Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Roscoroo on February 18, 2007, 06:12:20 PM
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Great finish ... Can ya say half a fender
Bummer Martin didnt get it
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What happened to no more racing back to the line on a wreck?
Yellow should have been thrown at the time of the wreck.
Cheap, yea maybe but NASCAR needs to enforce there rules equally.
Bronk
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no they got the race to the line ...
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So now they CAN race back to the line when there is a wreck?
Bronk
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First nasstudmuffin race I've watched to the finish... and it was actually entertaining. Will Ferrell could have been in the Jack Daniels car (#7?), skidding across the finish line, upside down and on fire! :cool:
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NASCAR's premier demolition derby is over.
yes the winner should have slid over the finish line upside down on fire, that would have been showmanship.
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they didnt toss the yellow til after the finish ... and even if they did it wouldnt of changed the results .
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On the last lap, with the wreck BEHIND the leaders, they do not throw the yellow until the leaders cross the line.
By the way, Harvick won the Daytona 500 on 2/18/2007. The date means something, especially to RCR people, but no one mentioned it.
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
they didnt toss the yellow til after the finish ... and even if they did it wouldnt of changed the results .
there is no passing under yellow, so martin would have won if they called yellow when the wrecks happened.
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Any other time there is a wreck yellow flag flown immediately.
Field is frozen and thats your restart position.
Why is the last lap any different . They will try more cheap watermelon then more than any other time.
Yellow should have been thrown at the time of the wreck, and field frozen.
As to who won at that time is moot.
My complaint is nascar enforces their rules when they feel like it.
Bronk
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keep thinking if dale sr. had been driving martins car would he have put harvik into the wall?
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You bet your arse he would.
Bronk
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I doubt it.
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Your not going to like this but.
Sr. got himself killed blocking to make sure HIS car won.
So I'd say he was more than likely to do his patented bump and go.
Especially if it meant the win.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Your not going to like this but.
Sr. got himself killed blocking to make sure HIS car won.
So I'd say he was more than likely to do his patented bump and go.
Especially if it meant the win.
Bronk
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Like it? I'd have to consider it intelligent and based in reality, not to mention from an informed source, before I'd consider liking it.
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C'mon savage you must have watched that race.
Sr blocked marlin, marlin tapped Sr. and Sr hit the wall.
You going to say he wasn't blocking?
Bronk
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Wouldn't have changed the race? Martin would had won had they thrown the flag as Kyle Busch went sideways and the field self destructed at the same time. Darrell Waltrip is a fool for saying it wouldn't have changed anything, and I'm an angry fan that Mark Martin didn't win.:cry
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Regardless of who was leading when the #5 car swapped ends, it was essential to switch on the yellow lights. Drivers would see the lights or hear it immediately from their spotters. They would have eased off the throttles and possibly reduced the damage and risks of racing to the line. This was an instance where NASCAR elected to put the show ahead of the safety of the competitors. As it was, they waited about 15 seconds and the number of wrecks, and potential risk of serious injury was enhanced (as in Bowyer sliding across the finish line upside-down and extremely vulnerable).
This was very poor judgement on the part of NASCAR.
For crying out loud, they threw a yellow last year for a piece of rollbar foam! Here we have the potential for serious injury (cars spinning and colliding everywhere) and they sit on the yellow until the crashing is generally over. This makes the whole effort at improving safety seem like a farce.
If NASCAR has a shred of credibilty, they will review the videotapes and freeze the field when the 5 lost it. Then, whoever was in the lead, wins...
Of course, we all know that they won't make any effort if it casts the slightest doubt on the race official's judgement.
NASCAR shot themselves in the foot today and many teams will be less than thrilled with their decision.
Oh, and by the way... I just reviewed the last lap again via ESPN. Had they thrown the yellow exactly when the 5 lost the back end, Harvick wins. If they wait just one second, until there's actual contact, Martin wins.. Either way, NASCAR blew it letting them race to the line.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ricky Bobby is the greatest thing to ever come out of Nascar.
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If NASCAR has a shred of credibilty, they will review the videotapes and freeze the field when the 5 lost it. Then, whoever was in the lead, wins...
