Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LTARghst on February 17, 2007, 03:11:16 AM
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Is it me or is ther a major influx of people getting rammed more lately due to the fact of a large number of Noobs. Was defending a base yesterday and was rammed many times. These were guys never heard of so figured NOOBS. Was rammed by the same guy 3 times at one base. This Noob made it an effort to pull up into me everytime I broke off. Started spraying 2 out. Is it just me?
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It is really hard to ram intentionally...
Remeber that what you see and they see is different...
(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/FE%20Difference.jpg)
It sounds like you would be the red player in the pic above
Never the less I have experienced more ramming incidents of late, but I do not think they were intentional
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Ghost, alot of these new guys all want to take the easy way out. It gets old with the hordes of Lgays, and spits flown by people you know can fly. Anyone can yank n bank all day and run away all day in these planes... stay an fight! I don't mind getting shot down by anyone until it comes it becoming dweebing. Alot of it is just simple stuff too. Bailing out and sitting in the map room with the .45, the run and shoot the goon and bail... or as you have been saying the rams, ho's and dweebish crap. No one wants a 1 on 1 anymore... or a 2 on 2.... makes the game boring.:furious
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awwwww he's an LTAR !!! this is all he see's !! LTAR VIEW (http://www1.hitechcreations.com/news/images/070209/ahss48.gif)
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
awwwww he's an LTAR !!! this is all he see's !! LTAR VIEW (http://www1.hitechcreations.com/news/images/070209/ahss48.gif)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Yea, had that happen a few times to me. Had one guy, HO me, then pull straight into my wing when his HO missed! i was very peed off, but hey, its a game. Something annoys you? Just log and do something very relaxing! It works, when youve calmed down, log back on and play again!
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Well guys when the emphasis has gone from a fighter ideology to a base capture ideology, win at all cost becomes the mantra. And while that is imperative in real life, it is far from what makes a game fun.
when I joined up this game was about fighting planes against each other and everyone strove to be a great pilot and to fight a great fight. Now this whole idea is mocked as in the weather thread. Some are even ignorant enough to call it air quake. Well those have gotten exactly what they have sown. A community of newbs that know little about fighter combat and will try to win at all cost.
Change your own mentality and change the rest of the community one at a time.
And no, I do not discount the win the war game, but I do discount it's mentality. :aok
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another bash the noob thread? just out of curiosity how do ram anyone in a truck?
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I think the increase in rams is more to do with the micro-warping that affecting everyone than anything else.
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I think its interesting when we both are pulling for inside track, RAM occurs then i get blamed even though the other guy never unloaded to avoid either >?< WTF
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im tired of bein HOd! even quality players are pressing this shot. I try to make my intention very clear and early to avoid! but they keep pressing it so the shot they get is hi off angle still HO and lame! BTW always HO perk rides. :)
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If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
That is all.
Bronk
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TY Bronk! its very clear now!!!
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Originally posted by macleod01
Yea, had that happen a few times to me. Had one guy, HO me, then pull straight into my wing when his HO missed! i was very peed off, but hey, its a game. Something annoys you? Just log and do something very relaxing! It works, when youve calmed down, log back on and play again!
I done that very same thing involving you once, I chased you at 16k in a corsair, you ran (extended) for about a sector until I saw another pony coming in behind me, you then Reversed and one of the two of you finally got me, so yes, it does get annoying, especially when I was trying to get into land and the "you have collided with mcloeod " part came up, so you both must have been pulling a lot of high g's in the quest to kill said corsair.
I just logged after that and gave myself a few weeks break and done something else to relax.
Please don't take it personal, I've probably done it too, but your name popped up on here and I remembered..
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Posted by LTARghst
Is it me or is ther a major influx of people getting rammed more lately due to the fact of a large number of Noobs. Was defending a base yesterday and was rammed many times. These were guys never heard of so figured NOOBS. Was rammed by the same guy 3 times at one base. This Noob made it an effort to pull up into me everytime I broke off. Started spraying 2 out. Is it just me?
I dont mind ram tards, they just blow up when they hit me and i get the kill, there is no way to actualy ram someone in this game and cause them damage so whats the problem? The only true ram tards out there are ones who make BBS threads about how they are getting rammed.
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Originally posted by Bronk
If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
So how is "fault" determined?
I have experienced a fair few collisions recently. Some my "own fault", typically hitting a bomber when leaving it too late to break off although I don't recall the text colour it would probably be orange!. Most other times in a dogfight when I may not have even seen the other aircraft.
Edit:
LOL come to think of it I have had the same as Tinman (post below).
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Originally posted by Bronk
If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
That is all.
Bronk
Come on Bronk, that message is screwy.
Sat in a stationary Ostwind on a V-Base, Enemy planes diving in all around me - one dives straight into me and up comes the orange text. "You have collided".
Yes, the text must obviously be correct and I am a "ace pilot" for not getting supplies, starting my engine, throwing it into gear and crawling away as fast as my tracks will carry me.
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Originally posted by Blagard
So how is "fault" determined?
I have experienced a fair few collisions recently. Some my "own fault", typically hitting a bomber when leaving it too late to break off although I don't recall the text colour it would probably be orange!. Most other times in a dogfight when I may not have even seen the other aircraft.
What Each player see's is different
It has to do with the lag between your PC and the server and the other guys PC and the server.
What they see is different to what you see.
Fault has NOTHING to do with who caused the RAM
In the pic below the RED plane is responsible for the collision because the impact happened on his PC
On the BLUE Pilots PC no collision EVER occours
(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/FE%20Difference.jpg)
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Come on Bronk, that message is screwy.
Sat in a stationary Ostwind on a V-Base, Enemy planes diving in all around me - one dives straight into me and up comes the orange text. "You have collided".
Yes, the text must obviously be correct and I am a "ace pilot" for not getting supplies, starting my engine, throwing it into gear and crawling away as fast as my tracks will carry me.
I exclude gvs from this as on the other guys front end he dove just past .
However on your it looks as he flies into you.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Blagard
So how is "fault" determined?
I have experienced a fair few collisions recently. Some my "own fault", typically hitting a bomber when leaving it too late to break off although I don't recall the text colour it would probably be orange!. Most other times in a dogfight when I may not have even seen the other aircraft.
Edit:
LOL come to think of it I have had the same as Tinman (post below).
There is no blame . Just faulty judgment.
It's the fault for getting to close in the first place.
I posted film on this before.
You want to play the slow twity turny game you takes your chances.
I have collided and said to myself "Why in the hell did I not just reposition instead of forcing a bad angle.".
Bronk
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Originally posted by eilif
Posted by LTARghst
I dont mind ram tards, they just blow up when they hit me and i get the kill, there is no way to actualy ram someone in this game and cause them damage so whats the problem? The only true ram tards out there are ones who make BBS threads about how they are getting rammed.
Who is this guy. Understand the illustration Mussie, but I am talking about the ones who fly straight at youspraying 2.0 out miss then when you break they run into intentionally. And its funny cause when they ramm me, I go down and they get kill.
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I dont think anyone rams intentionaly!, except Herb at KOTH :)
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Originally posted by LTARghst
And its funny cause when they ramm me, I go down and they get kill.
Because they did not collide with you.
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Do not mistake lack of talent for genius.
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Funny when I get the message so an so collided with you.
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Oh yeah why am I responding LTAR's cant fly anyways.
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Who is this guy. Understand the illustration Mussie, but I am talking about the ones who fly straight at youspraying 2.0 out miss then when you break they run into intentionally. And its funny cause when they ramm me, I go down and they get kill.
i've had latrs 5 on 1 before 4 out 5 went for ho, so might be its your style going for headon. this is how rams happen. Was fighting kev's tiffy in my tiffy film has 3 ltars trying to ho me as i was on kevs 6.
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Oh yeah why am I responding LTAR's cant fly anyways.
When you do yer HO'ing in Niki's. So yes, why are you responding?
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Originally posted by rod367th
i've had latrs 5 on 1 before 4 out 5 went for ho, so might be its your style going for headon. this is how rams happen. Was fighting kev's tiffy in my tiffy film has 3 ltars trying to ho me as i was on kevs 6.
They prefer to HO, you are correct Rod.
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My favorite is when I'm one target surrounded by about 10 or so other green planes, and yet I'll still have FIVE GUYS all ganging me and completely disregarding the other target options.
Or...
One plane rolling or landing. Fifteen cons defending the field, and the five or so red planes that pop up always go for the vulch rather than neutralize the bigger threats....
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Originally posted by Saxman
My favorite is when I'm one target surrounded by about 10 or so other green planes, and yet I'll still have FIVE GUYS all ganging me and completely disregarding the other target options.
Or...
One plane rolling or landing. Fifteen cons defending the field, and the five or so red planes that pop up always go for the vulch rather than neutralize the bigger threats....
So true! :rofl
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not complaining they ho. I don't care how anyone else plays game as long as its fair.
When guy goes for ho i know hes easy kill. only time ho'ing cons scarey is when your fighting 1 guy and here comes horde hoing you as you fight guy.
And i might say to new guy or vet shooting a plane on fire no wings not cool.
other than that if you go for ho Please do not complain when you lose. 99% of guys seeing you cry on 200 losing ho know you just lost jousting match.
flying a tempest I get atleast 4 or 5 ho attempts a sortie. Only died to 1 ho and that was a tempest I was chasing. I didn't think guy in tempest would ho. I learn lesson Guys will ho in perk planes too thought since his team had 180 players we had 48 didn't think he would just peepee perks away.
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You missed my point Rod. :)
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I can't remember who it was, but I was in a 1A Corsair and ran across a -4. The guy didn't have a CLUE how to use the thing. All he did was try and HO every time I had him out in front. Finally I got just enough off-angle on his front quarter I could press an attack without eating a face full of .50cal in return.
Not saying anything about it being a waste of perks, but the F4U-4 has WAY too many tools to ignore them all and go for the HO.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
When you do yer HO'ing in Niki's. So yes, why are you responding?
Sorry Dont fly Niki
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Mashercrum you are always right. Thats all LTAR's do is HO and Ramm an Cheat.
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Mashercrum you are always right. Thats all LTAR's do is HO and Ramm an Cheat.
Cute, but no I'm not always right, however when not in a gv, I'm usually facing HO's.
Keep directing anger towards me, I feed off of it, and laugh while you get even more pissed off at a game.
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Sorry Dont fly Niki
Wait, you're with the IL2 crowd. My bad, same "style" though.
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Wrong again hate IL...sorry to keep dissapointing you...you will be alright.
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Nothing you could do to possibly anger me. So if you feed off it you will starve.
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:O <<<<<<<
To those who can avoid the Ho, , to those who can Ho before being Ho'ed, . Maybe in another 5 years I'll get it all figured out :cool:
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Send out a "squad email".
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To Mars, Mash, Rod and others:
Why HO, you ask? Its part of the "mentality" you deride.
