Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pei on February 27, 2007, 03:13:14 AM
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to Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6396001.stm)
There are rumours of a Spring offensive already.
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My brother is headed there for 6 months in March. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them went around that time too.
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We are sending more too.
There is a rumor that the Taliban has a huge number of fairly well trained and equipped fighters waiting for the snow to melt. It is supposed to be a bloodbath.
Hope the rumors are false this time.
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That's because it is a good war against bad muslims not a bad war against good muslims like iraq..
They are not backward and beyond hope like the iraqui people and.. the real terrorists are hidden there...
and it needs to be done because.. well... because ah.. you know.
lazs
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They are not backward and beyond hope...
I understand you are somewhat an expert at that as well as muslim demography? wow.
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hope we deplete our inventory of MOAB's before anyone is within firearms range ...
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saint.. I do not profess to be an expert.. I have been told that it is hopeless in iraq because the people are so backward... I, was naive enough to believe that anyone would want freedom in their lives... but.. that is not what I have been told...
I have to assume that since the same people that told me that are now telling me that they feel that the afghans are worth fighting for....
lazs
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I understand you are somewhat an expert at that as well as muslim demography? wow.
he's from American we know everything. you are from france you know nothing. back to your corner don't type until you are addressed.
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That's what i thought too ;)
I also have a hint that lazs's source doesn't hold an ethnology degree...
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I think Afghanistan will become the new Northern Ireland for the UK, it will drain resources, need a constant prescence there and will slowlly but surely drain moral and then that's the end game.
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Afghanistan will never become Northern Ireland. There isn't a large section of populace wanting to stay British and there is no great feeling of empathy with the plight of your average Afghani.
It will end in some phased pullout in a couple of years - the country was too much trouble to hold a couple of hundred years ago and not much has changed.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Afghanistan will never become Northern Ireland. There isn't a large section of populace wanting to stay British and there is no great feeling of empathy with the plight of your average Afghani.
It will end in some phased pullout in a couple of years - the country was too much trouble to hold a couple of hundred years ago and not much has changed.
Well of course there's not a large section wanting to remain Britsh as they are Afghani, Actually there is a great feeling of empathy with the plight of your average Afghani, Just not in the places that matter to the International force that is there now.
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Hrmmm...perhaps we should've finished the job there instead of siphoning off our forces elsewhere?
Tronsky
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we have the moral obligation to make an honest attempt to stabilize the region, considering the quagmire curious george and company have fostered to iraqi, it's the least we can do.
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They're not doing much of a job governing the area - the opium harvesting has doubled since Al-qaeda was ruling the country.
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well see.. trotsky believes that with enough force... we can help them.. Not like the backward iraqis.
on the other hand.. dowding believes that they are so backward that they will never want freedom and that we are wasting our time there.
seems that everyone outside the US believes that it is a waste to help one muslim country or another... perhaps we should have taken a vote so that we could know who were the good, worthwhile muslims.
lazs
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Your logic there astounds, lasz.
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then perhaps you can weigh in thrawn.. which are the good muslim and which are the backward ones?
lazs
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Hrmmm...perhaps we should've finished the job there instead of siphoning off our forces elsewhere?
Tronsky
Please define "finished the job".
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my point exactly.
lazs
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History repeating itself!The British have fought 3 Afghan wars.in 1842 a whole army was wiped out at Gandamack,in the second Afghan war in 1880 we lost against the Afghans at the battle of Maiwand,only a few stragglers and a dog escaped.The British realised then the futility of their prescence there
Despite the success of the military venture, by March 1880 even the proponents of the Forward Policy were aware that defeating the Afghan tribes did not mean controlling them. Although British policymakers had briefly thought simply to dismember Afghanistan a few months earlier, they now feared they were heading for the same disasters that befell their predecessors at the time of the First Anglo-Afghan War".
If are soldiers go to Kandahar they will see the Guns captured by the Afghans,in the square,maiwand is legend in Afghanistan and the story is still told!They have kicked us out three times,they kicked the Russians out,and I doubt anythig will be achieved this time.Bush and blair would do well to read history instead of repeating it.