Of course, we all know that they won't make any effort if it casts the slightest doubt on the race official's judgement.
NASCAR shot themselves in the foot today and many teams will be less than thrilled with their decision.
[/B]
Since the whole no racing back to the line thing came about NASCAR has been pretty consistent about when they throw the yellows. If you go back and watch some of the races for the last two years you'll notice that they always try to let the finish play out if the wreck happens coming out of the final turn. Whether you agree that it's safe or not, they've done it consistently since it's inception. They're quick to throw the flag in the middle of a race, but they always try and let it play out at the end.
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I had to work 2-10 today. Man, am I glad I didn't peek here before I watched the race on DVR! It was quite a finish, but once again NASCAR blew the call. Since Jarrett's wreck at Dover the rule has been no racing to the line. NASCAR has been quick on the trigger to throw cautions ever since, including the "last scoring loop" scenarios where they back up position to before the incident.
Having said that, Harvick had one heck of a run and beat Martin to the line. Mark could have tried to block him, but Mark Martin is as clean and nice as they come. Nice guys finish the Daytona 500 2nd.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Since the whole no racing back to the line thing came about NASCAR has been pretty consistent about when they throw the yellows. If you go back and watch some of the races for the last two years you'll notice that they always try to let the finish play out if the wreck happens coming out of the final turn. Whether you agree that it's safe or not, they've done it consistently since it's inception. They're quick to throw the flag in the middle of a race, but they always try and let it play out at the end.
Exactly. So what all the Martin fans out there is for him to win on a flag instead of on the track? There was less than a second between the time the wreck started and they crossed the line anyways. Even if they wanted to throw the yellow, it would have taken longer to make that decision. The better car/driver ,given the circumstances, won. Get over it.
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Bah. Show me the wrecks. and the last 5 laps and I've seen the most interesting things there are to see in a NASCAR race
Other then that.
Buncha rednecks driving around in circles? Zzzzzz,Zzzzzzz,Zzzzzz
Even Soccer is more entertaining
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Bah. Show me the wrecks. and the last 5 laps and I've seen the most interesting things there are to see in a NASCAR race
Other then that.
Buncha rednecks driving around in circles? Zzzzzz,Zzzzzzz,Zzzzzz
Even Soccer is more entertaining
Don't forget, stands full of people named "Bubba and Sissy"
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Originally posted by blkmgc
Exactly. So what all the Martin fans out there is for him to win on a flag instead of on the track? There was less than a second between the time the wreck started and they crossed the line anyways. Even if they wanted to throw the yellow, it would have taken longer to make that decision. The better car/driver ,given the circumstances, won. Get over it.
What ???????!!!!!!! Less than a second ??? What planet do you live on? You better look at the replay again.
NASCAR screwed up bad .
I know there have been other races ended under yellow for similar conditions.
But because of who's car was going for it on a particular anniversary date. We'll let it slide.
The sanctioning body needs an enema.
Bronk
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You're wrong bronk. The only reason this is even being talked about is because Martin is a lot of folk's sentimental favorite. It's happened before, it'll happen again. I'm happy to see NASCAR try to let the finish play out. Throwing a yellow at that point would'nt have done anything to stop the wreck from happening. Also, if you go back and look Harvice is in front when the wreck starts.
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I don't care who would have won. It's about NASCAR's inconsistent use of the rules.
Either
A. Race back to the line no matter what.
B. No racing back to the line for safety issues.
If there is a wreck you throw the flag period.
Or is driver safety less important than the win?
And to the clown who said it was a second later.... get a new watch.
Bronk
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whoa ... ... thats it everyone stop on the last turn and freeze !!!!! LOL
Come on guys .. watch the replays as you say ... Martin was behind when the wreck accured anyway ... they dont yellow just cause someone gets loose .
there would of been no stopping that gang anyway that close to the finish line .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
whoa ... ... thats it everyone stop on the last turn and freeze !!!!! LOL
Come on guys .. watch the replays as you say ... Martin was behind when the wreck accured anyway ... they dont yellow just cause someone gets loose .
there would of been no stopping that gang anyway that close to the finish line .
