Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Krusty on February 20, 2007, 01:19:09 AM
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Spain received many aircraft from Germany under the Bär program, including Ju88s, 109Fs, and panzer tanks. They only received a small number of these 109Fs, but receive them they did! The idea was to have Spain help out in the MTO, but this didn't really develop as intended.
My Picture hangar is full (from all the progress screenshots from all the skins waiting approval -- I can't clear them off until the next skin pack is released!!! ARGH!) so I'll attach these one at a time.
I was inspired to do this by a Spanish model builder that did the research and built a scale model with this paint scheme. I e-mailed him and asked him a few questions and got some info in return.
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It's not really done, just fleshing out some camo lines here.
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Color profile from one of the books used by the Spanish model builder. The 6 is the wrong type, as in a wartime photo you can just barely make out part of the 6 and it's more like the style of "135".
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The wartime photo
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Part of the 6. I'm going to do it like the 5 but with rounded edges (and a flat join on the upper beam)
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And a shot of the model this Spanish guy built after doing all the research. I'm using this as inspiration for the upper camo, but am not adhereing to it 100%
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Not sure how to do the object.txt file. They didn't really break it up into squadrons in Spain, did they? The 6 meant the type of fighter and the 135 meant the 135th fighter received of that type (starting at 1 with the earliest 109 variants during the Spanish Civil War, I think?)
I was thinking of putting "6*135 by Krusty" but wanted to ask opinions first.
"6/135 Spanish by Krusty" works too, but might be misleading because it's not 6th sqn, 135th group.
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Might wanna look into it a bit more (though I have no idea where to start), the Romanians numbered theres the same way for the most part, but they were still broken down into units, so I'd have to assume that the Spanish probably did the same thing.
The 109G2 "White 7" for example was both the 7th 109G2 received by the ARR and assigned to Grupul 7 Vanatoare (strictly coincidence).
I have to take your word for how they numbered theirs as I know nothing about the Spanish AIr Force, but looking at how many contemporary nations numbered their aircraft reseived from the Germans, my first assumption in looking at it was that it was the 135th 109F and was assigned to the 6th squardon, or something to that effect.
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They started during the spanish civil war. The early prototypes started with 1. The 109Bs were in the 50s, the Cs started somewhere in the 60s, the 109Es went from the 90s to the 100s, so the 135 seems about right for 109Fs.
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For Spain! it must be done:aok
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Spain has a cool airforce symbol. Anyways, good work, looks great.
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Ah, ok, totally different then. Well, it was an idea anyway, never said it was a good one. :D
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More (downsized a bit so it fits in forum attachment)
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top
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Hrm... I think the wing roundels are too small.. I'll have to fix that.
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Some weathering and other bits (exhausts, etc). I tweaked the rivets just after this, because they weren't showing up on the dark colors. A quick blending/opacity change and all is better, but I don't know if you'd be able to see them in these screenshots anyway, so I didn't take new shots.
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Other side
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Bottom
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i really like the tail on the rudder the color scheme on that is very interesting and pretty
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Well I've sent an e-mail to the guy I mentioned, that did all the research and built a model of the same aircraft. I asked him if he knew what squadron/group/whatever-the-term-may-be. I'll just wait for a response before submitting.
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Krusty you know I have no idea how to do skins, and please don't interpret this as me being critical.
I am wondering why the grey portion of the camo scheme is not more of a tan color, like in the model and in the one color picture.
I will run and hide now.
:)
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Originally posted by SLED
Krusty you know I have no idea how to do skins, and please don't interpret this as me being critical.
I am wondering why the grey portion of the camo scheme is not more of a tan color, like in the model and in the one color picture.
I will run and hide now.
:)
Originally posted by Krusty
And a shot of the model this Spanish guy built after doing all the research. I'm using this as inspiration for the upper camo, but am not adhereing to it 100%
[/B]
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although i think it would look better with more tan in the gray
runs to hide with sled
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Didn't see the replies til now
That could be. It could be a trick of the lighting, though. Here's why I chose the color I did, and I'm not 100% I'm right but this is the logic behind the choice.
In my experience there's only 2 tints to grey: brown or blue. Usually very slight hints, but they can describe it quite clearly. They're often at opposing ends of the grey specturm, IMO. My grey came off as more of a blue tint.
