Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: Zuum on February 15, 2007, 11:48:27 PM
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Another short film concerning in to ineffectiviness of 30mm cannon in german planes...
This time 109K4 attacking A20s... There are several cannon hits in tails of those planes...and result is: Minor disturbing...the surface, even, hardly suffers a scratch...
Weird...
The film, 300K size (http://www.rubricum.com/files/30mmnoeffect.ahf)
IRL, that Pride of Rheinmetall-Boersig could rip wings and bodies to pieces with single hit only. Even those of big bombers like b-17s...:p
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I've got films of me landing 5-7 30mm hits in a very confined space on lancasters many times. I agree there's some funky damage modeling going on.
However, it might be on the planes, not the gun itself.
As for the film, you hit the starboard drone once mid-ships. IMO you probably should have ripped the tail off, but I can't be sure.
Then you come back and end up hitting the lead's wing with 1 30mm and its tail with 1 13mm. You only knocked a flap off. No smoke no gas no oil leaks no nothing. You probably should have blown his wing off.
I routinely hit bombers with multiple 30mm or 37mm (yakT) in same general area and it annoys me to see very little damage. I just fire again and hope the damage models are updated when the aircraft are!
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Dunno how it was in RL, but in game bombers fuselage can absorb massive damage. Generally shooting in fus is waste of ammo unless you hit cockpit.
As far as i read, in general single 30mm in wing wasnt enough to shoot heavy bomber down, usually they need 2-3x30mm in one wing (IRL).
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Most bombers, I'd agree Oleg. Only these were A-20s. As small as P-38s basically. Small wings, small structure. It's basically a large fighter.
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Oops, missed plane name, only notice "B-17" mentioned in end of message.
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Like all Nazi equipment, the Mark 108 is very highly over-rated today. A lot of people associate Nazi Germany with power, and that is the reason behind the fascination.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Like all Nazi equipment, the Mark 108 is very highly over-rated today. A lot of people associate Nazi Germany with power, and that is the reason behind the fascination.
Yup, these guys designed some of the best machine guns and cannons in the world at that time. Such fine example is the venerable MG-42. The sound of that machine gun really scared the allies (no exaggeration here)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Like all Nazi equipment, the Mark 108 is very highly over-rated today. A lot of people associate Nazi Germany with power, and that is the reason behind the fascination.
ROFLMAO! I rely on presumption that You are kidding
Please, take a look on this fact sheet:
mk 108 (http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html)
P.S. According to my film, mk108 is really not over-rated...
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Benny's a US aircraft fanatic, saying no other plane from any country could ever best them, so that may be why he thinks this of LW equipment.
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No, it's because of the discrepency between the opinions of pilots and Aces High II players.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
No, it's because of the discrepency between the opinions of pilots and Aces High II players.
You mean discrepency between the opinions of american pilots and Aces High II players? :huh
I am pretty sure most pilots believed airplanes of their country was the best.
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I think it has taken me up to 20-25 30mm mk 108 rounds to take down a single B-24. Its frustrating. Also, ive put two WgR 21 rockets nicely in the middle of the formation, seen a nice detonation in the middle, right where I wanted it, and seen only fuel leaks. The only plane I have yet to be able to kill with WgR21s is the Ki-67. B-24s and B-17s shrug these off like nothing, and from the pilots testaments, in real life, nothing could be farther from the truth. And 1k3, I beleive the gun you are thinking of, that struck terror into the allies, was the Machingewher 38. This gun was smaller, but much more feared because for every one shell fired, three explosions were heard, causing this gun to SOUND like it had 3 times the firing rate, producing not a "takka-takka-takka" sound, but a straight buzzing. Training films were developed specifically to teach the allies this gun wasnt as effective as it sounded, but I am not so fortunate as to be able to get my hands on this. But I do agree, the Mg42 was an excellent gun. Im trying to save up $2,000 to get my hands on an airsoft version of one...