How is it different than any other time of the race.
Bronk
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Bronk, they've been consistent. In the middle of the race, caution flies immediately. Last lap, they look at the track to see if there's any way to let it run green to finish. Nothing new happened yesterday.
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
Come on guys .. watch the replays as you say ... Martin was behind when the wreck accured anyway ... they dont yellow just cause someone gets loose .
there would of been no stopping that gang anyway that close to the finish line .
Glad you noticed that too. Could have went either way if they threw the caution. Too bad for Martin but I am a Harvik fan so it was a good day.:aok
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Originally posted by mandingo
Ricky Bobby is the greatest thing to ever come out of Nascar.
Junior Johnson was.
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
they dont yellow just cause someone gets loose .
they went yellow for a piece of roll bar foam in one race, nascar uses the yellow to keep the field bunched up, example ,"debris on track".
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Originally posted by Bronk
Any other time there is a wreck yellow flag flown immediately.
Field is frozen and thats your restart position.
Why is the last lap any different . They will try more cheap watermelon then more than any other time.
Yellow should have been thrown at the time of the wreck, and field frozen.
As to who won at that time is moot.
My complaint is nascar enforces their rules when they feel like it.
Bronk
Why, leaders were ahead of the wreck coming down the stretch. what a great way to ruing a great finish.
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Originally posted by john9001
they went yellow for a piece of roll bar foam in one race, nascar uses the yellow to keep the field bunched up, example ,"debris on track".
i have friends that race in all sorts of series, derbies can do a lot of damage to the aerodynamics of a car.
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Originally posted by whiteman
Why, leaders were ahead of the wreck coming down the stretch. what a great way to ruing a great finish.
Yea to hell with the lives of the rest behind the wreck.
So long as you get a good finish.
pffft
NASCAR enforce your own safety tules.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Yea to hell with the lives of the rest behind the wreck.
So long as you get a good finish.
pffft
NASCAR enforce your own safety tules.
Bronk
That wreck wasn't going to be instantly stopped because of a yellow flag. You seriously think any of them were watching for the a yellow flag and preparing to stop 200 yards from the finish line.
The whole things was caused because drivers being over agressive trying to get to the finish. yellow flag have only meant an extra 3 laps with all those cars out of the race anyways.
Sounds like Martain fans crying for their guy to win.
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Originally posted by whiteman
That wreck wasn't going to be instantly stopped because of a yellow flag. You seriously think any of them were watching for the a yellow flag and preparing to stop 200 yards from the finish line.
Bit more than 600 ft. Try again.
Bronk
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sorry wrong distance, still what makes you think the yellow is going to make all those cars magiclly not hit each other. Does the yellow flag hold powers i'm not aware of?
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Then why not race back to the line all the time?
Not my rule, it's nascars's.
Bronk
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i believe its 1900 ft from turn 4 to the line . :rolleyes:
as for the instant hold place on the yellow .. they are going to have to bring back the "race to the line" ... but for safety's sake they should half or 1/4er the track with something like Yellow line points ... especially on the huge super speedways .
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They already have that with the scoring loops. I don't know the exact distance, but there are several at equal distances around the track. They put them in after the "no racing back" rule was implemented.
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As soon as yellow is thrown spotters tell em and they lift.
That in it self provides just a bit more safety.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Then why not race back to the line all the time?
Not my rule, it's nascars's.
Bronk
With the leaders out front on the last lap that close to the finish let it go. During the race yes, but the last lap on the front stretch. If their on the back stretch thats one thing, but your talking about cleaning up the track lineing whats left back up and telling them they have three more laps.
I'm going to guess most those guys up front were running near empty and tires were going to be an issue. and how many of those guys with busted cars are gunna chance it so not to lose positions.
That flag wasn't going to stop that accident or reduce the size only affect the outcome depending on who passed the last scoring marker. Martin wasn't guarnteed the win if it came out, they seesawed the lead in turn four. Who ever passed the marker first is determined in the lead not your position when the flag comes out.
It was a matter of seconds from when the wreck started till they crossed then the flag came out. would only have affected the race not the wreck.
