Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Chilli on February 20, 2007, 11:15:53 AM
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Tired of seeing black spider web on winshield in fights?:furious
I wish engine and radiator hits would produce puffs of smoke (same effect as smoke in other arenas -- just generated above the nose & create a puff effect by alternating smoke off and on):D
My squadee had an idea of internal cockpit smoke (same effect as ground vehicle smoke). Also, suggested flames in internal cockpit after engine quits.:cool:
Do you agree that current damage sprite is in need of an update?:(
Please, post any suggestions.:aok
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Aye, yes.
I'd like fluctuating engines due to damage.
I was playing IL2 for a short while (can't handle that game, the controls and flight model just boggle my mind). Anyway, i took a hit from an Il2 in a 109 and took some engine damage.
Subsequently the engine power out-put systematically reduce and the engine coughed, spluttered and fluctuated.
This was a cool effect.
Maybe just have a new 'skin' for the oil slick? I'm sure that can be changed somehow.
Then we could just skin it and submit it
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Originally posted by Chilli
Tired of seeing black spider web on winshield in fights?:furious
Your not supposed to like it. I would rather have that than white steam and dirtywater all over the place. :D
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Originally posted by Kuhn
Your not supposed to like it. I would rather have that than white steam and dirtywater all over the place. :D
Hmmm, let me put it this way. Look at every other aspect of detail in this game. Even the damaged ground vehicles and ground strikes are more exciting to look at. But, wouldn't dirty water, spring water, or even holy water, be an improvement over the old and rather stationary peek-a-boo black silly string stuck to your cockpit? :rolleyes:
I do respect your opinion Kuhn, and whether or not I agree, I wish to ask you once more.
Are you happy with permanent zebra stripes on your cockpit?
If not, what would you like to see instead? :noid
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Personal opinion: (whispers....... I think Kuhn has worn his black face camouflague too long .... and leaves oily streaks all over everything, and that's how he likes it) :lol
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Having engine oil smeared across the windscreen was a hazard of aerial combat in WWII.
Can't see changing it. Maybe ADDING additional effects, loss of engine power, surging, and such, but can't see changing the existing effect.
If it bothers you THAT much, learn to fly the P-38. No oily windscreens in that plane. Or.... learn not to get shot up and avoid HO passes.
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i would like the engine separate from the plane, lol. then we go into a stall and drop to the ground. or it would just explode, the engine, and u get a pilot wound. and YES, i hate those black spider webs.
Also, the oil come from the engine, but we see oil in the back too. or is it oil placed AROUND the canopy and engine?
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Yup, no doubt oil went everywhere, messed up your vision, but how often do they change the oil in AH? Although a hazard, was it the consistency of superglue and the color of crude? Or was it maybe a lil more translucent? From conversations that I have had in the MA, it occurs very easily in 109s, and I would guess also Mustangs. Any dual engine plane avoids this the same as P38.
I don't get it? What is the objection to adding a lil smoke (imo much more interesting and also visually accurate --- oil wouldn't just sit there in one spot --- would stream in the way that currently modeled smoke would). :confused:
Given the 2 choices, would u rather see a picture of Michael Jordan's last dunk or watch the replay? :p
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By the way I could also just turn the gamma up and zoom in between the stripes also, if that were my only objection to it.:cool:
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However bad you think it is in AH, it's definitely toned down.
(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
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Yep, there's countless photos like the one Pyro just posted, on lots of aircraft. I've seen a P51 that's even worse (belly landed, oil all over the place, even out onto the wings).
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You should put a kettle of boiling water and another of oil on your desk and have an atomizer spray you in the face when you take an engine hit.
:)
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Originally posted by Chilli
Hmmm, let me put it this way. Look at every other aspect of detail in this game. Even the damaged ground vehicles and ground strikes are more exciting to look at. But, wouldn't dirty water, spring water, or even holy water, be an improvement over the old and rather stationary peek-a-boo black silly string stuck to your cockpit?
Are you happy with permanent zebra stripes on your cockpit?
If not, what would you like to see instead? :noid
I suppose the graphics could be bumped up so that that the oily mess over your windscreen could have some motion..... but in that case, there would probably also be accumulation over time as more oil was forced out of the engine, out of the engine compartment, into the slipstream, and onto the window (and rest of the plane).
