Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on February 25, 2007, 07:03:38 AM
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Three Arab states in the Persian Gulf would be willing to allow the Israel Air force to enter their airspace in order to reach Iran in case of an attack on its nuclear facilities, the Kuwaiti newspaper Al-Siyasa reported on Sunday.
link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/830309.html)
I guess Iran got some arabs really worried.
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Wow. I'd say.
Off topic but
Question I've been wanting to ask you.
A link on that page "Birthright Isreal" reminded me of it.
One of the main areas I get work in is a large predominantly Jewish area
Sometime ago I was at someones house and spotted a newsletter, Well was more like a small newspaper really that was all about Jewish issues,Isreal etc.
One of the articles in there was about American Jews immigrating to Isreal.
Anyway the point of the entire article was that it said . and I will try and quote as exactly as I canremember "It should be the goal of all American Jews to one day immigrate to Isreal"
Now it wasnt talking about just visiting Isreal. But in moving there outright.
Just curious how your average Isreali would feel about that.
Woudl they be wanted or even welcomed? Or is it more like
"We appreciate your good intentions. but please,stay where you are"?
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see what happens when a dangerous sociopathic dictator gets ejected from his seat of power? the other sociopaths sit up and take notice. looks like we may see a repeat of the 1981 israeli stike on saddam hussein's powerplant.
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Israel needs a certain amount of Immigrants a year to maintain it's population. As long as you do your mandatory time in the military I think they would take anyone who supports their right to exist. I could be wrong about this and would like to hear more from an Israeli.
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Think about the strategy here, if they allow Iran and Israel to go at it, the surrounding arab states can not only sit back and watch Israel get trounced, but raise the price of crude oil due to a war going on. Brilliant!
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Israel would decimate Iran if they took off their kit gloves. Israel has enough Nukes to total every Muslim country on the face of this planet. But Israel is way to nice to their enemies. One day though they might go back to the old ways and kill everything...women, children, goats, sheep, etc, like God had told them to. The world needs to fear if the Israelis regain that mindset.
P.S. I don't worry about Israel because in the end they will prevail.
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Would anyone care to make a wager? Everyone on this board whined and moaned when the F-14 was taken out of service from the USN. I bet if Israel mounts an attack on Iran, Irans entire F-14 fleet will be destroyed without downing a single Israeli aircraft (F-15 or F-16).
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Turkey will not repeat the mistake it made in 2003, when it refused to open its airspace to U.S. Air Force overflights en route to attacking Iraq.
:D :aok :rofl
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Would anyone care to make a wager? Everyone on this board whined and moaned when the F-14 was taken out of service from the USN. I bet if Israel mounts an attack on Iran, Irans entire F-14 fleet will be destroyed without downing a single Israeli aircraft (F-15 or F-16).
I'm guessing the entire F-14 fleet will be left on the ground. How long has it been since they could even fire a missile?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Would anyone care to make a wager? Everyone on this board whined and moaned when the F-14 was taken out of service from the USN. I bet if Israel mounts an attack on Iran, Irans entire F-14 fleet will be destroyed without downing a single Israeli aircraft (F-15 or F-16).
If that happens, it won't be the fault of the F-14.
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I mean, if the F-14 is such a good plane, a little + or - in pilot training and experience wont hurt it.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I mean, if the F-14 is such a good plane, a little + or - in pilot training and experience wont hurt it.
wow a nearly flawless troll hijack in one swoop.
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Some sunnis want to help nuke some *****es, there's a shocker
ok sheeeeytes, is that better?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Think about the strategy here, if they allow Iran and Israel to go at it, the surrounding arab states can not only sit back and watch Israel get trounced, but raise the price of crude oil due to a war going on. Brilliant!
Interesting. You think Israel would take an bellybutton whipping at the hands of Iran?
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This has been done before. We already have an elite force trained in such operation. Just need to dust off the books for Operation Sleepy Weasel and head on in.
(http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/cover_art1/hotshots.jpg)
(http://services.windowsmedia.com/dvdcover/cov150/drt200/t208/t20834kvmat.jpg)
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Woudl they be wanted or even welcomed? Or is it more like
"We appreciate your good intentions. but please,stay where you are"?
We don`t mind them coming here. They come with lot more money than the average immigrant,wich is good for the country.
