Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Yeager on February 18, 2007, 10:47:22 PM
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I asked a local computer store to build me a new box to play Vanguard with. AH and IL2 are also to be supported by this new system
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System: Professional Intel Intel Core 2 Duo DUO POWER PC
DUO Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4Ghz E6600 Conroe 1066MHz FSB LGA 775 Processor
Motherboard: ASUS P5PE-VM
Memory: PC-3200 512MB DDR
Hard Drive: WD 1200GB SATA Hard Drive
Video: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 (Integrated)
Samsung DVD+,-RW Dual Layer Burner
FDD: 1.44MB 3.5" Black
Sound: Realtek ALC 882, 8-ch High-Definition Audio(Integrated)
Microsoft Window XP Home
Warranty: 6 months
Price: $749
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The integrated Video and sound have me a bit perplexed. Is this a smart way for me to go as opposed to the typical plug and play vid and sound devices?
Thanks in advance
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It has an amazing CPU and I think you meant 120GB hard drive.
Other than that, it's pretty lame if you want an outright gaming PC. AH will run okay if you at least double (recommend triple or quadruple) the RAM and get an AGP or preferably PCI-E (if supported) video card.
Onboard systems like the video card and sound card will use parts of the system RAM and CPU to do their work. An expansion card is a standalone object for the most part, as it has it's own onboard RAM and processing unit.
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I would bump that to at least 1 GB of RAM, and get a real video card. Nothing good ever came from integrated video.
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That motherboard has an AGP slot,(no PCIe:( ) id get something like a nvidia 7300 or better card. Also, go with atleast 1gig ram, 2 would be best. MOBO only supports 2gig. Finally, you could save yourself some money by building it yourself, which would allow you to get more ram and better MOBO.
NOT
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I would pass on that system , between the onboard video , no pcie slot and only supporting DDR1 pc3200 instead of DDR2 that the Core 2's are supposed to use , it looks like a poor selection of hardware . I would spend my money elsewhere.
I would never put a 315 dollar cpu on a 54 dollar motherboard 8)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131029
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I would never put a 315 dollar cpu on a 54 dollar motherboard 8)
VERY WELL SAID
If I were you I would be thinking on another builder if that's what they rememended to you . That's a POS IMO for gaming as it stands .
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A couple of things turn me away from this.
1) The 512MB of RAM. Consider 1GB the minimum today. And if you have nay aspirations of running Vista, then make it 2GB of RAM.
2) The onboard video chip is a waste of $2. You can get a fine set of shoelaces for what that video chip is worth.
If there is no PCI-E 16x slot, then you just got yourself a dead-end piece of hardware with very limited options and fewer options as time goes by.
Sort of like stuffing a Pinto engine (video) into a Ferrari body (CPU). It wants go fast, but it is being held back by the video chip.
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sounds perfect for ya Yeager :)
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Thanks all and Skuzzy. I am disappointed this guy offered me this system. Especially after telling him I needed a good gaming system (ie graphics and sound) I wont be going there for any reason.
Im working on another build. Will post here for advice then.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Thanks all and Skuzzy. I am disappointed this guy offered me this system. Especially after telling him I needed a good gaming system (ie graphics and sound) I wont be going there for any reason.
Im working on another build. Will post here for advice then.
As a "computer guy" I can say with confidence that 90% of those masquerading as 'computer people/geeks/etc' are clueless. Usually they can follow directions to assemble a computer, know a few catchy phrases, and (maybe) can do a DOS directory listing...and that's about it. Building a computer has been dumbed down to the point where literally anyone can do it....and sadly once one of those lemmings does it...they pronounce themselves uber.
Skuzzy's advice is right on, onboard graphics are not acceptable for any sort of gaming. IMO the single most important factor in a new build is it's upgrade path. So look for something you can afford, but will grow as your software needs grow.
If money is the issue, I'd drop down to the E6400 and spend that extra $$ on more memory.. The E6600 is right at the point where you pay significantly more for marginal performance increase. You'll notice more memory more than you will notice ~300MHz. Anymore, games are generally GPU bound before they are CPU bound....and with the Core Duo 2...you've got a LOT of muscle even in the 'lower end' parts.