Steam and such from the radiator would typically "go low" as they were usually mounted low and airflow over the radiator existed the plane on the underside.
Engine misfires, power loss, and such would be nice additions to battle damage (so would limited ability to fight some engine fires), but I see not reason or need to get ride of the current oil effect.
It's a pain when stuck in the middle of a fight or trying to land or ditch. It's supposed to be inconvenient when your motor pukes oil all over the rest of the plane. If I were to add anything to the effect, it would be the ability to open up the cockpit, in planes that would allow that in-flight, so I could look out of the side a bit better.
And so far, at least the pilots in the game can't catch fire. Wounded yes, but I've yet to see a cockpit fire.
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Originally posted by Pyro
However bad you think it is in AH, it's definitely toned down.
(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
I want this kind of oil leak (perhaps randomized- some oil hits minor, look like they do now, others worse, looking like the pic?), and smoke, and fire, and reduced engine power, and I also want the pilot to slowly roast alive. I want pain and suffering and damage of a magnitude we've not yet seen in AH.
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I think many would like some progressive effect. Remember back in SWOTL where an oil hit would speckle and then gradually cover more and more? That and some variety sure would be nice. What we have now is a significant improvement over AH1 but all in all its a bit limited.
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Originally posted by Chilli
But, wouldn't dirty water, spring water, or even holy water
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Holy water, uisge Beatha. mmmmmmmmmmm. Whisky mmmmmmmmmm
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
...and I also want the pilot to slowly roast alive. I want pain and suffering and damage of a magnitude we've not yet seen in AH.
so you want to be nopoop :D :rofl
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Originally posted by Chilli
Are you happy with permanent zebra stripes on your cockpit?
If not, what would you like to see instead? :noid
um....how about clear window with fully working oil pressure?
:cool:
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In the racing games I play there is a gradual buildup of oil/grease/dirt/rubber on the windshild until you pit and the pit crew pulls a tear-off off.
It's a neat effect and doesn't seem to hurt FR's either.
I'm sure something similar would be possible here with engine damage.
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(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
I'm not sure a tear-off is gonna help with 30 gallons of oil pouring out of the cowl flaps. :D
Awesome pic Pyro. Kind of puts things in perspective...
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I agree, we need updated damage to the engine. Id like SOME warning the engine is malfunctioning, some clanking noise a few seconds early, instead of a sudden... nothingness...
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Originally posted by Serenity
I agree, we need updated damage to the engine. Id like SOME warning the engine is malfunctioning, some clanking noise a few seconds early, instead of a sudden... nothingness...
Just watch that little falling oil gauge. It will let you know, in case the oily windscreen is not enough of a hint to head back the barn to be chewed out by the plane's crew chief.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Just watch that little falling oil gauge. It will let you know, in case the oily windscreen is not enough of a hint to head back the barn to be chewed out by the plane's crew chief.
I watch it like a strip-tease. Its a havit my instructor has drilled into me. But planes like the Spitfire are CONSTANTLY in the redline on temperatures. Ive nursed about 10 planes now, home with 0 oil. Its all about enginge temperature, and cooling things off. But with planes like the Spifire mk IX, even with full oil, the temperature is naturally in teh redline, and its very hard to tell just how deep in the redline it goes poof. Same with radiator. In real life theres at least SOME sign, other than whats on the gauges, that something is very wrong.
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Yeah, that looks pretty bad. Like someone suggested above, probably resulting at least partially from a build up.
:confused:
Okay, let's take a look at what happens in AH (too often if you attack bombers ). You position your plane just out of reach of a dozen gunners all pointed towards you. You build your speed and pick your moment. Now! You see an opening, and you have others who have joined in to keep some of the attention from your speeding dive. You squeeze of a few rounds and rip into a wing and just about to kick some but. Whap! Spiderman webs your cockpit! :huh
Also good suggestions here of alternative effects, like opening cockpit, slow build up of debris, engine sputters and performance fall outs.:aok
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(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
I think it's the result of an oil-tank explosion of some sort while on the ground? (look at the oil going downwards from the fuselage)
Might also be over-excited painters :D
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Originally posted by Chilli
_____________________________ _
Personal opinion: (whispers....... I think Kuhn has worn his black face camouflague too long .... and leaves oily streaks all over everything, and that's how he likes it) :lol [/B]
Thats funny :aok :D
OK I do agree that something else should happen once in awhile.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Having engine oil smeared across the windscreen was a hazard of aerial combat in WWII.