OTOH most americans come for a religious reason,and lot of the west bank settlers,the gun toting, arab school kid beating, oil tree cutting nutcases are americans. Those, I wouldn`t mind if they had stayed home, and enjoyed their rights to firearms where they were born.
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Now it wasnt talking about just visiting Isreal. But in moving there outright.
Just curious how your average Isreali would feel about that.
Woudl they be wanted or even welcomed? Or is it more like
"We appreciate your good intentions. but please,stay where you are"?
The Israeli government actively encourages Jews from around the world to immigrate to Israel (google "aliyah" if you are interested). This isn't new, or just backed by one faction in Israel, it's one of the fundamental aims of the state.
Israel needs a certain amount of Immigrants a year to maintain it's population. As long as you do your mandatory time in the military I think they would take anyone who supports their right to exist.
If you are Jewish, you are guaranteed the right to live in Israel. If you aren't, it's fairly difficult to get Israeli citizenship.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Israel needs a certain amount of Immigrants a year to maintain it's population.
Why?
Are they dieing off faster then they are being born?
If they are they will be the only nation in recent memory that has a declining population size
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Caligula, Are you talking about those suppose Christians that have this obsession with the end-times? Please do not confuse them with those of us who realize that not even Jesus knows when that is coming, only the Creator does. Those people feel they know more then Jesus and I do not consider them to be true Christians.
I do not feel as a Christian that we should force upon the Jews our beliefs since they are God's children and that it is not our duty to judge them, but support them no matter what they do. When the time comes God will make the conversion without our help.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
We don`t mind them coming here. They come with lot more money than the average immigrant,wich is good for the country.
OTOH most americans come for a religious reason,and lot of the west bank settlers,the gun toting, arab school kid beating, oil tree cutting nutcases are americans. Those, I wouldn`t mind if they had stayed home, and enjoyed their rights to firearms where they were born.
Pretty much confirms what I heard someone who immigrated here from Isreal say too.
She also said that Ireali Jews were far less religion oriented then American Jews.
That In Israel the natural born Jewish population is more like the American Christian population in the USA. Where unless your in the Bible belt. People tend to be more spiritual then religious diehards.
Meaning they believe. But they arent all that gung ho about it and attending services each and every week and so forth.
Whereas American Jews are all about being Jewish. Israeli Jews are more about being Israeli. If yanno what I mean.
She also said that Hasidic Jews are often looked down on there as they tend to not want to work and contribute but rather milk the system.
Now I cant say that is my opinion. Inasmuch as I dont know. I cant very well have one. And it isn't intended as a slight of any kind.
I am just repeating what I was told and curious as to how accurate that is
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Russia has a severe problem with their population, so much so that Putin put out a worldwide calling for people to move there.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4125072.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline
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you got it right drediock
sometimes i hear israel being called a theocracy..bs. u can go out and eat all the pork u want, on shabbat,if that is what pleases u. had it been a theocracy,it wouldn`t work that way.
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xargos
i didn`t talk about christians
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rgr that. The way you stated it made me think that was what you were talking about. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Israel would decimate Iran if they took off their kit gloves. Israel has enough Nukes to total every Muslim country on the face of this planet. But Israel is way to nice to their enemies. One day though they might go back to the old ways and kill everything...women, children, goats, sheep, etc, like God had told them to. The world needs to fear if the Israelis regain that mindset.
P.S. I don't worry about Israel because in the end they will prevail.
Wow, the over-reaching of these statements are only matched by their lack of supporting evidence.
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Just remember, in regards to Israel and its citizens...
Last summer, when Hezbollah was chucking rockets into Israel, a lot of the people being hit weren't Jews. Israel isn't solely Jewish, a lot of those hit/wounded/hurt were "fellow" Arabs.
Israel took delivery of new F-16I's (conformal fuel tanks) in the last few years. I'd think they are well within range to hit Iran if needed to.
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Originally posted by majic
I'm guessing the entire F-14 fleet will be left on the ground. How long has it been since they could even fire a missile?
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml
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"Turkey will not repeat the mistake it made in 2003, when it refused to open its airspace to U.S. Air Force overflights en route to attacking Iraq."
Quick question on this. When Turkey said no and US bombers flew over, did the Turks send up there fighters and then get owned by U.S. fighters?
If I am wrong could someone tell me what mistake they did? I forget.
