Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ghastly on March 02, 2007, 09:25:42 AM
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I know that Skuzzy is in the process of rewriting the web scores "stuff", and that HTC will do whatever they think is best, but given all the recent discussion where scoring has been a factor in the topic under discussion, thought I throw this one up for discussion. What particular information would you find useful to have in scoring, ranking and stats?
I'll start....
I tend to fly fighter combat, and pretty much that only. The ground war doesn't really interest me, GV's don't interest me, and what does interest me is relative skill level in air to air combat. Note I don't say "dogfighting skills", because to me the guy who picks his engagements wisely is a much "better" player than someone who can outfly him 1v1 but dies every sortie.
Because of how I play the game at this point:
Scoring (the accumulation of scoring points ) doesn't really impact me, as far as I'm concerned it's a way for the game designer to provide another avenue of interest for some players beyond the actual mechanics of game play. To the extent that it accomplishes that goal - draws or increases interest in the game from players so that more play, and that those play, play more - whatever makes sense to the developer is fine with me and makes it a "success".
Ranking is almost the same as well. Especially in a "mixed arm" sim, it provides little insight (to me at least, your opinion may differ) into relative skill levels, so in the same way as scoring it doesn't really impact me either, and once again I see it also primarily as a way for the game designer to provide another avenue of interest in playing for some players.
The exception being that in AH the higher ranked player can take control of the CV, which is of potentially arguable merit. If it wern't subject to gaming, a higher ranking given how HTC calculates it would tend to indicate who is probably a "better" overall player (again, setting aside the issues of gaming rank), so to my way of thinking it has merit, but I know others disagree.
Stats is what I like, and ideally, the more information the better. I like to know who I killed and what they were flying when I did so and what I was flying. Same when I died. I like most of the current scoring and extended scoring stats, and I like the totals for kills and deaths in aircraft on a per player basis, although I'd like to see every death shown - not just those where an enemy damaged your aircraft. Given the incorporation of aircraft ENY into the game, I'd be very much interested in seeing an ENY adjusted K/d ratio, as well as perhaps kills/hour and kills/sortie if a sensible adjustment were to be devised. This is something that's always been difficult to judge everywhere else - a player who consistently does well in the "lesser" rides may appear to be a poorer pilot than someone who never flies anything but the best available, and yet in reality be a much more formidable opponent. AH has a builtin mechanism already in place that might make it easier to "drill down" past that limitation.
I like to feel that I'm constantly improving my skill in the niche where I enjoy playing, and to the extent that I can confirm - or deny - that I'm doing so, I find the stats and scoring to be one of the useful tools.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
I'll start....
I tend to fly fighter combat, and pretty much that only. The ground war doesn't really interest me, GV's don't interest me, and what does interest me is relative skill level in air to air combat. Note I don't say "dogfighting skills", because to me the guy who picks his engagements wisely is a much "better" player than someone who can outfly him 1v1 but dies every sortie.
See, here's the issue. I disagree with much of what you've said above. To me, dogfighting skills are my primary goal. I often take off or put myself at a disadvantage just to improve those skills. I don't fly around, typically, at 20K and pick the edges or only pick advantageous fights. And I certainly don't fly with a wingman or a squad.
I'll also "sacrifice" my kill or sortie/ratio to save/take a base. I can make an argument that the way the game is set up, currently, land grabbing/defending is the primary goal. Players who don't realize this are not the 'better' players according to this line of thought.
HOWEVER, and my point is this, neither of us are "correct" to the exclusion of the other. There are many different ways to play this game. As such, I don't think the scoring system overall is a big concern to you or I.
I agree with more stats per engagement. How about we add to your list things like relative E (alt + speed) and ratio of friendly/enemy aircraft at the time of engagement? I hear the argument that this or that is a dweeb plane, coming from the guy diving in from 20K with his wingman and/or squadies in formation attacking with odds heavily in their favor. Can't those tactics be considered dweeb tactics as well? I'm not trying to start an individual versus team debate here other than to state that BOTH viewpoints exist. We all pay our money to play in whichever manner yields the most satisfaction.
Anyway, I respectfully submit this point of view in hopes that we can measure as many factors as possible, so that each style of play can be measured according to the criteria of that player.
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A Dweeb rating column
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A raming colum to see how many times dweebs ram you:aok
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Who cares about score I think you should get rid of the whole scoring thing because all it creates is milk runners.
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(In response to BlackDog68) I agree - neither of us is necessarily wrong or right, we simply value different things differently. And a great scoring system would one that allows both of us (and others) to extract the components that we value and "evaluate them" in ways meaningful to us.
