lol :rofl
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:lol aka Pa deuce.
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
Special nose load-out?
(http://www.amer-net.com/731st/moonshot.jpg)
wrngway
to quote CCR: "I see a bad moon risin'":D
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
Special nose load-out?
(http://www.amer-net.com/731st/moonshot.jpg)
wrngway
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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HTC please delete this post and ban this person from AH play for the following reasons.
1.) introduction of pornographic materials to a website frequented by underage children.
2.) This potentially threatens bomber pilots as the fighter group will request that all bombers be equiped in said manner.
3.) Presenting a picture of the B-25 with an inncorrectally modeled bomb sight.
Thank you for your continued support.
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B-25??????????????:huh :huh :huh :huh :huh
Bronk
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Originally posted by skycaptn
3.) Presenting a picture of the B-25 with an inncorrectally modeled bomb sight.
SkyCaptn, please report back to training for aircraft identification refresher classes. That is an A-26C Invader with the front-rear (rear-front?) armament adaptation. Not a B-25.
Thus, we'll have to consider your post and request both null and void at this time. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
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Originally posted by Ball
Feh. you got nothing on my B-29 pic.
I mean... the secret development shot on the B-29 that i posted.
Couldn't use the cockpit pics I've got..... would have been a dead giveaway. Of course, you're pics blew it with the disparity of what was out the cockpit and shown on the clipboard map, IIRC?
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/happy0201.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
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gotta add some bait for the fishies.
the speedo was way off too.
was seeing if the zOMG ITS A B29!!!!!!!! effect would blinker them.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
SkyCaptn, please report back to training for aircraft identification refresher classes. That is an A-26C Invader with the front-rear (rear-front?) armament adaptation. Not a B-25.
Thus, we'll have to consider your post and request both null and void at this time. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Please remove yourself from the gene pool for having no sense of humor
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Originally posted by tedrbr
A-26B had option for 75mm nose gun too. All 30 block 5's delivered that way. More field refits possible, especially those Invaders with the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers", who were often refitting B-25's with 75mm's in their AO.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/a26-213-1.jpg)
Not yet, unless you are in the Project.
The 3rd BG flew a mixture of B-25s, A-20s and A-24s. They didn't receive the A-26 until the invasion of Okinawa. There weren't any active front line units that had a 75mm installed in the A-26B. The only A-26 that was ever outfitted with a 75mm was one of three prototypes outfitted with various armements in 1941 for testing.
There is nothing in the 3rd BG history that indicates they did any field modifications on the A-26s they received towards the end of the war to add the 75mm gun.
The only bombers that did have them and use them were the units that used the B-25G and B-25H.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The 3rd BG flew a mixture of B-25s, A-20s and A-24s. They didn't receive the A-26 until the invasion of Okinawa. There weren't any active front line units that had a 75mm installed in the A-26B. The only A-26 that was ever outfitted with a 75mm was one of three prototypes outfitted with various armements in 1941 for testing.
There is nothing in the 3rd BG history that indicates they did any field modifications on the A-26s they received towards the end of the war to add the 75mm gun.
The only bombers that did have them and use them were the units that used the B-25G and B-25H.
ack-ack
Actually, the first 30 planes from the Block 5 production all came with the 75mm and 2 .50's installed on them, in the nose, when they were delivered.
I've seen other references to a third "prototype" listing the 75mm, but the third prototype, the A-26A, was a night fighter version that lost out to the P-61 Black Widow. There are also several very small/limited block productions that would indicate outfitting of the planes that were atypical, but I've not been able to find the details to them as to how they were outfitted for delivery. The "B"-model could be outfitted in six different configurations with 75mm, 37mm, and various numbers of .50's, and quite possibly the prototype was delivered with the 75mm, among the other weapons packages, which could be swapped out. The "C"-model was the glass nose.
"• A-26B-5: (30 aircraft), without the camouflage, and with 1 × 75 mm cannon in the nose plus 2 × 0.50 in (12,7 mm) machine guns on the left."
