Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: frank3 on February 21, 2007, 12:14:10 PM
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Are the craters of heavier bombs in fact larger?
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I'd have to think so. Back when I was only playing offline I expected the 4,000 lb bomb to make a larger explosion / crater than the 500 lb bombs I had loaded. I was disappointed to find out they didn't.
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That's a shame really, I guess it shouldn't be too hard to model.
I mean, the impact craters of the vehicles are smaller too, so it IS possible to shrink 'em :aok
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Very very true.
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How about we add a mushroom effect to the 4000Ib egg. That way we have a nuke for AH.
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Yeah, please the freaks who think they know WWII because they know the A-bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.
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nuke
is
band
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They think a nuke is interesting and is "elite". I would like a HYDRO BOMB!:t
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Originally posted by Denholm
They think a nuke is interesting and is "elite". I would like a HYDRO BOMB!:t
I'd Like to have an astroid the size of Texas.
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Originally posted by frank3
Are the craters of heavier bombs in fact larger?
Depends on bomb fuzing. A point-detonating fuze (sometimes referred to as "instantaneous) works to keep almost all of the blast and fragmentation effect above ground. I've seen 500lb, 1000lb, and 2000lb bomb craters that are much smaller than you would think they should be. A large portion of the dust you see in the air doesn't actually come out of the ground as much as its made up of dust from the area surrounding the crater in which the blast travels. I can't remember exactly, but from my memory from a few years ago, a 500lb bomb made a crater approximately 2 to 4 feet around, and approximately 6-12 inches deep. A 2000 lb bomb made a crater that was approx. 8-10 feet around, and a little over 1 foot deep. These were unguided bombs delivered from around a 30 degree dive angle, carried by AV8's, F-18's, F-14's, F-16's, and A-10's. I've not been up close and personal with craters made from bombs dropped from B-52's delivered from a flat profile.
If, on the other hand, a delay fuze is used, the bomb will actually penetrate into the ground before detonating, and will create a much larger crater. I've never seen delay fuzes in action, so I don't have a point of reference on their size.
I'll caveat this by saying that my experience is with current Mk80 series bombs, and not the bombs used in WWII. I have no idea what type of fuzing was used on the 4,000lb Cookie dropped by the Lancs in WWII.
I've also seen pictures from the Vietnam era of the bombs dropped by B-52's that look like the craters are much larger than those I described above. Again, I don't know what type of fuzing they were using back then, but ultimately, the time of detonation (either instantaneous or delayed) typically controls the depth and size of the crater. The medium in which the crater is made also can effect the size, as hard, compact soil won't crater as badly as loose, less compact soil.
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Yes they get bigger when the bombs get bigger, especially a 4k egg. But it also depends on what purpose the bomb itself.
General Purpose which about 50-percent of the bomb is explosive materials and weigh between 500 and 2,000 pounds do blast and fragmentation effects and the casing is about one half inch thick
Fragmentation which only roughly 10-20% of the bombs weight is explosive and the casing is scored so that it breaks into pieces. THis of course causes the high speed frag which does the damage.
Penatrator's whcih have about 25-30% of the bombs weight is explosive and the forward end of the bomb is usually solid steel so it will not crush on impact, because if it did this it does not cause the correct effect for the blast. Bunker busters/JDAM's (modern), which are usually a 2k egg can penatrate cement 7-9 feet thick.
One of the modern day bombs, a GBU-39 has only 50lbs of explosives and weighs only 250lbs has a blast radius of about 26ft in diameter, (compaired to a 2k bomb that makes a blast of about 80+ft), and makes this nice picture... yes that is steel reinforced concrete, six feet of it.
(http://www.ausairpower.net/GBU-39-SDB-Drop-1.jpg)
And like Stoney said it all depends on what type of fuze was being used. If it was an air-burst, it will basically just flatten everything from the blast, frag and shockwave. If it is a ground burst it moves alot of dirt and makes a nice size hole.
I can't remember exactly, but from my memory from a few years ago, a 500lb bomb made a crater approximately 2 to 4 feet around, and approximately 6-12 inches deep. A 2000 lb bomb made a crater that was approx. 8-10 feet around, and a little over 1 foot deep.
If the above was the case... it must have been a dud...
Here is a video of a 500lb bomb dropped in Fallujah...
500lb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OwVCbqLFBk)
And another one... (about the 2 minute mark it hits) Bye Building (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLOiaxVu8ug&NR)
Just my knowledge of working with them...
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Originally posted by VooWho
I'd Like to have an astroid the size of Texas.
(http://www12.nrk.no/magasin/upunkt/urort/bilder/scaled/82303_main.jpg)
I would counter your asteriod with Bruce Willis
(http://www.moviemantz.com/review_shots/armageddon.jpg)
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Originally posted by Sketch
If the above was the case... it must have been a dud...