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Originally posted by Slash27
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml
Ahh. Thanks for the links. I had heard that rumor a few times and somehow took it as fact. Probably heard it on the history channel. ;)
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Originally posted by majic
Ahh. Thanks for the links. I had heard that rumor a few times and somehow took it as fact. Probably heard it on the history channel. ;)
I always heard they were sold with some secret "black box" and were rendered useless when the wackos took over.:D
I ran across a magazine not long ago that went in to alot of detail on Iranian F-14s and their development there. Was very intresting and an eye opener, yet I didnt buy it.:huh
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Originally posted by VooWho
"Turkey will not repeat the mistake it made in 2003, when it refused to open its airspace to U.S. Air Force overflights en route to attacking Iraq."
Quick question on this. When Turkey said no and US bombers flew over, did the Turks send up there fighters and then get owned by U.S. fighters?
If I am wrong could someone tell me what mistake they did? I forget.
I think it was more in the manner of finding new folks to send aid to.
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Originally posted by Rino
I think it was more in the manner of finding new folks to send aid to.
Hardly. The US didn't have a trade deficit with Turkey until after 2002. If anything, the US government might have threatened to dump even more US dollars on Turkey.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4890.html
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Originally posted by LePaul
Israel took delivery of new F-16I's (conformal fuel tanks) in the last few years. I'd think they are well within range to hit Iran if needed to.
Not really.
The whole Israeli strike on Iran is complete BS, spread either by ignorants or worse - people with an agenda trying to stir things up. Israel has no ability to execute an effective bombing campaign over Iran. One surgical strike, yes, by stretching the planes and pilots ability to the max it is possible. Unlike the old Iraqi example, this time it will not be effective. Unless the only purpose is to drag the conflict away from the no good UN and make it an all out war, which America will fight by the way - not Israel.
If anyone has any real ability to strike Iran it is the US with its forces in Saudi Arabia and Iraq (and the carrier force). Wishing that Israel will do the strike is asking for someone else to take out the trash. It will be perfect for the Europeans though, so they can keep their conscience clean and get to condemn Israel again.
I hate those retard "journalists" that keep feeding this troll. It is dangerous and stupid.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Anyway the point of the entire article was that it said . and I will try and quote as exactly as I canremember "It should be the goal of all American Jews to one day immigrate to Isreal"
Now it wasnt talking about just visiting Isreal. But in moving there outright.
Just curious how your average Isreali would feel about that.
Woudl they be wanted or even welcomed? Or is it more like
"We appreciate your good intentions. but please,stay where you are"?
The entire Zionist idea is based on two things: A Jew is nationality and Jews need a state (and regardless of the "Zion" in the name, the location is of less importance). The immigration to Israel is one of the highest ideals of the Zionist movement.
Therefore, a Jew that chooses to leave abroad is not a Zionist. Other ideologies consider this as "putting all the eggs in one basket" and a danger to Jewish survival btw. Some religious groups consider the Israeli state as a sin and refuse to deal with it. A lot of non-Israeli Jews support the state, not out of "Zionism" but more out of personal interests or just sympathy. This is the source of what you stated:
Whereas American Jews are all about being Jewish. Israeli Jews are more about being Israeli. If yanno what I mean.
If you are a Zionist that a Jew is a nationality for you. If you are not (as the American Jews) then a Jew is a religion for you.
Israel encourage Jewish immigration by giving significant social and economic aid to the immigrants. In the past it was related to the Zionist ideology that all Jews should live in Israel, but today it is more of a need to sustain the Jewish majority vs. the rapidly multiplying Palestinians. The "diaspora" sources for immigration are pretty much depleted after the Russian immigration in the 90s and many call for a revision of the out-dated immigration laws.
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Originally posted by Slash27
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml
Yes. Pretty ridiculous to think that they could build nuclear weapons, and at the same time couldn't keep a few aircraft operational. Takes a lot more to build a nuke than to reverse engineer and manufacture aircraft parts.
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Originally posted by mora
Yes. Pretty ridiculous to think that they could build nuclear weapons, and at the same time couldn't keep a few aircraft operational. Takes a lot more to build a nuke than to reverse engineer and manufacture aircraft parts.
Why build when you can buy?:D
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I think bikini clad tight body Israeli women on the beach holding Uzi's are HOT!!!