Either way NASCAR called it they were screwed because the other half would be complaing saying "let them race, it's the last lap" & "great job on ruining a great finish".
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Originally posted by whiteman
Either way NASCAR called it they were screwed because the other half would be complaing saying "let them race, it's the last lap" & "great job on ruining a great finish".
True. BUT, most of the complaints I have seen here and on the other boards has been NASCAR not being consistant in their calling a caution.
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Originally posted by whiteman
That flag wasn't going to stop that accident or reduce the size only affect the outcome depending on who passed the last scoring marker.
The flag doesn't stop accidents. What it does do is help prevent it from becoming much worst.
I already said who would have won is a moot point.
It's about consistency which you don't want to address.
Try playing a game with me enforcing the rules inconsistently.
Bet you'd get POed fairly quick.
Bronk
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Sometimes the right thing to do isn't in the book or rules, they did the right thing. Competitive racing like this is a different sport. Bending a rule in football, basbeball or basketball won't fly. But this is improved the outcome which they, NASCAR who runs the sport, felt it was for the better of the event. I agree with them.
Can't compare this to football, checkers or shoots and ladders. It was a split second judgement call. I hope they have a rule implace soon that will clearly state and allow the leaders to race to the line on the last lap.
Again that flag wasn't going to change the moment and size of the wreck. it comes out after the fact.
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Originally posted by whiteman
Sometimes the right thing to do isn't in the book or rules, they did the right thing. Competitive racing like this is a different sport. Bending a rule in football, basbeball or basketball won't fly. But this is improved the outcome which they, NASCAR who runs the sport, felt it was for the better of the event. I agree with them.
So what rules are ok to bend/break and who determines this. Where can i find out witch ones are ok. I'm sure team waltrip would like a look at what ones he can bend/break .
Can't compare this to football, checkers or shoots and ladders. It was a split second judgement call. I hope they have a rule implace soon that will clearly state and allow the leaders to race to the line on the last lap.
Rules are there for a reason. No need for a split second decision. See a wreck throw the flag.
Again that flag wasn't going to change the moment and size of the wreck. it comes out after the fact.
Flags don't stop wrecks but as to the size and stopping others that happen racing to the stripe.
Tell that to the driver who's wreck caused the " no race to the stripe" rule.
Bronk
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Either way Yellow flag or no yellow flag Martin got robbed, Jr got in a wreck and the race was still good.
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<---Wanted Martin to win since Jr. was wrecked already , and even then didn't have the car to win....with that said....
Rules are rules. You had 6 rules infractions this past week and crews and ownners lost points , people , and money. They were ENFORCED so to speak.
As soon as Boris Said started to spin , caution flew , field frozen. As soo as Kyle pettys tire shredded caution flies field frozen.
As soon as Elephant Eared Kirk Busch pulls the bonehead move of the race and took my 2nd driver out of the race , caution flew field frozen.
On and on and on. Johnson , caused one.
The rule is field frozen when the caution flies. They throw it all the time when something happens right WHEN it happens....not later and let cars keep crashin.
I don't know for sure that Martin would have won...but NASCAR lost in my mind. IF you have a rule , and your gonna all of the sudden enforce em all , then like Bronk said...they should be consistant.
They were'nt....Harvick could have won under caution just as easy.
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What if worst case scenario..
Martin raced him harder ,slid up put him in the wall and harvick was injured/killed.
Harvick fans would have wanted martin's head. The real blame would be on NASCAR for not enforcing their own damn rule.
But I bet you don't want to debate this point either.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
As soon as yellow is thrown spotters tell em and they lift.
That in it self provides just a bit more safety.
Bronk
Good grief, are you that thick? Do you think the cars behind the wreck werent lifting for the wreck irreguardless of the yellow flag? Here I'll make it big so you dont ignore it again..
Last lap, wreck in turn 4>behind the leaders<, leaders coming to the line.NASCAR has never thrown a yellow flag under these circumstances.
get it now? Both Martin and Harvick knew this.Martin fans are just pissed because he got beat.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Flags don't stop wrecks but as to the size and stopping other that happen racing to the stripe.