I'm not talking about the blast effect at the time of detonation, which is quite large as evidenced by your videos. I'm talking about the crater that was left after the dust settled. I've seen the craters left by 60mm, 81mm mortars and 155mm howitzer rounds. I've watched all the TOW's, Hellfire, 2.75 inch and 5 inch rockets. I've watched high-drag deliveries and the current version of napalm. I watched numerous fixed wing attacks using live bombs of all varieties. If it wasn't either a JDAM variant, cluster munition, or conventional bomb with a delay fuze, I've seen it leave an aircraft and hit a target or dirt. I've even seen "dusters" or dud bombs and their impact points are less disturbed than you'd imagine. I then had the advantage sometime later of actually walking down and looking at the effects. I've stood on the edge of a Mk84 2000lb bomb crater. Sometimes I even had to drive my rig down the dirt road which had been hit with bombs and usually it was just a quick bump under the tires. The detonation is always spectacular, but the crater is not. These were craters where typically the bomb hit flat terrain and the craters are much smaller than what you would think after witnessing the detonation, and pretty close to my dimensions posted earlier. Wish I had taken some pictures...
Basically its a testament to the efficiency of the instaneous fuzes...
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That's some interesting stuff guys, thanks for the replies :)
But I was actually referring to our AH bombs :aok
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I'm not talking about the blast effect at the time of detonation, which is quite large as evidenced by your videos. I'm talking about the crater that was left after the dust settled. I've seen the craters left by 60mm, 81mm mortars and 155mm howitzer rounds. I've watched all the TOW's, Hellfire, 2.75 inch and 5 inch rockets. I've watched high-drag deliveries and the current version of napalm. I watched numerous fixed wing attacks using live bombs of all varieties. If it wasn't either a JDAM variant, cluster munition, or conventional bomb with a delay fuze, I've seen it leave an aircraft and hit a target or dirt. I've even seen "dusters" or dud bombs and their impact points are less disturbed than you'd imagine. I then had the advantage sometime later of actually walking down and looking at the effects. I've stood on the edge of a Mk84 2000lb bomb crater. Sometimes I even had to drive my rig down the dirt road which had been hit with bombs and usually it was just a quick bump under the tires. The detonation is always spectacular, but the crater is not. These were craters where typically the bomb hit flat terrain and the craters are much smaller than what you would think after witnessing the detonation, and pretty close to my dimensions posted earlier. Wish I had taken some pictures...
Basically its a testament to the efficiency of the instaneous fuzes...
I am not saying your wrong Stoney, don't take it that way. But, with a 500lb bomb, either modern time or AH, if it is a ground burst the hole will be bigger that a little speed bumb. The only reason I say this is because I do work with these every day and know whet they are capable of doing. If you work in something similar great and that is cool with me. But like I said, if they are a ground burst, 500lbs of explosives will leave a nice hole.
Frank, I know what yah ment bro, Stoney and I were posting what explosives with bombs will do. From a 50kg egg too a 4,000lb egg, yes the crater holes will be a considerable amount larger and vary in size... :aok
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Originally posted by Sketch
But like I said, if they are a ground burst, 500lbs of explosives will leave a nice hole.
Maybe I misunderstand what you mean when you say ground burst. I know if you place a charge in the ground that's 500lbs, it behaves much differently than a 500lb bomb with an instantaneous fuze.
Anyway, as for WWII craters, here's a picture of Mille airfield (a Japanese field on an island that was bypassed). Great photo of bomb craters. Have no idea what size bombs made these, but it comes from the VMB-613 website, and that was a Marine PBJ squadron (B-25's). Probably a lot of 500 lb bombs as that was a typical load for them.
Picture of a cratered runway (http://www.vmb-613.com/photographs/mille_airstrip.html)
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Well, if we can't have bigger craters, why not bigger explosion animations? Seriouslly, there is a difference between a 250 lb. bomb and a 4,000 lb. bomb!
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Exactly Stoney... I should have made that clear in my first post, and I appologize for that. That photo you posted up is pretty cool. WOuld have hated to been on the ground when all those dropped! :O
I am gonna do some checking and see how much explosive filler was used during the WWII era bombs. But yes we need some better explosions... I always like eye candy! :aok
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Raider you would need Bruce Willis AND Aerosmith to counter the Texas sized asteroid. You can't save the world without a cheesy/lame pop song as the soundtrack.
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Yes they get bigger when the bombs get bigger
Nice pics, looks to be from the ole white sands test area where
i used to serve in the USAF Alamogordo NM.