I'd no doubt score "poorly" on your dogfighting scale, you'd score "poorly" on my scale. Which would be how it should be.
Collisions with another aircraft are another category of stats that I hadn't thought of including because they don't apply to me often. Ground collisons on the other hand .... a category for those would be useful at times too.
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Pawz, any online game that didn't have any scoring and ranking stats would - at least in my opinion - have a hard time holding the interest of a significant portion of the player base. Less players wouldn't benefit HTC, or the rest of us.
IMHO of course.
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Originally posted by Pawz
Who cares about score I think you should get rid of the whole scoring thing because all it creates is milk runners.
:huh Scores...no matter how little they mean in the overall scope of things are needed to keep (x) % of the player base active. Scores are cool as long as you keep it all in perspective.
Not to mention, Milkrunners are tasty treats.:t
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A fun indicator.
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As Ghastly mentioned, I would like a complete list of who I shot down. Sometimes I like to check the stats of the guy I got, but can't exactly remember his ID.
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Originally posted by Bucky73
A Dweeb rating column
WOOHOOO a chance for me to be number 1 at something *passes out cigars and shots
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Originally posted by Dichotomy
WOOHOOO a chance for me to be number 1 at something *passes out cigars and shots
:rofl Just don't spill the shot glasses this time!
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Originally posted by Target2
As Ghastly mentioned, I would like a complete list of who I shot down. Sometimes I like to check the stats of the guy I got, but can't exactly remember his ID.
If you ever happen across me, BE WARNED. Do NOT look up my stats after shooting me. You might not survive....
... the HORROR.
:D
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Given the incorporation of aircraft ENY into the game, I'd be very much interested in seeing an ENY adjusted K/d ratio,
Seems your really talking about using perks earned as a basis for score........
I would agree with this............
I have just said the same elsewhere but it seems to me that
Fighter, Attack, Bombing, Gv scores can all be based upon perks earned and averaged to a perks earned per mission..............
I would like to see separate perks for attack stuff for many other reasons
but once done and melded into a perks earned per mission you then end up with a score that has taken into account ENY.
Equally you have Fighter, Attack,Bomber, Gv and totalled average scores.
This score system will reward players who excel in less uber ac or who fly for minority sides........it encourages balance in game play at both arena and local levels.
To focus and simplify this even more I would modify the attaboys to require a perk threshold of 2 perk points and 2 kills to get a system announcement.
The system would just look at perks earned. It would not look at perks lost or spent. Players should not be score penalised for spending their winnings.
Apart from scores I do not see why the FE cant hold a list of the last # to be shot down or the last # to have shot me down.
Accessable form a button in the tower or OC.
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You are right - and What I like about that idea Tilt is that it takes into account the arena numbers and "general conditions", which nothing else really does. And when numbers are way off, it can make a huge difference in terms of what you can and cannot accomplish, which would be reflected in perks attained.
Some combination of perks earned per death, perks earned per sortie, and perks earned per kill would probably be a pretty darn useful number for evaluating relative skill levels.
Good thinking.
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Get rid of scores/rank completely and see what happens when poeple aren't worried about it any more.
:)
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Get rid of scores/rank completely and see what happens when poeple aren't worried about it any more.
:)
I agree.
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I dont care what happens to the score system.. it will never be able to accurately determine who the best bombers, fighters, attackers, gv'ers or squads are. personally i'd like to see more events to determine stuff like this.. IE tournaments and such..
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SCORES!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
WTF ARE SCORES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
:huh
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Originally posted by Hoarach
SCORES!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
WTF ARE SCORES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
:huh
Score with a chick?:huh
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Steve, for me the point isn't to determine which single player is best - that's much to subjective of a determination. For me, a good scoring is system is one I can use as a "measuring stick" - a standard that let's me evaluate my own flying.
Edit-> And while tournies and events and whatnot are very very cool, they don't capture the essense of general game play, so they don't generally help in the manner that I use scoring/stats for, at any rate.
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Would anyone wish to have my current Fighter Rank? I can call HTC and see if they'll switch.
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At first, I was thinking how cool it would be if a person could give perk points to another member. This way, a squadron could take a newer player under it's wing and ensure that he could fly a perked ride if that's what was called for at a squadron event.
And then I realized what kinds of things could (and probably would!) be done...
Can anyone think of an adequate safeguard that would prevent abuse but would still allow one squad member to gift another squad member some perk points?