Tell that to the driver who's wreck caused the " no race to the stripe" rule.
Bronk
That was a different incident, look at last nights it was in a pack of cars and all involved parties went going to avoid it by the aid of an yellow. Every wreck is different you can't blanket ever wreck as to following a set path. Those guys involved in the wreck were racing to the finish the guy who caused the rule was most likely in a wreck after a seperate wreck or from being smashed by cars 15 secs behind him as his car remained out of control or stoped.
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Like I said look at the worst case scenario.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
What if worst case scenario..
Martin raced him harder ,slid up put him in the wall and harvick was injured/killed.
Harvick fans would have wanted martin's head. The real blame would be on NASCAR for not enforcing their own damn rule.
But I bet you don't want to debate this point either.
Bronk
He could have done that like many other guys have under green, how times has Stweart or any other guy out there put someone into the wall before trying to win, much less done it in the middle of a race for one position.
only way to stop that is to throw flags for guys racing close to each other. Should they put in a 1 car length rule and stop lights out there?
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Originally posted by whiteman
He could have done that like many other guys have under green, how times has Stweart or any other guy out there put someone into the wall before trying to win, much less done it in the middle of a race for one position.
only way to stop that is to throw flags for guys racing close to each other. Should they put in a 1 car length rule and stop lights out there?
One would have been nascar's negligence the the other accidental.
I'm glad you like bending the rules, especially when you get the W for it.
Says a lot about character.
I'm sure MW would like to get away with bending a few.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
One would have been nascar's negligence the the other accidental.
I'm glad you like bending the rules, especially when you get the W for it.
Says a lot about character.
I'm sure MW would like to get away with bending a few.
Bronk
Were talking about a sport and you bring in personal character because the sanctioning body made a call i agree with. LOL, OK.
I have no rooting intrest in either, no money on it just a fan of the sport. Outcome didn't have any effect on my life. I pull for all the Chevy guys and root for the Fords to break down, but it's not the end of the world or even a sec of fustration if a chevy guy doesn't win. Watch and participate in enough sports and you'll know bad calls go for and aginst you all the time, S#!t happens.
As for Waltrip cheating, oh well he got caught. Every team in NASCAR is pushing their car to the edge, some push it over some out right cheat. Saying is "If you not cheating your not trying" and it's only cheating till you get caught. It's part of the sport and doesn't bother me unless it's something stupid as a fuel additive, atleast be creative.
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According to the poll on NASCAR.com they should have thrown the flag.
Yes - 54%
No - 46%
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Originally posted by whiteman
I. I pull for all the Chevy guys and root for the Fords to break down,
you do know those are not real chevy's and ford's.
nascar drivers don't lift even if there is a yellow, if you lift you get hit from behind then you ARE the wreck, they just keep the gas on and hope there is no car in front of them when they go through the smoke.
the fans love it, the sponsors love the fans, the sponsors pay the big money.
nascar has a agreement with the sponsors to give each race car (rolling billboard) a minimum amount of air time during the race.
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NASCAR has consistently held off throwing the yellow on the last lap. That's the way it should be.
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Originally posted by john9001
you do know those are not real chevy's and ford's.
you think?????????? so are you saying the same applies to NHRA!!!!!!!
:eek:
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Originally posted by rpm
According to the poll on NASCAR.com they should have thrown the flag.
Yes - 54%
No - 46%
NASCAR.com? LOL , your joking right?
Heres what one of thier own staff writers has to say about it
from Duane Cross:
In the end, caution was thrown to the wind and Kevin Harvick out-muscled Mark Martin to the stripe to win the Great American Race.
NASCAR -- on its biggest stage -- swallowed the flag and did two things:
• Further solidified its standing with those fans who believe the sport plays to its favorites (or more to the point gigs the drivers it doesn't like, as some perceive).
• Made a mark in the sand that caution -- especially under the green, white, checkers scenario -- will not be a factor if the unfolding melee has nothing to do with the race leaders.
Has this guy been living under a rock, or possibly mowing the lawn for the last...oh...hundreds of races? Does he write his articles after reading the intardnet?
NASCAR does not throw a yellow on the last lap when the leaders are coming to the line, and the wrecks behind them.