In the AvA, I rarely / almost never HO; because in there, it is all about the fight. This matches up with the "mentality" you folks play with every day in the MA.
In the MA, my "mentality" is different because it isn't just about the fight to me. In the MA we have a goal outside of pure fighting, such as capturing or defending a base.
When in that mode, the main thing is to get the other guy out of the sky as quickly as possible so he does not have the chance to mess up what you are trying to accomplish (examples: notice / kill the M-3 or goon, or simply outlast you until more help arrives for his side, trying to break up their base cap, etc.).
If that means HOing him, so be it. It gets him out of the sky and buys the rest of the team time to get the job done. The goal at that point is something other than having that marvelous ACM fight you folks are looking for.
If I want an ACM fight I personally go to the AvA or (rarely) the DA. No one else is depending on me to do my part for the "goal" in there. But in the MA, it's "goon is close, clear the sky", and if that means HOing that guy who is headed in my direction, darned right I do it.
I don't expect you to agree with it, just trying to explain it.
P.S. LMAO ghst, I thought you understood the collision model!
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The only ltar I have run across that doesn't instinctively "HO" is.......... Ltarget.
Just my experience.
Bronk
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Originally posted by E25280
To Mars, Mash, Rod and others:
Why HO, you ask? Its part of the "mentality" you deride.
In the AvA, I rarely / almost never HO; because in there, it is all about the fight. This matches up with the "mentality" you folks play with every day in the MA.
In the MA, my "mentality" is different because it isn't just about the fight to me. In the MA we have a goal outside of pure fighting, such as capturing or defending a base.
When in that mode, the main thing is to get the other guy out of the sky as quickly as possible so he does not have the chance to mess up what you are trying to accomplish (examples: notice / kill the M-3 or goon, or simply outlast you until more help arrives for his side, trying to break up their base cap, etc.).
If that means HOing him, so be it. It gets him out of the sky and buys the rest of the team time to get the job done. The goal at that point is something other than having that marvelous ACM fight you folks are looking for.
If I want an ACM fight I personally go to the AvA or (rarely) the DA. No one else is depending on me to do my part for the "goal" in there. But in the MA, it's "goon is close, clear the sky", and if that means HOing that guy who is headed in my direction, darned right I do it.
I don't expect you to agree with it, just trying to explain it.
P.S. LMAO ghst, I thought you understood the collision model!
Amazing I really can careless if someone HO's me or not as I normally win them. I've cold passed a 110G2 in a spit1, with him firing and missing, only to shoot him down on the next pass.
Again, Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.
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Originally posted by E25280
P.S. LMAO ghst, I thought you understood the collision model!
Bet someone got orange text again. :D
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Bet someone got orange text again. :D
Bronk
:rofl
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Originally posted by E25280
To Mars, Mash, Rod and others:
Why HO, you ask? Its part of the "mentality" you deride.
In the AvA, I rarely / almost never HO; because in there, it is all about the fight. This matches up with the "mentality" you folks play with every day in the MA.
In the MA, my "mentality" is different because it isn't just about the fight to me. In the MA we have a goal outside of pure fighting, such as capturing or defending a base.
When in that mode, the main thing is to get the other guy out of the sky as quickly as possible so he does not have the chance to mess up what you are trying to accomplish (examples: notice / kill the M-3 or goon, or simply outlast you until more help arrives for his side, trying to break up their base cap, etc.).
If that means HOing him, so be it. It gets him out of the sky and buys the rest of the team time to get the job done. The goal at that point is something other than having that marvelous ACM fight you folks are looking for.
If I want an ACM fight I personally go to the AvA or (rarely) the DA. No one else is depending on me to do my part for the "goal" in there. But in the MA, it's "goon is close, clear the sky", and if that means HOing that guy who is headed in my direction, darned right I do it.
I don't expect you to agree with it, just trying to explain it.
what part of i don't care if someonme goes for ho you don't get?
i've had great fights in ma i'll turn fight in tempest if its 1 on 1 but if i can see guys has rudder pedals you bet with my twist stick i'll use planes speed find new target. I can turn with most untill skilled pilot with rudder pedals. pedals make huge dif in turn fight,...............And yes i would get rudder pedals if I had legs to use them.
P.S. LMAO ghst, I thought you understood the collision model!
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This post was not about the HO. It was about the Ram. No I dont guess I understand collision model. Yesterday defending 28 I was rammed about 5-6 times. Four by the same person who is a noob. I was in Hurri which is not a fast palne as everyone knows. Was rammed 2 times from the rear and 3 or 4 from the front. I died on all these collisions and he got kill..messages were in white. While he flew off as if nothing happened. So NO I guess I dont understand.
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Film?
Bronk
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No but I am gald you mentioned it. Gonna start filming.
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Originally posted by LTARghst
This post was not about the HO. It was about the Ram. No I dont guess I understand collision model. Yesterday defending 28 I was rammed about 5-6 times. Four by the same person who is a noob. I was in Hurri which is not a fast palne as everyone knows. Was rammed 2 times from the rear and 3 or 4 from the front. I died on all these collisions and he got kill..messages were in white. While he flew off as if nothing happened. So NO I guess I dont understand.
Then he probably shot you before colliding with you.
If he was still flying afterwards, then it was a glancing blow to him.
I remember losing a tail wheel to a collision once . . . I am sure the other guy was saying "WTF? He collided with me and didn't take any damage!" Well, I did take damage, just not to anything vital.
And back to rod and mash, I didn't think you were "mad" about them, but you seemed to be wondering why some folks go for the HO all the time. Example:
Originally posted by rod367th
Was fighting kev's tiffy in my tiffy film has 3 ltars trying to ho me as i was on kevs 6.
So, you were on Kev's 6, and the guys went for the HO to clear a countryman. The need to do it quickly (before you killed Kev) existed. If they took the time to maneuver into a better (non-HO) position, they may have been too late.
There is also always the possibility of definition. I have seen arguments on the BBs about HO vs high deflection shot, so . . .
Not sure why I am bothering about it -- bored and looking for a rational "discussion" I suppose.
Anyway, hope to see you all in the air so I can try to ram you. :aok
Hey, someone says it can't be done, others say it happens regularly -- I'm taking it as a challenge! :t
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Originally posted by Bronk
Bet someone got orange text again. :D
Bronk
you're clueless dude...you type for the sake of typing...
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I rammed a panzer with my IL-2 before, does that count for anything?
I did it on purpose too :D
(I flew right through it and I only lost my engine oil in the process) :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GooseAW
you're clueless dude...you type for the sake of typing...
Really, so are you saying if you get orange text. Your front end doesn't detect a collision? IE your plane occupying the same space as enemy's.
If so please post film, I'd love to see it.
Bronk
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Been a little while since I posted and no time to read back but,....
I think I was saying that, orange text has no bearing on who actually initiated the ramm. It seems strictly based on connection. 1 player in particular seems to try for the ramm in his LA as soon as he realizes he's outflown. in 3 encounters in the same day with this player he managed to ramm me 3 times! 2 of which I got the orange text while trying to avoid his dweebness.
And I think I was in a bad mood when I first posted in response to you.. :aok
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yeah i hate the ramming too, but what i dont get is sometimes the guy rams u. you lose a wing or something, and the other guy that rammed u is ok. wtf
P51srule:aok
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Originally posted by GooseAW
Been a little while since I posted and no time to read back but,....
I think I was saying that, orange text has no bearing on who actually initiated the ramm. It seems strictly based on connection. 1 player in particular seems to try for the ramm in his LA as soon as he realizes he's outflown. in 3 encounters in the same day with this player he managed to ramm me 3 times! 2 of which I got the orange text while trying to avoid his dweebness.
And I think I was in a bad mood when I first posted in response to you.. :aok
You my friend have just proven you are the one with "no clue".
Let me clue you in. Collisions are detected client side, that is to say on your pc.
So what you see is what you get. After a collision has been detected 2 things happen.
1. Orange text telling you a collision occurred. Orange
2. Your front end sends a private text to the player you collided with. White
I'll see if can find the films I posted before and repost here.
Bronk
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it could infact be all the new guys trying way to hard to shoot you down, and if his pipper is pointing at you, and he doesnt move, hes going to hit you
they come hurtling in a 400mph rolling and spraying at your plane, ive done it a few times, although it is generally in a knifefight and he appears over my cockpit as we both manuevre for angles :P
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Thread.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196872&highlight=collision
Films re-uploaded.
enemy view
http://www.speedyshare.com/111730354.html
my view
http://www.speedyshare.com/651347756.html
In each film slow it down to .25.
Go to tangles view external and adjust so above and watching 6.
I get orange text then go pooof.
Tangle gets white text and watches me go poof.
Film don't lie.
I suggest you film sorties for a bit and look at collisions.
Try to understand that in the enemy view he is not hitting you.
Bronk
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After a gozillion posts on this subject, an audio clip of HT explaining it at the convention and I bet not 10% of AH players understand the collision model.
I haven't counted but I bet the % is less than that in this thread.
Bronk, very good explanations but you are wasting your time. Some don't get it and I believe that some don't want to get it.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Bronk, very good explanations but you are wasting your time. Some don't get it and I believe that some don't want to get it.
Thank you. I have to try, as it is one of my pet peeves.
I wish someone with more talent than me would do a wmv side by side of those 2 films.
Bronk
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There's been film, discussions, lectures, illustrations, a chunk of the actual code, and not one single screenshot or film (at least that I've seen) that shows the collision model working differently than has been described, and yet people still refuse to believe it works consistently, and as intended.
Ain't thata hoot?
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Is it me or is ther a major influx of people getting rammed more lately due to the fact of a large number of Noobs. Was defending a base yesterday and was rammed many times. These were guys never heard of so figured NOOBS. Was rammed by the same guy 3 times at one base. This Noob made it an effort to pull up into me everytime I broke off. Started spraying 2 out. Is it just me?
Thank 's be to what ever powers that none of us so called vet's came to this game noob's .
And if they really bother you just get SR to spanh em in the DA .
Sax owns TW9 .
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Whole premise invalid.
There has not "been" an increase in rams. I havent seen a collsion in weeks....unless its one that I let happen by getting too close.
Just a thought for those who A) Don't believe the explanations, and 2) think the "collision model is screwy."
This is a simulation. For a month, try flying AS IF you really were in a metal airplane, and that you would die if you ran into something. In real life, that would mean you didnt cut it close, because you wouldnt want your airplane to hit the other metal things in the sky. After all, you never knwo what the other lunatics on the road are going to do, so you give them some margin of error when driving..right?
You will find that magically "all those other ace pilots" stop "ramming you."
BTW, for those who are honestly trying to understand the thing -- don't get confused between "whose fault" the ram, is, and whose "front end" saw the ram happened.