:p
Mac
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Agree with the jist of your post Bozon, but I think it is important for the Israelis to remind Iran of two facts:
#1 Their AF is capable or reaching Iran.
#2 They have nuclear weapons.
Just for deterrence purposes. In case the Iranians are getting too deluded into thinking the IAF could not arrive if the need was there.
A conventional IAF attack would not likely be a scenario they would contemplate though, I agree, for all the reasons stated in other posts.
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Originally posted by AWMac
I think bikini clad tight body Israeli women on the beach holding Uzi's are HOT!!!
:p
Mac
Could you post a pic please? :aok
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Originally posted by Slash27
I always heard they were sold with some secret "black box" and were rendered useless when the wackos took over.:D
I ran across a magazine not long ago that went in to alot of detail on Iranian F-14s and their development there. Was very intresting and an eye opener, yet I didnt buy it.:huh
Pfffft. A lot of misinformation about the Iranian F-14s. The F-14s were never grounded and the sabotage by American engineers was limited to just 18 AIM-54 missiled, in one base only, and those damaged were repaired.
The latest research gives the Iranian F-14s over one hundred kills over the Iraqi Air Force
"It is estimated that during the Iran-Iraq war 1980-1988, from reports from pilots on both sides, guncamera/TISEO films, examination of wreckage, local and foreign intelligence and other sources, that on total the IRIAF F-14As scored 130 confirmed and 23 probable aerial victories. Iran launched possibly 70 to 90 AIM-54A missiles, and 60-70 of those scored. "
Some examples of Iranian F-14s in combat:
* The first aerial victory by an F-14 happened on September 7, 1980. Five Iraqi Mil Mi-24|Mi-25 'Hind' attack helicopters of 1st Combat Transport Hecopter Squaron attacked Iranian border posts in the Zain al-Waws region. Two F-14As were vectored into intercept. The pilot shot down one Mi-25 helicopter by cannonfire, after two Sidewinder missiles failed to hit the helicopter.
* The first combat use of AIM-54 missile by an F-14 ever happened on September 13, 1980, when Major Ata'ie shot down an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23|MiG-23 'Flogger' with a Phoenix missile.
* On September 22 1980 Iranian F-14s were vectored against fast moving contact, approaching Khark oil terminals at Mach 3. The MiG-25 was shot down by an AIM-54. This was the first confirmed kill by F-14 against MiG-25s.
* On same day, another MiG-25RB was shot down on extremely hard conditions. The MiG-25 was approaching fast and was already within 113 km, yet the F-14 RIO was unable to acquire the target. A positive lock on was made on distance of only 70 km, almost inside the minimum range . A single AIM-54 was launched in snap-up engagement mode at 64 km. The missile worked perfectly and the MiG was downed.
* On September 22 two Iranian F-14A led by Capt. Ali Azimi detected two MiG-23s escorting a Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21|MiG-21RF 'Fishbed-J'. The Tomcats shot down the MiG-21 with an AIM-54.
* On September 24 the Iranian F-14As participated in several aerial combats against Iraqi fighter jets. The F-14s claimed kills against Iraqi MiG-21s, MiG-23s and Sukhoi Su-17|Su-20/22 'Fitter's.
* On 2nd December 1980 one of the closest range shootdowns by AIM-54 occurred. Captain F. Dehghan of 8nd TFS was flying on patrol covering Khark Island oil teminals, when number of approaching bogies were detected. Lock-on was attained only from a distance of 10 miles, too close to the minimum range of the missile. The F-14 had to use the Phoenix, though, as otherwise the plane would have been too heavy for dogfighting. The Phoenix was launched on short-range mode and it managed to hit a MiG-21.
* At 20th November 1982 two Iraqi generals boarded a Mi-8 helicopter to visit the front lines. The Mi-8 was escorted by two other Mi-8s, Mi-25, four MiG-21s and four MiG-23s, that were replaced by additional fighters when they ran low on fuel. The formation was spotted by two Iranian Tomcats escorting IRIAF KC-707 tanker, which was waiting for Iranian F-4 strike to refuel. The F-14s were flying race-track pattern, scanning over the front line with their AWG-9 radar. Captain Khosrodad spotted a large number of targets approaching slowly from west, already within AIM-54 range. Khosrodad ordered his wingman to keep with the tanker and attacked, first firing two AIM-54s, then two AIM-7E-4s some 10 seconds later. According to Iraqi reports, one MiG-21 and two MiG-23s were shot down within a minute, forcing the Iraqi generals to abandon their mission.