P.s. this Sunday 4 March is the anniversary of the Battle of Bahgdad 1917,where a British army faced an insurgency every bit as vicious as that we face today.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
this Sunday 4 March is the anniversary of the Battle of Bahgdad 1917,where a British army faced an insurgency every bit as vicious as that we face today.
they were supplied arms and cheekboness from Iran back in 1917 too? How bout cell phone activated IEDs? Suicide bombers in chlorine trucks? how about bomb belts?
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
They're not doing much of a job governing the area - the opium harvesting has doubled since Al-qaeda was ruling the country.
We have not right to tell Afganistan you can't grow Opium. Afganistan has the right to grow it, America just said, don't export that to us or our allies. They are however starting to grow other crops now. Actually you should be proud that the opium harvesting has doubled because then that shows that we are making a difference in there country. Opium is not a bad plant, its just bad in the hands of an American teenager at a collage party drinking beer.
America has now fought two enemies that couldn't be taking. First were the Japanese. No one has ever been able to beat Japan in a war, and America did in WW2. No one was able to defeat Afganistan, even the Russians couldn't until America came after 9/11.
Al-Qaeda and the Taliban may have more troops and weapons now, but there not going to be that great in strenght. There training is basically the same when we invaded Afganistan, and if we crushed them once, we can crush them again even if they out number us.
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It wasn't military might alone that beat the Taleban. It was judicious use of their enemies against them - namely local warlords who are now happily growing and selling opium to a hungry world market.
When you talk about 'beating Afghanistan', it seems to me there is an assumption that it is a fairly homogeneous country like some Western democracy. It clearly isn't - a part of it was beaten, but large tracts of the country are effectively outside of NATO control.
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Originally posted by Dowding
It wasn't military might alone that beat the Taleban. It was judicious use of their enemies against them - namely local warlords who are now happily growing and selling opium to a hungry world market.
When you talk about 'beating Afghanistan', it seems to me there is an assumption that it is a fairly homogeneous country like some Western democracy. It clearly isn't - a part of it was beaten, but large tracts of the country are effectively outside of NATO control.
Ah wait your right. I forgot that we sent in like 3,000 guys to invade Afganistan and we had the Northern Alliance and the tribal war-lords fight with us. But we still came out winning, but we couldn't have done it without the help of the Afgan people.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Please define "finished the job".
Oh...defeating the Taleban, securing the provinces in the south, finishing the rebuilding process, annilating the remaining Al-Qaeda insurgents...that type of thing...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by VooWho
We have not right to tell Afganistan you can't grow Opium. Afganistan has the right to grow it, America just said, don't export that to us or our allies. They are however starting to grow other crops now. Actually you should be proud that the opium harvesting has doubled because then that shows that we are making a difference in there country. Opium is not a bad plant, its just bad in the hands of an American teenager at a collage party drinking beer.
America has now fought two enemies that couldn't be taking. First were the Japanese. No one has ever been able to beat Japan in a war, and America did in WW2. No one was able to defeat Afganistan, even the Russians couldn't until America came after 9/11.
Al-Qaeda and the Taliban may have more troops and weapons now, but there not going to be that great in strenght. There training is basically the same when we invaded Afganistan, and if we crushed them once, we can crush them again even if they out number us.
Opium growth for illegal drug usage is something anyone can say shouldn't be done. Period. As what goes for 'defeating Afghanistan' in which way did you defeat anything? It has no army and Al-qaeda is still freely operating in the area doing guerilla attacks, latest news being against Dick Cheney visiting there. The warlords still rule the country in the old fashion, the western troops are just trying to survive in the middle there.
Or did you mean defeat like Iraq is defeated. I heard a couple years ago (pre attack) that it's a peaceful prospering western civilization at the moment.
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I can't see how NATO can make a lot of headway in Afghanistan as long as the Taleban and AQ are allowed to operate with impunity from their safe havens in Pakistan.
It's shades of the NVA and Cambodia. And we all know how that war ended
Why not break out the B-52s?
Operation Menu 2?
It wouldn't stay a secret for long, but it might not take long for the buffs to make a useful impact, and it should work better this time coz I don't think there's much chance of them bombing empty jungle in that part of Pakistan.