Regardless of who could have avoided the accident last, all that matters is who's computer saw the planes intersect. SO if HE pulled up into YOU based on what YOUR COMPUTER saw, then "you collided" with him. OTOH, if he pulled up to avoid you on his front end, he may have missed completely and should not be punished for your inability to stay safe.
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Originally posted by Blagard
So how is "fault" determined?
Fault always lies with the pilot of your plane. It's your job to avoid contact with all objects in the air - Bullets, bombs, rockets and planes included.
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Originally posted by Booz
Fault always lies with the pilot of your plane. It's your job to avoid contact with all objects in the air - Bullets, bombs, rockets and planes included.
Sig material, sir!
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the bullets ram me:(
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To HO or NOT to HO..... that is the question
Ho shots to me are a matter of need....
if you get where im goin here.
if im out numbered 5v1 i garantee the first front end i see is getting nailed
if im protecting a squady i will ho
my personal favorite is the RUN HOer
you know that guy that extends 2+k then turns in full speed
after maybe one or two HO passes ill shoot back
once again you may see the need here
LTAR's are a class act squad
if they are hoin its usually out of need
and once again the old arguement comes up
its there money ;)
On the ramming subject it happens
both parties fault for not avoiding even when you avoid there is no garantee you will get away from the RAMMER
but it happens deal with it move on
thats just my 2 cents
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Originally posted by Wannab
To HO or NOT to HO..... that is the question
On the ramming subject it happens
both parties fault for not avoiding even when you avoid there is no garantee you will get away from the RAMMER
but it happens deal with it move on
thats just my 2 cents
Bzzzzzzzt wrong
look at films i posted.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
You my friend have just proven you are the one with "no clue".
Let me clue you in. Collisions are detected client side, that is to say on your pc.
So what you see is what you get. After a collision has been detected 2 things happen.
1. Orange text telling you a collision occurred. Orange
2. Your front end sends a private text to the player you collided with. White
I'll see if can find the films I posted before and repost here.
Bronk
Actually, oh mighty chief too much time on hands, I am far from clueless. I am however far from a techie. So I therefore do not understand nor particularly care to understand how it all works. What I do care about is what I see on my "front end" as you put it. What I see in the instances I am referring to is a player who can't get my six, so he goes all out to RAMM me. Orange or white, I've had em both but in every instance I am trying to avoid the HO/RAMM and watch the tard pull wildly into me.
I guess your point is that these others are not seeing it as I do which would possibly remove the blame from them. if that's the case then the techies need to fix it. Personnally I rarely get rammed but that one instance where the same guy rammed me and several others several times is highly annoying. Perhaps with your expertise you can help HTC fix this issue.... It seems to me that in a ramm only the eye can say who rammed who, so how can the system say who gets orange and who gets white. If I'm flyin straight and level and the enemy flies straight up my 6 and through me, and I get the "orange text", are you going to say I rammed him?
I don't care to get in a pissing match with you or any others over this and don't have the time to do so, or to do the research to have a war of words.
All I think most posters here care about is what they see...
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Goose DL those 2 very short films.
You can then see why the orange text player is the one at fault.
Fault being not maintaining enough separation.
There is NO issue with the collision model.
There are people who are ignorant on how it works.
I can't help educate those on how it works if they're not willing to learn.
As far as what you "see" is exactly that.
You see your plane touching another you hit.
On the other guys he be much farther away.
Bronk
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Originally posted by GooseAW
int is that these others are not seeing it as I do which would possibly remove the blame from them. if that's the case then the techies need to fix it.
You can't "fix" that. Internet signals can't be faster than speed of light. And the numerous processing instances between you and your enemies computer add some time to that lag.
To intentionally RAM you, an enemy must must head to a specific EMPTY point in air (on HIS Front End) where he thinks YOUR plane and HIS "target drone" collide on YOUR front end.
As nobody knows how big the combined lag is, nobody really knows what the other is seeing on his respective front end.
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Originally posted by GooseAW
Perhaps with your expertise you can help HTC fix this issue.... It seems to me that in a ramm only the eye can say who rammed who, so how can the system say who gets orange and who gets white. If I'm flyin straight and level and the enemy flies straight up my 6 and through me, and I get the "orange text", are you going to say I rammed him?
You are operating under several false assumptions, the biggest of which is that there is an "issue" to begin with. There is not.
There is no "eye" who determines who hit who. This is not BF1942 where everyone is essentially logged onto one server where all the action resides. AH resides entirely on the client's PCs, not the server.
The server is essentially only a data transfer point. It acts as the hub through which all the PCs send everyone elses PCs their positional data. So, when a collision happens, it is because your PC detected that your plane's position and the position of the other plane have intersected. I repeat, YOUR PC DECIDES IF THERE IS A COLLISION -- NOT THE HTC SERVER.
There is no "Rammer" and "Rammee" in the code. There is only the detection of two objects occupying the same point in space. You either collide, or you don't. Fault has nothing to do with it. Who was flying straight and who was turning has nothing to do with it. There is only the fact that YOUR PC says your plane was in the same position as another object.
Due to internet lag, the other guy, playing the game on HIS PC, with his own SEPARATE reality, will see your relative positions a little differently. Bronk's films, if you bother to look at them, demonstrate this quite clearly.
And guess what? I am not a techie either. If I can understand this, anyone can.
: Get over this stupid nonsense about people intentionally ramming someone else. Guess what -- if he intentionally tries to ram you, unless it is from dead-bang head on, chances are he will collide and you will not. If you doubt it, get with a buddy and go to the DA and try to intentionally ram one another. I think you would be surprised.
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Originally posted by E25280
SNIP
Dang, even a mud crawler gets it.:D :aok
LTARget.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Dang, even a mud crawler gets it.:D :aok
LTARget.
Bronk
Yeah, now if I can only convince LTARghst. :lol
:aok
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Oh disregard you guys didnt get what I was trying to say on here.
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I think I do ghst,
The point I think you are trying to make is what I think I was replying to.
It's really not a big deal to me but it does seem that a few recently are intentionally ramming. I guess those with superior technical knowledge are saying that that's impossible...let's kill bad guys now.
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While there may be a lot of newer players who don't really understand what's going on, and how collisions work, they cannot consistently, intentionally, fly into you and cause you to take damage, unless they shoot you. If you're consistently getting damaged in collisions, you need to quit flying into all these clueless noobs.
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yes the rams have gone up in numbers. are they on purpose who knows does it look like it is yes. can it be done i am not going to say it cant who knows what and what cannot be done these days. belittle someone over a qestion for information is not called for. all ghst was asking for is does it seem like there is alot more rams then normal and do they seem to be done on purpose.
all you had to say was 1 yes there are alot of rams latly yes they do seem like they are done on purpose 2 ya there are alot of rams lately on purpose i dont think so
in those answers alone are no trash talking about someone just what i thought
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heh an LTAR crying about getting "Rammed".
Oh the Horror.....
An LTAR's point of view:
"Regardless what happens, When I win, I am the greatest and should get all the WTG's I can. When I lose its something wrong with the game and its always, always, always, someone elses fault."
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Above statement is meant in jest ;)
Seriously. It Is ;)
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Originally posted by LTARkilz
yes the rams have gone up in numbers. are they on purpose who knows does it look like it is yes. can it be done i am not going to say it cant who knows what and what cannot be done these days. belittle someone over a qestion for information is not called for. all ghst was asking for is does it seem like there is alot more rams then normal and do they seem to be done on purpose.
all you had to say was 1 yes there are alot of rams latly yes they do seem like they are done on purpose 2 ya there are alot of rams lately on purpose i dont think so
in those answers alone are no trash talking about someone just what i thought
Point taken, Kilz, but the problem is the word "ram", which denotes something intentional. As has been beaten to death in this thread and others, it is hard/impossible to intentionally ram someone and cause the other guy damage. When people complain about "rams", they usually claim the opponent somehow intentionally caused them damage and then flew off scott free. Due to ghst's choice of words, this seemed to be what he meant.
So, lets reword the original post a bit, using "collide" instead of "ram":
Originally posted by LTARghst
Is it me or is there a major influx of people colliding more lately due to the fact of a large number of Noobs. Was defending a base yesterday and was collided with many times. These were guys I never heard of so figured NOOBS. Was collided with by the same guy 3 times at one base. This Noob made it an effort to pull up into me everytime I broke off. Started spraying 2 out. Is it just me?
Well, I must say, that does put a whole different meaning to the post and question. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
So, to answer the reworded question, yes, there seems to be a lot more noobs than is usual. Today, I saw three different guys try to vulch a friendly (who, btw, was also a noob and ended up crashing several times trying to avoid the vulch :lol ) at the SAME BASE within 10 minutes of one another. It was - em - perplexing.:huh
Once I explained to the guy getting vulched that the friendlies couldn't hurt him, and to ignore them, he at least got wheels up. (Well, ok, I had to tell him to hit "g", but he did get wheels up.) Also suggested he try the TA -- but he pretty much kept asking questions on country instead.
While the influx of newbies can be distracting (if not annoying), it is a good thing for the game. Hope they last long enough to learn something.
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Ty Gents!
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if this happens in the little cartoon world that exists on your computer than you have collided ... notice the damage model makes some intricate calculations to determine who takes what damage (if any)
now I'm betting it wasn't intentional but they both got a you have collided message and it doesn't matter "whose fault it was" the planes that collide ,,have a collision.
when reality collides (http://www.break.com/index/two_planes_collide.html)
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Looks like the plane with the red underside flew off scott free. :noid
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i just sayin it does look like it was done on purpose. was it no but its what it looks like thats all :D
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Originally posted by Bronk
If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
That is all.
Bronk
and when you "Collide" with someone with your rear. while going forward.
How is that your fault?
Last night Im chasing a Tempast when I see tracer rounds going past me from behind. Before I can even take any evasive action the next thing I see is a "You have collided" and my plane is spiraling down.
Ok I understand the my front end . His front end.
I just think that if they cant consistantly register the collision on both ends they should get rid of collisions alltogether.
Because without it registering on both ends
It does absolutely nothing to add to the emmersion of the game
Only aggrivates the pi$$ out of people
and causes alot of greif and arguements here
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
and when you "Collide" with someone with your rear. while going forward.
How is that your fault?
.....snip
To be blunt, its your fault because you didnt keep enough SA to see him coming and get out of the way. Like when you step onto a roadway, its just as much your responsibility to be safe as it is the other drivers'.
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
...I just think that if they cant consistantly register the collision on both ends they should get rid of collisions alltogether.
Because without it registering on both ends....
Until you figure out how to make electrons move faster than the speed of light, there is simply no way to make collisions register on both front ends. The game effect of the time differences, caused by the distances the signals have to travel, amounts to planes' positions being literally hundreds of feet shifted between front ends.
thats life, and HTC has made what seems to be the best setup given the limits of our time/space continuum.
