Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sincraft on February 15, 2007, 12:36:47 AM
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Ok, I suk at this game but am getting better. Landed several multi kills tonight and didn't die till my 10 sorte.
However, this is all due to my Yak or my p-47.
I've still been unable to land kills in a p51 no matter how I change the conv settings.
Anyone feel the yak and the p47 is much better than the p51, or is it just a matter of personal preference?
The yak seems much faster and smoother. Much better pick up and go when needed to leave on bingo. No wep though that I could find.
Anyway, just also wanted to say THANKS to many of you that have given me links and input on this game. I read as much as I can in the limited time I have, and did adjust my view settings to check my 6 much easier and view more area. Conv settings for me are still up in the air but I'll learn over time I'm sure.
Right now, I think I'm sticking to the yak and the p47 although I dont see many flying the p47 honestly. Why is that?
S
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Which P51 are we talking about? B or D?
I've still been unable to land kills in a p51 no matter how I change the conv settings.
On the D i got 300 yrds. 6x50 cals are a excellent guns package. They do lack the 1-ping insta-death of some cannons, but they are still brutal when you know how to use em. The jugs 8 50cals are a MADMAN!
Anyone feel the yak and the p47 is much better than the p51, or is it just a matter of personal preference?
You need to think more relatively. Each plane has its strengths and weaknesses. Eg, a P47 will eat a yak and P51-D for breakfast up high (16K+) The P51-B is a much better match for anything up high than its D counterpart. Conversly the P51-D is better at mid altitudes than either the yak or the P47. And again it all depends on what you mean by 'better'...
The yak seems much faster and smoother. Much better pick up
Yes the yak has brilliant acceleration and typically out accelerate all jugs and all mustangs especially down low (<7K). The Yak is slower than the D mustang on MIL power below 7K and thats about it. The D mustang is faster all other conditions. The B mustang eats the yak above 13k. Jugs don't have very good acceleration in general (but get better up very high).
No wep though that I could find.
Yak 9u has no WEP.
Right now, I think I'm sticking to the yak and the p47
If you wanna mix it up down low (<10k) take the yak if you can live with its short legs. If ya wanna do some high-alt stuff the Jug is a good option. The P51-D is a damned fine all-rounder not to be underestimated! If i was you id stick to the D pony - but thats the pony dweeb in me speaking...
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VERY well said! Thanks!
yes i totally forgot about alt difference on certain planes.
Been awhile since I was into all of this. I have pilots in my family and we talk about fighters occasionally but it has been awhile.
I do enjoy the 47 down low...esp for rockets, and bombs then - being able to use 8 guns :) I scored a 4 kill sorte with it.
The yak I use down low also. It pulls away from the best of them, even some diving on me when I am bingo.
I don't see many high alt fights going on. When I first started, that's the first thing I did, if I knew a fight was close to base, I would head the opposite direction and gain super alt...only to have to bleed it HORRIBLY to get into the battle enough to even land a few drive by hits.
I'm going to keep workign with the p51 as like I said, it may just be me. I don't expect it to be the best turn fighter or the best for bnz, but it does seem to do both OK.
The only thing I do not like is the lack of power coming out of a turn or a sustained turn battle. The yak seems to give me that what I need.
I hate the yaks' lack of ammo though, although I did have a 3 kill sorte in it tonight, the first kill was an insta death..second I hit the guy he got scared and turned into a mountain, and the 3rd I had to spray every bit of ammo..then he finally lost enough control surfaces and bit it running home.
Thanks for the input. :) I have to look around for a more comprehensive plane guide I guess. Somethign that will tell me all of this in writting so I can pick and choose.
I see alot of 109s and 190s on 'the other teams' but not many rooks flying them. Wonder why? My fav turn fighter in ww2online was a 109e :)
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I do ok in the D stang but those good jug pilots can give anyone fits with their rolls... similar(but not same) as a good hog pilot.
As for which one is better: the one that is better is the one you have the most fun in.
Eventually it comes down to the pilot. jug vs pony could go either way, all things being equal.
Yak vs either, at least in MA alts, Yak should win(1v1). However, in the MA, with flight times and multiple bogies, the jug and pony have an edge, IMHO.*
I will say that for me, as a D stang stick, an excellent jug pilot is a harder fight than the same yak or pony. FWIW
* It's ok to feel differently, remember, it's what you like. Ask 100 people the what and why of your question and you'll get many many different answers.
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Originally posted by Sincraft
Right now, I think I'm sticking to the yak and the p47 although I dont see many flying the p47 honestly. Why is that?