<------- Confirmed Luftwhiner :D
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Originally posted by Serenity
But I do agree, the Mg42 was an excellent gun. Im trying to save up $2,000 to get my hands on an airsoft version of one...
<------- Confirmed Luftwhiner :D
lol is that even legal...?:noid :p
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Originally posted by Oleg
I am pretty sure most pilots believed airplanes of their country was the best.
You are in Russia. What could you possibly know about World War Two fighters?
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You are in America, what would you possibly know about anything made in another country? Right? You can't toss insults like that around without them coming back at ya instantly. I'd suggest not tossing them to begin with.
Getting back on topic: I put a 30mm up the arse of a Ar234 today, dead on perfect hit. No damage. (no don't ask, wasn't rolling film). He tried to ditch at a v-field and a friendly shot him before he could, but I only received an assist. Ar234 is as compact as a boston (more so!), with a very narrow fuselage. I can't see it surviving as much damage as it seems to.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
You are in Russia. What could you possibly know about World War Two fighters?
Oh yes, i forgot - WW2 was won by USA :lol Only americans know The Truth about WW2 :lol
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You Russians behave as though you know everything about World War Two, and yet all you know is what your totalitarian government force-fed you. And it's mostly false.
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Some of americans believe they know everything about WW2 but all they know is their own propaganda :lol
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Sorry But I couldn't help burst out laughing reading the above posts about who knows what........lol
Heres my two cents:
NO BODY KNOWS SQUAT ABOUT WW2 UNLESS YOU REALLY WERE THERE DODGING BULLETS AND PRAYING TO BE ALIVE TO SEE TOMORROW.
And if there are some people here who really were there....then I doubt that they'd even bother to dignify your little argument with any sort of response.
EDIT: Oh yeah as far as topic goes, yes i think the 30mm should be able to do more than it does here......My P38s been hit by one often and I still survived without even losing a rudder. It seems totally ineffective against armour also.
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It would be totally ineffective against armor. It's not an armor piercing round. Nor is the 37mm on the Yak. The only AP rounds we have in game are the IL2s and the Hurr2Ds.
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Originally Posted by Krusty :
It would be totally ineffective against armor. It's not an armor piercing round. Nor is the 37mm on the Yak. The only AP rounds we have in game are the IL2s and the Hurr2Ds.
Wow, really.......never knew that.....so you mean the IL2s 23mm will do more damage to tanks than the 37mm on a Yak????
That proves it....Im a permanoob :o :o
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Originally posted by Hazard69
Wow, really.......never knew that.....so you mean the IL2s 23mm will do more damage to tanks than the 37mm on a Yak????
Absolutely.
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Benny, youve always come across as arrogant and argumentative to me on the BBS. But in this thread youve gone too far IMHO.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
You Russians behave as though you know everything about World War Two, and yet all you know is what your totalitarian government force-fed you. And it's mostly false.
What do you think of TsAGI PE2 tests matching exactly Rechlin data ?
You never provided the start of the begining of something prooving your assertion,you're a troll mister.
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I have come to the conclusion that this problem boils down to connection quality, and applies to all rounds, not just 30mm.
Some nights a short squirt kills, others I hose away hit sprites all over and nothing.
The other night I was chasing a 234 in a komet and saw distinctly 2 hits on the left wing and 1 on the right and ended up just smoking the two engines, normally the wings would be gone.
My squadies probably think I'm nuts when I say things like "wow my rounds are hitting hard tonight" or "dang, rubber bullets tonight".
Me thinks packets hide sometimes.
shamus
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That could make sense...I have lots of similar expreriences!
BTW, I have mostly almost excellent connection to HTC servers. Ping is approx. 160 ms and variance of delay is very flat....
I can live with that, although, the pings from my PC(in Finland) to the 1st server in american soil are so low as 60-70 ms...Sprintlink server in NYC is the first bottleneck. Then ATTīs server and so on...
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Benny, youve always come across as arrogant and argumentative to me on the BBS. But in this thread youve gone too far IMHO.