Bottom line is, if you keep your plane from occuplying the same space as another one -- if you FLY as if you didnt want to collide with the objects you see, as if the idea really scared you (simulation iummersion, right?) -- then YOU WILL NOT COLLIDE.
With a few exceptions, of course. I can top your horror story, Dred -- I was attacking a set of buffs, chewing them up. As I swept in across the 6 (Not parking there), AT THAT MOMENT his planes warped 500 feet backwards. That moved their positions THROUGH mine, and I took the collision. Because I was hundreds of feet offset on his end, he didnt collide with me, so he took no damage.
Even so, I think the system is simply the only way to do things. If HE died, when all he saw was my plane 500 feet away, he would have even more right to be upset than I did. I absolutely DO NOT want to be dying all the time because some doofus on the other end cant figure out how to avoid me, even when I am using ACM to its fullest to set him up for a fair kill.
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Me thinks this horse is dead. :rolleyes:
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Bottom line. Nobody I dont care how uber they are has perfect SA all the time.
I've also "collided" with people underneith me whom I didnt even knw where there.
Your point about the backwards warping Buffs is well taken though, and all the more reason to do away with collisions.
Obviouisly not all "collisions" are unavoidable as your buff encounter points out.
There simply is no need for them if they cant be modeled to detect collisions on both ends consistantly.
And yes I know they cant. THAT was part of my point
It does ZERO for the game. Emmersion or otherwise
All it does is piss people off about "This ace pilot hit me and only I took the damage."
and cause alot of arguements here.
It doesnt even help deter the HO as people do it anyway. Which would be the main reason I can see to have it to begin with.
Without having the ability to consistantly have the collisions register on both ends I can see no logical reason to have it.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Without having the ability to consistantly have the collisions register on both ends I can see no logical reason to have it.
It would wreak havoc with this game...
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Me and 2,000+ other noobs would be flying straight through you, guns blazing, trigger taped down, if there were no collisions. I've misplaced my rose-tinted glasses, so I can remember what it was like when collisions were disabled.
I cannot see any logic whatsoever in the argument that collisions should be disabled because you flew through the same space as the plane underneath you. There are a few people who seem really hung up on this "fault" thing, to the point of disregarding the obvious.
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Dred you have already stated you refuse to film anything.
I don't care the reason why.
With the speeds in game and limited cpit view it is all but impossible to tell what happened unless you film.
So if wish to remain ignorant of what going on around you thats your prerogative.
I'll bet you didn't even look at the films I posted.
If you did tell me why I shouldn't take damage in it.
But I can say sometime during that flight your plane tried to occupy the same space as another. I don't care what part or how you were flying.
On your opponents front end he might have been 100-200 away.
The fact is you let a plane get in withing striking distance.
Due to poor SA, poor ACM, getting back from afk, or just plain out flown.
There is no "blame" when 2 or more AC enter a close quarter fight accidents can happen.
Bronk
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
...snip...
Obviouisly not all "collisions" are unavoidable as your buff encounter points out.
There simply is no need for them if they cant be modeled to detect collisions on both ends consistantly.
...snip...
Without having the ability to consistantly have the collisions register on both ends I can see no logical reason to have it.
I strongly disagree with your conclusion. Here's why:
This is a simulation.
In real life, if 2 planes collide, bad things happen.
In the simulation, bad things should happen too -- but the internet means different things happen in different front ends.
In Aces High, you have a complete guarantee -- if you do not come close enough for another pilot to hit you, you will not collide. Its that simple. Its predicatbale, and if you change YOUR flight style the collisions will stop.
That seems to be a much better soltution than elimnating collisions altogether, which favors the lame and the newbb over the skilled. All you have to do is to fly more realistically (like the real pilot who couldnt know what his opponenet would do) and the collision "problem" will go away.
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If collisions weren't enabled, the game would be unplayable. People would hold the trigger down and try to fly right through your plane, shooting all the while.
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Ive been rammed by ltars more than any one player lol. The handicap sticker with a osti in the window was a dead giveaway. Like it was stated a ram is hard to pull off normally I tell myself good ho, but bad reaction too the targets path. Gotta think if two people are closing at combined speeds of 600-800mph and you knock something off that plane good odds they are coming at you. Thats the risk of a ho.
90prf
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More often then not rams are accidental....However if you ram me and I'm maneuvering to avoid you. Then WTG....If you can steer your "plane" into me when i'm doing whatever I have to do to keep out of your gunsite's then I'm sure you have the ability to shoot me down. Hitting a "plane" with bullets that is maneuvering around is a hell of alot easier than it is to ram it.
IMO if you say "Rams" are intentional then you are saying that your opponent is an exeptional driver. If he isn't then you need to work on getting the hell out of the way.
:D
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Here's one for ya... I shot down a lone b-24 the other night, it first loses it's wing and the explodes, I pass through the fireball and get the kill and then see a semi-transparent b-24 image appear in front of my plane that I fly through and then my plane loses a wing and I get the message that I've collided. It's gotta be this lag thing you guys are talking about or I collided with his avenging ghost...............:)
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[SIZE=36]FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ITS NOT ABOUT WHO IS AT FAULT DEAL WITH IT........[/SIZE]
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IN
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Originally posted by Bronk
Dred you have already stated you refuse to film anything.
I don't care the reason why.
With the speeds in game and limited cpit view it is all but impossible to tell what happened unless you film.
So if wish to remain ignorant of what going on around you thats your prerogative.
I'll bet you didn't even look at the films I posted.
If you did tell me why I shouldn't take damage in it.
But I can say sometime during that flight your plane tried to occupy the same space as another. I don't care what part or how you were flying.
On your opponents front end he might have been 100-200 away.
The fact is you let a plane get in withing striking distance.
Due to poor SA, poor ACM, getting back from afk, or just plain out flown.
There is no "blame" when 2 or more AC enter a close quarter fight accidents can happen.
Bronk
I dont refuse to film anything. in Fact I'd LOVE to film stuff.
But without beign able to name the film after each flight. what ends up happening is I when I do run it. half the time I forget to turn the darn thing off and most of the time I end up with a whole bunch of films on my HD I never watch
And with the current labeling system. I honestly wont remember what time it was a specific incident took place
All Im asking with the films is the option to have it auto turn off after each flight or at least the option of being able to save/not save and rename the films after each flight.
I know this very thought was brought up at the con and I heard with my own ears a member of HTC saying it was "Doable"
I just wish they'd actually do it.
I understand my end, your end etc etc
I also understand that because of what each player sees on "his " end may be different they cant consistantly model collisions to be seen on each end. because each end doesnt see it the same way most of the time.
Because it cant. and because collisions it doesnt stop anyone from flying straight at you guns blazing anyway.
Happens to me every night. So its obviously not much of a deterrent.
I do not see the point in having it as all it does is irratate people and adds nothing to the game but arguements
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Originally posted by Ghastly
If collisions weren't enabled, the game would be unplayable. People would hold the trigger down and try to fly right through your plane, shooting all the while.
No for the same reason people will try to avoid the HO.
The more experienced will still try to keep from getting hit from oncomming bullets just as they do now
but there are still people hold the trigger down and try to fly through your plane now as it is collisions or no collisions
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
but there are still people hold the trigger down and try to fly through your plane now as it is collisions or no collisions
Exactly! And with collisions enabled, the guys who fly through your plane take damage, instead of just flying through it! Brilliant!
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
snipppet...... There are a few people who seem really hung up on this "fault" thing, to the point of disregarding the obvious.
All due respect Hubs....
Obvious thing to me is....when 2 planes hit in mid air...at 200-500 MPH....niether are leaving that area in one piece or 1 leaving with no damage.
I have listened to the HT thing and loked at films.....Still dont get it.
If BOTH ends see something happend....Then Both should be damaged or dead.
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Originally posted by RedTop
If BOTH ends see something happend....Then Both should be damaged or dead.
If both ends see something, they do both get damaged or dead.
But if only ONE sees something, only he gets damaged or dead.
What could be more fair?
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Originally posted by RedTop
All due respect Hubs....
Obvious thing to me is....when 2 planes hit in mid air...at 200-500 MPH....niether are leaving that area in one piece or 1 leaving with no damage.
I have listened to the HT thing and loked at films.....Still dont get it.
If BOTH ends see something happend....Then Both should be damaged or dead.
If both ends do see something happen they both take damage.
Son of a b. Look at the damn films i posted. Collision taken from 2 different front ends.
Why should both take damage if 1 was nowhere near.
Bronk
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Originally posted by E25280
If both ends see something, they do both get damaged or dead.
But if only ONE sees something, only he gets damaged or dead.
What could be more fair?
Ok..let me ask for the final time...then Im not ever asking again....
If flying down towards you....I shoot and miss( my norm ) and you see a mesage in white letters RedTop has collided with you.....I see you have collided.....Am I missing the wing or are you?
or
I am the one being dropped on....and I see you...I take evasives and I see you have collided...and you see RedTop has collided with you it in white letters...my wing gone?
or...
vise versa on both accounts.
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You take damage.
On the other players screen he could be 100-200 away.
More than likely it looked like you dove past his 6.
Red please dl those 2 short films and look at em external and slow.
25 to 50% speed it really is enlightening.
If you get both colors of text both take damage.
Bronk
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Ill do it when I get home...maybe put this to bed in my mind finnally.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Exactly! And with collisions enabled, the guys who fly through your plane take damage, instead of just flying through it! Brilliant!
And as often as not the people NOT trying to fly through your plane take damage while the offender gets off with nothing.
Yet anothe reason to get rid of it
It works both ways
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If you get white text it is impossible to get damage from it.
Sheesh you take damage because he fired .
Bronk
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Originally posted by RedTop
Ok..let me ask for the final time...then Im not ever asking again....
If flying down towards you....I shoot and miss( my norm ) and you see a mesage in white letters RedTop has collided with you.....I see you have collided.....Am I missing the wing or are you?
You are missing the wing. You did not hit me with your guns. Your PC detected a collision and told you so in orange. My PC did not detect the collision. I get the white PM saying "RedTop has collided with you." I fly off scott free (and probably laughing).
But what often happens is RedTop's gunnery is dead on, shoots my tail off, then collides with my plane anyway. Then what LTARget witnesses is "RedTop has collided with you" at the same time as my tail falls off. This is what causes the confusion and angst for people who "know" they took damage from the other guy colliding. It wasn't the collision that knocked my tail off, but rather your gunnery-that-couldn't-possibly-miss-from-five-inches-away-before-hitting-me. My tail was going to fall off regardless of whether or not you collided with me afterwards.
Originally posted by RedTop
or
I am the one being dropped on....and I see you...I take evasives and I see you have collided...and you see RedTop has collided with you it in white letters...my wing gone?