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Give them your account info and log off.
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Death stats, in regards to how I died. Something like
- exploded or shot down
- collided
- ground fire
- air to air etc etc
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OH, and make support activity profitable score-wise. Supply runs now dilute your per sortie stats and that always seemed odd to me.
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i would like to see kills not counted within a circle around bases and spawn points.. this will have many effects.
1. it will dissuade people with duel accounts from racking up scores.
2 it will stop the vulch hoards who don't want to capture fields
3 stop spawn camping.. the thing i hate most..
also only show the scores once per week..
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"Note I don't say "dogfighting skills", because to me the guy who picks his engagements wisely is a much "better" player than someone who can outfly him 1v1 but dies every sortie. "
To be honest, I am one of those people that goes out and dies alot. But thats for the MA. I save the flying safe stuff for events. I get bored being careful all the time. I think most people would rather come across the "better" players, than the latter. If you fight people and find you die regularly to them, except when they are ganged or picked, it doesnt neccessarily make you a better player.
And quite frankly, the careful player really lacks the aggressive behavior that is rewarded in here. Without learning from dying in all the different situations that arise, the player will never truly be all that great.
My uncle was a CV pilot in the Navy back in the 60s. He started playing some air sim games and I'd watch how he went about it. He flew as if his life depended on it. It retarded his gameplay. In real life I'd want him flying the plane for me, but in a video game, he sucked.
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Originally posted by Zanth
OH, and make support activity profitable score-wise. Supply runs now dilute your per sortie stats and that always seemed odd to me.
Good idea. Separate "combat sorties" and "total sorties." Upping a plane would count toward your total sorties as they do now. But it would only count as a "combat sortie" if any of the following occurs:
1. Fires a weapon
2. Drops ordinance (troops would be counted as ord, sups not)
3. Is hit by weapons fire (player fire of any kind or AI ack).
So, your basic M-3 or C-47 cargo runs to bring up a base would not count as a combat sortie. Neither would the times you accidentally start on the wrong field or in the wrong aircraft or wrong load-out or hit wrong spawn direction, and go immediately to tower after realizing your mistake.
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An inebriation multiplier. It would be based on drinks per hour and apply to both points and perks. This would reward those that accept the challenge of flying impaired. A new category could be created for the most "sobriety challenged".
The multiplier could also be used in other ways: No control of CV with multiplier of 5 or above, disable all outbound vox capabilities at 6, auto landing enabled at 7, and at 8 the screen could go all swirly just to mess with your head.
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Too much concern for scores.
If you fly fighters only, then only worry about your fighter score, if you feel compelled to consider score at all.
I'd love to see a 5 minute penalty for being shot down. Have to sit in the tower :)
I think last month I'd have to sit out about 2000 minutes :)
Of course, many would log off. But imagine, if you had one life as in the war, how much the game would change. We have KOTH - it provides quite an interesting strategy, quite different from the game.
If you've been shot down more than a couple times, score is really meaningless. You'd be dead.
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Fighter
Bomber
Attack
PT
GV
All of these categories have sub-categories and each sub-category must be optimised to score well within the parent category. Parent categories make up the Overall Score. Individual skill within a category helps to enhance overall score. Overall score does not reflect individual skill within a category.
Skill is understanding and optimising the above to one's advantage.
Just thoughts...
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Based on the KISS principal.
I'd like to see stats and rank split apart: base rank on kills & damage per death, per hour and per sortie only, and get rid of the combined rank thing. Keep the other stats but don't include them in the ranking - they are useful in tracking personal progress in the game but otherwise are fluff and open the door for gaming the scoring system and that makes the system as it is now virtually useless in determining who is and who isn't any good at the game.
my $0.02
asw
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Having thought further I think perks earned per death in each category would be sufficient for pointage.
I still believe that categories should be
Fighter
Attack
Bomber
GV/Boat/Gunner
Stats such as kills,deaths,landings,ditches,bails are still interesting. (plus some ratios derived from them)
Last 20 victims & last 20 victors may be entertaining
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Originally posted by Tilt
Having thought further I think perks earned per death in each category would be sufficient for pointage.
I still believe that categories should be
Fighter
Attack
Bomber
GV/Boat/Gunner
Stats such as kills,deaths,landings,ditches,bails are still interesting. (plus some ratios derived from them)
Last 20 victims & last 20 victors may be entertaining
Even better.:aok
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Being able to see the top 10 or 20 players in any given subcategory might be enlightening, as well as being able to see your most common victims and victors. It would certainly make witchhunts a lot easier. :)
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I'd like to see proxy kills go away, and a catagory for collisions, ones that are your fault and ones that are the other flyers fault,
score really means very little, but everyone seems to track it,so i guess it does mean something.
and i like the idea of a time penalty for getting killed, maybe if you had to fly 3 sorties in a different ride b4 you could go back to the one you got killed in.