Hasnt happened in as far back as I remember. If someone has an example, please post it. Irreguardless, the wreck (even if it didnt happen) had absolutely nothing to do with the finish. Martin didnt get it done...again...period. All the sentimentals out there need to accept that fact and move on. I'm not really a fan of either, but logic has to dictate sometimes.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Since the whole no racing back to the line thing came about NASCAR has been pretty consistent about when they throw the yellows. If you go back and watch some of the races for the last two years you'll notice that they always try to let the finish play out if the wreck happens coming out of the final turn. Whether you agree that it's safe or not, they've done it consistently since it's inception. They're quick to throw the flag in the middle of a race, but they always try and let it play out at the end.
How can you say that when 6 races finished under caution last year when a wreck occured on the final lap of a green-white-checker finish? Clearly, NASCAR did not allow racing to the line in those races.
The only thing consistent about NASCAR is the fact that they will be inconsistent in rules application.
How's this for consistency? Gordon starts 42nd because of a mechanical problem that caused his car to be too low in post-race inspection. Yet, four teams caught cheating (especially Waltrip) started where they qualified? Don't you think that that blatant cheating should mandate a trip to the back of the pack (maybe disqualified altogether)? It should be a gimmie....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
How can you say that when 6 races finished under caution last year when a wreck occured on the final lap of a green-white-checker finish? Clearly, NASCAR did not allow racing to the line in those races.
Please post the races, and where the leaders were when the caution came out.
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Originally posted by Widewing
How's this for consistency? Gordon starts 42nd because of a mechanical problem that caused his car to be too low in post-race inspection. Yet, four teams caught cheating (especially Waltrip) started where they qualified? Don't you think that that blatant cheating should mandate a trip to the back of the pack (maybe disqualified altogether)? It should be a gimmie....
I'll agree with that part. But Gordon should have gotten the monitary and points fines as well.
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Originally posted by whiteman
Sometimes the right thing to do isn't in the book or rules, they did the right thing.
If Bowyer's car had been t-boned while upside down and he was seriously injured, would you still call not throwing a yellow the right thing to do?
Personally, I think red flagging a race and then running the green-white-checker sprint is wildly dangerous anyway. No other major sanctioning body (FIA, SCCA, CART, IRL or USAC) does this.
But, let's face facts. NASCAR is all about the money, and the show is paramount to earning large audience share, and thus maximizing dollar income. Driver safety has always been secondary.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing,
Isn't all professional racing about the money? Are there really any non sponsored professional racers out there running their own vehicle out of their own household garage? How about F1?
I'm not trying to jump down your throat, nut I just think lamenting money issues in professional racing to be a bit over the top. It's all about the money at that level.
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Originally posted by blkmgc
Please post the races, and where the leaders were when the caution came out.
Daytona in July, the Brickyard 400 and the August race at Talladega all ended under caution due to a last lap wreck. All wrecks were behind the leaders.
Rusty Wallace stated that there were 6 races that ended under caution, I can find 3, possibly 4, but several of NASCAR's result pages are down. Thus, I cannot confirm more than three.
However, when reviewing last year's results, I was amazed at how many green-white-checker finishes NASCAR engineered and at how many minor wrecks did not generate a caution in a late laps (less than 5 laps). I was also surprised at the number of mysterious "debris" cautions....
Are you guys sure that Brian France isn't an alias for Vince McMann?
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Maverick
Widewing,
Isn't all professional racing about the money? Are there really any non sponsored professional racers out there running their own vehicle out of their own household garage? How about F1?
I'm not trying to jump down your throat, nut I just think lamenting money issues in professional racing to be a bit over the top. It's all about the money at that level.
How about Formula 1? If the drivers believe that circumstances create an unsafe environment, what happens? Remember the 2005 USGP? Every Michelin shod team sat out the race.
As far as many drivers are concerned, living to enjoy your money supercedes the money itself. Most professional drivers, in the absence of high purses, would race anyway. That's what they do... Race. They live for it. Money only makes it that much sweeter.