Again, if you see in orange "you have collided", you have taken damage. The plane you collided with may or may not have detected a collision. If it did, you will receive at the same time "LTARget has collided with you." If you do not get the white text "LTARget has collided with you", then the other plane did not collide in his alternate/slightly offset reality.
If you see both white and orange messages, then both planes took damage of some kind. It may not be catastrophic damage (see my tailwheel example earler), but damage has been done. It is entirely possible I could lose my tailwheel (appropriate based on my PC's detection of the tailwheel scraping your rudder) while you lose your wing (appropriate based on your PC's detection of your wing slicing into mine). Again, the damage received is based entirely on what your PC determined has hit the object, and is completely independent of what the other guy's PC decides.
Hope this is clear for you now.
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And as often as not the people NOT trying to fly through your plane take damage while the offender gets off with nothing.
Nope. Entirely wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. If he "gets off with nothing" then he missed you on his FE. End of story.
What your computer displays on your front end is yours and yours alone - your own private little universe that's anywhere from a few feet to hundreds of yards "different" than everyone else's. When you collide, you and you alone are the "offender", because it happened in your own private universe. You didn't do enough to miss him. End of story.
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So, would anyone rather die every single time they see the "Soandso has collided with you message" even when you avoided him on your FE, or would you rather have those guys flying through you guns blazing without sustaining any damage themselves? There are no other alternatives.
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Dead horse. Ram on.
-SR-:noid
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Originally posted by LTARghst
Is it me or is ther a major influx of people getting rammed more lately due to the fact of a large number of Noobs. Was defending a base yesterday and was rammed many times. These were guys never heard of so figured NOOBS. Was rammed by the same guy 3 times at one base. This Noob made it an effort to pull up into me everytime I broke off. Started spraying 2 out. Is it just me?
[Remembers being rammed in the rear by an LTAR flying an La-7 when taking off in a Bf-109G6 in Jg54 skin...] Yeah, ramming is all over. If its a head on ram, im cool with it. Its half my fault. If I had turned, there would be no collision. What really pisses me off is when I get rammed from behind. There is no way I can seem to avoid these collisions. No matter what maneuver i try, its like they are aiming for the ram, because they know they will win. Ive tried rolling, diving, climbing, everything. Ive even just sat still. And every time they clip me, sometimes their entire P-51 (I find the plane that rams me the most is the P-51D) rips me a new one. THAT just pisses me off. And yeah, it seems to be happening more often nowadays. And hubsonfire, I can count on one hand the number of times I have received a collision message (been rammed by someone else but not seen it on my 'FE') and survived. I would need scientific notation to fit the number of collisions that have killed me on one line of text.
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Originally posted by Bronk
You take damage.
On the other players screen he could be 100-200 away.
More than likely it looked like you dove past his 6.
Red please dl those 2 short films and look at em external and slow.
25 to 50% speed it really is enlightening.
If you get both colors of text both take damage.
Bronk
Thanks ...helped
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Originally posted by E25280
You are missing the wing. You did not hit me with your guns. Your PC detected a collision and told you so in orange. My PC did not detect the collision. I get the white PM saying "RedTop has collided with you." I fly off scott free (and probably laughing).
But what often happens is RedTop's gunnery is dead on, shoots my tail off, then collides with my plane anyway. Then what LTARget witnesses is "RedTop has collided with you" at the same time as my tail falls off. This is what causes the confusion and angst for people who "know" they took damage from the other guy colliding. It wasn't the collision that knocked my tail off, but rather your gunnery-that-couldn't-possibly-miss-from-five-inches-away-before-hitting-me. My tail was going to fall off regardless of whether or not you collided with me afterwards.
Again, if you see in orange "you have collided", you have taken damage. The plane you collided with may or may not have detected a collision. If it did, you will receive at the same time "LTARget has collided with you." If you do not get the white text "LTARget has collided with you", then the other plane did not collide in his alternate/slightly offset reality.
If you see both white and orange messages, then both planes took damage of some kind. It may not be catastrophic damage (see my tailwheel example earler), but damage has been done. It is entirely possible I could lose my tailwheel (appropriate based on my PC's detection of the tailwheel scraping your rudder) while you lose your wing (appropriate based on your PC's detection of your wing slicing into mine). Again, the damage received is based entirely on what your PC determined has hit the object, and is completely independent of what the other guy's PC decides.
Hope this is clear for you now.
Helped alot...thanks
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Originally posted by Bronk
If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
That is all.
Bronk
That's funny because I can't think of any times I've ever seen orange text about me colliding.. Yet seems 9 out of 10 times, I'm the one that's plane loses pieces.
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Originally posted by crockett
That's funny because I can't think of any times I've ever seen orange text about me colliding.. Yet seems 9 out of 10 times, I'm the one that's plane loses pieces.
If you don't get a collision message, you don't take damage from collision.
And for all the people now now crying "but I got damage!": Enemy aircraft have the nasty habit to use their guns when getting close....
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I was rammed three times tonight, all by Bishops.
It was the same thing every time, too: I'd pull a hard right rudder after a head-on pass, and my opponent would pull into me. Only ONE time did I get a kill from that, even though none were my fault (sadly, I didn't film these, as I never turn film on).
I wasn't the only one who was catching the riptide of BS, either. Reeb was running into it, as well. Overall, it was a good night (though I landed no kills), but the incessant ramming really detracts from the experience.
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Originally posted by crockett
That's funny because I can't think of any times I've ever seen orange text about me colliding.. Yet seems 9 out of 10 times, I'm the one that's plane loses pieces.
Once again.
DL the vids.
On my front end I drive through tangles tail section, guns cold.
I smoke my motor, rip a wing off, then go poof.
On tangle's I fly up well behind , he gets white text. I start to smoke, wing comes off, then poof.
You take NO damage from white text side.
I'll take anyone who wants learn to the da and prove it.
I have had a few. They were happy to find out their perception was incorrect.
See me on ask.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Fruda
I was rammed three times tonight, all by Bishops.
It was the same thing every time, too: I'd pull a hard right rudder after a head-on pass, and my opponent would pull into me. Only ONE time did I get a kill from that, even though none were my fault (sadly, I didn't film these, as I never turn film on).
I wasn't the only one who was catching the riptide of BS, either. Reeb was running into it, as well. Overall, it was a good night (though I landed no kills), but the incessant ramming really detracts from the experience.
It's not BS. Its flying a plane. Your experience doesnt say anything about the coading, or the behavior of the other "tards."
Your experience -- and the fact that it happens over and over -- shows that you are pulling off target too late. You are cutting it close enough that you are flying through a danger zone -- that cone of positions that you can't react fast enough to avoid but that your opponent COULD fly into
It's that simple. SHoot better, or be satisfied with damage you can land safely even if he hasnt popped yet. Pull off sooner. No more colllisions.
For crying out loud people, why is this so hard? DONT GET TOO CLOSE AND YOU WONT COLLIDE. I mean, if you were in a real plane, and your life depended on your flying, would you really get so close that the other guy could ram you?
Or in real life: Do you wait to the last possible moment to hit your brakes when driving, or do you leave margin so you'd be OK even if the other guy does something stupid? And, if you follow too closely and rear end the guy, how sympathetic will the cop be if you say, "The Ram Tard didnt do the right thing, braked too hard, it's his fault"?
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So, would anyone rather die every single time they see the "Soandso has collided with you message" even when you avoided him on your FE
Repeat after me ... If you avoided him on your FE, nothing happens to you from the "collision".
However, as has been pointed out something close to 2017 times in this thread alone, the reason he collided with you on his FE is that 9 times out of 10 he was trying to get a guns solution, and the damage to your airplane was because he was still firing into your plane screaming "Die Die Die!!" when he smacktarded into your fuselage at 400+ and fireballed.
Maybe HTC could simply remove the informational "xxx has collided with you" message since it's confusing for so many people. Other flight sims I've flown just don't show it, and it's far less confusing: - you hear the bullet strikes, you take the damage from the weapons, and 9 times out of 10 you don't even realize that he smacktarded when he explodes into a fireball from the collision on his FE.
It's the stupid message that we don't even need in the first place that causes (edit-> most of) the confusion.
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I see aloot of BS (and thats exactly what it is) about it being your fault ,not evading enough, being to close etc etc.
while in alot..Ill even say most of the time it may be true. that is not always the case.
If your in a stall and "collide with someone. Its not your fault. If your fighting someone else and someone comes screaming in at you and you collide with them its not always your fault
I could go on and on. But bottom line is there can be aot of instances where its not always your fault.
And unless yor God himself nobodies SA or reflexes or forboding are that perfect
There was someone who mentioned before how a flight of buffs warped a couple hundred yards backwards and he got the collision on his end.
While someone else here is saying stay farther away.
Ok beyond 300 yards gun effectiveness starts to drop off dramatically
while I can and do consistantly hit and kill planes at 400 yards. many cant
(and is it yards or feet? Im more inclined to think feet because a plane at even 300 yards looks a hell of alot smaller IRL then it does in game. but thats a different arguement for a different thread)
So whats a "safe distance"? 600, 800? Better yet just sit in the tower then you dont have to worry about it at all.
Point is. Not my end your end. Lag etc etc etc. I personally understand all that.
My point is collisions create more problems and grief then they add to game emersion.
Every couple of weeks there is a new collision arguement here.
I cant think of nothing that is argued about more.
Collision model or no collision model people STILL try to fly planes at and through other planes.
Sometimes one side gets it. some times the other side gets it. sometimes both sides get it.
but no matter who collides with whom people still do it.
It does very little to deter this activity. so whats the point in having it if all it really does is piss people off and cause arguements.
Just turn it off and be done with it
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I was pleasantly surprised last night.
I was trying to nurse home my wounded 38. When a ki 84 picked up the chase. We ended up a flat scissor. All of a sudden I get "Hungry has collided with you.".
In stead of the expected "Ram Tard" I get "Sorry about that, I got to close.".
That brightened my whole evening, someone gets it.
Bronk
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Snip
Dred the fault is faulty judgment somewhere along the line.
If you get orange text the other guy flew to what he saw and avoided you.
Work on faster than light internet if you want to see the same picture.
Until then this is the best compromise . You fly to what you see, the enemy fly to what they see.
Bronk
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It does very little to deter this activity. so whats the point in having it if all it really does is piss people off and cause arguements.
Wrong again. It eliminates about 90% of the dweebery, because as it is now if I avoid the collision and you do not you have to start out again on the runway, and I get to continue shooting down your squaddies and countrymen. The reason that it p****s people off is that it DOES have a significant impact on their game play, and if you turn it off, then there would be 10 times the complaints over the style of game play that would result, where the only consideration is to manage to get guns on another aircraft and hold down the trigger as you fly through them.
Besides, please tell me how to model aircraft damage when the source of the
bullets might be inside the aircraft being targeted??