Can't see changing it. Maybe ADDING additional effects, loss of engine power, surging, and such, but can't see changing the existing effect.
If it bothers you THAT much, learn to fly the P-38. No oily windscreens in that plane. Or.... learn not to get shot up and avoid HO passes.
Yeah... what he sez... Now adding the puffy smoke thing, or animating the oil streaks might be cool. :aok
But then people are gong to start asking for frost build up inside the cockpit for those strat guys that come screaming down, and then you'll need defrosters to handle the frost, and shivering pilots....
:O
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Originally posted by frank3
(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
I think it's the result of an oil-tank explosion of some sort while on the ground? (look at the oil going downwards from the fuselage)
Might also be over-excited painters :D
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/confused0043.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
You're not serious are you? Oil obviously came out of the cowl flaps. Those streaks down the side came after the bird was on the ground. Little thing called gravity.
Its actually one of the more spectacular examples I've seen. Pity the poor pilot trying to catch a glimpse out the side of the open cockpit with hot engine oil running by. A testament to his flying ability since the rest of the plane seems to be in good shape.
The question is: was it enemy fire that cause the oil loss, or mechanical failure? Either will produce that effect though.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg
I'm not sure a tear-off is gonna help with 30 gallons of oil pouring out of the cowl flaps. :D
Awesome pic Pyro. Kind of puts things in perspective...
I wonder what the story is behind this picture? Don't see any damage, unless he took a canon HO in the nose.
Ground test and a line break somewhere? Anyone have ideas how we can ID the unit and get the scoop?
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Originally posted by Stoney74
(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/pyro/oilhit.jpg)
I'm not sure a tear-off is gonna help with 30 gallons of oil pouring out of the cowl flaps. :D
Awesome pic Pyro. Kind of puts things in perspective...
Thats for sure - he got it HOME after taking that hit.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Yep, there's countless photos like the one Pyro just posted, on lots of aircraft. I've seen a P51 that's even worse (belly landed, oil all over the place, even out onto the wings).
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then I guess 10 pictures would be worth ...... errr .... ummm ..... me standing my ground.
Krusty countless? Did you forget you had toes? :D You guys are probably right.
I just don't see that the probability of hitting an oil line (or my other favorite cannon) to be almost statically as high as fuel tanks, given the difference in surface areas. :confused:
But yet let me get within 1.5 k of B17s or new airfield and that is what I get.:rolleyes:
:cry oops! Turned into a whine. Well if, like some of you have pointed out I won't get my wish, maybe one of you has another visual alternative ;)
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Originally posted by Chilli
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then I guess 10 pictures would be worth ...... errr .... ummm ..... me standing my ground.
...But yet let me get within 1.5 k of B17s or new airfield and that is what I get.:rolleyes:
Hey, yer giing yer fellow Virginian's a bad name with them tears... cut it out.
And what's this you're getting hit from 1.5k out? What'r ya doing, standing on your tail in hover mode? :huh
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Someone should do a skin of that that bird. :D
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It looks to me like theres a hole or some sort of damage at the top of the cowling, right around the origin point of the oil streak. Looks like large-caliber ground fire to me.
(http://80thfs.homestead.com/wd-c3.jpg)
Now THAT one definitely came out from under the cowling. :D
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Originally posted by Odee
I wonder what the story is behind this picture? Don't see any damage, unless he took a canon HO in the nose.
Ground test and a line break somewhere? Anyone have ideas how we can ID the unit and get the scoop?
It is a P-47D-23-RA assigned to the 367th Fighter Squadron of the 358th Fighter Group, 9th Air Force. It was reported to have collected a 3.7cm Flak round in the engine while strafing German ground units in France. It flew home with two cylinders literally blown off the motor.