I'll grant you that finding details about the A-26B's and C's modifications and as how exactly they were used during WWII, especially in the Pacific Theater, is hard to come by through an internet search. Conversions could be done in the field in a matter of hours, and many later improvements to the A-26 (canopy and wing guns for example) could be retrofitted to older models easily enough. Additionally, the B and C model noses were switched back and forth among many planes, which has caused confusion later in restoration projects and A-26 fan sites, often getting B and C versions confused. (You also see B-26's and A-26's confused in many sites).
Basically, it's the LACK if operational information details regarding the A-26 in theater that is the problem. They were used in the last 7 to 8 months of the war. By the end of WWII, 48 squadrons of A-26's were in operation among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least. This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa. But the details are hard to find.
I mention the 3rd Bomber Group (aka the 3rd Attack Group) primarily due to the efforts of Army Captain Paul I. "Pappy" Gunn, and the 3rd's known history of modifying their planes to conduct their missions..... which is where many of the gun heavy "A-25's"(or B-25 strafers) and B-25's with 75mm nose guns others talk about in the boards generally come from.
B-25's with 75mm added generally got 20 shots out of them before the airframe was compromised. Which resulted in grouping up to eight .50's in the nose of the A-26 stacked vertically, as opposed to earlier 6 nose guns in a more horizontal arrangement. But, if 75mm equipped A-26's were used at all in any BG, I'd bet it would be the Grim Reapers.
Plus, I have not been able to find any history on the first 30 - 75mm equipped A-26's that were delivered. Refitted? Fielded? All used as trainers? No details. The operational information on the Invaders themselves for the last 7 to 8 months of the war is pretty sparse. I know what the plane was capable of doing, and how it *could* be outfitted, but nothing as to what was actually done. The BG BDA reports are all available, but not the individual squadrons.
A-26 Invader could carry 2 torpedoes too, but I've never found any indication that it ever did so. It could be fitted with 37mm's, but no evidence that any were ordered from the plant like this.
(BTW, 3rd BG was also the LAST A-20 Havoc equipped operational unit in the war.)
Did come across WWII A-26 Invader Flying Tips.... about 15 minutes:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/A-26.html (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/A-26.html)
A PDF copy of the A-26 Invader's Pilot's Training Manual can be downloaded here:
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?FileType=fs2k4&loc=downloads&page=downloads&Category=other#download (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?FileType=fs2k4&loc=downloads&page=downloads&Category=other#download)
About the 9th file down: A-26_TraMan.zip
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Basically, it's the LACK if operational information details regarding the A-26 in theater that is the problem. They were used in the last 7 to 8 months of the war. By the end of WWII, 48 squadrons of A-26's were in operation among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least. This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa. But the details are hard to find.
That makes it sound like there was a lot of operational use when it really was a LATE war bird. 4 9th AF groups got it starting in September 44 with the 416th BG that converted and then flew it's first operational sortie on November 17, 1944. So you get 4 groups that flew it with the first operating it a little over 5 months. B25s in the ETO and MTO from the beginning to end.
First I can find with the 5th use of the A26 is the 3rd Attack on July 12, 1945 when 9 of them attacked targets on Formosa. So you have A26s there for about a month before wars end.
B25s there from beginning to end.
It's a beauty of a bird, but I'd sure hope that for historical and operational purposes that we'd get a B25C/D and a gun nosed J before we ever get the 26. Way more uses for it scenario wise etc.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Actually, the first 30 planes from the Block 5 production all came with the 75mm and 2 .50's installed on them, in the nose, when they were delivered.
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Sources?
And as for the 75mm equipped bomber "strafers" such as the B-26G and H, they were withdrawn from PTO shortly after their introduction and transfered to the CBI theater to special air operation squadrons, where they were more successful.