* On 20th February 1987 an F-4 lured Iraqi strike force into a trap, which was snapped by two F-14s of 81st TFS. A AIM-54 was launched at very long range, hitting the lead Mirage flown by IrAF Brig. General Hekmat Abdul-Qadr. The Iranian listening posts recorded the leader of the accompanying Su-22 flight scream" F-Arba-Ashara! Yalla! Yalla!", with the seven remaining fighters turning and feeing. In English the leader had called "F-14! Run! Run!"
* During late 1987 Soviet Union supplied Iraq with MiG-25BM "Wild Weasel" aircraft. The planes tested the ECM systems against Iranian Tomcats and attacked Iranian targets with new anti-radar weapons. The MiG-25BMs proved they could operate with impunity at up to 69 000 ft, until on the night of 11th November a MiG-25BM was intercepted by an F-14. The Tomcat fired a single AIM-54 in Home-On-Mode. The missile guided flawlessly but failed to detonate. Yet, the missile clipped the MiG-25's fin and forced the pilot to bail out.
* During March 1988 Iraq launched a major attack against Iranian oil exports. On 19th March, at 0100, the first wave of Iraqi Tu-22B heavy bombers and Mirages, attacked Khark island and the tankers. Half an hour later second wave arrived without losses. The Iranian F-14s had arrived on scene for the third wave, though. The US Navy warships patrolling on the area recorded several AIM-54 launches, with at least one Tu-22B bomber and a MiG-25RB being destroyed. According to US Navy, it is probable that other Iraqi bombers were shot down as well.
* During the ending phase of Iran-Iraq war a mini war developed between the Iraqi Mirane F1 EQ-5/6 units and the Iranian F-14s between February until July 1988. The F1 pilots hunted the Tomcats aggressively and attacked the Iranians at any occasion. The F1EQ-6s were equipped with good EMC systems, and the Iraqi pilots could deny the F-14s from using their AIM-54 missiles. For example on 19th July 1988 four Mirages attacked two F-14s and downed both, suffering no losses.
Also important piece of information is that the famous Israeli attack against Iraqi nuclear reactor was made with Iranian intelligence. IriAF had already made two previous attacks at the reactor site and supplied Israelis with targeting information, recon photos and all the intelligence Israelis needed to have on their attack.
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That's a very interesting history of the Persian Cats:aok
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Also the F-14-pilot with the most air-to-air-kills is not an american but an iranian.
The iranian F-14 pilot Zandi shot down 9 (according US-analysis) to 12 (according iranian sources) iraqi planes.
He survived the 8 year war against the arabs and died later in an accident in Iran.
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Originally posted by babek-
Also the F-14-pilot with the most air-to-air-kills is not an american but an iranian.
The iranian F-14 pilot Zandi shot down 9 (according US-analysis) to 12 (according iranian sources) iraqi planes.
He survived the 8 year war against the arabs and died later in an accident in Iran.
Only because of more "targets of opportunity". ;)
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Yes - and because he fought 8 long years while US pilots are taken out earlier from combat.
He was a true iranian hero - he didnt liked the mullahs but fought bitterly against the arab invaders. Often he had problems with his superiors because of his anti-mullah position.
May he RIP.
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us israelis don`t like the mullahs either.
would that mean we have something in common?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
us israelis don`t like the mullahs either.
would that mean we have something in common?
Something? Much more than only "something".
But it should be also clear that in the moment Iran is attacked by a foreign nation, the iranians will end their inner political fighting and support the actual regime.
The same happened when Saddam and his arab hordes tried to invade Iran.
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Is it true that the temporary head of state in Israel is a Muslim?
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wouldn`t it be wise to think about what is the goal of that foreign nation?
coz as it stands right now,it is the iranians treatening israel openly with mass murder.
basically what you are saying,it was the right thing to do for germans to fight to the last kid against the allies,defending their totally f*ucked up regime...
in a 1000 years it won`t make sense to me.
and while we`re at it,why don`t they fight the mullahs while it`s not too late?
they`re closer to being nuked at this point,than anybody else on this planet.
can`t anyone see it over there?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Is it true that the temporary head of state in Israel is a Muslim?
i haven`t heard of that,but a the first ever arab israeli minister was put in office just recently as science minister.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
wouldn`t it be wise to think about what is the goal of that foreign nation?