In the article, Barry said he used RLM 65, 61, 62 & 63
RLM 63 is Hellgrau, which is a grey on the blue end of the spectrum, as opposed to RLM 04, seen on some 109s/190s. RLM 04 is more on the brown end of the spectrum.
I found a color swatch of RLM 63, which was used on aircraft in the Spanish Civil War, and compared it to some others. It seemed a good match. I pulled out my 72nd 109C-0 with SCW markings and compared that color as well. I had to do some cross-referencing to find the right color of paint back when I did this thing, but I think I found the proper color when I did. It also has more of a slightly blue tint (rather than red). So I think I'm right in the tint, but perhaps not the precise shade.
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Okay! Opinion time!!!
I heard back from my Spanish friend, and he has no clue as to what the squadron might be. In his research it never came up.
So, I need a description for this.
My first idea was:
"6*135 by Krusty"
But I'm not too keen on it. Not descriptive enough.
Other ideas:
"Spanish Nationalist by Krusty" (perhaps too long?)
"109F Spain by Krusty" (again, IMO not descriptive enough)
I mean, if I at least knew part of the group/squadron/whatever, I could put that as:
" Spanish by Krusty" (sub 1 sqn, 2 group, 3 AF, whatever)
So please post here if you have suggestions for how this should read. The skin's done and all I lack is this information. I can't submit it until I have something.
Also if anybody has any books on the subject and might have a clue, I'm open to suggestions from you as well!
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Krusty-
I seldom take a look at the skins forum, but your rendition of a spanish 109F has definitely generated a lot of interest. I've been looking around everywhere in the net, using a mixture of english and spanish (I am a native spanish speaker) to get some results. I ran into this page:
http://piezaapieza.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=80&products_id=6955&osCsid=f4fc4a6170da94b507a5911e2ba55ae4
You will probably be more interested on this: http://piezaapieza.net/images/PPD48201.04.jpg
Notice the similarity between the 109E and your 109F. However, when you get to the 109F, it lists it as "Regimiento 23" which translates to "23rd Regiment" which clearly indicates the first number as being the Regiment number. They make no mention of the second number. I also found out, from several sources in the internet, that only Group 25 (Grupo 25) had 109s, with the 23rd Regiment (23 Regimiento de Caza) based in Reus. Unfortunately, all of this information is in spanish http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ej%C3%A9rcito_del_Aire_Espa%C3%B1ol which is also corroborated by the official spanish air force webpage here http://www.ejercitodelaire.mde.es/webaire.nsf/generahtml?OpenAgent&id=9018D629F4DA738DC12570D700465277 The 109F4 were second hand and bought by Spain in 1943 together with some Ju88A4 (http://www.ejercitodelaire.mde.es/webaire.nsf/generahtml?OpenAgent&id=8C2DAF19E610FA97C12570DD0042AB3E)
It does seem the skin you have created corresponds to a 109E, check out the pictures here http://www.apave-es.org/aviones/cazas/me109/me109.php as every possible reference I've found (some very detailed and cross referenced with other sites) indicate that 15 109F4 were bought by Spain, only 14 made it to their final destination (one of them crashed) and incorporated to the 23rd Regiment.
In any case, I think it would be a fantastic addition to have a Spanish skin for the 109E and 109F4 . Hope to see your skin soon!
Emu
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After re-reading your post, and taking a look at that awesome skin, I noticed the war time picture of that 109. It definitely looks like a 109F, which is now making me really confused because it is painted with the colors of the Aviacion Nacional. During the mid to late 30s, Spain was in the midst of a huge civil war, the communist side (Aviacion Republicana) versus the nationalists (Aviacion Nacional). It would seem strange that a 109F, which was introduced after the civil war had ended, would be painted with the Aviacion Nacional colors, given that at this point, the newly formed Ejercito del Aire was in effect (with its own paint scheme).
Anyway, sorry I confused things more here... but like the title of your post says, it is indeed weird but true. Bring the skin to the game!
Emu
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Emu, many thanks for looking up those links for me. I'll take a look at them in a little bit and see what they have to offer.
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Those are some interesting resources.
It does indeed say "23 Regimiento de Caza".
However, I'm looking at the part above that, the part titled: "Creación Ejército del Aire", and it says the only group to have 109s was:
-Región Aérea del Pirineo.