Wow.
Somebody got Schatzi P.O.'d! That's impressive!
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Originally posted by Hazard69
Wow, really.......never knew that.....so you mean the IL2s 23mm will do more damage to tanks than the 37mm on a Yak????
If they are NOT armour piercing....why do I loose tanks to them? I have had panzies been blown to bits by the Yak! Not tracked. Not engine smoking...I have been killed by them straffing my tank.
Softail
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Originally posted by Softail
If they are NOT armour piercing....why do I loose tanks to them? I have had panzies been blown to bits by the Yak! Not tracked. Not engine smoking...I have been killed by them straffing my tank.
Softail
Film?
Bronk
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well im not sure what are in the tailgunner's ammo bin on the bomber that is capable of holding rockets and 12 - 100lb bombs, but I had a spit RIGHT on my six basically taunting me, about 100 m dead straight on a bit low...and I nailed him with SO many rounds - I'd have to think I hit with 50-75% of my rounds...
NOTHING happened to him. He sprayed for a nano second and I was express routed to the tower :(
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Originally posted by Softail
If they are NOT armour piercing....why do I loose tanks to them? I have had panzies been blown to bits by the Yak! Not tracked. Not engine smoking...I have been killed by them straffing my tank.
Softail
IRL: Have You ever seen the devastating force of russian 23 mm cannons? I have and I know that...The small caliber misleads into believing that it wonīt work against panzers.
Old russian 23 mm cannon, as well as new 30mm cannon, are both really excellent guns. Like it or not.
They both have really high muzzle velocity and relatively heavy projectile. Kinetic energy of hit is huge.
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Originally posted by Zuum
IRL: Have You ever seen the devastating force of russian 23 mm cannons? I have and I know that...The small caliber misleads into believing that it wonīt work against panzers.
Old russian 23 mm cannon, as well as new 30mm cannon, are both really excellent guns. Like it or not.
They both have really high muzzle velocity and relatively heavy projectile. Kinetic energy of hit is huge.
He was talking about the Yak 37mm, not the Il2 23mm cannons.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Film?
Bronk
I've blown up panzers with a Yak 9T. Only when flying real low right up the 6 of the PNZR and hitting it with 4-6 37mm rounds.
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Originally posted by Solar10
I've blown up panzers with a Yak 9T. Only when flying real low right up the 6 of the PNZR and hitting it with 4-6 37mm rounds.
I'd still like to see film of this.
Only because I've been on a guns only kick, ac to gv as of late.
My preferred ride for this is the IID.
4 rounds and I'll smoke a tiger turret.
With 8 and a bit of luck I kill em outright. (only did this once so far)
I find it hard to believe an HE round can outright kill tanks in this game.
So please post a film .
Bronk
Edit: I'll go as far as the DA in tank and let you try to kill me.
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Originally posted by Lusche
He was talking about the Yak 37mm, not the Il2 23mm cannons.
Oops...i forgot the suggestion "BTW..." before the text: :D
I ment, "BTW, Have You ever...etc, etc..."
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Like all Nazi equipment, the Mark 108 is very highly over-rated today. A lot of people associate Nazi Germany with power, and that is the reason behind the fascination.
Benny,there's a pic of a beaufort,I think,that had 1 30 mm exploded,by the allies.It was placed in the aft fusealage and detonated. This shell completely seperated the fuselage. If you took the time to read about the MK108 you'd have seen that it contained 56 grains of HE.Tests by all have confirmed 3 to 5 hits would bring down any plane. think of a small grenade going off inside your A/C
BTW I know a couple of Mitchel gunners and the mere mention of FW 190 would bring tears to their eyes,over estimated,not very likely.....
But what would they know,they're only Crazy Canucks:noid
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errrrr, that would be a Beaufighter:O
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Opps, anyway...
The point was the 30mm and itīs ineffectiviness in AH.
I think, that gun has been downed a lot...