Which nation do you mean? USA?
It would be another point of view if the Iraq war has not happened.
But now the iranians saw the difference between the official goals of the foreign country USA (democraty, human rights, peace, security, justice, wealth, at least stable living conditions) and the real effects (chaos at the brink of a civil war, ethnical and religious killings, suicide bombings every day).
As Mr. Putin said to Mr. Bush in 2006 in a conference "We dont want the kind of democracy as we see actually in Iraq".
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
coz as it stands right now,it is the iranians treatening israel openly with mass murder.
Give me a quote, where a member of the Council of the Guardians said that Iran would attack Israel and mass murder the people living there. A clear quote and not an interpretated "translation" of western propaganda.
I can understand that for you israel is the centre of the world but Iran has other much more dangerous enemies and Israel is really not so important.
1st place are the sunnite arabs and their sunnite terrorgroups - like Taliban and Al Kaida. They define the iranians as subhumans who have to be killed - very much like Hitler said about homoxeuals, jews, gipsies and communists in the Nazi-time. Just read some statements of this creature Al Zarkawi about how to eliminate all shi ites, because they are subhumans who have no right to live.
Then also the sunnite Pakistan, which is a direct neighbor of Iran and not only has nukes but also an instable government. Its the main supporter of the Talibans and responsible for the fact that they are getting stronger again in the pashtuni provinces in Afghanistan.
The last thing Iran would do is attacking Israel with military force. Israel is very useful for Iran, because it keeps the arabs busy. If Israel will be eliminated Iran would have to face the arabs alone.
Then to your question:
"and while we`re at it,why don`t they fight the mullahs while it`s not too late?"
Unlike Israel or the arab countries Iran was not created after WW1 or WW2. Iran is an 2500 year old country. It never has been a colony like the arabs after WW1. Yes - it was conquered some times during its rich history - for example by Alexander the Macedon, the Arabs, the Mongols - but it never stopped to exist. In all this time structures of families have developed. These old structures were ruling Iran and are ruling Iran still until today.
And the main interest is to gain power and become more rich and not to conquer or destroy foreign territory or people.
And its not so easy to say "Fight THE mullahs" because there are not THE mullahs.
Iran is ruled by families, many of them being influential no matter who ruled Iran - the Shahs of the Quadjars, the pahlevis or the mullahregime.
Ahmadinedjad, who comes from a poor family tried to place members of his family in important positions, but he failed in the last elections in 2006. His innerpolitical power in Iran is breaking apart.
If there is no stabilizing effect - like a foreign attack - he will fail soon.
One last thing - some people seem to forget easily:
Iran has also a tradition in trying to create a democracy by its own. During WW1 the Iranians created a parliament.
And in the 50ties a great iranian nearly managed to bring Iran to Democracy.
Prime Minister Mossadegh, a descendant of the old Quadjar dynasty which Shahs ruled Iran for centuries, deposed the Pahlevi Shah Reza and sent him to italian exile. It was an unbloody revolution.
Instead of declaring him as a new Shah (which he could easily, because of he was a member of the Quadjar-line) or a dictator he tried to make a democracy.
Check per google for the keyword "Operation Ajax" who destroyed the iranian democracy.
So the iranians of today really wish that Iran finally becomes a democracy. But a democracy made by iranians in Iran and not bombed by foreigners and installed by a puppet regime.
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i accept your points to some degree.
i don`t and won`t even pretend to know or understand iranian history or way of thinking of iranians. all i can say: when the pres of iran talks about wiping israel off the map,it gets me nervous. they say the holocaust is a mith, and hold conferences to prove it never happened,or not in the scale pictured. i grew up hearing stories about it, not from tv or books, but from my own grandparents and other relatives that survived it. i refuse to believe they lied to me, because they are part of some shady conspiracy controlled by the elders of zion.so the current iranian stand on the matter deeply offends me.
i say if iran wanted to defend herself from radical sunni aggression,they could find allies in the west,or even israel, instead of doing what they are doing now.