S
Because many claim it to be a "pig" and dont like the attention it recieves...
everyone will always pick on the p47 and always autmatically think easy kill...That is until they find themselves in its gunsights:t
Its not very manuverable if U dont know throttle management and flap control...it also doesnt have very good climb..once it loses its E it takes a while to get it back... and since 94% of the MA population dont have the patience and tend to get frustrated easily they tend to give up on it rather quickly.. I love it though... I feel like i have inlimited ammo somtimes :D
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If you wanna figure out the Mustang, wing with me for a few. I've just started flying it extensively in the past month or two, but I'm really enjoying it and would be glad to help out someone else who wants to learn it.
FYI I mainly fly the P-51B, seem to do much better in it more consistently for some reason (as of typing this I'm at 198 kills for 55 deaths in it) than I do with the D (74 kills for 19 deaths). Had a 10-kill run in it tonight until I was nailed trying to get home with 8 rounds and about 25 gallons of gas left. (just had to stick around for that 10th kill...)
Look me up in the Late War, I fly rook. Nowhere near the best stick, but I like to help out and enjoy teaching a willing student.
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It's all a matter of how you fly, as different aircraft are better in different types of fights.
The P-51 is average as a turn-fighter at best, and probably the low end of that range at that. A slow Pony, in most cases, is a dead Pony (there's a few exceptional guys that can make her dance at any speed, but we're talking some EXCEPTIONAL sticks and no exaggeration). A Pony on the deck better be running out of dodge at Ludicrous Speed, or he's asking for trouble. She also doesn't hold on to energy as well as other aircraft, so isn't the best as an energy fighter, (I LOVE watching Ponies outrunning me in a dive all the sudden think they can pull up and out-zoom my Corsair :D ) although the 51 CAN pick it up again fairly quickly, especially when going nose-down.
As stated, the P-51 is most effective at higher altitudes (in the context of the Main Arena, between 10-15k) and flown as a BnZ plane. I have no fear of a P-51 below or co-alt with me, and so long as I see him coming and I'm not tied up with another con, the alt-monkey one-pass Runstangs are generally little more than a nuisance. The danger is that the P-51 CAN get up to speed quickly, so if you don't know he's there he can cherry-pick before you can react.
The important thing is keep the 51 fast. DON'T bleed off your speed to mix it up at close range, as there's few aircraft the Pony can expect to out-turn at ANY speed. If you feel your dive speed is TOO high, pull back throttle except for the last few seconds of your attack run.
Also, think about target selection. If you're making high-speed passes alert targets will generally just Split-S under you where your airspeed keeps you from following, or otherwise sidestep your run (in some cases setting up a reversal to nail you). Use your airspeed to advantage and pop the guys who may not be so wary: Clear 6's, etc. Don't give your actual target any indication that he IS your target. Target selection, setup and positioning is the art to a perfectly-executed BnZ that most TnB'ers don't like to acknowledge. ;)
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Some planes just suit your flying style and personallity .....For some odd reason the only plane I am any good in is the Ki-61 ...yet almost nobody else fly's it .....embrace the fact that you are comfortable in the yak and the p47
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It really is what you are comfortable with and have fun in, but dont discount planes on the first fly. Have patience, pick a plane and stick with it, good or bad for a week or two. Learn its strengths and its weaknesses. Even if you never fly that plane again after those 2 weeks you will know how it can fly, and that will help you shoot it down. Learn from those willing to teach, but most of all have fun. I personally am doing a month rotation. This month is the LA7, no legs on it, but its a great fighter. This is my best month so far, but next month I move on. Sure if your doing a base defense deviate if you need to. Right now for low slow defense I switch to the Hurri, but if fight is high or out away from base some I run with the LA. Next month it will be a differnt bird, but I know that if I need to switch back to a fast, manuverable fighter, that I will know how to fly the LA7. Just learn the planes and have fun, dont worry about score, that will come in time.
Just my 2 pennies.
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"High" and "La-7" mix about as well as oil and water. Unless you're planning to burn through an otd furball at Mach 10.
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Originally posted by Sincraft
I see alot of 109s and 190s on 'the other teams' but not many rooks flying them. Wonder why? My fav turn fighter in ww2online was a 109e :) [/B]
That would be me.
The late model 109s pack a punch that not many can reckon with. The 30mm is deadly in the right hands.
To be honest, I find anything of a lesser calibre to be a waste of time.
Once you learn to get your kills with this cannon down to 10 rounds per kill max, you will be pulling home 6-7 kill sorties without a re-arm.
The best way to fight with a 30mm cannon is to treat the gun like a knife as opposed to a projectile weapon. You have to get real close.... then get closer, then pull the trigger... *snap* and they're dead.