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Ok this video should silence this forum and shows how underpowered 30mms are in this game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek
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thx, barnes!
Now I donīt feel myself so alone.
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Originally posted by Barnes828
Ok this video should silence this forum and shows how underpowered 30mms are in this game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek
Hmm on a fighter size ac it does just that.
I've taken off spit wing with one round.
Not sure what the problem is?
Bronk
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I've got a question about this quote from the webpage listed above:
Mk108
"One drawback was that once installed, there was no method to adjust the gun's harmonization"
Anyone know the magic number in meters? I bet it wasn't very far. From this I'm reading it shouldn't have an adjustable conversion setting. Furthermore, it got me to thinking--how do you adjust convergence in a cannon that is mounted inside the propellor hub? I would think the tollerance for up/down and side to side is pretty small. If its set parallel to the shaft of the prop extension, I'm thinking you get very little accurate range--probably less than 200 meters or so. I'm curious what the drop over 800 meters would be for a 300 gram round. Seems like a shot at that range would require the target to be blocked by the cowling to "bloop" the round in. I got killed tonight in FSO from a shot at 800 meters, then later in the MA by a shot from 800 meters. Pretty gamey, IMOH. No question in the lethality of the round, merely talking about precision of the tater at that range. I always love when its insta-tower at 800 meters--makes my day.
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Stoney...I do live 100 % with your opinion about "gamey" charasteristics of certain guns in AH.
I have been shot many times by .50 cals(Pony or Jug) from 1000 yards distance...IRL that would have been a bad joke.
I bet, the rational and effective range of Mk108 was likely less than 100 yards...
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I'd just like to see some documentation on max effective range, what was the "fixed" factory convergence distance, and amount of drop over 1000 meters every 100 meters. Also, I looked at Tony Williams site to see if I could compute muzzle velocity loss over those distances. The closest I could approximate from his formulas for specific density etc. was around 6% MV loss every 100 meters. That would mean with a starting MV of 550 meters/sec. it would have an approximate MV
At barrel: 550 m/sec
At 100m: 517 m/sec
At 200m: 486 m/sec
At 300m: 457m/sec
At 400m: 430m/sec
At 500m: 404m/sec
At 600m: 380m/sec
At 700m: 357m/sec
At 800m: 336m/sec
That's a huge amount of MV loss. A round that has such bad ballistics should turn into a knuckleball at that range. Maybe one of the others could tell me what the drop over distance was. If the rational and effective range of the weapon was around 100meters, the model is seriously flawed--and I ain't talking about the damage done.
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Stoney, awesome observation.:aok Sorry I missed that day in Physics class (tater logic - how far can I throw the tater).:D
I think the question here still asks, what makes them bounce back:confused:
Someone referred to a noticeable difference in damage from day to day (referred to as rubber bullets ). I agree somedays I am on fire, raking in the one pass kills, and on other days I am literally on fire (bingo ammo - enough assists to win wingman of the year):furious
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I did some practice offline, shooting at the B-24 drones. I never had more than 2-4 hits in one area of the plane before it exploded. I was pretty much matching speed and shooting from a fixed distance of approx 200m with a convergence setting of 300. I used only the cannon, and not the MG so I didn't confuse hit sprites.
Might be interesting to know how the bomber test average of 4-5 rounds to "destroy a bomber" was set up. I would assume those hits would all have to be in the same place (say the wing root to remove the wing).
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One last observation and a recommendation.
Try flying in the MA, shooting only with the single 30mm, and not the MG's. Watching that first film a couple times from different angles, could be most of those hits were MG hit sprites rather than the cannon. The real test would be if you rolled in on something, firing only cannon, saw hit sprites that did "nothing" or very little damage. Like I said, I got killed twice last nice in a P-47 from single Mk108 hits at a range of 800 meters. Didn't blow my tail off or pop the control surfaces--it was instant tower (catestrophic explosion). I'd say the round is plenty powerful, if you actually hit.