Edit: Further searching shows the XA-26B as the only one that was equipped with a 75mm. This is the one that was used for testing as I had mentioned previously.
XA-26B 1942 = Third prototype; 75mm nose cannon. POP: 1 [41-19588]
Source (http://aerofiles.com/_doug.html)
The most common gun package for the A-26B was 8 to 16 .50 cal machine guns. Some were field fitted to carry more, 12 on the nose, 6 wing mounted .50 cals in addition to the crew served .50s, was one of the more common configurations.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
.......
B25s there from beginning to end.
It's a beauty of a bird, but I'd sure hope that for historical and operational purposes that we'd get a B25C/D and a gun nosed J before we ever get the 26. Way more uses for it scenario wise etc.
Counter:
* The N1K2 we see so much in the arenas had 315 actually built. Very very late war plane, very very limited numbers. All over the two LW arenas. Historical not always the guide followed.
* The B-25 would be more historical in context than an A-26 over the whole war period...... but if arguing for historical, you'll see the He-111 for use in the BoB long before you get your B-25. Maybe the Ju-188 too. B-25 not distinctive enough to win on historical terms compared to what's already in the game, and the American planeset is already heavy as things stand now. If there were a perk-worthy bomber from another country available, I'd be pushing it instead of the A-26...... but the A-26 is the best I see in terms of a perk-ride within the existing game.
* Also, the B-25 is not a perk-worthy plane. Carries a little more than a B-26 a little slower than a B-26. Only argument for it would be use of the 75mm or nose gun conversions. Options that the A-26 had, and ever more of when looking at the B models with 14 forward firing .50's with 400 rpg, and 5 inch rockets available to it. Better speed and performance. More ord options.
* Bomber drivers really could use something other than the Ar-234 Arado to earn and spend perk points on. You hear complaints about buff drivers that "bomb-and-bail", or suicide on their runs. Why not? Not like they need perks for anything they want to fly. Arado not what many want. B-29 would be, but we are not getting it. So, drop, bail, back in the air faster. Give them something else to spend perks on.
* The A-26 could give you 2 bombers, a B "attack bomber", and C "medium penetration bomber" for the time and effort put into 1 plane's development. Both perk worthy rides. Some A-26's were built with 75mm nose gun, whether they saw combat or not, and was still an option they could swap in the field as needed. Give buff and attack plane drivers wanting a spud gun their chance at one. Numerous .50's would be popular too.
The A-26 is perk worthy, and is far more versatile as to options open to it, than the B-25. As to historical, the He-111 would win out over the B-25, IMHO.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
\
Sources?
ack-ack
Wondering when that card would be played:
I got them from Frans Bonné's Warbird's page, but I don't think he cites his sources for all the production numbers, though his research on various war planes is well above most fan sites, and the details are better than most site in regards to the A-26 Invader.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/douga26.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/douga26.html)
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and can I be your personal test pilot tedr? lol i wish
it would be fun to test planes.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Wondering when that card would be played:
I got them from Frans Bonné's Warbird's page, but I don't think he cites his sources for all the production numbers, though his research on various war planes is well above most fan sites, and the details are better than most site in regards to the A-26 Invader.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/douga26.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/douga26.html)
This is from an article that appeared in Air Classics Magazine, August 2002 and written by Michael O'Leary
The third prototype, and last A-26 built at El Segundo, was the XA-26B which had a solid nose fitted with the massive 75mm cannon. Over the course of testing, this nose was modified several times to accommodate changes in the mounting of the 75mm weapon and the addition of a 37mm cannon.