If they don't explode straight away, they'll at least be missing vital parts.
With experience in a 109G (and even a K4 at a stretch) you can turn with most aircraft.
I've got some great films of P-47 pilots who think they can roll about in their fat pigs and out-turn me in a 109K without effort.
:lol
1 Jug fight that lasted for 3 minutes or so, rolling and turning everywhere. Was a great fight.
Once you get into your position, that's all you need.
I think i used 5 cannon rounds in this fight.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/109VSJugcropped.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/109VSJug2.jpg)
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IMO...the pony isn't a bad turn fighter if u manage your throttle correctly and use your flaps accordingly also having the correct fuel load is a MUST. There is a night and day difference in the way the pony handles with 50% fuel compared to 75%. I get alot of kills turn fighting with it. However, if ya jump in on a spit or something that turns well you don't want to be doing it for long because once they get over the initial shock of a pony turn fighting them they will crank it around on you and the acceleration isn't that great. So get the kill quick.
As for the "jug"....i couldn't tell you much about it because i think i can count on 1 hand how many times I've used it. I do know that there seem to be 2 kinds of jug drivers> the really, really bad ones or the ones that will send you to the tower express mail. Platano, and YUCCA come to mind also MWL has give me some good fights.:aok
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1136882351_dread.jpg)
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Imagine how much damage youd be doing if you weren't about to chop his tail off with your prop...
That thing has guns in BOTH wings you know. :O
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Originally posted by Treize69
Imagine how much damage youd be doing if you weren't about to chop his tail off with your prop...
That thing has guns in BOTH wings you know. :O
Its important to be thorough.
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Baaaaah, PH33R the Mustang! :D Watch Act II of the following movie (one I posted awhile back) where I fight a Yak with initial energy and angles advantage but eventually turn the tables on him ;). All a real fight in the MA. I had to cut out parts of it to match the music.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=187065&referrerid=3699
Seriously though...the difference you are seeing in getting more kills with the Yak & P-47 vs. the P-51 might be because of the difference in your gunnery. You have either a 37mm or 20mm in the Yak which are round for round much more lethal than the .50 cal. In the P-47 you have 8 .50's vs. 6 (P-51D) or 4 (P-51B) .50's with the Mustang. Those 2 extra .50's make a difference.
Regarding the comparison of aircraft this is why I enjoy this game so much. It's really a fast-pasted mental chess game. Understanding the relative differences between aircraft is important in becoming successful in air-to-air combat. But there are a lot more variables than just the "paper" performance differences of the planes.
Factors such as differences in energy states & weights, where in the relative performance envelopes the aircraft are, and how angles are impacted by relative differences in speed, turn radius, & turn rate etc. all can turn the tables on the plane that has the better "paper" performance. That's the fun part ;).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Helm
Some planes just suit your flying style and personallity .....For some odd reason the only plane I am any good in is the Ki-61 ...yet almost nobody else fly's it .....embrace the fact that you are comfortable in the yak and the p47
The Ki-61 is one of the most under-estimated and unused planes in the hanger. In the right hands .... this is a very deadly plane. I think it was Humble that introduced me (or should I say pwnd) to the Ki-61 back in the day when I flew the Spit V alot.
Get it slow enuff to pop flaps... and it will turn with any Spit (with the exception of the Spit I) ... and has a decent gun package along with decent speed.
I used to fly it alot, but for some reason, I just can't put my FM2 off to the side ... maybe cause it's too fast compared to the FM2 ... :rofl
Ad far as the P-51 ... talk to Steve or dtango ... both incredible sticks in the P-51. Another P-51 jock was DmdDano ... don't see him on much anymore.
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Originally posted by Sincraft
Thanks for the input. :) I have to look around for a more comprehensive plane guide I guess. Somethign that will tell me all of this in writting so I can pick and choose.
Surprised nobody gave you this link yet:
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
I read it like a novel when I first started playing.
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I fly both of them a lil bit. Neither of them very well at all.
I find the Pony to be harder to fly low and fighting than I do the Jug. Now why that is I have no idea.
I prefer the Jug over the Pony given that I will most likely lose some alt and eventually be in over my head.
When in BnZ mode tho , and fairly confident that I wont be a dum dum and end up low....I prefer the Pony all day.
The 8 .50's on the Jug are so nice. Man you can HAMMER some wings.
It's taken me about 2 months of flying the pony to get it to where I don't auger it on the dive.
The Jug , I struggle with , but its very good.