If you are colliding a lot then you need to fly your aircraft such that it's not possible or at minimum extremely difficult for the other player to pull into you. If you are stalling into other aircraft, you are getting too slow to control your aircraft, and you need to maintain a higher e-state. If you are running into them in the first forward quarter pass, you need to start planning your merge to gain angles or an E advantage to win the fight post-merge rather than on the approach. If you are running into them a high speed guns pass, you need to gain better control of your aircraft to get your shots in and pull off sooner. If someone warps into you, that's a different story - about the same as a disco. When it happens it's like a cost of living tax - something you accept because that's the Internet just isn't perfect, and never will be.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Repeat after me ... If you avoided him on your FE, nothing happens to you from the "collision".
However, as has been pointed out something close to 2017 times in this thread alone, the reason he collided with you on his FE is that 9 times out of 10 he was trying to get a guns solution, and the damage to your airplane was because he was still firing into your plane screaming "Die Die Die!!" when he smacktarded into your fuselage at 400+ and fireballed.
Maybe HTC could simply remove the informational "xxx has collided with you" message since it's confusing for so many people. Other flight sims I've flown just don't show it, and it's far less confusing: - you hear the bullet strikes, you take the damage from the weapons, and 9 times out of 10 you don't even realize that he smacktarded when he explodes into a fireball from the collision on his FE.
It's the stupid message that we don't even need in the first place that causes (edit-> most of) the confusion.
I was just making the point that the "both should go down" argument is flawed in almost all cases. I do agree about the message- it needs to go away, and we can go back to everyone thinking they got shot, or got lucky when the other guy blows up.
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OK, I've been through the collision drill before and I get the he saw she saw stuff but explain this one:
This past weekend I was in a Spit XVI with another (as it turns out Spit XVI) approaching from my 9:00 O'Clock. I level, turn to him and we cold merge. We both reverse. I'm coming from over the top upside down and he is coming from the bottom right-side up straight at one another. I open fire, see him light up and fly by, job done.
Next comes the ch 200 ram tard barrage. I say "I didn't get any collision message, you just died to my guns". He says, "I got one".
So, aren't we both supposed to get a collision message in a collision?
BTW, the noob ram dweed crap continued ad infinitum. Whatever.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
So, aren't we both supposed to get a collision message in a collision?
No.
Because you didnīt touch his plane on your computer/screen. No collision.
On his computer/screen there was acollision. Therefore collision message.
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Originally posted by Lusche
No.
Because you didnīt touch his plane on your computer/screen. No collision.
On his computer/screen there was acollision. Therefore collision message.
Lusche slight correction
Person who's front end detected the collision gets in orange text. "You have collided."
Person who was ran into gets in white text. "XXX has collieded with you."
Bronk
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Bronk beat me to it.
I see the arguments over the messages every night, and I tend to think it's like odds, alt, HOs, and everything else. Without seeing film from both parties involved, or at least the entirety of the text buffers, you really don't know what happened, and people aren't always completely honest where their cartoon egos are concerned.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Lusche slight correction
Person who's front end detected the collision gets in orange text. "You have collided."
Person who was ran into gets in white text. "XXX has collieded with you."
Bronk
Err.. where exactly I had to be corrected?
I simply stated: If there is NO message on your own, there is no collision (referring to Bald Eagles posting), YOU did not collide on YOUR computer,.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
So, aren't we both supposed to get a collision message in a collision?
Originally posted by Lusche
No.
Both parties get a message.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Both parties get a message.
Ehmmm..... yes, of course. Seems I had a total brain blackout for a minute. :rolleyes:
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Removed because we get it :D
Bronk
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Everyone knows that ghost physics are different. It is impossible for ghosts to collide.:noid So, this is an obvious error in code.:lol
Yes, LTARghst, it seems to me that the number of collisions is on the rise. Hey, I bet there is a stat on it somewhere. If not, maybe it should be.
_____________________
LTARs ( the squad I love to hate ):D When we gonna ride together again? The last time was a hoot -- until you ditched me:( It kinda felt ..... kinda ...... well ........... like riding dirty (homeboys:cool: hangin out the window pullin shirt up in front of babes --- sorry bout that Betty,:rofl playing loud music:t ..... and being bait for LTARckit:eek: )
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Originally posted by Bronk
If you see orange text its your own damn fault.
If you get the white text it was the other guys.
That is all.
Bronk
I disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you see Orange text it's because YOUR computer SEES the collision!
I've tried to avoid many of these RAMS and I sometimes actually manage, by just a hair, to avoid.
Sometimes what I SEE isn't what the computer SEES.
It's useless to try and record these things with the AH films. Because you WILL NOT see what you actually saw!!!
You will see what the computer SAW! AH films are a recording of what the COMPUTER sees and records!
Try using a video camera and recording what is on your screen!
AND record using the AH filmer.
At times you WILL SEE a difference when you play both of them back!!!
It will be in micro seconds so PAY ATTENTION!
The affect is due to net lag, server lag, cpu lag to vid card, etc. BUT it is there!
Unfortunately many of your rams/collisions or your avoiding the same occur in those micro seconds.
Also what the other persons computer sees and sends to the server has an affect on your AH flying!
When I had a slower vid card I would AVOID a collision on my front end, and still suffer a collision. I could SEE I avoided the collision! But when I filmed it and played it back I saw something else! Once had a LA7 come at me HO I rolled and the LA passed to my left by about 20ft. I got a collision message and down I went! Played back the film and it showed a collision. The LA flew right into me or my atempt at evading was not enough?!?!
Had to get a new vid card/cpu/mb and those things NEARLY went away/stopped.
But sometimes I still see em.
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Originally posted by wrag
Snip
Any excuse to to cover the fact.
A. You got to close.
B. You let them get to close.
In ah world.
Poor decisions on your part to not constitute collisions on my part.
Live with it.
Bronk
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All occasions where you collide happen on YOUR front end. Period.
Important to remember that "fault" (who had last chance to avoid the collision) is completely irrelevant in collision coding. All that matters is that on your computer, YOUR airplane occupied the same space as an enemy object (plane, falling bomb, whatever).
(Same in real life, now that I think about it. If it's the other guy's fault, you're plane is every bit as shattered as it would be if it were your fault.)
And in that sense, all collisions are to some major degree caused by what the highway patrol would call "failure to maintain safe distance." And that failure, folks, is always the operator's fault.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Any excuse to to cover the fact.
A. You got to close.
B. You let them get to close.
In ah world.
Poor decisions on your part to not constitute collisions on my part.
Live with it.
Bronk
Hmmm..........
So if you somehow find yourself ina BIG furball and someone collides with you from behind, or the side, or you turn to avoid one HO and find yourself in another and do all you can to avoid BUT still get a collision, it's your fault?
So if your flying along and someone comes screaming in from alt and they miss the shot but YOU get a collsison message it's your fault?
Bronk I think what I posted is being totaly ignored.
It is a mix of net, AH server, ALL the servers in the route to and from AH and the other persons computer, and your computer, you computer speed, CPU cycles to your vid card, LATENCY/LAG.
Live with it?
IMHO the attitude displayed SUGGESTS a certain arrogance. A certain "it doesn't affect me, therefore I don't care, so TUFF" approach to things.
Perhaps I will be online when it finally happens to you. I've seen the occasional whine by some that posted the same sort of response.
Hmm......
Normally I just smile to myself and go on. BUT in your case perhaps I should make an exception?
WHEN it happens, IN YOUR OPINION... what should I do? What do you suggest? Should I CROW with laughter on 200? Should I make reference to this thread on 200? Should I announce to all on 200 all this?
Perhaps I should just wait until something happens to you while your in AH that you do care about???????????????????
Then come back with a "live with it" quote?
What do you suggest?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I see aloot of BS (and thats exactly what it is) about it being your fault ,not evading enough, being to close etc etc.
while in alot..Ill even say most of the time it may be true. that is not always the case.
If your in a stall and "collide with someone. Its not your fault. If your fighting someone else and someone comes screaming in at you and you collide with them its not always your fault
I could go on and on. But bottom line is there can be aot of instances where its not always your fault.
And unless yor God himself nobodies SA or reflexes or forboding are that perfect
There was someone who mentioned before how a flight of buffs warped a couple hundred yards backwards and he got the collision on his end.
While someone else here is saying stay farther away.
Ok beyond 300 yards gun effectiveness starts to drop off dramatically
while I can and do consistantly hit and kill planes at 400 yards. many cant
(and is it yards or feet? Im more inclined to think feet because a plane at even 300 yards looks a hell of alot smaller IRL then it does in game. but thats a different arguement for a different thread)
So whats a "safe distance"? 600, 800? Better yet just sit in the tower then you dont have to worry about it at all.
Point is. Not my end your end. Lag etc etc etc. I personally understand all that.
My point is collisions create more problems and grief then they add to game emersion.
Every couple of weeks there is a new collision arguement here.
I cant think of nothing that is argued about more.
Collision model or no collision model people STILL try to fly planes at and through other planes.
Sometimes one side gets it. some times the other side gets it. sometimes both sides get it.
but no matter who collides with whom people still do it.
It does very little to deter this activity. so whats the point in having it if all it really does is piss people off and cause arguements.
Just turn it off and be done with it
Actually IMHO I find what I said in close accord to what Dred has expressed. Or at least it was my intent to say such.
I just expressed it in a different way.
DRED
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Both parties get a message.
This was my point exactly. I didn't get a message. I looked right away as soon as the ch 200 tirade started. He claims he did get a message.
Of course I never film anything ever.
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm..........
So if you somehow find yourself ina BIG furball and someone collides with you from behind, or the side, or you turn to avoid one HO and find yourself in another and do all you can to avoid BUT still get a collision, it's your fault?
Yup I put myself in a furball where guess what... I have limited choices in maneuvering. What it's the other guys fault I decided to enter a furball?
So if your flying along and someone comes screaming in from alt and they miss the shot but YOU get a collsison message it's your fault?
I'd assume on there front end they flew past. I've done enough film examinations now to know the other guy flew to what HE has seen. You on the other hand expect him to fly by YOUR front end, something he cannot see. Again if I let him get too damn close yes it's my fault. Bad SA , ACM sleeping at the wheel I don't care. Orange text you screwed up somewhere.
Bronk I think what I posted is being totaly ignored.
No I just call em as I see em. You want to balme poor sa, acm, not paying general attention on collisions.
It is a mix of net, AH server, ALL the servers in the route to and from AH and the other persons computer, and your computer, you computer speed, CPU cycles to your vid card, LATENCY/LAG.
Yes and the collision model is the best compromise on sub light data transmission. Or have you developed warp speed internet?
Live with it?
Yes, see above text.
IMHO the attitude displayed SUGGESTS a certain arrogance. A certain "it doesn't affect me, therefore I don't care, so TUFF" approach to things.
Perhaps I will be online when it finally happens to you. I've seen the occasional whine by some that posted the same sort of response.