Look at club level racing. It's almost all amateurs racing for fun, and most pay their own way. If professional racing went away tomorrow, virtually all of the pros would continue to race, because they love it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by blkmgc
NASCAR.com? LOL , your joking right?
Heres what one of thier own staff writers has to say about it
from Duane Cross:
Has this guy been living under a rock, or possibly mowing the lawn for the last...oh...hundreds of races? Does he write his articles after reading the intardnet?
NASCAR does not throw a yellow on the last lap when the leaders are coming to the line, and the wrecks behind them.
Hasnt happened in as far back as I remember. If someone has an example, please post it. Irreguardless, the wreck (even if it didnt happen) had absolutely nothing to do with the finish. Martin didnt get it done...again...period. All the sentimentals out there need to accept that fact and move on. I'm not really a fan of either, but logic has to dictate sometimes.
Lighten up Francis. Go back and look at my original post. I said Harvick beat him to the line. I also just reported what the poll said. You can bold text everything you want, it won't make NASCAR consistant.
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Originally posted by Widewing
If Bowyer's car had been t-boned while upside down and he was seriously injured, would you still call not throwing a yellow the right thing to do?
Personally, I think red flagging a race and then running the green-white-checker sprint is wildly dangerous anyway. No other major sanctioning body (FIA, SCCA, CART, IRL or USAC) does this.
But, let's face facts. NASCAR is all about the money, and the show is paramount to earning large audience share, and thus maximizing dollar income. Driver safety has always been secondary.
My regards,
Widewing
Go back and look at the tape or a replay, they threw the yellow soon as Harvick and Martin crossed. Bowyer was still sliding at that time and hadn't even come to a stop. It's a dangerous sport and they all know what their getting into.
The flag was thrown, it was a delayed flag to let the leaders race.
And find me a series were the teams and body's aren't about the money. Teams and series don't live with out it. Thats how a lot of those guys make a living.
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Originally posted by Widewing
How about Formula 1? If the drivers believe that circumstances create an unsafe environment, what happens? Remember the 2005 USGP? Every Michelin shod team sat out the race.
As far as many drivers are concerned, living to enjoy your money supercedes the money itself. Most professional drivers, in the absence of high purses, would race anyway. That's what they do... Race. They live for it. Money only makes it that much sweeter.
Look at club level racing. It's almost all amateurs racing for fun, and most pay their own way. If professional racing went away tomorrow, virtually all of the pros would continue to race, because they love it.
My regards,
Widewing
No joke they'ed go down to the local track or drag strip, anyone can. But since that won't happen and club level and pro racing aren't any where in the same neighborhood it isn't even worth mentioning.
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Originally posted by whiteman
Go back and look at the tape or a replay, they threw the yellow soon as Harvick and Martin crossed. Bowyer was still sliding at that time and hadn't even come to a stop. It's a dangerous sport and they all know what their getting into.
The flag was thrown, it was a delayed flag to let the leaders race.
And find me a series were the teams and body's aren't about the money. Teams and series don't live with out it. Thats how a lot of those guys make a living.
You have managed repeatedly to completely miss the point....
What purpose does a yellow flag serve? It's called a CAUTION flag for a reason. Waiting to display the yellow flag disregards the safety of the drivers. I spent several seasons working as a volunteer corner worker at SCCA and EMRA events. I worked several pro road racing events as well. Yellow flags serve one purpose, to minimize the risk to the drivers by alerting them that there is a problem ahead of them. We had the ability to throw a local yellow, one that governs on the area between flag stations. If the event is serious enough that it requires a tow truck, or the track is blocked, we would ask the steward to display a full-course yellow. That means a waving yellow at all flag stations and at the start-finish line.
The number one goal is to protect the drivers.
NASCAR really isn't interested in protecting the drivers; at least their behavior was diametrically out of phase to their talk on Sunday.
In 2005, at Talladega, on the final lap, with Dale Jarret leading and Stewart gaining fast coming out of the last corner, there was a wreck mid pack. NASCAR threw a yellow, freezing the field. Stewart passed Jarret a second later and beat him to the line. However, since the field was frozen at the time of the yellow, Jarret was awarded the win. When asked why they didn't let them race to the finish, since the wreck was well behind the leaders, NASCAR replied: "It was too dangerous for the other drivers to allow racing to the line with cars spinning down the racetrack."