My regards,
Widewing
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I was gonna say that looked like missing cylinders to me. You need a pretty good sized hole in the case to throw that much oil. If it was a small hole, you could still spill the same quantity, but not in such a spectacularly wide fan covering the entire fuselage. What a testament to the R-2800 engine and the Jug in general. Had to have been very comforting (at least once he made it home) to realize you had that kind of hardware strapped to your body. Kind of reminded me of that P-51 at Reno this year that threw a rod through the bottom of the case. Same arterial oil-letting. Partner that picture up with Johnson's plane after it got shredded and you've got a great testimony to Republic's and Pratt & Whitney's engineering.
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If only the game was so kind to the 2800.
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Thats what i will always love janes ww2 fighter for.
the cockpit damage was amazeing, and hearing your pilot scream in aggony as blood spat all over was just..too cool.
not to mention you didnt pass out from blood loss.. you flew on..then screamed in aggony for however long,till your pilot just died..then you would ride your plane down to the ground in peace.
Also loved how the engine could seperated from the fuselage if it shook too violently or if it was "somehow" blown clean off.
and the fact you could at a right angle "survive" a ground strike, altho the prop would be torn up "violent engine shakeing example" and the body bent like 15 degreese.
:|
HT, get on it man,thats a 98' game 0.o
***oh..the topic!***
Haveing played flight sims sence red barron "ehem the appleII sidescrooler not 3d one *till laters*"/janes ATF
I would say the best improvement we could see for oil is animated oil flowing up the window slowly.
As it is right now, the milisecond your engine gets hit..BAM..you have your screen jacked up and it stays that way till you auger,land or die..ither way "thats all folks"
it would be much better to have the oil animated to slowly slide up the window and plane .ect
maby even have the animation play slower/quicker with windspeed.
that way if a plane is moving at say 150mph the oil would cover slower,than at 300-400 "also maby a lower engine seting would make oil spurt out less,same with +g -g's
Work with that idea for a bit, dont worry about the sideways motion,just focus on animation,and animation speed with plane speed
Ill be happy ;)
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Thats what i will always love janes ww2 fighter for.
the cockpit damage was amazeing, and hearing your pilot scream in aggony as blood spat all over was just..too cool.
not to mention you didnt pass out from blood loss.. you flew on..then screamed in aggony for however long,till your pilot just died..then you would ride your plane down to the ground in peace.
Also loved how the engine could seperated from the fuselage if it shook too violently or if it was "somehow" blown clean off.
and the fact you could at a right angle "survive" a ground strike, altho the prop would be torn up "violent engine shakeing example" and the body bent like 15 degreese.
:|
HT, get on it man,thats a 98' game 0.o
***oh..the topic!***
Haveing played flight sims sence red barron "ehem the appleII sidescrooler not 3d one *till laters*"/janes ATF
I would say the best improvement we could see for oil is animated oil flowing up the window slowly.
As it is right now, the milisecond your engine gets hit..BAM..you have your screen jacked up and it stays that way till you auger,land or die..ither way "thats all folks"
it would be much better to have the oil animated to slowly slide up the window and plane .ect
maby even have the animation play slower/quicker with windspeed.
that way if a plane is moving at say 150mph the oil would cover slower,than at 300-400 "also maby a lower engine seting would make oil spurt out less,same with +g -g's
Work with that idea for a bit, dont worry about the sideways motion,just focus on animation,and animation speed with plane speed
Ill be happy ;)
Two words... Frame rates.
If this were done there should be a way to turn off the animation if it becomes a frame rate issue, otherwise good idea.
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Originally posted by Chilli
Hmmm, let me put it this way. Look at every other aspect of detail in this game. Even the damaged ground vehicles and ground strikes are more exciting to look at. But, wouldn't dirty water, spring water, or even holy water, be an improvement over the old and rather stationary peek-a-boo black silly string stuck to your cockpit? :rolleyes:
I do respect your opinion Kuhn, and whether or not I agree, I wish to ask you once more.
Are you happy with permanent zebra stripes on your cockpit?
If not, what would you like to see instead? :noid
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Personal opinion: (whispers....... I think Kuhn has worn his black face camouflague too long .... and leaves oily streaks all over everything, and that's how he likes it) :lol
I know what I would like spread all over my cockpit... But I cant type it here....