While I infrequently collide I understand that they sometimes happen. Usually from putting myself in a bad spot. You on the other hand feel that It's never your fault, and that the other guy must fly to what YOU see. So I guess I have to live with it also. Shame I can't bring myself to feel as special as you.
Hmm......
Normally I just smile to myself and go on. BUT in your case perhaps I should make an exception?
Ohh boy I'm going to get it now.
WHEN it happens, IN YOUR OPINION... what should I do? What do you suggest? Should I CROW with laughter on 200? Should I make reference to this thread on 200? Should I announce to all on 200 all this?
See one of my above post on what happened last night. I never say anything on 200 about collisions unless.... I get white text and the tardling says "nice ram" or some equivalent. I then try to explain the whole white text, orange text thing. But usually, like you it's never their fault. Lag, collision code's wrong, I cheat blah blah blah.
Perhaps I should just wait until something happens to you while your in AH that you do care about???????????????????
Then come back with a "live with it" quote?
What do you suggest?
Unlike you I can and have admitted to being wrong. So go ahead.
Well if you get the white text ..... Yup the live with it works for me.
There own damn fault they choose not to learn how the model works .
Or they just can't except the fact they put themselves in a position where a collision is more probable.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
This was my point exactly. I didn't get a message. I looked right away as soon as the ch 200 tirade started. He claims he did get a message.
Of course I never film anything ever.
Either he lied or you just missed the text somehow.
Bronk
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Give into your anger and your journey to the darkside will be complete.
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This thread and all other collision threads are a prime example of the fact that people just dont get it......
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:noid
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Wrong again. It eliminates about 90% of the dweebery, because as it is now if I avoid the collision and you do not you have to start out again on the runway, and I get to continue shooting down your squaddies and countrymen. The reason that it p****s people off is that it DOES have a significant impact on their game play, and if you turn it off, then there would be 10 times the complaints over the style of game play that would result, where the only consideration is to manage to get guns on another aircraft and hold down the trigger as you fly through them.
LOL you must either not spend alot of time in the MA. Or if you do then you dont spend alot of time in large fights or if you do. you do so from a lofty perch and not mix it up alot
If you are colliding a lot then you need to fly your aircraft such that it's not possible or at minimum extremely difficult for the other player to pull into you. If you are stalling into other aircraft, you are getting too slow to control your aircraft, and you need to maintain a higher e-state. If you are running into them in the first forward quarter pass, you need to start planning your merge to gain angles or an E advantage to win the fight post-merge rather than on the approach. If you are running into them a high speed guns pass, you need to gain better control of your aircraft to get your shots in and pull off sooner. If someone warps into you, that's a different story - about the same as a disco. When it happens it's like a cost of living tax - something you accept because that's the Internet just isn't perfect, and never will be.
[/QUOTE]
I dont collide alot. and when I do its more often then not from someone climbing up to take an HO shot while Im comming out of the top of a loop or from someone screaming in trying to cherry pick me while Im already involved with a fight against two or more.
Occasionally I get the ones where Im trying ot avoid the HO and the other guy turns into my evasive
and sometimes I screw up and dont pull away fast enough.
but by and large I dont collide alot. when I do it seems to come in bunches
to say all collisions are avoidable is absurd. 8im not saying that to you specifically but in general.
there are alot of instances where your involved with other things going on and simply cant keep track of everything.
The dweebery is there. collision model or no collision model.
And I fully know the difference between bullets hitting me and a collision.
One you get a "you have collided with" message the other you dont
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Dred,
You keep focusing entirely on the "blame" aspect of collisions. Don't forget that blame -- who's responsible for the collision happening -- is irrelevant to the programming. It's also irrelevant to the entire situation, since no matter WHO"S fault a real collision is, if your plane hits another one you are in deep doo doo.
Step by step....
1) The internet is not going to be perfect, so the perfect correlation between FE's isnt going to happen.
2) Our choices will therefore NOT be perfect. Designers have to pick the route that has the least unfairness, that's best for game play.
3) Turning collisions off completely means overly aggressive, unskilled, non-ACM flying becomes more successful, with less penalty -- since you can't get too close, you won't pay the price for not flying realistically.
4) Our current collision model has the problems you've detailed. But, the vast majority of collisions can be avoided, and the only bad thing about the system is that there will be a very few unavoidable collisions (like the bomber warp I talked about).
I know you don't like this, but -- I KNOW collisions can be essentially eliminated by changing your flying. I know that because I did it myself. I used to collide all the time, until I decided that I was cutting things too close, not allowing for "safe operational distancing." All I did was not cut it close, and the collisions stopped. And that includes in turn fighting furballs, where I still don't get collisions.. The only times I collide now are when I KNOW there wasn't enough distance, and I made the move anyway.
The current system is absolutely, 100% fine. It is simply the best solution in this imperfect world, because the results depend almost completely on what YOU do. It is in your control.
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If you mean the Late War arenas, yes those are where I mostly fly.
As a Corsair pilot, I do tend to avoid turning in the mass of a furball - in order to survive to land my plane, I need to keep up my speed because in AH there's a lot that can run an F4U down if it has any kind of an E advantage over it (and those planes seem to be the more popular ones) and not a heck of a lot that an F4U can outclimb, out-turn or generally out-maneuver. On the other hand, I'm still learning to handle the AH F4U and a lofty perch usually just get's me killed since I smacktard on a regular basis if I come in from too high, so I'm usually somewhere in between.
But I won't argue that there isn't a considerable amount of dweebery - every sims I've ever flown has always had what seemed like more than it's fair share of it - some because folks don't know better, some because they aren't capable of better, and some because some people are capricious and have put an amazing amount of effort into perfecting it.
What I'm actually saying is that I think that you underestimate somewhere around 10-fold the amount of dweebery that would result from pilots knowing that they could strike another vehicle without penalty. I strongly believe that disabling it would make the game so unenjoyable as to class it as nearly unplayable for the slower aircraft and vehicles.
And you are right, nobody is completely perfect, and no one is going to avoid it 100% of the time. But like smacktarding while in a dive, g-lock, or getting vulched unawares, by adjusting your flying to avoid it, it can be minimized to the point where it's nearly non-existent. Simaril essentially nails it - what we've got is pretty darn good, and if it's happening often enough to be a problem for you, you are either cutting it too fine - either leaving yourself too little time or seperation or burning E to the point where you can no longer maintain control of your aircraft.
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Hehe Chili you know you love us. You My Boy Blue!
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See Rule #5
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Fruda:
Not intending to piss anybody off. Sorry if I did that. The "collsiions problem" horse has been beaten into a monomolecular film, and it still wont go away -- wasnt it sudz who posted last time it came up?
Anyway --
First, the time delays in the internet, which amount to hundreds of feet displacements in plane position; and, the unpredicatability of opponents' behavior essentially PREVENTS intentional forced ramming on all but extreme, pure, mutually head on or head to tail collisions. Skeptics have in the past been unable to intentionally force rams when challenged to try in the DA. If you think you're right about this, I'd be happy to meet you there and let you try to make me ram you. It is almost impossible -- remember, our front ends see things hundreds of feet different. (Of course, you'd have much better chance of you ramming me on purpose -- but if I dont ram on my front end, I take no damage, which isnt a bother to me at all.
Now about your preferred last minute shot...well, you're proving my point more than yours. If you are coming so close that you RELY on the other guy doing a certain thing, you're too close. It's not rocket science, it's common sense! Planning based on enemy CAPABILITIES instead of PREDICTED INTENTIONS is a military axiom, ignored at your peril. Really -- If you decide to take a shot that could cause a lethal collision a certain % of the time...that's the other player's fault exactly how?
And about the change in the last year....I call you manure and raise you some sheep dip. If your explanation were correct -- that it was everyone else's fault -- then EVERYONE (including me) should have seen the same increas in collisions. In fact, though, I've found my collisions dramatically dropping the more experienced I get.
That's not being full of myself. I am far, far, far away from a skilled ACM master. I am not a natural at any computer game I've played. Every step I take comes from working at it, learning from others and from my own experience.
No ego here. Simplest thing for me is to walk away and let you rant. But, I can honestly say that if you choose to change your flight style, you CAN stop colliding, becuase that's exactly what happened to me.
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But that's just the thing. I'm not getting that close when I make my getaway. My problem is that it takes effort to collide with me when I go for a head-on pass. Whether or not it's pilot error on the other side or just a freak latency accident, it still happens regardless.
Though to be honest, it's only happened four times in about three days, so I guess I'm blowing it out of proportion. It's still highly annoying and equally frustrating.
Now, I did have a collision last night which was entirely my fault. I did get too close on that one, and my opponent's wing clipped my engine (resulting in an oil leak). Then again, I'm not too good in Thunderbolts anyway, so I really shouldn't've gone for the suicide pass. Even so, I usually give a hard right rudder and roll out at around 200 yards, though sometimes I will get in really close and take the risk of collision (or a well-placed shot to the cockpit).
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Originally posted by Bronk
Well if you get the white text ..... Yup the live with it works for me.
There own damn fault they choose not to learn how the model works .
Or they just can't except the fact they put themselves in a position where a collision is more probable.
Bronk
Hmmmm...............
OK lets try this.
My 1st post was an explaination. Not a condemnation.
Therefore................
IMHO Your response was UNWARRANTED.
(Do you have a personel issue with me or something? I notice in another similar thread, which Skuzzy closed, a post by yourself just under mine reffering to seeing under the plane. Was that in response to my post?)
As to you viewing enough FILMS...........
AGAIN the film records what YOUR COMPUTER saw, and NOT necassarily what YOU ACTUALLY SAW!
Don't believe me?
Try this! Get a video recorder and RECORD what your MONITOR shows, plus at the same time have the AH film recording.
Now find a situation that works your vid card and cpu HARD! Get into an area that has ALLOT of people. Fly through and take a shot here and there if you like. But get CLOSE! Stay close as long as you can. Mix it up.
When you're done..................
Pretty sure, unless you have a top of the line comp, that when you play them back side by side they will NOT be identical! And even with a top of the line comp IMHO there will still be a VERY slight difference.
I AM FULLY AWARE OF THE FOLLOWING...........
LATENCY HAPPENS!
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Originally posted by Bronk
Dred you have already stated you refuse to film anything.
I don't care the reason why.
With the speeds in game and limited cpit view it is all but impossible to tell what happened unless you film.
So if wish to remain ignorant of what going on around you thats your prerogative.
I'll bet you didn't even look at the films I posted.
If you did tell me why I shouldn't take damage in it.
But I can say sometime during that flight your plane tried to occupy the same space as another. I don't care what part or how you were flying.
On your opponents front end he might have been 100-200 away.
The fact is you let a plane get in withing striking distance.
Due to poor SA, poor ACM, getting back from afk, or just plain out flown.
There is no "blame" when 2 or more AC enter a close quarter fight accidents can happen.