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Ok trotsky... finishing the job is just finding or getting all the islamfacist terrorists into one area and slaughtering as many of em as you can while at the same time keeping too busy to come to your country and cause grief?
We can do that in any muslim, middle eastern country.. I bigger one with better terrain would be better tho. Something more flat... It would help if it had some resourse that was worth protecting like... I don't know... say a large part of the worlds oil supply or something...
lazs
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Well Afghanistans not in the middle east, and the idea was to defeat the enemy there - not just racking up kills in a civil war somewhere else.
I thought finishing the job was only having to risk our diggers as little as possible - not continuingly redeploying because everytime we move out - they move back in...we already tried that in the 1960's and it didn't turn out that well.
Tronsky
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You know, I have a feeling that we still be debating this country in the next 10 years or so, I just don't see any end in sight.
You get a mission- you do mission- you go home
Here, it's looking more and more like some form of backing up local forces, losing a few of our guys every week/month and the cycle continues, new govts are elected and we are still there, doing the same thing day after day after day.
One day, some form of peace accord will be signed, the Taliban guys will be brought into some new provisional govt, given the usual diplomatic passports etc and then start making cash quickly, meanwhile back at the ranch, there's a bunch of ex Soldiers walking around asking "wtf was that all about"
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why grab the bull by the horns when you can throw a yoke on it to pull your wagon.
legalize the opiate trade to cut off the taliban's funding, use the taxes to fund the core programs already in place, build up the infrastructure, governance and the police/military.
pavement and power-lines are weapons of longevity against the taliban in afghanistan.
there is no sordid history unlike in iraq so a genuine popular support for the troops is there. if the troops can give the afghans a tangible opportunity to improve their standard of living, once they taste that the taliban will be marginalized to a nonexistence status.
just kept curious george and the three canards out of it.
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Originally posted by Pei
to Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6396001.stm)
There are rumours of a Spring offensive already.
i think the spring offensive is going to be a 2 pronged assault into iran.
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i think WhiteHawk is wrong.
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Originally posted by lazs2
then perhaps you can weigh in thrawn.. which are the good muslim and which are the backward ones?
lazs
they are only backwards because they are bombed by us so much.
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Mind bendingly pertinent, that.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
i think the spring offensive is going to be a 2 pronged assault into iran.
which would be followed by Iran invading BOTH Afghanistan and Iraq.
Not smart.
a few million troops vs our 150'000, would be like the Redcoats vs the Zulu's......
Iran vs Afghanistan would probably collapse rather fast due to terrain favoring Irans troop movements.
Iran vs Iraq would be like the Gulfwar 1980s to 1990s.... hard and bloody with no end in sight. Attrition would mean a net loss to the "allies" as we would soon run out of troops.
Not to mention that both Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT safe bases to launch from anyway... Both are still in resistance and any war lauched from these countries would cause the resistance to increase, and supply lines will be at major risk.
Unless Both US and UK start consription, there isnt any way we will have enough troops to do anything to Iran.
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"they are only backwards because they are bombed by us so much."
I see.. But since we pay them enormous sums of money for opium and oil.... literaly..kings ransoms every year.. it must come out a wash.
They have tons of money but they have a 9th century religion of intolerance. It's a wash... it makes em spend all their money on weapons.
lazs
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Opium growth for illegal drug usage is something anyone can say shouldn't be done. Period. As what goes for 'defeating Afghanistan' in which way did you defeat anything? It has no army and Al-qaeda is still freely operating in the area doing guerilla attacks, latest news being against Dick Cheney visiting there. The warlords still rule the country in the old fashion, the western troops are just trying to survive in the middle there.
Or did you mean defeat like Iraq is defeated. I heard a couple years ago (pre attack) that it's a peaceful prospering western civilization at the moment.
I guess you didn't see my repost to Dowding. I forgot that we only sent like 3,000 troops to invade Afganistan, and we used the Northern Alliance and tribal war-lords to help us fight Al Q.
Also to note, Mr. Cheney wasn't in Afganistan when the bomb went off near him, it was in Pakistan. Afganistan is harder to defend from the locals that know there country like the Indians did in the great Americas. In Afganistan remember theres caves, snowy mountains, and steep valleys. Hard terrian that is very hot during the day and very cold during the night.