Hmmm Too far perhaps... :p
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Originally posted by mussie
I know what I would like spread all over my cockpit... But I cant type it here....
Hmmm Too far perhaps... :p
What's the big deal with peanut butter? :confused:
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Originally posted by mussie
I know what I would like spread all over my cockpit... But I cant type it here....
Hmmm Too far perhaps... :p
You talkin about the blond winsheild wipers? :D
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That's it.
Replace the oil streak with a random Pin Up Girl (the Varga Girl will do too)...
Betty Grable, Joan Lawrence, Susan Hayward, Donna Drake, Rita Hayworth, Ava Gardner, Ingrid Bergman, Esther Williams, Lana Turner.....
Brilliant!
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/happy0167.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
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Now I see while you like WW2 :D
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Originally posted by Kuhn
You talkin about the blond winsheild wipers? :D
They make a flyable windscreen that dumb... ermm large?!?! :O
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I want this kind of oil leak (perhaps randomized- some oil hits minor, look like they do now, others worse, looking like the pic?), and smoke, and fire, and reduced engine power, and I also want the pilot to slowly roast alive. I want pain and suffering and damage of a magnitude we've not yet seen in AH.
I want to hear the pilot screaming in pain..... :t
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Originally posted by Kuhn
You talkin about the blond winsheild wipers? :D
I know what photo your talking about..... :aok
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Another well known photo of a oil covered Jug.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1172188557_oil.jpg)
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You know, even having 3 different oil 'patterns' would be cool, like someone above said.
That would be relatively easy to impliment, I'd think and you could have something like 'Minor', 'Moderate' and 'Severe' hits....
We could even have severe leaks favoring one side for example or something like that?
That would be a nice addition.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
You know, even having 3 different oil 'patterns' would be cool, like someone above said.
That would be relatively easy to impliment, I'd think and you could have something like 'Minor', 'Moderate' and 'Severe' hits....
We could even have severe leaks favoring one side for example or something like that?
That would be a nice addition.
Yeahhhhhhh...! :aok
Probably item 5,023,497 on the list of things to do at HTC. :rofl
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Originally posted by Odee
Yeahhhhhhh...! :aok
Probably item 5,023,497 on the list of things to do at HTC. :rofl
I was flying a Hurricane last night over TT airfield and I got a nose hit. To my surprise steam was puffing up from the nose of the plane. I have never ever appreciated damage to my plane before. For a split second, it felt like someone had granted my wish. Still, it was an awesome effect. Excellent marks for HTC:aok
Anyone who has any questions as to what I am asking to see implemented, should fly the Hurricane (can't remember if it was IIC or Mk I). :cool:
Placing the smoke in front of the cockpit instead of behind, don't know how that would impact frame rates. It would be sweet if it were just that simple to code. ___________________
Odee, those were manly tears. You know, like in Bud Light commercials. (Chilli reaches for Odee's beer).:D
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Originally posted by Chilli
...Odee, those were manly tears. You know, like in Bud Light commercials. (Chilli reaches for Odee's beer).:D
*drops the Snikers bar on the table, and back warily away* :O
Cool, Chilli... I mean, like... ya know? It's like goin into a biker bar and orderin Cranberry Juice... No sweat man.
*runs screaming into the night* It's a mad house! A mad house!
:lol :noid
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Cool, Chilli... I mean, like... ya know? It's like goin into a biker bar and orderin Cranberry Juice... No sweat man.
Let a man make one lil slip up ............:D
Did you guys know that the Hurricane had this kind of damage and you weren't telling me.:confused: Oh, man it was awesome. :O
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Saw the same thing in my pony last night when I took a oil line and coolant hit... Scared heck outta me, but I had that get in touch with your femenine side moment too :eek:
Shame I hit a tree trying to land the kills made earlier... :cry :cry
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Some planes seem to have there own special damage. The thing that mostly happens to that plane when hit. D9 and typh seem to be radiator first. P40 always seems to be flaps first. Is it me or do you guys see that too?
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I can see from the oft used photo that the oil has been blown out the upper engine cooling vent gap and been directed by prop wash and normal air flow over the wing root to the cockpit........
On a P47.