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If you tell someone you want a good game system and they quote you anything less than a $200 video card to start with, then run, don't walk, away from them.
If you tell them you want a good game system and they offer a system with less than 1GB of RAM, then just back away from them too.
If someone is quoting a 'game' system with less than 1GB of RAM, and a cheap video card, then thier idea of gaming is Solitare.
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Then Skuzzy... what would be the ideal gaming system for a do it yourself person who wants to put one together , and keep the money less than 1K preferably cheaper?
MB, CPU, Vid, Sound, Memory, Power Supply. given you have a tower and monitor.
Versus going to the local Wal-Mart and buying one.
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A "good gaming system" can't be had for $1000 or less, to me. It includes a $300 vid card, a $100 sound card, a $150-$200 mobo, a $350 CPU, a $100 PSU, and a $200 HD.
Lessee, that comes to about bare minimum 1200 or so, not counting other things.
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What is all this talk about ONE video card?
And no RAID? Waitaminuute! A single hard drive?
XP "Home"?
Inter (twitch)-grat (twitch) -ed vide(twitch) o?
Also, I did not see case, cooling system, or power supply listed.
Agree with most above:
1GB minimum RAM, 2 GB better.
Not-no-way that motherboard.
VRAM important for eye candy... each of my cards has 512MB, and system is 2 years old.
With the right CPU and Motherboard, dual hard drives running RAID-0 can really work well for game system. My 2 - 74 GB SATA's at 10,000 rpm do well, and I've external hard drives on network for bulk storage, music, and video.
The more you are trying to save on what is supposed to be a game system, the more research you will need to do to get the right components for the right price. Computer Shopper, PC Gamer, and CPU magazines run articles on the subject occasionally, and recent ones should be search-able on some online database. Then there are places like http://www.newegg.com
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XP "Home"?
I would like to know why everyone always says go with pro for a game box . If you arent going to need multi processor support (not cores but cpu sockets) or the need to network more than 5 pc together in your home, i would spending the extra money on better hardware .
Ive never seen a benchmark comparing the two but i would imagine a service tweaked version of home would be virtually the same as pro in FPS. This is just my opinion , i'd actually like to see facts to prove me wrong and see an increase in game performance , i would buy a copy. 38
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Originally posted by Krusty
A "good gaming system" can't be had for $1000 or less, to me. It includes a $300 vid card, a $100 sound card, a $150-$200 mobo, a $350 CPU, a $100 PSU, and a $200 HD.
Lessee, that comes to about bare minimum 1200 or so, not counting other things.
Think 1000$ is doable with E6300, 2GB RAM, 7600GT video, x-fi musik soundcard, enermax powersupply, xp-pro , WD 160GB HD and CoolerMaster Centurion case.
Edit:
Ok i misjudged US prices there and come up with $1092 + shipping from newegg, might be other places where you can get stuff cheaper.
List from newegg stuff:
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LITE-ON 20X DVD±R Burner with 12X DVD-RAM write and LightScribe Technology Black IDE Model LH-20A1H-186 - Retail
Item #: N82E16827106045
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$38.99
COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UB Black /Blue Aluminum Bezel , SECC Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Item #: N82E16811119047
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$49.99
Western Digital Caviar SE WD1600JS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Item #: N82E16822144415
Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy
$52.99
ENERMAX Liberty ELT400AWT ATX12V 400W Power Supply - Retail
Item #: N82E16817194002
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$79.99
Logitech 967973-0403 Black PS/2 Standard Deluxe 250 Desktop Mouse Included - OEM
Item #: N82E16823126017
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$13.85
A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ADQVE1A16K - Retail
Item #: N82E16820211066
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$169.99
Open Box: ASUS P5B-E LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard - OEM
Item #: N82E16813131070R
Return Policy: Open Box Item Return Policy
$105.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6300 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819115005
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy
$184.00
GIGABYTE GV-NX79G256DP-RH GeForce 7900GS 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814125045
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$189.99
Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2b 1pk w/Upgrade Coupon for Vista - OEM
Item #: N82E16832116175
Return Policy: Software Return Policy
$139.99
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16829102007
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$65.99
Total: $1,091.76
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You can easily beat the $1000 mark.......