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i wish they would include theENY into this. Like you get something for killing low ENY planes with a high ENY plane.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
I'd like to see proxy kills go away, and a catagory for collisions, ones that are your fault and ones that are the other flyers fault,
Exactly how are you going to determine who's "fault" it is?
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Originally posted by 68slayr
i wish they would include theENY into this. Like you get something for killing low ENY planes with a high ENY plane.
Points, not to be confused with perks, are determined this way already, IINM.
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Leave it basically as is but add a couple of modifyers.
The more "good" guys you shoot down the better you are vs. the more "bad" guys you shoot down the worse you are. Sort of like ENY applied to players based on ranks at that time.
Another modifyer might be an odds modifyer. The heavier the odds against you the higher the score, the bigger the hoard you fly with the lower the score.
Personally, I'd probably lose on the players modifyer but gain on the odds modifyer.
Of course you can't apply this to toolshedders because the odds are always against them :lol
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Get rid of scores/rank completely and see what happens when poeple aren't worried about it any more.
:)
They'll do EXACTLY as they do now but even more so. Pork auger, bomb an bail, HO from the get go, low lancs at 10 paces on any structure or CV and fly the fastest thing there is. So they can run like hell when the going looks anywhere near, you guest it, even.
ANY score system can be manipulated and I believe the one we have is designed on the principle of, forgive the word, "surviving" each sortie.
Answering the question put. I could only think of adding novelties. List of last 20 victims or extra points for shooting a guy down with lots of kills. Perhaps an instant on screen message. "Johnnycomelatly" just shot down "Vulchingcherrypickingtoerag" with 8 kills or what ever the kill count was.
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Originally posted by E25280
Exactly how are you going to determine who's "fault" it is?
I could be wrong here, but i do think when It says you have collided with so n so, or it says so n so collided with you, the system does know who collided.
best to stay out of ho situations i guess.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
I could be wrong here, but i do think when It says you have collided with so n so, or it says so n so collided with you, the system does know who collided.
best to stay out of ho situations i guess.
Please do a search on collisions. I will not re-hash it all here as I do not want to hijack the thread. Suffice it to say that the "collision model" is a no-fault system -- that is, the system does not assign blame -- you simply either collide or you don't.
Do a search, and if you have any questions, feel free to PM me or post in one of those threads so we don't pull this one off course. :aok
Here is one of the more recent threads that may help - long read but I think it is all in here. (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199235)
If nothing else, you will see why it will become a hijack if we get too deep into it.>
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Either remove the scores all together or atleast take EW and MW out of the rank/score thing.
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Im not a fan of the score system. But too many people are to just not have it. It is a game. Games need scores.But too often its comparing Nigerian blood pears to Gui Gui breadfruit.
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handicapping.
yep. i said it.
and i'll say it again.
handicapping.
;)
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Just thought of something that would be neat. Under community / score/ Expanded format. Have a list of types of planes a certain type you used killed / killed in
Like this---> Lynx spit16 kills loses TOD (what ever)
+Victories+
A6m x 15
b24 x 67
190a8 x 36
262 x 1
la7 x76
nik x 45
typh x 35
temp x 3
+Lost to+
A6m x 3
B24 x 5
190 x 6
262 x 0
la7x 9
nik x 8
typh x 4
temp x 1
You get the idea. The one we have now isn't so detailed without doing all types, type by type:aok :
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I really think for 95% of the people here scoring really means nothing...unless its with the blonde with big guns!
I think even a guy like Shawk could care less.
Rank only feeds the ego..a few guys here will cram their ego's in the cockpit verses take a parachute ..perhaps this is good for the imature or very young players the 12-13 year olds..who you constantly hear "did I do Good" "did I do Good"....game would be fine with out Rank Period.
999000
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seperate rank for each arena. stop the porkers hitting undefended bases in EW for impressive rank in LW. who they crappin anyways...?
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Originally posted by FTDEEP
seperate rank for each arena. stop the porkers hitting undefended bases in EW for impressive rank in LW. who they crappin anyways...?
Actually thats not a bad idea
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JB88, what do you mean by handicapping? Do you mean something like "perks earned per (some metric)" or something else?