Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: frank3 on February 21, 2007, 02:16:39 PM

Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 21, 2007, 02:16:39 PM
The defensive MG's on the German planes usually were magazine armed (I believe there were about 150 rounds in each magazine)

How about a small reload time when one magazine runs out?

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/68_1172089225_xg1530-1.jpg)
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: titanic3 on February 21, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
we already have jeeps,M3, and lvt. we dun really need it, but i'll try it
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: VooWho on February 21, 2007, 03:20:01 PM
GVs can't supply planes in the air or on the ground.

Frank this would be a great Idea. Also did the Il-2 tail gun carry only (I think it was) 250 rounds? Kinda low.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: titanic3 on February 21, 2007, 08:53:38 PM
OOoooohhh planes.... i was reading fast and thought it said tanks. srry ppl
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 22, 2007, 08:10:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by VooWho
Frank this would be a great Idea. Also did the Il-2 tail gun carry only (I think it was) 250 rounds? Kinda low.


I'm not sure, but I believe the MG was belt-fed? I think they had a single belt attached, nothing more (I could very well be wrong thoug :) )
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Denholm on February 22, 2007, 08:37:44 AM
Well, if this gets passed I want the same thing for the A6M's MGs
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 22, 2007, 08:47:22 AM
And don't forget the MG's on the B5N and D3A were magazine-fed as well (with drums I believe)
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Denholm on February 22, 2007, 09:41:43 AM
Well, I only recall the A6M, since I've rarely flown the D3A or the B5N.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Tails on February 22, 2007, 10:27:22 AM
Front cannons on the Bf-110C were magazine fed as well. The tail gunner had double duty as loader (maybe triple duty as radio opperator. Cant remember).
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 22, 2007, 10:53:31 AM
Tails is right, the 110 was, in fact, designed for a 3-man crew but they figured 2 could do the same job.

I believe the newer versions of the 110 had rearguns that were belt-fed?
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: DblTrubl on February 22, 2007, 02:07:52 PM
The A6M's cowl mounted type 97s were belt fed. The actions were accessible from the pilots seat but I don't think it would be practical to reload them while in flight.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 22, 2007, 02:26:33 PM
Note that I am talking about defensive armament, not offensive ;)
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Krusty on February 22, 2007, 02:36:42 PM
110s guns were always belt fed. The 110G-4s with Schrage Muzak had 60-round MG/FF drums for the upward firing guns. The gunner was sitting right there, so he'd re-load them. They only came with 1 extra reload per gun (2 guns). That's not the nose guns.


As for the 110 being designed for 3 men... I'm not sure where you get that. I've never heard that. The idea I've read was the "Zorstorer" plane was always meant to have a pilot and a rear gunner (at the time they thought it would actually protect the aircraft).

EDIT: when they switched from a single MG17 to the twin setup ("Z"-something) they were belt fed. They had to be, because they were side by side and the magazines wouldn't fit.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 22, 2007, 02:47:24 PM
Aah yes, the Z (MG181?) zwilling is what I meant :)

About the 110 being a 3 seater, I read that somewhere, I'll have to re-check my sources though
(But the large cockpit glazing fit for 3 men must mean something!)
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Krusty on February 22, 2007, 05:01:21 PM
Just looked it up. It's called the MG 81Z, and some were belt fed and some were drum fed (supposedly drum fed was more common, but I don't have a photo/diagram showing how a drum fit over both guns).
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: hubsonfire on February 22, 2007, 05:42:27 PM
I think I've seen a reference to 3 man crews for the 110s in the nightfighter role, with the 3rd guy being the radar op. Anyway, back on topic.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Krusty on February 22, 2007, 06:30:37 PM
In the night fighter role the tail gunner operated the radar. He didn't have a back on his seat. When he needed to he just turned around and faced forward. I've built a fairly detailed model of the 110G-4 night fighter and there's not enough room for a third person, trust me.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Lusche on February 22, 2007, 06:45:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
In the night fighter role the tail gunner operated the radar. He didn't have a back on his seat. When he needed to he just turned around and faced forward. I've built a fairly detailed model of the 110G-4 night fighter and there's not enough room for a third person, trust me.


I will try to dig up additional info. I know that nightfighter ace Wolfgang Schnaufer did fly almost exclusively Bf110. And for the most time of the war, he was accompanied by his Bordfunker (=radioman) Fritz Rumplehardt and his Bordschütze (=gunner) Wilhelm Gänsler, both of them eventually decorated with the Ritterkreuz. That would make three...


EDIT:

All my book credit the 110 radar equipped night-fighter versions with 3 crewmembers. But as we know, sometimes they just copy each other, so I googled just a bit and found this:


"One night, after detecting an unsuspecting Lancaster in the bomber stream, into which he (Martin Drewes) mixed up thanks to Erich Handke (his excellent Bordfunker, or radar-operator, Ritterkreuzträger, or Knight's Cross bearer, in German), he proceed to make the conventional Schräge Musik attack, right from below, spreading the these guns fire from the inboard left engine till the starboard one ((...) The bomber disintegrated, and took Drewes and its crew with it, through an incredible amount of debris, which dilacerated the Bf-110G-4 (G9+MD)...they all had to jump immediately for their lives from the plane's blazing hulk!!! One schrapnel hit the gunner's (Oberfeldwebel Petz) wristwatch, stopping it right at the moment of the explosion: 01:19hs..."

(Taken from this site (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/drewesmb_1.htm) )

Once again, 3 crewmembers in a Bf 110.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Krusty on February 22, 2007, 10:19:56 PM
Very strange, as there are only 2 seats, and only 2 crew members given to almost every model kit out there.

Perhaps these were luxuries for high-ranking officers or high ace pilots?
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Kweassa on February 23, 2007, 12:30:37 AM
Quote
Perhaps these were luxuries for high-ranking officers or high ace pilots?


 Perhaps you don't know that much about 110s as you might like to think.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Krusty on February 23, 2007, 12:48:53 AM
The normal 110s were 2-man setups. The 3-man setup is rather odd, so my first guess is to think "maybe that's one for special cases, like aces or officers".

Never said I knew that much about 110s. Said from what I've read, and from what I do know, 2-men was the norm, even for the G-4 night fighter.
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Lusche on February 23, 2007, 03:14:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Very strange, as there are only 2 seats, and only 2 crew members given to almost every model kit out there.

Perhaps these were luxuries for high-ranking officers or high ace pilots?


That sounds rubbish to me. If there was no space for 3 crew members, the Luftwaffe sure would not punish only it's aces with squeezing an additional crewmember in. I don`t think they would accept sitting the radar operator sitting on their lap ;)

I would rather say the model kits are flawed - and that would be nothing new....
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: frank3 on February 23, 2007, 04:44:14 AM
Well, I said the Bf-110 was originally designed for a 3-man crew, I didn't say it was the norm ;)
I think the idea of having 3 crewmembers was very soon discarded (perhaps even before mass-production) so the models you're making might be right
Title: German rear-guns reloading
Post by: Lusche on February 23, 2007, 07:09:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
Well, I said the Bf-110 was originally designed for a 3-man crew, I didn't say it was the norm ;)
I think the idea of having 3 crewmembers was very soon discarded (perhaps even before mass-production) so the models you're making might be right


Radar equipped nightfighters defenitely carried 3 crew members.