The big difference between home & pro is specific to netwrking and file sharing across a network. Nothing i'm aware of that would effect a single user.
I just bought...
6600 combo $330
maxtor 250G sata drive $70
2G OZC DDR2 (667m){5-5-5} $140
Windows XP Media Edition {basically xp pro} $109
Looking for the rest....
DVD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E) $40
PS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E)
$30
This is a good deal on a reasonable PS (again looking for decent product at great price)
Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E) $40
VC (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E) $80
So basically $850
for a E6600 with 2GM and a X1650P
you even get a free "upgrade certificate to vista (not that I'd use it:))
Tweaking a bit you can....
Case/PS combo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811212033) $50
E6300 combo (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Shopping/Shoppingcart.asp?submit=ChangeItem) $260
I looked for a decent AMD combo but nothing seemed decent that wasnt within $20-30 of the core duo combo's...
Again nothing here is uber....but all is reasonable quality and will work well.
So for ~$750 {if I added right} you can build out a good "gaming" rig....nothing you want to tweak...but also nothing with a bad bottleneck.
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I looked for a decent AMD combo but nothing seemed decent that wasnt within $20-30 of the core duo combo's...
I agree with that , i wouldnt bother building an AMD gaming system right now if i was building , it just doesnt compare to the price/performance of the conroe. If you already have some AMD platform hardware to use i could see , but not new build gamer.
I'm not anti-AMD, hell my last intel was a 466 celery lol. They just got caught with their pants down . Fwiw . 38
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I love AMD...but you can get a E4300 COMBO at fry's today (AGP)....
Just no way to even recommend an AMD chip. My understanding is that the 4300 OC's very well and is way above any 939 socket chip "out of the box" {feel free to correct me here if I'm wrong}....
So you can get the entry level core duo for less then "retail" with a MB....just amazing. Great option if your stuck with an AGP card...I'm considering grabbing one to upgrade my sons box....since he can still use the X800pro he has....
In fact I'd recommend anybody with a 754 board to strongly consider this if you have a good VC....you could get 2-3 years from the rebuild and then swap the chip to next yrs "OC special" board when it hits the discount rack....by then the new 8800's should be $99 or so as well...
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Is this a suck system?
AMD64 3800+X2 Proc
1gig DDR2 5800 Ram
EVGA 7300GT 256 DDR2 PCI
250gig HD
XPPro
?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Is this a suck system?
AMD64 3800+X2 Proc
1gig DDR2 5800 Ram
EVGA 7300GT 256 DDR2 PCI
250gig HD
XPPro
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You would prolly want to bump the video card to a 7600GT , the 7300 would most likely dissapoint you . I would have to say that the ati 1950 XT/pro or the nvidia 7600GT is the best bang for the buck card out right now .
The system isnt really that bad , it depends on how much it is going to cost you . If you don't mind giving us a price range you would like to stay within, i'm sure we can help you out .
Here is a decent interactive chart that will help when buying a video card , just select the card you like from the pull down list and compare it to others in all the different games and a benchmark.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html
Looking at that chart , the 7300gt appears to be quite a bit slower than a 6600GT that is two video card generations older than the newer 7300 series . Good luck , and if you want to drop me a line @
rukkee@toast.net , i'd be glad to give you a hand . 8)
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Originally posted by 38ruk
You would prolly want to bump the video card to a 7600GT , the 7300 would most likely dissapoint you . I would have to say that the ati 1950 XT/pro or the nvidia 7600GT is the best bang for the buck card out right now .
I concur. From the rebates I've been seeing the x1950 Pro seems to be the absolute best bang for the buck. Almost even the ti4200 of the the current generation....until the 8000 series goes mainstream.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Is this a suck system?
AMD64 3800+X2 Proc
1gig DDR2 5800 Ram
EVGA 7300GT 256 DDR2 PCI
250gig HD
XPPro
?