---25 Grupo. Me-109, Logroño.
So, could one deduce that all the 109Fs were in the same group as the other 109s? Would that place them in 23 regiment, 25 group? Regiment de Caza, regiment of chase, if I'm correct. That's basically another way of saying "Squadron." So it would be
"23 squadron/25 group" ("23 Sqn/25 Grp" for short)
Or have I got that totally wrong?
As for the code on the side, the image you showed does have a 23 before the roundel, but that is how they did it after they changed the numbering. In mordern Spanish numbering, the first number is the regiment (squadron), and this is explained with the example on that link, talking about the F-18s, if I'm right?
But before that, the number before the roundel was the aircraft type. You sparked a memory. I was in an online group build for scale models and we used a pretty nice page on the Spanish Civil War as a reference page.
It had a lot of info, including details into the codes. I looked up my old archives and had a bookmark.
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/codes.html
The 6 wasn't the group, squadron, or location code. It was the type code. Numbers 1 through 9 were reserved for fighters. The 109 series happened to be assigned the number "6", and you will find this on almost all 109s in Spanish service. That's the problem, because it doesn't tell you what regiment it's in, if it just has a "6" -- because now you know it's the old code system.
He also wrote a secondary page about 109s in the Spanish Civil War. It seems the 109Es stopped at 6*131. Seeing that the photo we have is of 6*135, it stands to reason that the 109F photo is just a continuation of the 6*131 codes.
The Spanish picked up the 109Fs second hand. They were used. That means they had German markings. They flew them in and repainted it, because the photo definitely is not of Luftwaffe camouflage.
Thus, I say they took it, painted it this way, coded it this way, and flew it this way (otherwise they would not have bothered to paint and number it!). I say they changed the code system and the camouflage at a later time. I say that this camouflage was used until the new system, whenever that was introduced. Unfortunately, the old codes do not help with figuring out where an aircraft is stationed. That's where the links you supplied come in handy!
With the links you've supplied, I'm willing to say this 109F was in "23 squadron, 25 group."
I would never have had any idea what to name it without your help.
I'll wait to hear your response, to see if you think this is logical, or it there was no "group" -- if it was just "23 squadron", or some variation. If we can arrive at some sort of logical agreement, I'll submit the skin!
I think that the logic supports this
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Hey Krusty-
Had fun reading your reply. I concurr with your observations.
The Regimiento de Caza 23 cosisted of several groups, one of which was Group 25. So yes, naming it 25th Group/23rd Regiment or 23rd Reg/25th Group would be correct. By the way, I did corroborate the fact that 109Es stopped at 131 through some information in the spanish Ejercito del Aire webpage.
Regimiento de Caza is a translation for Fighter Regiment. In spanish we typically use caza for the verb hunt. I guess you could also say pursuit. In any case, it follows that only fighters were allowed in that regiment.
Here is a link (again, in spanish, sorry) about someone who is more interested in the SuperCurtiss (http://members.fortunecity.com/sanmarca/supercurtiss.htm) but sheds light into the our topic at hand. What it essentially says is:
"After the birth of the Ejercito del Aire, and its corresponding unit reorganization, the Supercurtiss become Group 24th, remaining as such after october 1940 when, after the dissappearance of Squadrons and the creation of Regiments, the group is relocated to Reus where, together with Group 25 (made up of Bf-109s), they form the 23rd Regimiento de Caza".
So, there it goes. We now understand that Groups form a Regiment (which is an equivalent to a squadron) and only Group 25 had 109s.
Voila! Let me know if I can help you with anything else.
Regards,
Emu
ps: Here is the original text in spanish.
Tras la constitución del Ejército del Aire y la correspondiente reorganización de sus unidades, el Grupo de Supercurtiss recibe la denominación de Grupo 24, permaneciendo hasta después de octubre de 1940 en que tras la desaparición de la Escuadras y la creación de los Regimientos, el Grupo se traslada a Reus para con el Grupo 25 (dotado con los Bf-109) formar el 23 Regimiento de Caza.
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Excellent! I am indebted to you, good sir!
I was thinking it would be okay to use "squadron", but that shows they changed it from squadron to "regiment".
I will list it as:
"23 Reg/25 Grp by Krusty"
EDIT: I've submitted the skin as of now! Yay! Finally!