There were problems with late delivery of components from outside manufacturers while the government itself was having difficulties supplying government-furnished equipment (GFE) such as propellers and engines. Also, production tooling was well behind schedule and the non-standard prototype tooling was transferred to the production line so the first six production A-26s were built with this equipment. At this point, the government accused Douglas of not having enough interest in producing weapons of war - concentrating instead on producing a new (and profitable) post-war generation of civil transports (Douglas was designing the huge C-74 transport for the Army and was proposing a civil version known as the DC-7 which in no way was like the DC-7 that went into production. As an apparent form of retribution, the AAF Production Division at Wright Field ordered Douglas to transfer two-thirds of the personnel assigned on the C-74 to the A-26. Also, the AAF instructed Douglas that "no engineers were to be utilized in improving crew comfort or arrangement in cargo planes unless specifically authorized by Wright Field.")
Problems were also becoming apparent with the wing. The A-26 wing was built around eight inboard and eight outboard spars. Each outboard spar was different from its fellow and required a special manufacturing arrangement. The lack of milling machines was a major problem and General Oliver Echols who was attempting to rectify A-26 production problems started giving consideration to using milling machines held by various Boeing production plants until, as he stated, "such time as the machines ordered for the A-26 program are delivered." Sub-contractor Beech Aircraft, who was to make the spars for the A-26s being built at Tulsa, was also awaiting its milling machines.
Problems continued and in a damning indictment for both company and military, it was not until the end of 1944 that the decision was made that the Long Beach plant would produce A-26Bs with a solid nose containing either six or eight machine guns while the Tulsa facility would discontinue building A-26Bs in favor of glass nose A-26Cs. All the while there was a war going on and the aircraft were sorely needed at the combat fronts. During this time, plans for 37mm and 75mm variants joined the night fighter in the heap of discarded A-26 ideas.
Since you need to be a paid subscriber to see the actual magazine article, here is a link that has a copy of the article. It's a very good read on the history of the A-26 from conception to eventual deployment. The above section is on Page 5 of the article.
Invader: Part I (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200208/ai_n9104030/pg_1)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Counter:
* The N1K2 we see so much in the arenas had 315 actually built. Very very late war plane, very very limited numbers. All over the two LW arenas. Historical not always the guide followed.
* The B-25 would be more historical in context than an A-26 over the whole war period...... but if arguing for historical, you'll see the He-111 for use in the BoB long before you get your B-25. Maybe the Ju-188 too. B-25 not distinctive enough to win on historical terms compared to what's already in the game, and the American planeset is already heavy as things stand now. If there were a perk-worthy bomber from another country available, I'd be pushing it instead of the A-26...... but the A-26 is the best I see in terms of a perk-ride within the existing game.
* Also, the B-25 is not a perk-worthy plane. Carries a little more than a B-26 a little slower than a B-26. Only argument for it would be use of the 75mm or nose gun conversions. Options that the A-26 had, and ever more of when looking at the B models with 14 forward firing .50's with 400 rpg, and 5 inch rockets available to it. Better speed and performance. More ord options.
* Bomber drivers really could use something other than the Ar-234 Arado to earn and spend perk points on. You hear complaints about buff drivers that "bomb-and-bail", or suicide on their runs. Why not? Not like they need perks for anything they want to fly. Arado not what many want. B-29 would be, but we are not getting it. So, drop, bail, back in the air faster. Give them something else to spend perks on.
* The A-26 could give you 2 bombers, a B "attack bomber", and C "medium penetration bomber" for the time and effort put into 1 plane's development. Both perk worthy rides. Some A-26's were built with 75mm nose gun, whether they saw combat or not, and was still an option they could swap in the field as needed. Give buff and attack plane drivers wanting a spud gun their chance at one. Numerous .50's would be popular too.
The A-26 is perk worthy, and is far more versatile as to options open to it, than the B-25. As to historical, the He-111 would win out over the B-25, IMHO.
Seems like the N1K is used to fill a hole in the Japanese plane set. What hole does the A26 fill other then effectively eliminating the use of the A20 and B26?
Lets face it, that bird would be a beast compared to the other two.
Trust me, I loved flying the A26 back in the old AW days. It's a beautiful aircraft. I just want to see other more wartime used birds first. And if thats the He111 so be it.
Not bashing the A26 at all btw :)