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1. No one doubts that the Nazis killed millions of humans in their concentration camps, only because they were homosexuals, jews, gipsies or communists. And not only the german nazis. Many other nations in the world eagerly supported them. Directly - by delivering jews to them or indirectly by supporting their racist ideas.
Any discussion if 6 million or 2 million or 10 million were killed is ridiculous, because it remains a dark chapter in history of mankind.
And still today we see this dark racism when neo-nazi idiots run around.
2. This myth-thing.
The iranian word was translated as "myth" in western media.
Ahmadinedjad said that in some countries in Europe the Holocaust was put on a level of [and now you can translate the word also as] holy thing and any questioning or discussion about it can bring you into jail.
As much as I dont like his style he is right in this point. In Germany there are strict laws which put the people in jail (while in USA some funny white racist idiots are running in self made Nazi uniforms).
But even Ahmadinedjad has no doubt about the Holocaust. His argumentation is another one. I read his letters written to Bus and Merkel.
First he put on the question if there was a Holocaust. Then, after getting the confirmation, that such a crime happened, he demands that those who commited the crime should be punished.
And so he finish this "logic" with "When the germans and europeans have commited this crime they have to give land to jews and not the arabs in palestine."
This seems to be nonsense but for teh arabs this is great to hear. So he can manipulate the arab fanatics to make their stupid wars. And as long the arabs are fighting each other Iran is save.
And to make this clear: I agree that Ahmadinedjad is an idiot - but he is our idiot. We are not the only country which has to deal with an idiotic president :)
3. Irans has a deep mistrust to their neighbors and so called allies.
That has also historical reasons. There was too much betrayal in the past. In both World Wars Iran declared itself neutral and was finally attacked and invaded by so called friends.
When they managed to kick out the Shah in an unbloody revolution again their friends betrayed them, destroying the iranian democracy, installing the terrorregime of the Shah and creating the Gestapo-like imperial secret police - the SAVAK.
The islamic revolution was not done by some religious fanatics but by desperate people who wanted to end the terror of the Shah and his SAVAK. They finally ended in the next terror regime - one which was worser than the Shah terror. Thats also one reason why this time there is no revolution in Iran. Because now they want to know what comes after kicking off the actual terror regime.
Also I dont see anything useful in the UN and its declarations or demands. The same UN has accepted during Iran-Iraq-War that Saddam used gas weapons on iranian soldiers and iranian cities and by the Veto of some Veto-nations (defining themself as the civilized world) any declarion against (in these days) the good Iraq was prevented.
130.000 iranian soldiers died because of the gas. And many iranians still suffer today because they were so unlucky to survive the gas attacks.
You mentioned that you grew up hearing about the crimes of Nazis who killed your people by gas. Believe me, especially after the iranian experience of the civilized world in the question how to act when Iran was under massive gas attacks I can understand that very good.
You feel nerveous about Ahmadinedjad. So do I. But even if he would have nuclear missiles he wouldnt have the power to give an attack order. Thats another fact ignored in western media. The president of Iran has not the real power. Chatami - who wanted to make some liberal reforms - was not allowed to and Ahmadinedjad also not. The real power comes from the Council of the Guardians and although they are made of religious people they are nothing else than greedy corrupt capitalists.
And yes - normally I would agree that there are 3 nations in the region which should be allies: The non-arabic Turkey, Israel and Iran. Such a game was played already in the past. During the arab wars against Israel it was iran who delivered oil to Israel. And during Iran Iraq war it was Israel which delivered bitterly needed spare parts to Iran - especially for the 250 F-4E Phantom Iran once had. That was essential for the iranian warfare to kick out the arab invaders from iranian territory.
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I think I learned a lot today
babek - caligula
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babek, the truth doesn't play out well when it comes to iran here.
the mainstream media avoids it like the plague as well, it would be rather hard to sell viagra with all the chicken-hawks falling from the sky due to patriotic embolisms.
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I can see any attack by Israel vs Iran ending up just like Israels failed attack on Lebanon (ooooh sorry Hezbollah)..... a total mess, making it worse than before.
And people say USA's foreign policy is bad... well Israel blows up all its neighbors and wonders why its in such a mess...hmmm
Its about time that someone stood up to US and its Puppet Israel aggression.
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Originally posted by Torque
it would be rather hard to sell viagra with all the chicken-hawks falling from the sky due to patriotic embolisms.
will the rain hurt the rhubarb? not if it's in the can.