Fast-forward to February of 2007, and NASCAR does the exact opposite.
This is the type of inconsistency that crushes NASCAR's already shakey credibility.
NASCAR is talking out of both sides of their collective mouths since Sunday. Moreover, with the TV audience having significantly dropped from last year's race, maybe they should consider that manipulating race results is bad policy.
The Press is justifiably leaning all over NASCAR. A writer for the Associated Press wrote the following today:
"It’s why Johnny Benson wasn’t flagged for driving below the yellow line in Friday night’s Truck Series race, even though NASCAR has made that part of the track a strict no-no. But NASCAR deemed Benson’s move legal.
It’s why in a week that saw six people thrown out of the garage for cheating, Jeff Gordon received only a slap on the wrist when his car failed an inspection.
It’s why Elliott Sadler and Scott Riggs were penalized for infractions that car owner Ray Evernham insisted are not even addressed in the rule book.
And it’s why Michael Waltrip wasn’t kicked out of the Daytona 500 after NASCAR found a fuel additive in his new Toyota Camry. The transgression was so blatant Pemberton said he was personally insulted. NASCAR cracked down on Waltrip with stiff penalties, but his presence in the race infuriated rival drivers.
The one constant of Speedweeks? Every incident proved it’s past time for NASCAR to have a very clear rule book. Otherwise, everything will always be arbitrary — even fantastic finishes like Sundays."
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by whiteman
No joke they'ed go down to the local track or drag strip, anyone can. But since that won't happen and club level and pro racing aren't any where in the same neighborhood it isn't even worth mentioning.
Ever do any club racing? I have. I campaigned an Alfa Romeo in EMRA and SCCA road racing in the early 1970s. Later, I dabbled with Formula B (a March 722 chassis) working to get my National ticket.
Some of the best, most intense racing can be found at the club level. Some of the most boring and uninteresting racing can be found at the top pro level (Formula 1 being the poster child for huge budget, yet boring competition).
Ever hear of Jerry Hansen? This guy has won 27 national titles. Mario Andretti called Hansen "the most talented road racer ever produced by America." Andretti knows, because he lost to Hansen several times. Hansen is one of those club racers "not worth mentioning".
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing
:aok
thats exactly what i wanted to say.
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Let's get real. Pemberton "personally insulted"? Give me a freaking break, the Pembertons have been cheating since they came to NASCAR. What a crock of crap. And the sanctimonious B.S. from Richard Petty ranks right up with Pemberton's holier than thou line of tripe. Petty should talk about fuel, after getting caught with a sneaky pete nitrous setup in his door at Daytona. Nevermind getting caught 50 CUBIC INCHES over the limit and KEEPING THE WIN at Daytona.
If that crying whiner Pemberton's feelings are hurt, the candy assed sissy needs a new job. He's been a cheating crybaby his whole career.
Gordon had a PART FAILURE. I don't even like Gordon, and I'm not the only one saying it. He lost anything he gained for the 500 by winning that race when they put him in the back. He didn't gain points for winning, and he was already in the damned race.
Evernham has a point. The bolts they got busted for were used last year, so the penalty for that infraction was not justified. However, the aero tricks they tried were something they should have gotten busted for. Same thing with crybaby Jack Roush and his bunch, they did it, they knew it, they got busted. He ought to shut his whining pie hole and pay up like the rest. Jack Roush is one of the kings of cheating in all of motorsports. He sucks the life right out of any area of the sport he gets involved in.
Waltrip only got off a little light, because he got a slightly smaller point penalty than Kranefuss got a few years ago for the same thing, only probably worse. It's a MUCH bigger penalty now, because of the "top 35 in points guarantee". As it stands now, he's still -27 points, or something over 220 points behind Harvick. He's somewhere around 57th in points now, so he could run well almost all year and still be at risk of missing a race because he's not in the top 35 in points. So this penalty will put them in a HUGE hole ALL YEAR.
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Widewing
Thank you for your eloquence.
Bronk