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(I originally posted this to the Aircraft and Vehicle forum yesterday)
I was working with a guy who flies the P-47s as his MA ride. He's been going through a flat spot (all pilots hit these bumps in the virtual road from time to time) and wanted to work on his ACM. We began flying the P-47D-11. After an few duels, I took a D-25 trying to even out things a bit as he was struggling some. Not quote enough. So, I grabbed a P-51D.
If I flew a pure E fight, the P-51D was perfectly adequate. However, if I dumped flaps and maneuvered, the Mustang was badly outclassed by the D-11. I switched to the P-51B and there was little improvement.
This was really bothering me. Flaps out, the P-51s are absolute pigs. Indeed, the P-51B has a turn radius that is nearly 70 feet greater than the P-47D-11 with both turning with flaps full out.
Consider that a low fuel P-51B (25% gas) weighs right around 9,000 lb and the P-47D-11 (25% gas) weighs about 12,200 lb.
This results in respective wing loadings of:
P-51B: 38.59 lb per sq/ft
P-47D-11: 40.66 lb per sq/ft
Even with flaps up, the P-47D-11 out-turns the P-51B. That simply should not be the case.
P-51s and P-47s have a similar maximum coefficient of lift.
P-51B: 1.89
P-47D: 1.93
If we take the wingloading and divide it by the co-efficient of lift, we have a reference indicator of turning ability.
So, for the P-51B: 38.59/1.89 = 20.42
For the P-47D-11: 40.66/1.93 = 21.07
Thus, the P-47's turn radius should be 103% of that of the P-51B (clean, no flaps).
Unfortunately, in the game it's backwards.
P-51B turn radius, clean: 758.2 feet
P-47D-11 radius, clean: 748.4 feet
Thus, the P-51B's turn radius is 101.3% of that of the P-47D-11.
So, in AH2, the P-47D-11 turns slightly smaller circles than the P-51B. Adding flaps in increments results in the P-47 gradually turning smaller circles until at full flaps, the difference in just short of 70 feet. This results in the P-51B turn radius being 113% of that of the P-47D-11.
From: wwiiaircraftperformance.org
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-tactical-header.jpg)
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE XIV
Maximum Endurance
25. By comparison the Spitfire XIV has no endurance.
Maximum speed
26. There is practically nothing to choose in maximum speed.
Maximum climb
27. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
28. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away; but less markedly.
Turning Circle
29. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
30. Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
31. With the exception of endurance, no conclusions should be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TEMPEST V
Maximum endurance
32. By comparison, the Tempest V has no endurance.
Maximum speed
33. The Tempest V is 15-20mph faster up to 15,000ft. There is then no choice until 24,000ft when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30mph faster at 30,000ft.
Maximum climb
34. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height, the Tempest has the better zoom climb.
Dive
35. The Tempest tends to pull away.
Turning circle
36. The Tempest is not quite as good.
Rate of Roll
37. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute of the Tempest V may be improved upon in later aircraft.
Conclusions
38. The Mustang has endurance and general performance above 24,000ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a better speed and climb below 10,000ft.
Note that the AH2 Tempest out-turns both the P-47D-11 and the P-51B...
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
When the drag model was revised, the P-51s suffered a large hit to their turn radius, especially with flaps out. They went from reasonably capable to absolutely helpless in an instant. Only the Fw 190A-8 and F-8 have larger turn radii than the P-51D.
This is another thing that needs to be looked at. Our P-51s have lost much of their luster. I'm hoping that HTC looks at them again before Combat Tour debuts.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks for the hard research WW. I usually end up in the weeds each flight in my D stang and notice that it is outclassed in turns by much larger and heavier aircraft. It may be that I'm running into better sticks than I but it's nice to know my suspicions were not completely unfounded.
Thanks again for your efforts.
Steve
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widowing,
very nice addition to thread. Being a Ponyd dweeb that I am, ive been struggling ever since the change .Ive had to change my fight style per diff plane types. Since the pony no longer tunrs like it use to and other planes now turn better , its been a battle to say the least.
Before the change the pony could basiclly stay and fight at virtually any alt against spit9, nik, d25 d40 ( except yucca ) la7 p38 and ALL german iron except e-4 but it so slow didnt matter.
Now the phrase runstang means alittle more because the ponyd is having a much harder time dancing with more planes than it use to.
Theres no doubt the pony will get fixed someday, until then , stay paired.
Sr.
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WOW , Thanks for the input guys :) Love these discussions. :)
Wid, WOW x 200! Amazing info. I LOVE STATS! :)
Thanks!
S
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Originally posted by Sincraft
WOW , Thanks for the input guys :) Love these discussions. :)
Wid, WOW x 200! Amazing info. I LOVE STATS! :)
Thanks!
S
LOL ... if you love stats ... WideWing is your man !!!