I could see how this also applies to most radial engined Bloooo planes and the Zekes and may be some others where the engine cooling is basically 360 degrees.
Even so I expect that the engine leak concerned is some where near the top of the engine?
Are there any pics of this re hurricanes spitfires, p51's, Yaks, Tony's and 109's? where would oil eminate from the engine canopy on these water cooled birds that did not have air vents to direct oil flow at the canopy screen? ( I dont know of a yak picture)
What about Radial FW190's and lavochkins where the cooling vents are low on the engine canopy sides?
Ideally (admitting that ideally is not something always doable)
It seems to me
that radials could have the oil leak source split to upper or lower engine.
that radials with 360 degree air flow vents (out) should allow oil to flow upper or lower fuselage accordingly.
that radials with side only vents should have oil flow out along side fuselage accordingly
that inline water cooled should have oil flow out accordingly (where from??)
Then the degree of oil black out is a feature of the model type for various single engined planes just as it is on various twins/singles.
That given that the cockpit canopy should be capable of sliding back as would be possible on the model.....the degree of black out should be as would be experienced on the model.....
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Not all the blue planes had 360-degree cowl flaps.
The F4U-1 did, but I think the top 3 or 4 were usually permanently fixed closed in the field (actuators removed, I guess?) due to oil throwing under NORMAL operations, much less from damage. I think most 1As and later didn't have those particular flaps at all.
Not sure about the cowl flap arrangement on the Wildkitty or Fatcat.
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During my banner towing days on the Jersey Shore, while towing the Allen Carpet banner near Sandy Hook, NJ and just about to cross over to tow Coney Island beach NY when I lost one jug on the 150HP Lycomming.
The aircraft was a J3 Cub modified for banner towing. Hot Oil was thrown up on the windscreen and I had to side slip left and right to see, I had the right side of the J3 open and I had to lower the left side window as it became covered in oil film to be able to continue to see out that side when I slipped in that direction. As I remember it there was no white smoke, just heavy black smoke out of the exhaust stacks . I think HT has it pretty much right the way it is.
Oh, I lost the banner, but was able to put the J3 down at the fish factory which had a runway for the fish spotter fleet that work out of Leonardo NJ. The aircraft which was classic Cub Yellow at the start of the flight was now black from the spinner hub back to the cockpit and brown from the cockpit back to the tail. I was covered from head to waist from leaning out into the slip stream to see where I was headed. You could not see forward through the windscreen at all. The inside was a total mess. Oh yea, the oil was very very hot. I had a few second degree burns on the face, neck and arms.
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I don't think its modeled inaccurately though it would be nice to have more variable types of damage. It would be even more fun to have the worst of the oil stains cover the front windscreen almost entirely and be able to open the cockpit to see better. Of course our pilot would go ouchies ouchies! and cuss occasionally.
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Originally posted by Traveler
During my banner towing days on the Jersey Shore, while towing the Allen Carpet banner near Sandy Hook, NJ and just about to cross over to tow Coney Island beach NY when I lost one jug on the 150HP Lycomming.
Nice story, and even better flying!
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Originally posted by Tilt
I can see from the oft used photo that the oil has been blown out the upper engine cooling vent gap and been directed by prop wash and normal air flow over the wing root to the cockpit........
On a P47.
I could see how this also applies to most radial engined Bloooo planes and the Zekes and may be some others where the engine cooling is basically 360 degrees..................Are there any pics of this re hurricanes spitfires, p51's, Yaks, Tony's and 109's? where would oil eminate from the engine canopy on these water cooled birds that did not have air vents to direct oil flow at the canopy screen? ( I dont know of a yak picture)
That's what I'm talkin about:aok I think Filth also has a point that seemingly, type of damage has been altered on some models.
So, compromise :confused: Keep it, enhance it, even make my life miserable for choosing to fly a jug or likewise vulnerable to oil damage aircraft. :huh Just turn it off or down in those not as vulnerable. ( I would much rather recieve engine sputters or even dead engine with more frequency than currently every HO resulting in spiderweb).
Traveler, awesome story and point of view. This does firm up a suspicion that oily damage would be more likely or severe in jugs (closely resembling wings and rudder strapped to massive engine).:D