The problem I see here is that they are throwing in parts that give greater markup. what they need to do is build out a system that does what you need and tack on a build fee. Is that a good budget gamer.....yes. The 7300Gt is a very good card....for under $100....you left out the price...I'd say that a bout a $600 system {out the door with build fee included}
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The guy is offering me this:
AMD64 Dual-Core 3800 x2 (Dual Core)–AM2 loaded on a
MSI/Gigabyte/Asus motherboard, DDR2 (Sound/LAN/Modem included)...sound aint that big a deal to me, I use headphones 90% of the time, just needs to be decent.
1gb High Density RAM DDR2 800MHz
EVGA 7300GT 256 DDR2 PCI
Western Digital 250gb SATA2 HDD (7200rpm)16mb
Pioneer DVD R/W 16x
All loaded into a Hampton Cool Case
XPPro+one year Norton anti-V
all for $750+tax (a blond pube over $800 with state tax)
Im not really into studying this stuff anymore. I have a basic grasp of things and for the price this would seem to be a decent system for a "casual" gamer like myself. I dont live and breath this stuff (anymore) I just want a decent running PC that is upgradable for the next two or three years. If I buy this it will only be my fourth all new system since 95.
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Price seems high to me , atleast make him throw in a 7600GT for the same $ . I can understand the guy needs to make a living but i would try to get something more out of him . Good luck
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thanks and I hear you, but I doubt the guy makes anywhere near what I do annually and afterall, I am asking him to spare me the hassle of building the damned thing up.....(I dont enjoy doing that anymore)
But whats more important to me is how well the machine will play basic games like AH, CoD2, Vanguard......stuff like that, for a fair price (anything decent under 1k) and still be upgradeable next year.
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as someone else mentioned the 6600GT is a better card and is similiar in price. The 7600 GT is only $20-30 more then either. I agree the price is a bit high but in the end its up to you....
I went to PC Club (http://www.pcclub.com/systems_configurator.cfm?type=Desktop&bomid=ENSP09) and was able to configure the bare bones system with a core duo e6300, XP Home, 1G Ram and 7600GT for $819. with tax and fedex ground it was $897 to the door.
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7600GT eh....maybe I should see if he would roll that in for the same price.
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Yeager,
With the exception of the 7300 vid card, that system will run AH and general use stuff just fine. If you get crazy you might get some potentially huge gains from overclocking, but even bone stock you'll get both good bang/buck and actual performance out of that system. It won't approach the raw cpu speed that even the cheapest core 2 duo systems could get you, but you won't notice unless you're into benchmarking, e-noodle comparisons, or you toss an 8800 vid card in there.
2 nice things - you can run that system for a year or two and then probably double the cpu speed with the last of the AM2 cpus when AMD transitions to their next generation, and with a faster cpu a year or two down the road, it'll still be a nice match to the 8800 or next gen vid cards. Again it'll never beat the top-end systems but for price/performance, it's really hard to beat a nice AM2 based system right now. You can get a whole system with "good enough" performance for essentially the cost of a core 2 duo mobo, cpu, and memory alone.
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Hmmmm....
With the cost of core duo combos in the $160 range (on a board that supports both DDR & AGP I dont see how you can say that. No question that we're at a point that performance has outstriped true need by a wide margin and any reasonable configuration will work. Given the huge performance gain even the e4300 has vs anything from AMD why would anyone buy an AMD cpu right now? As many have mentioned its a good time to pick up the best 939 chip available if you have a 939 socket system. The AM2 combo's aren't any cheaper then the e4300 combo's....not enough to matter anyway.
In a game like AH which is CPU dependent I'd think the difference in CPU capability would be noticable at max settings....
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I guess I just haven't seen trustworthy core 2 duo base systems that have "real" motherboards... it seems like all the good core 2 duo mobos that have quality integrated parts and also have some expansion slots are very expensive.
That said, the linky to that goofy cross-dressing mobo we posted about a month ago was very interesting. sub-$100 for a board that supports AGP, DDR, and DDR2 memory...