Yes I agree with you that growing Opium for illegal drug selling is bad, but I'm saying we can't tell Afganistan you can't grow this crop or else we will burn your fields. All we can do is tell them, we don't like your crop because in our country its illegal. They say "Oh okay, but this is how I support my family." Its not up to us to stop the growth of Opium production, its up to the Afganistan government. I don't see a sudden stop to the production of Opium in the region. Its like Bolivia and growing (I can't remember). America has asked them to limit the sell and production of the crop, but Bolivian government ignores us because that is how there people make money.
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Originally posted by Anyone
a few million troops vs our 150'000, would be like the Redcoats vs the Zulu's......
what history class did you sleep through? the British defeated the Zulus.
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Originally posted by lazs2
They have tons of money but they have a 9th century religion of intolerance. It's a wash... it makes em spend all their money on weapons.
lazs
isn't it up to them what they do religion/government wise??? Why is the United states pushing so hard for democracies everywhere.... its almost like the Soviet union and its Communist puppets everywhere.
and anyway when they do spend there money, We bomb back a few hundred years.....Iraq being the main one here.... Israel bomb them when they make a nuclear power plant... we bomb them every few years since the 90s and flatten there cities.
Then you have Lebanon.... A peaceful, democratic state, with modern sky-rises and clean water etc etc.... but Israel flattens it because terrorists live there? How is that helping?
Afghanistan and Northern pakistan was the only two areas that really needed attention when it comes to the "War on Terror".
Pakistan has tried to sort itself out..... however we left the job half finished with Afghanistan, and decided to cause more trouble and stretch ourselves into Iraq as well.. smart.
Foriegn Policy by USA and its puppets Israel and UK really needs a looking at.
Originally posted by john9001
what history class did you sleep through? the British defeated the Zulus.
yes, but at great costs......
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There are many modern muslim countries.
Egypt
United Arab Emirets
Kuwait
Suadi Arabia
Turkey
Qatar
Jordan
Algeria
Tunisia
Bahrain
Libya
Morocco
Oman
Syria
Lebanon
Iran
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"isn't it up to them what they do religion/government wise??? Why is the United states pushing so hard for democracies everywhere.... its almost like the Soviet union and its Communist puppets everywhere."
You obviously need to crack open a book on world history post 1945...I will leave it at that.
"and anyway when they do spend there money, We bomb back a few hundred years.....Iraq being the main one here.... Israel bomb them when they make a nuclear power plant... we bomb them every few years since the 90s and flatten there cities."
Darn, those Iraqis spent good money on that nuclear reactor prior to the war with Iran? shame we couldnt have had Hussein with the bomb, after all, like you said, all that "good money wasted"....you sound like a capitalist? hope thats not true....personally I think the 1991 Gulf War would have been a lot more "fun" with a nuclear Iraq.
"Then you have Lebanon.... A peaceful, democratic state, with modern sky-rises and clean water etc etc.... but Israel flattens it because terrorists live there? How is that helping?"
Ask the PLO and Hezbollah how its helping. It isnt helping, but then they really dont give a s*** either?
"Afghanistan and Northern pakistan was the only two areas that really needed attention when it comes to the "War on Terror"."
Why, I thought the USA and its puppets didn't count? you mean we *should* ignore terror cells in the rest of the world? isnt that too "USA centric" for you? I guess the Russians shouldnt care about Beslan or the Spanish about the Madrid bombings...after all, they are just Euros...
"Pakistan has tried to sort itself out..... however we left the job half finished with Afghanistan, and decided to cause more trouble and stretch ourselves into Iraq as well.. smart."
We didnt "cause more trouble". Stop blaming the west for all your perceived injustices.
"Foriegn Policy by USA and its puppets Israel and UK really needs a looking at."
So look....
...How I long for a world where China and Iran are the two remaining super powers...as we all must? .
;)
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The more organized islamofacists become the easier it is to dispatch larger numbers of them. We're doing them a favor right? Seventy two virgins and all.
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #4, #5