Bronk
You keep dwelling on the AH filmer!!!!!!!!!!!
And I keep saying the AH filmer records what YOUR COMPTER sees!
Some of us have a vid card vs cpu issue RE: speed!
Our VID card is JUST a TAD SLOWER then our CPU. Some have more then a TAD by the way.
So in a tight fast breaking situation what we SEE is NOT always what our CPU sees and what the AH filmer is recording.
So we can avoid a collision on our monitor BUT still collide because our CPU saw a collision.
Say all you want that it's someones fault, that it's bad SA, or whatever you like. It does NOT change computer, vid card, net, servers, latency.
Earlier someone expressed they got rammed by a plane while in a GV setting still and they got the orange text message.
Hmmm........... connection, server, cpu, vid card, etc.... speed vs latency of at least 2 computers.
IMHO While connection speeds and such play a roll, it's more of a case of who's computer/cpu SEES the collision 1st.
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I think HT should make both planes die in any collision whatsoever, and once you've all chewed your arms off out of frustration, you'd understand why what we have now is the best compromise given the limitations of teh intardnet.
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Originally posted by wrag
You keep dwelling on the AH filmer!!!!!!!!!!!
And I keep saying the AH filmer records what YOUR COMPTER sees!
Some of us have a vid card vs cpu issue RE: speed!
Our VID card is JUST a TAD SLOWER then our CPU. Some have more then a TAD by the way.
So in a tight fast breaking situation what we SEE is NOT always what our CPU sees and what the AH filmer is recording.
So we can avoid a collision on our monitor BUT still collide because our CPU saw a collision.
Say all you want that it's someones fault, that it's bad SA, or whatever you like. It does NOT change computer, vid card, net, servers, latency.
Earlier someone expressed they got rammed by a plane while in a GV setting still and they got the orange text message.
Hmmm........... connection, server, cpu, vid card, etc.... speed vs latency of at least 2 computers.
IMHO While connection speeds and such play a roll, it's more of a case of who's computer/cpu SEES the collision 1st.
Let me get this straight- what you're saying, Wrag, is that what is displayed on the screen is not what's happening in the game? And that what's captured on film is a third reality altogether?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Let me get this straight- what you're saying, Wrag, is that what is displayed on the screen is not what's happening in the game? And that what's captured on film is a third reality altogether?
OK I'm saying this..................
RECORD what your monitor shows using a video camera.
AT THE SAME TIME.
RECORD using AH FILM.
Put yourself in a situation that WORKS both your CPU and your VID CARD.
Play them both back side by side.
I'm pretty sure you will find they are NOT identical. I don't think they can be. I don't think it's possible. Close but..................
For some people what they see is NOT ALWAYS what the CPU sees.
Not talking a 3rd reality.
Talking LAG between vid card, cpu, net, server, etc............
The CPU ALWAYS see everything BEFORE it tells your vid card to show you what is happening on the monitor!
So if you have a really good connect, and a high end cpu, and the best etc etc etc........
Your latency/lag is probably LOW
all the same .............
You can see a collision about to happen and move to avoid that collision BUT if you're real close or moving really fast you MAY have already collided due to latency/lag.
So a person with a low end machine can watch an AH film they recorded and find themself saying WTF? That isn't right?!?! I don't remember it that way?
The AH Film program records what the CPU sees.
THEREFORE what you saw MAY not be EXACTLY the same WHEN you play back the AH film.
BTW the AH film IS CORRECT! Because it IS what the CPU saw and thus what actually HAPPENED! But it may not always be what you remember seeing because your VID CARD got the info just a few miliseconds LATE and sent it to your monitor a few miliseconds LATE!
That is what I'm saying.
Believe me! There were times when, with my older machine, using dialup, I got popped because I was a few miliseconds behind someone. On my FE, while flyin in the sim, they WERE NOT pointing at me. When I played back the AH FILM it showed they were.
(BTW the Dallas server didn't help things either!)
Got a faster system and faster vid card and DSL. Now when it looks like they're not pointing at me they aren't pointing at me. Unless, of course, there is a net burp. Which sometimes happens.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
They prefer to HO, you are correct Rod.
Panzers always HO.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Let me get this straight- what you're saying, Wrag, is that what is displayed on the screen is not what's happening in the game? And that what's captured on film is a third reality altogether?
yea hub the .000000000000000000000001 ms it takes for your vid card to send pic to the screen sucks.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Wrag go by some tissues.
Bronk
Edit: Not to mention the.0000000000000000000000000 00000000000000001 ms it takes the cpu to tell the vid card to draw.
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I give up. It's hopeless.
You can see a collision about to happen and move to avoid that collision BUT if you're real close or moving really fast you MAY have already collided due to latency/lag.
:lol
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Originally posted by Bronk
yea hub the .000000000000000000000001 ms it takes for your vid card to send pic to the screen sucks.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Wrag go by some tissues.
Bronk
Edit: Not to mention the.0000000000000000000000000 00000000000000001 ms it takes the cpu to tell the vid card to draw.
Are you ALWAYS the worlds authority on computers, computer systems, and how they preform, under ALL circumstances?
And Are you always so ILL MANNERED?
Again.... do you Sir have a problem with ME?
Are you trying to say something?
It's not VERY DIFFICULT to say you disagree without being rude or ill mannered.
Many things affect a computer. BUT you Sir are claiming that what I reported is not possible?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I give up. It's hopeless.
:lol
And you sir are also an authority on ALL computer systems and how they preform?
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Wrag, seriously there is a lag between what your front end/cpu detects and your opponents.
But the time difference between what your cpu detects and what you see?
I'd bet the amount time is so small no human has a reaction time that could utilize that difference.
Just accept the fact that your not perfect and accidents happen.
Bronk
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wrag: Your assessment is inncorect. The difference between AH film play back and what was displayed originally is so small (talking an inch or 2) that for all intensive purposes they are the same.
HiTech
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So how much time does "an inch or 2" equate to at say.... just 60 mph?
:noid :noid :noid
Bronk
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Originally posted by hitech
wrag: Your assessment is inncorect. The difference between AH film play back and what was displayed originally is so small (talking an inch or 2) that for all intensive purposes they are the same.
HiTech
Well dang it!!
Now are we taking into account vid drivers, stuff running in the background, etc....
Cause the reason I upgraded was due to some long talks/email discussions between myself and another HTC person. Tried everything recommended and still seemed to have that latency/lag issue.
I like to get in close sometimes. But was noticing a certain LAG. Planes did NOT SEEM to be where I saw them? I could watch my tracers SEEM to pass right through them but when I played back the film the tracers just barely missed.
Thinkin due to several things within my old system, SEEMED like at times I was 1/8 to 1/2 a second behind other AH sim'ers. Sure seemed like it anyways AND after I got a new MB, CPU, VID CARD, SOUND CARD, and proper drivers that SEEMED to stop!
And I ran virus, spyware, trojan, etc. sweeps constantly, still do.
Using FSautostart also.
"Just accept the fact that your not perfect and accidents happen."
Geez Bronk where you get the idea I think I'm perfect? Ya I know accidents happen. I say nothing when they do.
Haven't you gotten into any close fight lately? Possibly by accident or just to many jumpin ya?
Gotten so some don't even try to avoid a collision but repeatedly try to put their plane in the same space as yours rather then avoid. It's like they hope for a collision and that they will survive it.
Not talkin nose to nose here. Talkin your on a 6, just settled in after doin some acm to get there, and they jink and bob and at just the right moment they try to occupy the space your in. Not once, not twice but over and over. I can usually avoid and REMAIN on the 6, and shoot em down... but, i've lost one or 2 fights due to this. They pulled up, or down or left, or right, into me and I lost the fight due to the collision. It's like their aimming for you with the back, or side, or whatever part of their plane they think they can hit you with. Usually happens REAL FAST TOO.
Think thats why some in here are complainin. SEEMS there are some using the collision model against others.
I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong with the collision model. IMHO it works as intended and HT has done a good job.
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Originally posted by wrag
Well dang it!!
Now are we taking into account vid drivers, stuff running in the background, etc....
Cause the reason I upgraded was due to some long talks/email discussions between myself and another HTC person. Tried everything recommended and still seemed to have that latency/lag issue.
I like to get in close sometimes. But was noticing a certain LAG. Planes did NOT SEEM to be where I saw them? I could watch my tracers SEEM to pass right through them but when I played back the film the tracers just barely missed.
Thinkin due to several things within my old system, SEEMED like at times I was 1/8 to 1/2 a second behind other AH sim'ers. Sure seemed like it anyways AND after I got a new MB, CPU, VID CARD, SOUND CARD, and proper drivers that SEEMED to stop!
And I ran virus, spyware, trojan, etc. sweeps constantly, still do.
Using FSautostart also.
Sounds like an ISP issue then.
"Just accept the fact that your not perfect and accidents happen."
Geez Bronk where you get the idea I think I'm perfect? Ya I know accidents happen. I say nothing when they do.
Haven't you gotten into any close fight lately? Possibly by accident or just to many jumpin ya?
Already stated it happens to me.
Gotten so some don't even try to avoid a collision but repeatedly try to put their plane in the same space as yours rather then avoid. It's like they hope for a collision and that they will survive it.
Not talkin nose to nose here. Talkin your on a 6, just settled in after doin some acm to get there, and they jink and bob and at just the right moment they try to occupy the space your in. Not once, not twice but over and over. I can usually avoid and REMAIN on the 6, and shoot em down... but, i've lost one or 2 fights due to this. They pulled up, or down or left, or right, into me and I lost the fight due to the collision. It's like their aimming for you with the back, or side, or whatever part of their plane they think they can hit you with. Usually happens REAL FAST TOO.
Think thats why some in here are complainin. SEEMS there are some using the collision model against others.
I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong with the collision model. IMHO it works as intended and HT has done a good job.
Like I said what it looks like to you can look remarkably different on your enemy's. Now that we know the film viewer is for "all intensive purposes" accurate. Try rethinking this a bit.
Bronk
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Makes ya wonder what the point of the air-racing is...
Three guys could all show film proving they won and they'd all be right and wrong at the same time :D
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SEEMS there are some using the collision model against others.
Actually, I have seen someone who may have TRIED, and within the constraints of his methodology he was using if he was, was actually fairly good at it. But it was so obvious - and so easy to defeat once you saw it the first time - that it almost doesn't count if it was a deliberate attempt at causing you to collide. And it only worked because he carefully set things up so that he could predict your movement pretty precisely- and he may have simply been trying to get guns on rather than working for the collision to begin with.
And since he'd have to time it perfectly, I'll bet he died to it more often than not regardless of which he was working for.
If anyone out there is good enough to time it so that their aircraft consistently intersects same space as their enemy's on a machine which is an unknown latency away while consistently avoiding it on their own, they are good enough to hand me my butt without risking a collision in the first place.