I think all those WWII bombs were plunger type detonators ?
so ground fused only ?
Bigger plums for the bigger bombs yes its got my vote.
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Originally posted by DLfrmHLL
Yes they get bigger when the bombs get bigger
Nice pics, looks to be from the ole white sands test area where
i used to serve in the USAF Alamogordo NM.
I think all those WWII bombs were plunger type detonators ?
so ground fused only ?
Bigger plums for the bigger bombs yes its got my vote.
I think your right on you post. I know some used the wind-vains (some still do on modern bombs), but they way it goes is when the bomb is dropped the vain needs to spin a certain number of times for the bomb to arm (thus shooting a bomb won't set it off, as so many think), then once it is armed it will go boom. A good example is in the Pearl Harbor movie. The bomb that drops through the deck of the Arizona and the guy is pealing potatoes and the vain stops spinning..... close your eyes it won't hurt as bad. :eek:
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I've seen 500lb, 1000lb, and 2000lb bomb craters that are much smaller than you would think they should be. A large portion of the dust you see in the air doesn't actually come out of the ground as much as its made up of dust from the area surrounding the crater in which the blast travels. I can't remember exactly, but from my memory from a few years ago, a 500lb bomb made a crater approximately 2 to 4 feet around, and approximately 6-12 inches deep. A 2000 lb bomb made a crater that was approx. 8-10 feet around, and a little over 1 foot deep. These were unguided bombs delivered from around a 30 degree dive angle, carried by AV8's, F-18's, F-14's, F-16's, and A-10's. I've not been up close and personal with craters made from bombs dropped from B-52's delivered from a flat profile.
These bombs that you are talking about are detonated above ground, in WWII they didn't bother doing any testing to see if bombs were more effective if they are detonated above ground or on the ground, they wanted to blow the enemy up, their bombs usually hit the the ground with a vengance
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Originally posted by Nemeth
These bombs that you are talking about are detonated above ground, in WWII they didn't bother doing any testing to see if bombs were more effective if they are detonated above ground or on the ground, they wanted to blow the enemy up, their bombs usually hit the the ground with a vengance
OK, I know what you're trying to say here, but I feel I need to point out that an instantaneous fuze is NOT the same as what has been described as an "air burst". An "air burst" fuze uses a radio signal to detonate at a certain height above ground, and in current parlance, is called variable time or VT. As far as I know, there are no VT fuzes for air delivered ordnance--its only an artillery or mortar fuze. An instantaneous fuze actually hits the ground--that's what sets it off--the impact. The key is that the fuze detonates and the explosive filler of the bomb has an extremely short burn that causes an explosion. During Vietnam, they actually put the fuze on a rod that screwed into the bomb to ensure that it detonated above ground, as the fuze contacting the ground starts the chemical reaction that goes "boom". However, an instaneous fuze is screwed into the nose of the bomb and initiates the reaction upon contact with the ground. The reaction is so quick, that most of the explosive force exists above the deck, which keeps most of the blast and frag effects above ground, and hence, makes a small crater. During WWII, there were many experiments with bomb delivery, although mostly in the field as opposed to the clinical type testing shown in Sketch's first photo. These tests were conducted to determine how to maximize the effectiveness of fragmentation bombs by using different delivery techniques. Again, I don't know what types of fuzes they used in WWII, but I do know they had delay fuzes and whatever they considered the "normal" fuzes. Mostly they used delay fuzes to achieve low altitude, high-speed delivery so that the delivering aircraft could escape the blast and fragmentation effects of the bombs. Today, the principles are the same, although without a doubt, the technology is advanced. My point was to show that an "instantaneous" fuze used today on the U.S. inventory of conventionally delivered munitions make small craters compared to what you see when they detonate, even though the fuze actually makes contact with the ground before the bomb detonates. These craters are much smaller than what you would think. How they compare to WWII fuzing, I have no idea but if they worked along the same principles, there may not be as much of a crater as you would think. When I say I've seen many deliveries of current munitions, I'm speaking on order of hundreds to low thousands, and feel extremely confident in my presentation so far. I even spoke with an engineer that worked for the RAND Corporation about the development of the JDAM guidance kits (he was my roommates brother and a chemical engineer) and again, make these statements with some confidence. I know when you witness the detonation and see the dust and debris kicked up by these detonations, it is intuitive to think the crater would be large, but I'm telling you, they are not, unless fuzed to explode after they have contacted the ground, and penetrated the ground to some depth.
EDIT: Looked on FAS.org and there is an airburst fuze for the Mk80 series of bombs. Neither airbust nor delay fuzes were authorized for indirect fire (artillery or mortars) or air delivered ordnance where I worked, so none of the craters I saw were either air burst, or delay.