I dunno. It comes down to how much performance and upgradability you can get for your $$$. If you can find a core 2 duo system with the same generic specs (same amount of ram, same HD size, same vid card, etc) and the same price, then the core 2 duo system is probably a better deal. I just haven't personally seen any of those that I'd trust. Dell has value core 2 duo systems but you don't get a pci-e slot or a standard case, mobo, sound card, or power supply. In my 20 years of PC building experience, there is nothing worse than a dell branded OEM sound card... Those things are absolutely horrible no matter what they call them. A "soundblaster" purchased from Dell is NOT a real soundblaster. It will have crappy amps, reduced quality processors and capacitors, will be flat-out missing signal processing components from the PCB, and the firmware/drivers will be severely crippled so you can't even install updated drivers from creative after Dell quits supporting the card.
Er... my point being that in my experience, I haven't seen a single $750 Core 2 Duo system that I'd care to own, but you can find many $750 AMD systems that have really nice components that are upgradable. Maybe you've seen stuff that I haven't, but I also don't bottom-feed when I go looking for my next upgrade :)
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It all depends on what phase of the cycle your in....my last two builds I focused on the motherboard. My 754 was a DFI lanparty (great MB)...only reason I went 754 was I couldnt find a pci-e ati 800pro that wasnt $100 over the AGP price...so I went 754 with the thought I'd wait for either the core duo or AM2 socket...that system still runs great BTW. My system before that was a gigabyte....both the gigabyte and azus boards (both respective top of line "non combo" boards failed at 18 months or so...
I've probably built 150 systems over the last 10 yrs. 80% were either workstations for various companies I owned (largest had 78 employees)...some were/are for friends (wife works at local school district) with roughly 30 or so being high end gamers. Absolutely no question that quality components are the preferable...and sometimes manditory. Defining exactly what is "quality" can be hard. I feel sometimes your paying for the brand name as much as the part. If we use Toms as a reliable 3rd party benchmark we often find that less recognized parts equal or exceed more recognized "name parts".
If we use my most recent "upgrade" as a specific example there is potential value in "bargain basement" shopping. My "other system" is fine with the exception of issues that rendered AH difficult do to "warping" brought on by ATI/Nvidia driver conflicts. The memory management clock cycle conflict (think I got that right) caused warping that diminished game play for me and was unfair to those I was fighting....
After some contemplation I chose a e6600 "combo" over other options on the basis of getting the most CPU I could for the long haul. The ECS PT890T-A actually had good reviews on various forums...most of the bad ones were either generic or bios related etc. After having installed it I'd say its a good basic board. Seemless install no glitches...runs very stable and benchmarks reasonably well at stock settings. No question your giving up a few % overall to a better MB....but esentially it was free:). The e6600 is generally regarded as the best overall value (stock+OC potential) in just about every forum I read (many running it a 3.6 or higher). Meanwhile this core system will do fine as a work station with a 6300 later. I'll keep the e6600 and dump it in a top line OC board with an 8800 or similiar leaving the all but the chip in the current box.
Now would I buy the ESC....hell no. But I'll take it every day as a free "CPU holder" that will give me a year or so of service while things sort out. I'm a stone cold AMD fan (and have been since the K6 chips)....but right now the value isnt there IMO. A crappy core duo on a crappy MB is still head and shoulders over anything else on the planet.
When I say crappy I dont mean failure prone, out of spec, damage your system crappy....I mean less then stellar. I have 4 work stations with "spacewalker" MB's that have run since mid 2001 without ever being turned off. Everyone is still rock solid...from my perspective MB's and power supplies are the two most mis-understood elements in PC building. I'm more concerned about the chips on the MB then the name on it....now I would never pay for a VIA chipset...so I'd never pay retail....even $55 retail for this ECS board. But it works just fine....and I can live with it for now with NP. Where I get confused is when guys bypass a "junk board" to by a "name" board with esentially the exact same components for $89 or $109 or $139. To me (especially with core duo) your either in the $150-$230 range or it doesnt matter....just my thoughts on it all.
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But whats more important to me is how well the machine will play basic games like AH, CoD2, Vanguard......stuff
Just up grade the video card IMO , and make sure it's not Vista OS .
I would get at 7900 or 7950 .